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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Hell: Be afraid, "Islamic State"
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
I'm not sure that there's any debate about whether soldiers can be Christians. I believe that Church history is divided on whether Christians can be soldiers.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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deano
princess
# 12063
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
quote:
Originally posted by deano:
Hah! My finest hour!
I am absolutely sure it was, and you have done nothing of any worth ever since. Certainly not here.
Tell you what: there are an estimated 30,000 IS activists in Syria and Iraq. I will personally pay for you to fly to Turkey, arrange land transport to the Syrian border, whereupon you can spit in as many jihadis' coffee cups as you can find.
But don't let them see you do it. Heaven forfend the consequences.
Why would I want to do that? I already pay for those Trident D5's. I'd rather have one of them fly to Syria direct and land right on top of those jihadis. That's better.
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"The moral high ground is slowly being bombed to oblivion. " - Supermatelot
Posts: 2118 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: Nov 2006
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by deano:
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
quote:
Originally posted by deano:
Hah! My finest hour!
I am absolutely sure it was, and you have done nothing of any worth ever since. Certainly not here.
Tell you what: there are an estimated 30,000 IS activists in Syria and Iraq. I will personally pay for you to fly to Turkey, arrange land transport to the Syrian border, whereupon you can spit in as many jihadis' coffee cups as you can find.
But don't let them see you do it. Heaven forfend the consequences.
Why would I want to do that? I already pay for those Trident D5's. I'd rather have one of them fly to Syria direct and land right on top of those jihadis. That's better.
Brave Sir deano ran away.
Bravely ran away away.
When danger reared it's ugly head,
He bravely turned his tail and fled.
Yes, brave Sir deano turned about
And gallantly he chickened out.
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Forward the New Republic
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
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Matt Black
Shipmate
# 2210
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Posted
Has he personally wet himself though? Enquiring minds...
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"Protestant and Reformed, according to the Tradition of the ancient Catholic Church" - + John Cosin (1594-1672)
Posts: 14304 | From: Hampshire, UK | Registered: Jan 2002
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
Apart from deano's nuclear option, an obvious strategy is now opening up for Obama (even if he thinks he doesn't have one) and other Western leaders.
There are 3 obvious prongs:
1. Help those forces currently fighting IS, to remove their bases and supply lines.
2. Help the unity government in Iraq, especially to inform various Sunni leaders, that the govt. are no longer interested in imprisoning thousands of Sunni tribesmen and fighters.
3. Put out feelers to tribal leaders who are reported to be cooling off IS, and want a way out. Some of them fought against AQ before, so they will be keen to separate from IS, given enough encouragement and inducements.
This applies to Iraq; the situation in Syria is more chaotic.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Evensong. I salute you.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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deano
princess
# 12063
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
Evensong. I salute you.
That comes as no surprise seeing as you share the view that soldiers cannot be Christians as well.
Have you told your mates in the SAS of your views, or is that something you don't wish to burden them with?
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"The moral high ground is slowly being bombed to oblivion. " - Supermatelot
Posts: 2118 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: Nov 2006
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by deano:
quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
Evensong. I salute you.
That comes as no surprise seeing as you share the view that soldiers cannot be Christians as well.
Have you told your mates in the SAS of your views, or is that something you don't wish to burden them with?
Are you aware that soldiers could not be baptised in the early church?
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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
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deano
princess
# 12063
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by deano:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by deano:
quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
Evensong. I salute you.
That comes as no surprise seeing as you share the view that soldiers cannot be Christians as well.
Have you told your mates in the SAS of your views, or is that something you don't wish to burden them with?
Are you aware that soldiers could not be baptised in the early church?
Are you aware that I don't give a fuck you patronising twat?
Are you, evensong and martin advocating not allowing soldiers (former or serving) from taking Communion? It sounds like it.
Soldiers protect our freedoms including the freedom to pontificate from the safety of 21st Century Western democracies, and if a soldier says "I am a Christian" then neither you, nor evensong, nor martin nor whoever in the early church have any right to deny them their faith.
I see no distinction between those who would deny a soldier his Christianity because he is (or has been) a soldier, and those jihadi's who murder Christians unless they convert to islam. Both are forcibly removing the right of someone to practice their faith as they wish.
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"The moral high ground is slowly being bombed to oblivion. " - Supermatelot
Posts: 2118 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: Nov 2006
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by deano:
quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
Evensong. I salute you.
That comes as no surprise seeing as you share the view that soldiers cannot be Christians as well.
