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Source: (consider it) Thread: Hell: Be afraid, "Islamic State"
orfeo

Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878

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quote:
Originally posted by Stetson:
Professor Gorka comes off sounding like one of those "white Chriatian males are the most oppressed group on the planet" types. Not always the most reputable sources.

That website decided to immediately (before having a chance to read the article) pop up a window asking me to subscribe, with a bold tagline of "You Deserve The Truth". Never mind Professor Gorka personally, that was enough to arouse my suspicions.

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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.

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orfeo

Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878

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quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
quote:
Originally posted by Stetson:
Doing some research here, I'm a little skeptical about the source of this "N" story.

It seems legitimate.
quote:
Wikipedia
In Arabic-speaking cultures, two words are commonly used for Christians: Nasrani (نصراني), plural Nasara (نصارى) is generally understood to be derived from Nazareth through the Syriac (Aramaic); Masihi (مسيحي) means followers of the Messiah.

Where there is a distinction, Nasrani refers to people from a Christian culture and Masihi means those with a religious faith in Jesus. In some countries Nasrani tends to be used generically for non-Muslim white people. Another Arabic word sometimes used for Christians, particularly in a political context, is Salibi (صليبي "Crusader") from salib (صليب "crucifix") which refers to Crusaders and has negative connotations.


WordReference.com
Nasraani (which is after Nazareth and a name of a heretic sect of the 7th century which Muhammad may have known) was used solely by Muslims before the 20th century and was deeply hated by Christians because it was associated with the Ottoman millet system.

As soon as the Ottomans left in 1918, this word became obsolete in the Levant (and similar was the word Nusayri نصيري , the name of the Allawites under the millet system). The words نصراني and ثصيري (Christians and Allawites) were removed even from place names and to use them in Levant today is offensive and like calling an African person a nigger.

The latter comment makes a lot of sense in context.

All of that speaks to the legitimacy of the meaning of 'N'. None of it speaks to the question of whether the current story, about 'N' being marked, is true.

It may well be. I'm just pointing out that those links verify the concept, not the event.

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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.

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IngoB

Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700

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quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
All of that speaks to the legitimacy of the meaning of 'N'. None of it speaks to the question of whether the current story, about 'N' being marked, is true. It may well be. I'm just pointing out that those links verify the concept, not the event.

True. Sorry, I guess I misunderstood what was in question. I thought the marking by 'N' was basically established news, and that the question at hand was merely what that 'N' meant.

A short google makes this the most detailed source, including pictures and an appeal by the Chaldean Patriarch about it. But then the source itself is, shall we say, less known... The New York Times seems to think that the reports are correct though.

Googling around, I also found this t-shirt. It looks quite cool, actually. I'm semi-seriously tempted to buy that...

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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear

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Penny S
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# 14768

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I like that sign - it looks like an enfolding arm beneath a head bending over in sympathy.
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Stetson
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# 9597

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Last year, many Christians in the US and elsewhere opposed bombing Syria, partly on the grounds that destabilizing Baathist Syria would be detrimental to Christians.

I wonder what these Christians are thinking now, when the rationale for bombing is "Stop ISIS or Christians die!!"

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Demas
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# 24

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Lord save your children from the hates of their fathers.

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seekingsister
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# 17707

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The Financial Times (behind a paywall) is reporting that a group of pro-ISIS extremists was handing out leaflets in Oxford Street telling Muslims to pledge allegiance to the caliphate and move there. And that Muslims who confronted them in disagreement were verbally abused.

This is a deeply worrying development. Will it be possible to be a moderate Muslim in Britain anymore? There was also the ISIS-like flag that went up in East London last weekend, and reporters were asked by residents "Are you Jewish?"

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Curiosity killed ...

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Story also in the Evening Standard

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Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat

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Marvin the Martian

Interplanetary
# 4360

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quote:
Originally posted by seekingsister:
Will it be possible to be a moderate Muslim in Britain anymore?

