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Source: (consider it) Thread: Hell: IngoB you are a self-righteous prick
Paul.
Shipmate
# 37

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I agree with Barnabas. Whilst Boogie's classroom bully is apt in some ways, the key difference is that IngoB is not trying to seem like he's not doing it. He's been quite clear and open about how he operates. He's told us that he views the Ship merely as a way to sharpen his debate tactics and refine his arguments and that he specifically does not care about people here and whether he hurts us. He's told us that he views Purg debate in particular as like a boxing match, and that anyone who "gets in the ring" is therefore fair game provided he stays within the rules - "a good clean fight" as it were. Going as close to the line within the rules is the point, the way to win, not some surreptitious agenda.

Not that I think this is acceptable behaviour. To paraphrase someone's sig, treating people in this way, as objects for his own purposes, is pretty much the essence of evil. But that's between IngoB and his confessor.

Posts: 3689 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
mr cheesy
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# 3330

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IngoB appears to be educated in the Dawkins 'I can think it, therefore it is' school of thought.

That he can postulate that a third party must be lying ('in a technical sense') because he (the third party, who is not actually here to defend himself) just goes to show how IngoB has elevated things which only exist inside his brain to the status of inarguable truth.

The fact is that an atheist had a camera pointed at him and asked a silly question about what he would do if/when he realised God was real. Of course that requires some special mental gymnastics to answer, but that does not mean that he is lying - in a 'technical' sense or otherwise.

This whole argument is bogus. In fact, it isn't really an argument if the person engaging in the discussion believes that he is already in the truth and therefore the other cannot be (and ergo must be lying).

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arse

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goperryrevs
Shipmtae
# 13504

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quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
I find him dumber than people make him out to be. What he does is easier than it looks; it's just a trick you can teach yourself. It's easily mistaken for cleverness.

He knows a lot. But as they say, knowledge is not necessarily wisdom (or cleverness).

And yeah, M. Cheese. Ingo's 'argument' on that thread was laughable - he does usually do a lot better than that.

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"Keep your eye on the donut, not on the hole." - David Lynch

Posts: 2098 | From: Midlands | Registered: Mar 2008  |  IP: Logged
IngoB

Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700

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quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
Click.

What the fuck is that supposed to mean?
Sorry. You should try this instead.

quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
Why the fuck do you think you can read other people's minds?

It's a gift.

quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
What the fuck makes you think that the universe you can imagine is the only possible universe - and therefore anyone else who says anything else is lying?

The universe has this nasty habit of asserting itself. When it does, one gets what is called a "reality check". Why don't you go and get one? I'm sure its overdue. Have your oils changed as well, and don't forget to have your forehead stamped "loser".

quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
What the fuck are you here for?

For the most part, I'm here for my entertainment and some procrastination. To some extent I'm here for the vast array of heretical and sloppy thinking on offer. I would say "iron sharpens iron", but to be honest it's more "how long does the edge hold if you cut through gristle and fat".

quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
Who do you think gives a flying fuck about any of the pages of drivel that you write?

Lots of people, usually. You, for one.

quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
Who are you trying to impress?

Myself.

quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
Why are you wasting your time typing them?

I enjoy my writing. Both the process of writing itself, and reading the result.

quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
What the 'humane' level where you designate yourself the ability to read other people's minds and motives?

Let's see. You have started a Hell thread about me, and called me "tosser", while you would also insist that you are completely incapable of reading my mind and motives?

Look, I know this logic stuff makes your head hurt. But try to think a little about what you are saying? Just a little? Please?

quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
But that doesn't make him any kind of angel. Like I say, you get one in every class. They wind the others up surreptitiously, then it's always those who eventually retaliate who get in trouble.

I have never claimed to be an angel. But you are really mistaken if you think that I am a windup merchant. I'm not at all interested in making people upset. I'm interested in being right, and to be honest, in being right after some fight. Yes, it's a character flaw, but not one that feeds off "winding people up". For the most part I find it annoying when people get wound up. One cannot really argue Rumpelstilzchen into submission.

quote:
Originally posted by Bob Two-Owls:
Hey, lay off IngoB, he provides a valuable service around here. A few years ago I was wavering on the brink of going back to the Catholic Church, everyone here was giving me great advice and encouragement and I was about two days from an appointment for a chat at my local church. Then IngoB waded in and I cancelled.