Have you told your mates in the SAS of your views, or is that something you don't wish to burden them with?
Are you aware that soldiers could not be baptised in the early church?
Was that because of the church or the Roman authorities? I have read that the Theban legion converted to Christian in the late 3rd century and a few years later was successively decimated so that none of it remained.
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by deano:
Soldiers protect our freedoms
Sorry, but this rarely applies. When we think of WWII, we get the warm fuzzies, handing Fritz and Tojo their arses. We sometimes think of the Falklands, rescuing the islanders from servitude under Jonny Dago.
Things get more problematic with WWI - fighting the Boche, yes, but imperial European powers slugging it out across a hundred yards of Belgian field. The Boer War? Concentration camps? The Sudan, massacring the natives with machine guns? The Suez Crisis? Afghanistan? Iraq?
Soldiers protect the national interest, whatever the politicians of the day decide that is. The soldiers don't get to choose.
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Forward the New Republic
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
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deano
princess
# 12063
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
quote:
Originally posted by deano:
Soldiers protect our freedoms
Sorry, but this rarely applies. When we think of WWII, we get the warm fuzzies, handing Fritz and Tojo their arses. We sometimes think of the Falklands, rescuing the islanders from servitude under Jonny Dago.
Things get more problematic with WWI - fighting the Boche, yes, but imperial European powers slugging it out across a hundred yards of Belgian field. The Boer War? Concentration camps? The Sudan, massacring the natives with machine guns? The Suez Crisis? Afghanistan? Iraq?
Soldiers protect the national interest, whatever the politicians of the day decide that is. The soldiers don't get to choose.
Be that as it may, is it right to deny Communion to soldiers who identify as Christians, which is what Martin, Evensong et al would have happen? All in the name of "theory" or early church dogma!
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"The moral high ground is slowly being bombed to oblivion. " - Supermatelot
Posts: 2118 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: Nov 2006
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by deano:
Be that as it may, is it right to deny Communion to soldiers who identify as Christians, which is what Martin, Evensong et al would have happen? All in the name of "theory" or early church dogma!
Except they haven't said anything of the sort. Making crap up and putting it in the mouths of people (geez, even Evensong counts as "people") is the tactic of a retarded fuckwit who forgets this is a text-based messageboard and we all have scrollwheels. ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
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Forward the New Republic
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
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IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
Are you aware that soldiers could not be baptised in the early church?
I'm not aware of that. Both St Peter at Caesarea and St Paul at Philippi baptised military men, about 40-50 AD. The next evidence we have is of the Christian Twelfth Legion that fought in the Marcomannic Wars (from 166 AD) under Marcus Aurelius. At most then, there is a gap of about 120 years where we have no direct evidence, but wherein we go from a few soldiers being baptised to (at least!) one entire legion of Christians soldiers. I'm aware of some Church Fathers commenting, but it is only a few and their position is hardly a simple "no baptism for soldiers", see the discussion here. In fact, the clearest words from Tertullian come after he has become a heretic Montanist, and before he appears to consider the existence of Christian soldiers as a matter of course. So given all this, I would be surprised if there was any clear historical evidence for a denial of baptism to soldiers in the early church. Feel free to surprise me though...
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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Martin would happily crawl under fire to share communion with any soldier. And bring up ammunition. Which is why I'm NOT a padre.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Evensong
Shipmate
# 14696
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
(geez, even Evensong counts as "people")
Oh the charity! The charity! ![[Axe murder]](graemlins/lovedrops.gif)
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a theological scrapbook
Posts: 9481 | From: Australia | Registered: Apr 2009
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deano
princess
# 12063
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
Martin would happily crawl under fire to share communion with any soldier. And bring up ammunition. Which is why I'm NOT a padre.
And yet we still have this in Oblivion...
The first time Martin denied soldiers the right to be Christian
If you are backtracking from your position of 22 months ago then fine, but you need to be clear about that.
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"The moral high ground is slowly being bombed to oblivion. " - Supermatelot
Posts: 2118 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: Nov 2006
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Ariston
Insane Unicorn
# 10894
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Posted
Wow. Evensong is getting majority support in a Hell thread. Someone's handwaving gambit isn't working.
Will wonders never cease?
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“Therefore, let it be explained that nowhere are the proprieties quite so strictly enforced as in men’s colleges that invite young women guests, especially over-night visitors in the fraternity houses.” Emily Post, 1937.
Posts: 6849 | From: The People's Republic of Balcones | Registered: Jan 2006
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deano
princess
# 12063
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ariston:
Wow. Evensong is getting majority support in a Hell thread. Someone's handwaving gambit isn't working.