If all the extremists pissed off to Iraq then it would be considerably easier to be a moderate in the UK.

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Hail Gallaxhar

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orfeo

Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878

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Another angle to these ISIS nutters, which is in keeping with Taliban behaviour as well, is their enthusiasm for blowing up thousands of years of cultural heritage.

Follow the various links from this story and you'll smashed statues, bulldozed mosques and the like. Mind you, you'll also see that in Syria, all sides have been quite good at getting ancient architectural treasures destroyed.

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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.

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seekingsister
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# 17707

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quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by seekingsister:
Will it be possible to be a moderate Muslim in Britain anymore?

If all the extremists pissed off to Iraq then it would be considerably easier to be a moderate in the UK.
But they're not trying to get the extremists to Iraq. They're trying to get ALL of the Muslims to Iraq, and telling them that it's God's command that they do so. I would say that makes being a moderate Muslim pretty challenging, especially if one has school-aged children who are being targeted specifically.
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Penny S
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# 14768

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I wonder why the Standard chose to put a "News picture of the day" of a litter of spotted piglets under the story.
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Sioni Sais
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# 5713

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quote:
Originally posted by Penny S:
I wonder why the Standard chose to put a "News picture of the day" of a litter of spotted piglets under the story.

That's sub-editors for you.

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L'organist
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# 17338

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posted by Orfeo
quote:
Another angle to these ISIS nutters, which is in keeping with Taliban behaviour as well, is their enthusiasm for blowing up thousands of years of cultural heritage.
Not surprising at all.

The Wahhabi and Salafi strands of Islam most prevalent in Saudi Arabia view the preservation of artefacts connected with any person - including mosques, graves, cemeteries, etc - as idolatrous so they either bulldoze them or concrete them over.

Wahhabism has heavily influenced Boko Haram and Al Qaeda in the Mahgreb, to the extent that many of the 'protected' mosques, tombs and shrines in Timbuktu - a UNESCO world heritage site - have been either badly damaged or totally destroyed.

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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet

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Evensong
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# 14696

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Good to see the world's top muslim leaders condemning the attacks on Iraqi Christians.

And reported by the Vatican no less.

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a theological scrapbook

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Demas
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# 24

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Press releases by religious bureaucrats are all well and good but I really wish, for everyone's sake, that there were anti-ISIS demonstrations happening everywhere that were at least equal in size and intensity to the recent anti-Israel demonstrations.

The radicals are trying to use these atrocities to drive a wedge between moderate Muslims and non-Muslim westeners and force the moderates into the arms of the radicals. A few large angry mobs of Muslims shouting anti-ISIS slogans and protesting Christian and Yazidi persecution would help Muslim/non-Muslim integration in the West immeasurably.

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They did not appear very religious; that is, they were not melancholy; and I therefore suspected they had not much piety - Life of Rev John Murray

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Sioni Sais
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# 5713

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quote:
Originally posted by Demas:
Press releases by religious bureaucrats are all well and good but I really wish, for everyone's sake, that there were anti-ISIS demonstrations happening everywhere that were at least equal in size and intensity to the recent anti-Israel demonstrations.

The radicals are trying to use these atrocities to drive a wedge between moderate Muslims and non-Muslim westeners and force the moderates into the arms of the radicals. A few large angry mobs of Muslims shouting anti-ISIS slogans and protesting Christian and Yazidi persecution would help Muslim/non-Muslim integration in the West immeasurably.

Get out there and protest then. There are some, but only a few, Israelis in the demonstrations opposing the military actions against Gaza and the West Bank.

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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"

(Paul Sinha, BBC)

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chris stiles
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# 12641

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quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
I've seen some of the graphic images online too. If they are for real then ...