I'm always amazed that people say this sort of thing in public as if it showed something bad about me, rather than about themselves. Seriously, if the words of some random idiot on the internet had determined crucial life choices I have made, here's what I would do: shut the hell up about it! It's pretty difficult for me to imagine a more embarrassing lack of good judgement.

--------------------
They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear

Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004  |  IP: Logged
mr cheesy
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# 3330

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quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
Sorry. You should try this instead.

I get it: you're a prick.

quote:
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
Why the fuck do you think you can read other people's minds?

It's a gift.
I get it: you're a prick.

quote:
The universe has this nasty habit of asserting itself. When it does, one gets what is called a "reality check". Why don't you go and get one? I'm sure its overdue. Have your oils changed as well, and don't forget to have your forehead stamped "loser".
Oh, I get it: you're a prick.

quote:
For the most part, I'm here for my entertainment and some procrastination. To some extent I'm here for the vast array of heretical and sloppy thinking on offer. I would say "iron sharpens iron", but to be honest it's more "how long does the edge hold if you cut through gristle and fat".
Prick.

quote:
Lots of people, usually. You, for one.
Wrong.

quote:
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
Who are you trying to impress?

Myself.
Easily pleased then.

quote:
I enjoy my writing. Both the process of writing itself, and reading the result.
I get it: you're a prick.

quote:
Let's see. You have started a Hell thread about me, and called me "tosser", while you would also insist that you are completely incapable of reading my mind and motives?

Look, I know this logic stuff makes your head hurt. But try to think a little about what you are saying? Just a little? Please?

No, y'know, that was established when I tried to make sense of your drivel in the thread and you just spouted more.

quote:
I have never claimed to be an angel. But you are really mistaken if you think that I am a windup merchant. I'm not at all interested in making people upset. I'm interested in being right, and to be honest, in being right after some fight. Yes, it's a character flaw, but not one that feeds off "winding people up". For the most part I find it annoying when people get wound up. One cannot really argue Rumpelstilzchen into submission.
Oh right, I get it: you're a prick.

quote:
I'm always amazed that people say this sort of thing in public as if it showed something bad about me, rather than about themselves. Seriously, if the words of some random idiot on the internet had determined crucial life choices I have made, here's what I would do: shut the hell up about it! It's pretty difficult for me to imagine a more embarrassing lack of good judgement.
Yes, gotcha: you're a prick.

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arse

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mdijon
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# 8520

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quote:
Originally posted by Bob Two-Owls:
Then IngoB waded in and I cancelled.

If you read some militant atheism and chatted with an extant Phelps or two would you then reinstate the appointment?

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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon

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mr cheesy
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# 3330

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I must say that it is extremely sad, if it was more than a joke, that anyone could make a judgement about a religion based largely on the performance of an idiot on a bulletin board. Surely there was something which interested you in Roman Catholicism beyond approval of IngoB, Bob Two-Owls?

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arse

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mdijon
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# 8520

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quote:
Originally posted by Tortuf:
One is the value of listening carefully to a dissenting voice.

I recently had a long-running struggle with a work colleague come to an end. Whatever I proposed would be attacked by them on principle, immediately, using every means possible. They would impugn the worst possible motives behind any initiative I took.

The struggle has come to an end as they have moved away. I find myself missing them, not simply because I'm a masochist, but because I had started relying on that part of my experience to test ideas out.

--------------------
mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon

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mdijon
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# 8520

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quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
if it was more than a joke

I think it is a very common accusation in varying forms, either that one personally was turned off religion/world view x, or that one foresees a number of posters or lurkers being turned off x. At best it might be conceived as an attempt to bring someone to their senses, at worst a petty attempt to induce some guilt or other negative emotion. Either way it clearly doesn't work here.

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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon

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IngoB

Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700

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quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
The fact is that an atheist had a camera pointed at him and asked a silly question about what he would do if/when he realised God was real. Of course that requires some special mental gymnastics to answer, but that does not mean that he is lying - in a 'technical' sense or otherwise.