Will wonders never cease?
Ha! I suspect most people on the ship are sympathetic to her views on "Christian theory" and not allowing the military to be Christians.
I'm not surprised, just relieved that in the real world people on the ship have no power and no influence. It must be frustrating for you, but it is safer for the rest of us in the long run.
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"The moral high ground is slowly being bombed to oblivion. " - Supermatelot
Posts: 2118 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: Nov 2006
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by deano:
quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
Martin would happily crawl under fire to share communion with any soldier. And bring up ammunition. Which is why I'm NOT a padre.
And yet we still have this in Oblivion...
The first time Martin denied soldiers the right to be Christian
If you are backtracking from your position of 22 months ago then fine, but you need to be clear about that.
Backtracking. Something only ever done by other people, eh deano?
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
(geez, even Evensong counts as "people")
Oh the charity! The charity!
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
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Forward the New Republic
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
And wrong. Wrong to the point of deliberate misunderstanding. I've not changed since then in the slightest. Nothing in ANYTHING I wrote then in context suggests that soldiers cannot be Christian, far from it, there's one who was sitting behind me on Sunday, a lovely bloke with a heartbreakingly lovely family he had to leave behind, a fine Christian, just back from his final tour of Afghanistan.
During Desert Storm there was an astounding BBC reconstruction of a Scud Busting operation (I may WELL have a member in my Friday night flock) in which a trooper who had been hell on wheels one moment, prayed for 'the lads' whilst on lookout for them.
The finest example of Christian soldiers I can think of were the Guards at Dunkirk. Unbelievable courage.
These guys are on the arc, no question. And they MISLED, failed by the Church. Which cannot help it.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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deano
princess
# 12063
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
And wrong. Wrong to the point of deliberate misunderstanding. I've not changed since then in the slightest. Nothing in ANYTHING I wrote then in context suggests that soldiers cannot be Christian, far from it, there's one who was sitting behind me on Sunday, a lovely bloke with a heartbreakingly lovely family he had to leave behind, a fine Christian, just back from his final tour of Afghanistan.
During Desert Storm there was an astounding BBC reconstruction of a Scud Busting operation (I may WELL have a member in my Friday night flock) in which a trooper who had been hell on wheels one moment, prayed for 'the lads' whilst on lookout for them.
The finest example of Christian soldiers I can think of were the Guards at Dunkirk. Unbelievable courage.
These guys are on the arc, no question. And they MISLED, failed by the Church. Which cannot help it.
So you have changed your position. In the thread I linked to above you tell me that I understand your position "just fine"; that is a Christian can only be a pacifist. You wrote it and confirmed it.
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"The moral high ground is slowly being bombed to oblivion. " - Supermatelot
Posts: 2118 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: Nov 2006
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
I did not.
I haven't changed my position in the slightest.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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deano
princess
# 12063
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Posted
Well, the thread is there for people to read and make their own minds up.
Perhaps if you made yourself clearer these issues wouldn't arise.
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"The moral high ground is slowly being bombed to oblivion. " - Supermatelot
Posts: 2118 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: Nov 2006
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Indeed deano and for that I apologize.
I was going to this morning prior to your previous update, but I let you wind me up.
I used the word MUST in terms of the imperative, not the definitive, not exclusive and was in to playing rhetorical hard ball then.
And I apologize for that too.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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jbohn
Shipmate
# 8753
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by deano:
The first time Martin denied soldiers the right to be Christian
Having read the page you linked (why do I do this to myself?), I can't see him saying anything of the sort. Do you have a point, or are you just engaging in your usual dickhead dick-waving?
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We are punished by our sins, not for them.
--Elbert Hubbard
Posts: 989 | From: East of Eden, west of St. Paul | Registered: Nov 2004
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by deano:
quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
Evensong. I salute you.
That comes as no surprise seeing as you share the view that soldiers cannot be Christians as well.
Have you told your mates in the SAS of your views, or is that something you don't wish to burden them with?
Are you aware that soldiers could not be baptised in the early church?
Was that because of the church or the Roman authorities? I have read that the Theban legion converted to Christian in the late 3rd century and a few years later was successively decimated so that none of it remained.
Opinion is divided about the reasons:
some say it was because soldiers killed - that they had to repent and leave the army. Very difficult at that time.
others say that it was because soldiers made oaths and offered sacrifices to statues of the emperor and various (other) Roman gods
If the latter, it would tie in with teachers having to give up their way of life, also actors - because the curriculum and drama dealt with roman gods.