There are some indications that the most graphic images are from other events altogether.
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Matt Black

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# 2210

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quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
quote:
Originally posted by Demas:
Press releases by religious bureaucrats are all well and good but I really wish, for everyone's sake, that there were anti-ISIS demonstrations happening everywhere that were at least equal in size and intensity to the recent anti-Israel demonstrations.

The radicals are trying to use these atrocities to drive a wedge between moderate Muslims and non-Muslim westeners and force the moderates into the arms of the radicals. A few large angry mobs of Muslims shouting anti-ISIS slogans and protesting Christian and Yazidi persecution would help Muslim/non-Muslim integration in the West immeasurably.

Get out there and protest then. There are some, but only a few, Israelis in the demonstrations opposing the military actions against Gaza and the West Bank.
Bit difficult if Demas isn't a Muslim, isn't it?

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"Protestant and Reformed, according to the Tradition of the ancient Catholic Church" - + John Cosin (1594-1672)

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LeRoc

Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216

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Could someone please point to this rule that the size of demonstrations should always be proportional to the atrocities committed? I must have missed it when I joined Humanity Inc™.

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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)

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Matt Black

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# 2210

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The issue isn't one of size but whether they are happening at all; 11 years ago, a lot of Brits were on the streets of London protesting against the Iraq invasion under the slogan (amongst others) "Not in our name". I'd like to see a bit of that at least....

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"Protestant and Reformed, according to the Tradition of the ancient Catholic Church" - + John Cosin (1594-1672)

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LeRoc

Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216

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There are anti ISIS demonstrations in the Netherlands. Muslims participate in them, and even organize them. Here is an example. But it's never enough, is it?

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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)

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Matt Black

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# 2210

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As far as I'm aware, there's nothing happening here organised by Muslims; I shall be delighted to be disabused of my ignorance if incorrect.

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"Protestant and Reformed, according to the Tradition of the ancient Catholic Church" - + John Cosin (1594-1672)

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LeRoc

Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216

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Here and here are some examples from the UK.

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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)

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Matt Black

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Good. Thank you.

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"Protestant and Reformed, according to the Tradition of the ancient Catholic Church" - + John Cosin (1594-1672)

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ChastMastr
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# 716

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quote:
Originally posted by Matt Black:
Bit difficult if Demas isn't a Muslim, isn't it?

Well, that's easy, just convert, then protest. Problem solved! [Smile]

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My essays on comics continuity: http://chastmastr.tumblr.com/tagged/continuity

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Demas
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# 24

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quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
Could someone please point to this rule that the size of demonstrations should always be proportional to the atrocities committed? I must have missed it when I joined Humanity Inc™.

The size of a demonstration tends to be proportional to how much people care about an issue. The Israel protests are relevant because they show what can be organized if people care enough.

A huge Muslim anti-ISIS demonstration (led ideally by Sunnis not Ahmadis) would be the best thing possible for future Muslim community relationships,

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They did not appear very religious; that is, they were not melancholy; and I therefore suspected they had not much piety - Life of Rev John Murray

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LeRoc

Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216

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quote:
Demas: A huge Muslim anti-ISIS demonstration (led ideally by Sunnis not Ahmadis) would be the best thing possible for future Muslim community relationships,
Muslim community relationships with whom?

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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)

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Demas
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# 24

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The wider non-Muslim majority.

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They did not appear very religious; that is, they were not melancholy; and I therefore suspected they had not much piety - Life of Rev John Murray

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LeRoc

Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216

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Ah, so the wider non-Muslim majority will have good relationships with the Muslim community on the condition that they organize an anti-ISIS demonstration that's at least as big as the one about Gaza?

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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)

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Demas
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# 24

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It would help people of good faith avoid the clash of civilizations that people like ISIS so devoutly wish for and would strengthen the moderate majority against the lunatics.

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They did not appear very religious; that is, they were not melancholy; and I therefore suspected they had not much piety - Life of Rev John Murray

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LeRoc

Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216

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I'm sorry but I'm just getting sick of the non-Muslim majority demanding that the Muslim community condemns extremism over and over again.