The fun bit in this case is that everybody ends up agreeing with my factual analysis of Mr Fry's response, namely that it is unlikely that the first thing he would say to God is what he claimed he would say. Indeed, when people agree with me eventually they say things like "obvious" or "of course". Like you did here. The only thing people actually disagree with is my consequent judgement that if you are not really answering the question you have been asked, and if you are aware of that and do not explicitly acknowledge it in your answer, then at least in a technical sense you are lying. That, however, is simply true by the definition of "lie" as intentionally false statement.

In guess some people simply cannot stand that something bad has been attributed to Mr Fry. Well, tough.

--------------------
They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear

Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004  |  IP: Logged
Pyx_e

Quixotic Tilter
# 57

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Ingob's attempts at being right are summed up here

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It is better to be Kind than right.

Posts: 9778 | From: The Dark Tower | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
mr cheesy
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# 3330

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Right.. surely nobody seriously believes that IngoB represents the views of x billion Roman Catholics?

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arse

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Pyx_e

Quixotic Tilter
# 57

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Cheesy is back

[ 13. February 2015, 09:52: Message edited by: Pyx_e ]

--------------------
It is better to be Kind than right.

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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330

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quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
The fun bit in this case is that everybody ends up agreeing with my factual analysis of Mr Fry's response, namely that it is unlikely that the first thing he would say to God is what he claimed he would say.

Wrong. Nobody agreed with that. Figment of your imagination.


quote:
Indeed, when people agree with me eventually they say things like "obvious" or "of course". Like you did here. The only thing people actually disagree with is my consequent judgement that if you are not really answering the question you have been asked, and if you are aware of that and do not explicitly acknowledge it in your answer, then at least in a technical sense you are lying. That, however, is simply true by the definition of "lie" as intentionally false statement.
Bullshit. What are you snorting?

quote:
In guess some people simply cannot stand that something bad has been attributed to Mr Fry. Well, tough.
I can't stand the man. But worse is thinking that one can reach inside his mind and determine that he is lying about something that he is saying about an imaginary conversation. That's just stupid.

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arse

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IngoB

Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700

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quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
Prick.

Tell you what, I can live with that. Are we done then?

--------------------
They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear

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LeRoc

Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216

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quote:
RooK: And yet you are completely unable to duplicate it yourself.
How do you know? I'm not trying.

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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)

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Boogie

Boogie on down!
# 13538

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quote:
Originally posted by Paul.:
I agree with Barnabas. Whilst Boogie's classroom bully is apt in some ways, the key difference is that IngoB is not trying to seem like he's not doing it.

Yes, that's true.

It's the 'staying constantly and cleverly close to the line of acceptable behaviour which does the winding up.

Not the sharp pencil under the desk.

quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
... you are really mistaken if you think that I am a windup merchant. I'm not at all interested in making people upset. I'm interested in being right, and to be honest, in being right after some fight. Yes, it's a character flaw, but not one that feeds off "winding people up". For the most part I find it annoying when people get wound up.

Yes - I can see that.

Your posts don't wind me up at all. The God stuff is no longer important enough to me. But for those who care, including you, I think there is far, far more going on than being 'right'.

It's not a subject that anyone is ever 'right' about. You can argue well, even brilliantly - but you will never, ever know for sure that you are right (this side of the pearly gates).

--------------------
Garden. Room. Walk

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Evensong
Shipmate
# 14696

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quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
Tosser.

Fraid I can't see the problem with that post.

What's the problem?

( Your friendly doctor )

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a theological scrapbook

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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330

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quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
Tell you what, I can live with that. Are we done then?

What, can I live with the fact that you say you are only here to sharpen your arguments and that the rest of us are so dull that it doesn't even work?

No, actually I can't. You are a troll, people have been asked to leave for less than that.

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arse

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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330

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quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
Fraid I can't see the problem with that post.

What's the problem?

If you can't see the problem with IngoB imagining that he can second-guess what is going on in Stephen Fry's imaginary conversation with the God he doesn't believe exists, then I can't explain it.