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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
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jbohn
Shipmate
# 8753
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
quote:
Originally posted by jbohn:
(why do I do this to myself?)
It's hard isn't it?
![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
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We are punished by our sins, not for them.
--Elbert Hubbard
Posts: 989 | From: East of Eden, west of St. Paul | Registered: Nov 2004
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
Are you aware that soldiers could not be baptised in the early church?
I'm not aware of that. Both St Peter at Caesarea and St Paul at Philippi baptised military men, about 40-50 AD. The next evidence we have is of the Christian Twelfth Legion that fought in the Marcomannic Wars (from 166 AD) under Marcus Aurelius. At most then, there is a gap of about 120 years where we have no direct evidence, but wherein we go from a few soldiers being baptised to (at least!) one entire legion of Christians soldiers. I'm aware of some Church Fathers commenting, but it is only a few and their position is hardly a simple "no baptism for soldiers", see the discussion here. In fact, the clearest words from Tertullian come after he has become a heretic Montanist, and before he appears to consider the existence of Christian soldiers as a matter of course. So given all this, I would be surprised if there was any clear historical evidence for a denial of baptism to soldiers in the early church. Feel free to surprise me though...
The article you linked to is interesting and shoes that the issue is far from simple. The article is also coming from a particular viewpoint - as am I, from the other direction when I link to:
The Apostolic Tradition of Hippolytus 16:9
and
see Hippolytus and Tertullian on the necessity to repudiate military service before baptism.
There's also Origen (Contra Celsum 8) and even after Constantine, the Council of Nicea 325 ordered that soldiers could be catechumens and attend the ministry of the word but not the communion, before which catechumens were dismissed (see Canon 12)
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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
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IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
The article you linked to is interesting and shoes that the issue is far from simple. The article is also coming from a particular viewpoint - as am I, from the other direction when I link to:
The Apostolic Tradition of Hippolytus 16:9
and
see Hippolytus and Tertullian on the necessity to repudiate military service before baptism. There's also Origen (Contra Celsum 8)
All of these sources admit other interpretations, as pointed out by the article I linked to, and importantly it is evident from the existence of an entire legion of Roman Christian soldiers, 120 years after soldiers were baptised by St Peter and St Paul, that de facto at least there was no binding prohibition against being a Christian and a Roman solider in the early Church - whatever this or that text or authority might have said.
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
and even after Constantine, the Council of Nicea 325 ordered that soldiers could be catechumens and attend the ministry of the word but not the communion, before which catechumens were dismissed (see Canon 12)
That was not a general canon against military service, but rather one aimed at specific, recent circumstances. To quote from relevant commentary:
quote:
LAMBERT
... In his last contests with Constantine, Licinius had made himself the representative of heathenism; so that the final issue of the war would not be the mere triumph of one of the two competitors, but the triumph or fall of Christianity or heathenism. Accordingly, a Christian who had in this war supported the cause of Licinius and of heathenism might be considered as a lapsus, even if he did not formally fall away. With much more reason might those Christians be treated as lapsi who, having conscientiously given up military service (this is meant by the soldier's belt), afterwards retracted their resolution, and went so far as to give money and presents for the sake of readmission, on account of the numerous advantages which military service then afforded. It must not be forgotten that Licinius, as Zonaras and Eusebius relate, required from his soldiers a formal apostasy; compelled them, for example, to take part in the heathen sacrifices which were held in the camps, and dismissed from his service those who would not apostatize.
BRIGHT
This canon (which in the Prisca and the Isidorian version stands as part of canon 11) deals, like it, with cases which had arisen under the Eastern reign of Licinius, who having resolved to "purge his army of all ardent Christians" (Mason, Persec. of Diocl. p. 308), ordered his Christian officers to sacrifice to the gods on pain of being cashiered (compare Euseb. H. E. x. 8; Vit. Con. i. 54). It is to be observed here that military life as such was not deemed unchristian. ... Bingham (Antiq. xi. 5, 10), "the ancient canons did not condemn the military life as a vocation simply unlawful. ... I believe there is no instance of any man being refused baptism merely because he was a soldier, unless some unlawful circumstance, such as idolatry, or the like, made the vocation sinful." ... In the case before us, some Christian officers had at first stood firm under the trial imposed on them by Licinius. ... These men had responded to a Divine impulse: it might seem that they had committed themselves to a noble course: they had cast aside the "belts" which were their badge of office (compare the cases of Valentinian and Valens, Soc. iii. 13, and of Benevoins throwing down his belt at the feet of Justina, Soz. vii. 13). ... but their zeal, unlike [that of Auxentius], proved to be too impulsive--they reconsidered their position, ... by making unworthy attempts--in some cases by bribery--to recover what they had worthily resigned. ...This the Council describes in proverbial language, probably borrowed from 2 Pet. ii. 22, but, it is needless to say, without intending to censure enlistment as such. They now desired to be received to penance: accordingly they were ordered to spend three years as Hearers, during which time "their purpose, and the nature (eidos) of their repentance" were to be carefully "examined." ...