Their leaders publicly condemn extremism every time it happens. It's not enough.

The owner of the showarma shop in my street has condemned it over and over again towards his clients, even if he has nothing to do with the extremists. It's not enough.

Muslims organize demonstrations in the streets against ISIS. It's not enough.

Who the fuck are we to set ever-moving standards of when Muslims have condemned extremism enough? Maybe we should reach out to the Muslim community for once, without demanding things from them.

[ 13. August 2014, 19:40: Message edited by: LeRoc ]

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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)

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Demas
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# 24

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I'm demanding nothing. I have no personal preconditions. I'm fearfully expressing my concerns about a future with an even greater gulf between 'us' and 'them' and suggesting one way which would help avoid what I see as an oncoming storm.

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They did not appear very religious; that is, they were not melancholy; and I therefore suspected they had not much piety - Life of Rev John Murray

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IngoB

Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700

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quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
Their leaders publicly condemn extremism every time it happens. It's not enough.

Really?! Define "leaders", define "extremism" and define "every time". Maybe I am suffering from selective media reporting here, but my ears are not exactly worn out by Muslim leaders apologising over Muslim extremism.

quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
Who the fuck are we to set ever-moving standards of when Muslims have condemned extremism enough?

What moving standards would that be? Muslims murder, pillage, rape, destroy at newsworthy levels. A condemnation is in order. You know how often this has to be repeated? Every single time it happens. And if all was fair and square, then with ever increasing intensity and desperation. Because condemnations are supposed to be step one in stopping the condemned things form happening again, they are not supposed to be some kind of running commentary.

Yes, it's not "fair" to your harmless Muslim neighbour. So what? If he wants to complain, let him complain to those Muslim leaders who are apparently incapable of leading Muslim societies properly.

And by the way, I'm pretty sure that you are well-informed about the troubles in Northern Ireland, and you know about the Basque ETA, too. For that matter, you probably heard about the plane being shot down over Ukraine, and about Israel smashing up Gaza. It's not like there's some kind of news ban on all violence, war and terrorism but Muslim one. The reason why you get to hear so much about specifically Muslim trouble is because there is a lot of that going on in the world right now. And that's something for the Muslims to address.

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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear

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LeRoc

Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216

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quote:
IngoB: Really?! Define "leaders", define "extremism" and define "every time". Maybe I am suffering from selective media reporting here, but my ears are not exactly worn out by Muslim leaders apologising over Muslim extremism.
Yes, really. Here is the latest one from imams in the UK about ISIS. And it's definitely not the first time. They do this every time something happens.

Muslim leaders in the Netherlands have condemned 9/11, the reactions of Muslims to 9/11, the death of Theo van Gogh (and just to be sure also of Pim Fortuyn even if it wasn't a Muslim who killed him), ISIS ... They do it every single time. And it is never enough.

quote:
IngoB: And by the way, I'm pretty sure that you are well-informed about the troubles in Northern Ireland, and you know about the Basque ETA, too.
Hereby I utterly, deeply condemn the violence that is happening and has happened in Northern Ireland, Basque Country and the Ukraine. I distance myself from it. If you don't want to have a relationship with my community because I'm from the same race as the people who perpetrated this violence, then I completely understand. I apologize for this, and feel deeply ashamed because of it. I know that it is my duty to address the violence done by my race everyday. In fact, I'll issue another condemnation apology tomorrow.

...

Oh, this is is embarrassing. For a moment, I forgot that I'm white. I don't have to distance condemn these things every day. You only have to do these things if you're Muslim.

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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)

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Marvin the Martian

Interplanetary
# 4360

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quote:
Originally posted by Demas:
The size of a demonstration tends to be proportional to how much people care about an issue.