--------------------
arse

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Evensong
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# 14696

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quote:
Originally posted by Pyx_e:
Cheesy is back

I'm in love. [Axe murder] That gif is a keeper. [Big Grin]

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a theological scrapbook

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Yorick

Infinite Jester
# 12169

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IngoB is an extremely valuable contributor to this place, however you feel about the manner and style of his contributions (which feeling may say more about you than him, ISTM). And I say this as someone who has been completely trashed in argument by him more than most people here. Grow the fuck up, live and let live, and if you're really clever, learn.

--------------------
این نیز بگذرد

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mr cheesy
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# 3330

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quote:
Originally posted by Yorick:
IngoB is an extremely valuable contributor to this place, however you feel about the manner and style of his contributions (which feeling may say more about you than him, ISTM). And I say this as someone who has been completely trashed in argument by him more than most people here. Grow the fuck up, live and let live, and if you're really clever, learn.

No, sorry, that's not good enough. If IngoB was a 'valued contributor', it would be because he was able to give reasons for his beliefs beyond 'I can think it, therefore it is'.

I am perfectly happy to 'live and let live' someone who fundamentally disagrees with me, what I am not prepared to do is to allow someone else decide the truths of the universe measured only by what is acceptable inside his head.

--------------------
arse

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Evensong
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# 14696

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quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
Fraid I can't see the problem with that post.

What's the problem?

If you can't see the problem with IngoB imagining that he can second-guess what is going on in Stephen Fry's imaginary conversation with the God he doesn't believe exists, then I can't explain it.
You mean his guessing Fry wouldn't actually ask that worm question if he really was confronted by God?

Totally reasonable guess. If you meet God that you didn't believe existed in the first place you're going to be overwhelmed on a number of fronts and your response will likely be entirely different from the response given to a TV interviewer.

--------------------
a theological scrapbook

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orfeo

Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878

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quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
I'm not at all interested in making people upset. I'm interested in being right, and to be honest, in being right after some fight.

But here's the really fascinating part: you're always right before the fight as well.

--------------------
Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.

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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748

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quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
No, actually I can't. You are a troll, people have been asked to leave for less than that.

Yes, yes they have. And not so much as 'asked', but rather 'planked', which is a different kettle of fish. It is, however, not in your purview to judge that.

DT
HH


--------------------
Forward the New Republic

Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged
mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330

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quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
You mean his guessing Fry wouldn't actually ask that worm question if he really was confronted by God?

Totally reasonable guess. If you meet God that you didn't believe existed in the first place you're going to be overwhelmed on a number of fronts and your response will likely be entirely different from the response given to a TV interviewer.

No this is well beyond guessing - this is confidently asserting that the thing cannot possibly be true and the person saying it is lying.

--------------------
arse

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Evensong
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# 14696

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Where does Ingo say Fry is lying? Did I miss that? I thought the word he used was unlikely.

[ 13. February 2015, 10:40: Message edited by: Evensong ]

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a theological scrapbook

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mr cheesy
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# 3330

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quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
Where does Ingo say Fry is lying? Did I miss that? I thought the word he used was unlikely.

You might want to read the whole of his contributions to the thread:

quote:
I also do think that Mr Fry was being dishonest there. Not in the sense of factual lying, but I do not believe that he was speaking from his heart. Rather, he was simply reeling off a standard apologetic attack on God, a standard theodicy argument. Given that the interviewer did try to get a "personal angle" with his question, if perhaps in trite fashion, I think this was largely an evasive manoeuvre emphatically performed to shut down this personal line of questioning. In short, I very much doubt that Mr Fry would mention eyeball eating worms if he was actually faced with God. He might well go on about the many pains inflicted by the world then, but I bet it would be about pains a lot closer to his own experience.