Honestly, to the best of my knowledge there is no indication that the early Church had any systematic prohibition against becoming a (Roman) soldier. In fact, almost amazingly so, given that abuse of Christians was regularly meted out by Roman soldiers, and Roman soldiers potentially had to face idolatrous requests ("worship the emperor") in the form of military commands. I would to the contrary conclude that the tolerance of Christians to this profession in that time is rooted in the NT, in which Roman officers for the most part are displayed in a very positive light.
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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004
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rolyn
Shipmate
# 16840
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Macrina:
I think that what Islam can teach the West, and conversely what the West can teach Islam (once we stop trying to murder each other) is that humans can co-exist peacefully even with differing world views and that people with differing world views are not inherently evil. Though I think we're a long long way from that.
I don't like rolyn's list because it makes some pretty sweeping assumptions about Islam and the West that make the list invalid.
I did quite like your counter-list though , it made me chuckle .
Sweeping statements and once-an-for-all fixes have been somewhat contagious lately. Probably caught from air-marshall deano with his -- let's carpet-bomb N. Iraq with nukes policy.
My list re. advantages islam may offer was made in haste. Surely trying to find some middle ground is preferable to incinerating each other.
As for pissing ChesterBelloc off by going on about banning all religion , admittedly I was going OTT . However I still maintain that history is full of bloodshed over one person vowing their religion is correct while the other person's is not.
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Change is the only certainty of existence
Posts: 3206 | From: U.K. | Registered: Dec 2011
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
jbohn - I can see how I caused deano to think that's what I meant. Please forgive him on my account.
IngoB - yep. Nice final para.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
I know some Muslim leaders have spoken out against these creeps. (Even Al Qaeda has denounced them.)
Has anyone issued a fatwa? I'm surprised that a guy could appoint himself a caliph, in this day and age, without some sort of religious authorization. So I would think that many leaders aren't happy.
I also find it hilarious that their acronym is the name of a mighty Pagan goddess--from their part of the world, no less
![[Snigger]](graemlins/snigger.gif)
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
I'm surprised that a guy could appoint himself a caliph, in this day and age, without some sort of religious authorization. So I would think that many leaders aren't happy.
I expect it's an 'anointing' ![[Disappointed]](graemlins/disappointed.gif)
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
I mean what do you call religion that requires human sacrifice?
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Evensong
Shipmate
# 14696
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by rolyn:
However I still maintain that history is full of bloodshed over one person vowing their religion is correct while the other person's is not.
You've been gulled by a secular myth.
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a theological scrapbook
Posts: 9481 | From: Australia | Registered: Apr 2009
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Redemptive violence, including the one Jesus fecklessly believed, is a myth.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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rolyn
Shipmate
# 16840
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
You've been gulled by a secular myth
Oh right . And there was me thinking I'd been gulled by a history book of Christianity which suggests more post-Reformation Christians were martyred by each other than by any external agent.
If, as some seem to think, this latest expression of faith in N Iraq is islam's Reformation then heaven help the muslims. They've only got a few more Centuries of bloodshed and ill-will to look forward to . That's if the 500 yr old cafflic/proddy divide, and history of warfare between Christian nations is anything to go by.
Try regarding human violence in pure isolation for a moment . We share the same DNA as bloodthirsty chimps . So that's it, that's all it ever will be -- religion or no religion.
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Change is the only certainty of existence
Posts: 3206 | From: U.K. | Registered: Dec 2011
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QLib
Bad Example
# 43
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
quote:
Originally posted by rolyn:
However I still maintain that history is full of bloodshed over one person vowing their religion is correct while the other person's is not.
You've been gulled by a secular myth.
Oh, I'm so glad that a renowned scholar from the world-famous University of St.Thomas, Minnesota has finally laid this one to rest. Great. Now all we have to do is re-write all the history books.
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Tradition is the handing down of the flame, not the worship of the ashes Gustav Mahler.