There's also the factor of how much difference the demonstration might actually make. A London protest against the actions of the UK government has a decent chance of being heard. A London protest against the actions of the Israeli government has at least the chance of persuading the UK government to put some pressure on Israel to change. But a London protest against the actions of a terrorist group in Iraq who won't pay the blindest bit of notice to it seems somewhat pointless to me.

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Hail Gallaxhar

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Sioni Sais
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# 5713

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quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
Their leaders publicly condemn extremism every time it happens. It's not enough.

Really?! Define "leaders", define "extremism" and define "every time". Maybe I am suffering from selective media reporting here, but my ears are not exactly worn out by Muslim leaders apologising over Muslim extremism.


I've not heard any Jewish leaders condemn the excesses of Israel's actions in Gaza.

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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"

(Paul Sinha, BBC)

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LeRoc

Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216

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quote:
Sioni Sais: I've not heard any Jewish leaders condemn the excesses of Israel's actions in Gaza.
I have.

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Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
Sioni Sais
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# 5713

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quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
quote:
Sioni Sais: I've not heard any Jewish leaders condemn the excesses of Israel's actions in Gaza.
I have.
Jews yes, but I've not heard leaders. Can you post a link or two?

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LeRoc

Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216

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quote:
Sioni Sais: Jews yes, but I've not heard leaders. Can you post a link or two?
There is a Dutch organization called Een Ander Joods Geluid (A Different Jewish Voice). We can discuss about whether we can call them 'leaders', but they're definitely people who influence public discussions. They have often openly condemned Israeli violence in Palestine.

[ 13. August 2014, 20:43: Message edited by: LeRoc ]

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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)

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Alex Cockell

Ship’s penguin
# 7487

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To deal with ISIS - hhow about this? If Islamists want to go out there - give them a one-way flight.. give it a couple of days...

Then authorise nuclear or MOAB release - and turn the bastards to glass.


Done.

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Alex Cockell

Ship’s penguin
# 7487

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Just heard on Newsnight that they seem to have extended their supply lines a little too far. Time for TOmahawks to be lobbed in..
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Penny S
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Alex, do you want to pulverise the women they have taken prisoner? All the perfectly ordinary people surrounding them who can do nothing against them?

There's a few things I want to do to them, but selectively. So the people living there can get on with living there in peace. Not have to avoid a glassy wasteland.

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quetzalcoatl
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There is also political work to be done, since the success of IS in Iraq is in part attributable to the sectarian policies of Maliki, who has cold-shouldered the Sunni tribes, who had fought against Al Quaeda (the Awakening). The hope was that if these Sunni forces could be integrated into the govt and polity of Iraq, then sectarian divisions would lessen.

However, most journalists are reporting that Maliki basically said fuck off to the Awakening - with the result that some Sunni tribes and leaders said, OK, fuck you, and then when IS came a-calling, they were either supportive or neutral, as they wanted revenge on Maliki.

So as well as bombing IS right now, the longer term solution is to find this 'integration' in Iraqi politics; but as Patrick Cockburn states, that hasn't happened for the last 50 years. The alternative is a break-up of Iraq.

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IngoB

Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700

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quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
Muslim leaders in the Netherlands have condemned 9/11, the reactions of Muslims to 9/11, the death of Theo van Gogh (and just to be sure also of Pim Fortuyn even if it wasn't a Muslim who killed him), ISIS ... They do it every single time. And it is never enough.

I take it then that your definition of "every single time" means "for the highest profile cases that make a massive splash in the Western media, every 4-5 years or so". It's not like you know of an apology for say every known attack in 2013.

But fair enough, I have heard apologies, and from some apparently important Muslim leaders. That's one of the problems by the way: I simply do not know who has relevant status in the Muslim word, so that their condemnation actually will mean something. 100 Muslim scholars signed this or that declaration. What does that mean? Maybe it will through the education system eventually change the opinion of millions of people. Maybe it will be totally ignored on Muslim streets. I have no idea.