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arse

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Bob Two-Owls
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# 9680

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quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
if it was more than a joke

I think it is a very common accusation in varying forms, either that one personally was turned off religion/world view x, or that one foresees a number of posters or lurkers being turned off x. At best it might be conceived as an attempt to bring someone to their senses, at worst a petty attempt to induce some guilt or other negative emotion. Either way it clearly doesn't work here.
No it wasn't a joke and I genuinely respect IngoB for what he does. I occasionally get seduced by the cultural trappings of Catholicism, mainly due to my Catholic upbringing. IngoB never sugars the pill, he doesn't allow for wishy-washy feelings to sway the heart and he usually shows me that I can't just paddle around the edges of faith. For me, that means out rather than in but I do think that the ship is all the better for his presence.
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Yorick

Infinite Jester
# 12169

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quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
quote:
Originally posted by Yorick:
IngoB is an extremely valuable contributor to this place, however you feel about the manner and style of his contributions (which feeling may say more about you than him, ISTM). And I say this as someone who has been completely trashed in argument by him more than most people here. Grow the fuck up, live and let live, and if you're really clever, learn.

No, sorry, that's not good enough. If IngoB was a 'valued contributor', it would be because he was able to give reasons for his beliefs beyond 'I can think it, therefore it is'.

I am perfectly happy to 'live and let live' someone who fundamentally disagrees with me, what I am not prepared to do is to allow someone else decide the truths of the universe measured only by what is acceptable inside his head.

Well, guess what? Nobody gives a bumfuck for what you're prepared to allow, because, guess what? You don't get to call the shots here.

Oh, and I said 'valuable', not 'valued', fucktard. The two words might sound the same to your tiny mind but they ain't, so please don't misquote me, thanks everso.

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این نیز بگذرد

Posts: 7574 | From: Natural Sources | Registered: Dec 2006  |  IP: Logged
mr cheesy
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# 3330

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OK, Yorick that was a fair comment, I deserved that.

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arse

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Teufelchen
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# 10158

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quote:
Originally posted by comet:
Teufy! Where ya been, you crazy little fucker, you? I've missed you!

I missed you too! Crazy is the word, though. I was about as insane as I could be without getting myself fired from work. Then, to prove my sanity, I became a parent! *sadtrombone.wav*
quote:
Originally posted by Barnbas62:
I don't think there is anything underhanded about IngoB's posting style. When he stabs you, or your argument, he stabs you in the front.

Usually with something blunt and rusty.

t

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Little devil

Posts: 3894 | From: London area | Registered: Aug 2005  |  IP: Logged
JoannaP
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# 4493

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quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
I'm not at all interested in making people upset. ... For the most part I find it annoying when people get wound up.

Perhaps then you should try to be a bit more interested in not making people upset.
Possibly if you read the prayer thread in All Saints on a regular basis (as recommended by Erin) it might help you grasp that we are real people, with feelings and emotions and all, not just avatars provided for your amusement.

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"Freedom for the pike is death for the minnow." R. H. Tawney (quoted by Isaiah Berlin)

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." Benjamin Franklin

Posts: 1877 | From: England | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
mousethief

Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953

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quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
What have the Jesuits done to deserve me, and what have I done to deserved them? Let's keep the gratuitous insults at a humane level, shall we?

Immediately followed, as if the irony weren't at all obvious, by:

quote:
mousethief, you are a walking self-fulfilling prophecy. And that prophecy goes something like this: "The world is a hateful place, full of mean people not listening and hurting each other." Here's a song for you.
No I'm not going to click your fucking link, you sick fuck of a bully.

quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
Byron, just because IngoB is not up front about it doesn't make him kind and thoughtful. His digs are hidden and underhand - they keep this side of the planking line very cleverly.

It's because Byron is too stupid to get it.

quote:
Originally posted by Paul.:
I agree with Barnabas. Whilst Boogie's classroom bully is apt in some ways, the key difference is that IngoB is not trying to seem like he's not doing it. He's been quite clear and open about how he operates. He's told us that he views the Ship merely as a way to sharpen his debate tactics and refine his arguments and that he specifically does not care about people here and whether he hurts us. He's told us that he views Purg debate in particular as like a boxing match, and that anyone who "gets in the ring" is therefore fair game provided he stays within the rules - "a good clean fight" as it were. Going as close to the line within the rules is the point, the way to win, not some surreptitious agenda.

But that's not being up-front about it. That is the FRONT. The reality is that he's here to hurt people, and uses this "joy of the debate" bullshit as his cover. Which is insidiously clever, because it makes it LOOK like he's being up-front, and he obviously has fooled you and many others.

quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
I'm not at all interested in making people upset.

This flies in the face of all available evidence. Using the logic you claim to be so enamoured of, it's simply not possible.