Posts: 8913 | From: Page 28 | Registered: May 2001
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ChastMastr
Shipmate
# 716
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
I mean what do you call religion that requires human sacrifice?
Strangely prophetic, even in its malign darkness.
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My essays on comics continuity: http://chastmastr.tumblr.com/tagged/continuity
Posts: 14068 | From: Clearwater, Florida | Registered: Jul 2001
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Evensong
Shipmate
# 14696
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by rolyn:
Oh right . And there was me thinking I'd been gulled by a history book of Christianity which suggests more post-Reformation Christians were martyred by each other than by any external agent.
There are certainly no absence of examples where dying for one's faith is acceptable. The reformation was quite bloody is some parts of Europe. But you're confusing correlation with causation if you think only religion causes violence.
Seeing as how the vast majority of Europe was "religious" for the last how many centuries it's inevitable that some will use the name of religion to champion their cause. It add's to their sense of justified violence.
quote:
Originally posted by rolyn:
If, as some seem to think, this latest expression of faith in N Iraq is islam's Reformation then heaven help the muslims. They've only got a few more Centuries of bloodshed and ill-will to look forward to . That's if the 500 yr old cafflic/proddy divide, and history of warfare between Christian nations is anything to go by.
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Yes true. After that they will simply revert to nationalism or totalitarianism of a difference sort to justify their violence like the secular West does now.
Did you even watch the link I sent? America spends more money on the military than anything else. Violence in the secular state is simply legitimised in a different way. "Peacekeeping" is popular. The religion of Capitalism and economic interest is more real.
We in the west are happy to bomb people into democracy when it suits our economic interests.
quote:
Originally posted by rolyn:
Try regarding human violence in pure isolation for a moment . We share the same DNA as bloodthirsty chimps . So that's it, that's all it ever will be -- religion or no religion.
Now you're hitting the mark. We justify violence on many grounds. But it's still violence. Most of it is based on power and land and resources. It seems to be the human condition.
But Christ offers us a different way. A damn hard one in this broken and fallen world yet still.
History does not detail the wars and conflicts avoided by those that prefer the Way. So you won't hear about them much.
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a theological scrapbook
Posts: 9481 | From: Australia | Registered: Apr 2009
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Evensong
Shipmate
# 14696
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by QLib:
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
quote:
Originally posted by rolyn:
However I still maintain that history is full of bloodshed over one person vowing their religion is correct while the other person's is not.
You've been gulled by a secular myth.
Oh, I'm so glad that a renowned scholar from the world-famous University of St.Thomas, Minnesota has finally laid this one to rest. Great. Now all we have to do is re-write all the history books.
Can't attack the argument so attack the credentials? How very ad hominem.
Poor form. Use that clever and thoughtful mind you have.
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a theological scrapbook
Posts: 9481 | From: Australia | Registered: Apr 2009
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
quote:
Originally posted by QLib:
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
quote:
Originally posted by rolyn:
However I still maintain that history is full of bloodshed over one person vowing their religion is correct while the other person's is not.
You've been gulled by a secular myth.
Oh, I'm so glad that a renowned scholar from the world-famous University of St.Thomas, Minnesota has finally laid this one to rest. Great. Now all we have to do is re-write all the history books.
Can't attack the argument so attack the credentials? How very ad hominem.
How very normal. Haven't you been to a court of law? It might be bad manners but attacking the credibility of the witness happens there. IMHO Purgatory is kind and considerate by comparison.
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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Evensong
Shipmate
# 14696
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
How very normal. Haven't you been to a court of law? It might be bad manners but attacking the credibility of the witness happens there.
That's fine for sheep. But not for thinkers.
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a theological scrapbook
Posts: 9481 | From: Australia | Registered: Apr 2009
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
We're not short of bleating around here.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
The reformation was quite bloody is some parts of Europe. But you're confusing correlation with causation if you think only religion causes violence.
The Reformation was hardly a non-political process. To a significant extent, the religious turmoil was shaped and employed by German princes trying to restrict the power of the Catholic Church in their own realm and to diminish the influence of the Holy Roman Emperor. Without the rather clearly secular interests of these German nobles protecting and pushing it, the Reformation would have fizzled out like so many religious enthusiasms before it. At that time regional wars of secession and annexation were entirely commonplace in Europe. The widespread political fragmentation of German lands under all these princes carving out their independence and setting up new alliances under a religious banner was pretty much an irresistible setup for a big, big war. Was that then a religious war when it came? Maybe, but hardly a holy war of pure religious intentions...
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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004
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