But anyway, you seem to have the opinion that somehow there must be an end to all this condemning. That's putting the cart before the horse. There must be an end to all this terrorising, and when there is, then the need to condemn goes away. Until that time Muslim leaders need to condemn over and over again.

quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
Oh, this is is embarrassing. For a moment, I forgot that I'm white. I don't have to distance condemn these things every day. You only have to do these things if you're Muslim.

Whatever the fuck are you talking about? Whenever significant terrorist actions occurs among "whites", relevant political leaders will indeed have to condemn them. Heck, they will probably even condemn mere paintings associated with such violence. It's part of the job description of a leader, to lead on such issues as violence in their community.

The reason why it's "never enough" is because the terrorism isn't stopping. If I never hear a single condemnation of Muslim terrorism again, because there is none, then I will be overjoyed. But while it goes on and on, condemnations are really the bare minimum one expects out of leaders.

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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear

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Demas
Ship's Deserter
# 24

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quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
a London protest against the actions of a terrorist group in Iraq who won't pay the blindest bit of notice to it seems somewhat pointless to me.

As I said, a sufficiently large and assertive demonstration would greatly empower the moderate Muslims against local extremists and also greatly improve relations between them and the wider society.

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They did not appear very religious; that is, they were not melancholy; and I therefore suspected they had not much piety - Life of Rev John Murray

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Curiosity killed ...

Ship's Mug
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Normally demonstrations in London march to the relevant embassy - where does a London march to against ISIS?

100 London Imams speaking out against ISIS

Oh and these photos too

It's not necessarily that things aren't happening, they often aren't reported.

[ 13. August 2014, 22:37: Message edited by: Curiosity killed ... ]

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LeRoc

Famous Dutch pirate
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quote:
IngoB: But anyway, you seem to have the opinion that somehow there must be an end to all this condemning.
No, I applaud it every time when Muslims condemn extremism. I'm happy about that.

What I don't think that we have the right to demand this from ordinary Muslims who have nothing to do with extremism. When they do condemn it, excellent, but I have no right to demand this from them. I have no right to condition communities of ordinary Muslims having a place in society upon them making these condemnations. And I have no right to set the standards of when these condemnations will be enough.

A few days ago, a white police officer shot innocent Michael Brown. I condemn that. But no-one demands of me that I condemn that, just because I'm white. No-one will exclude my community if I don't condemn this. No-one sets standards on whether I have condemned this enough. There's a word for that. It's called privilege.

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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)

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orfeo

Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878

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quote:
Originally posted by Matt Black:
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
quote:
Originally posted by Demas:
Press releases by religious bureaucrats are all well and good but I really wish, for everyone's sake, that there were anti-ISIS demonstrations happening everywhere that were at least equal in size and intensity to the recent anti-Israel demonstrations.

The radicals are trying to use these atrocities to drive a wedge between moderate Muslims and non-Muslim westeners and force the moderates into the arms of the radicals. A few large angry mobs of Muslims shouting anti-ISIS slogans and protesting Christian and Yazidi persecution would help Muslim/non-Muslim integration in the West immeasurably.

Get out there and protest then. There are some, but only a few, Israelis in the demonstrations opposing the military actions against Gaza and the West Bank.
Bit difficult if Demas isn't a Muslim, isn't it?
You rather missed the logical corollary. Demas demands that the anti-Muslim protests have Muslims in them. But when talking about anti-Israel protests, doesn't seem to consider whether they have Israelis in them.

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orfeo

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# 13878

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quote:
Originally posted by Matt Black:
As far as I'm aware, there's nothing happening here organised by Muslims; I shall be delighted to be disabused of my ignorance if incorrect.

Why would you be made aware? If you're not a Muslim, why would any Muslims notify you about the fact that they're organising a Muslim protest to satisfy the apparent need to have Muslim protesters?

[ 13. August 2014, 23:00: Message edited by: orfeo ]

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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.

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