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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...

Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
mousethief

Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953

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From the Defending God thread:

quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
Furthermore, you're saying it on a board for people who've lost faith, are questioning, are in pain, etc. If you're trying to lead them to God, you may well have the opposite effect.

Well, I'm not. Other than fortuitously, if they happen to have lost their faith over some falsehood I'm trying to eliminate.
IngoB admits he doesn't give a flying fuck about how much damage he does to other people. Which is the closest to honesty (the truth is he in fact looks for ways to inflict damage on other people) he's ever come here.

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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...

Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
JonahMan
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# 12126

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quote:
Originally posted by JoannaP:
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
I'm not at all interested in making people upset. ... For the most part I find it annoying when people get wound up.

Perhaps then you should try to be a bit more interested in not making people upset.
Possibly if you read the prayer thread in All Saints on a regular basis (as recommended by Erin) it might help you grasp that we are real people, with feelings and emotions and all, not just avatars provided for your amusement.

As private parts are we to IngoB; he plays with us for his pleasure.

--------------------
Thank God for the aged
And old age itself, and illness and the grave
For when you're old, or ill and particularly in the coffin
It's no trouble to behave

Posts: 914 | From: Planet Zog | Registered: Dec 2006  |  IP: Logged
RooK

1 of 6
# 1852

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quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:How do you know? I'm not trying.
Occam's Razor suggests that when a person doesn't appear intelligent, "trying" is the least of their problems.
Posts: 15274 | From: Portland, Oregon, USA, Earth | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged
IngoB

Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700

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quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
It's not a subject that anyone is ever 'right' about. You can argue well, even brilliantly - but you will never, ever know for sure that you are right (this side of the pearly gates).

That depends on what you mean by "sure". Obviously faith is required. But faith means acting for all intents and purposes as if something is sure, even if it cannot be demonstrated to be sure on the basis of available information. So you could say that I consciously choose to be sure.

quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
What, can I live with the fact that you say you are only here to sharpen your arguments and that the rest of us are so dull that it doesn't even work? No, actually I can't.

Then you will have to die to it.

quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
No, sorry, that's not good enough. If IngoB was a 'valued contributor', it would be because he was able to give reasons for his beliefs beyond 'I can think it, therefore it is'.

I have many faults. Not providing reasons for my beliefs is not one of them. In the thread, which everybody can read for themselves, I have provided reasons for my claim over and over and over again - largely in response to your continued brainless questioning. The mere fact that you do not understand my reasons, or do not believe that they hold water, does not change that I have given reasons, and of course believe these reasons to be good and true.

quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
But here's the really fascinating part: you're always right before the fight as well.

Uncanny, isn't it? [Big Grin]

quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
Where does Ingo say Fry is lying? Did I miss that? I thought the word he used was unlikely.

You might want to read the whole of his contributions to the thread:
quote:
I also do think that Mr Fry was being dishonest there. Not in the sense of factual lying, but I do not believe that he was speaking from his heart. Rather, he was simply reeling off a standard apologetic attack on God, a standard theodicy argument. Given that the interviewer did try to get a "personal angle" with his question, if perhaps in trite fashion, I think this was largely an evasive manoeuvre emphatically performed to shut down this personal line of questioning. In short, I very much doubt that Mr Fry would mention eyeball eating worms if he was actually faced with God. He might well go on about the many pains inflicted by the world then, but I bet it would be about pains a lot closer to his own experience.

I stand by everything I said there, though quite likely not by what you read into it.

quote:
Originally posted by JoannaP:
Perhaps then you should try to be a bit more interested in not making people upset. Possibly if you read the prayer thread in All Saints on a regular basis (as recommended by Erin) it might help you grasp that we are real people, with feelings and emotions and all, not just avatars provided for your amusement.

And if those real people have sorted out their feelings and emotions in All Saints or elsewhere, and are up for a round of the intellectually challenging amusement of Purgatory (and related boards), then I will happily meet them there.

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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear

Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004  |  IP: Logged
mr cheesy
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# 3330

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quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
I have many faults. Not providing reasons for my beliefs is not one of them. In the thread, which everybody can read for themselves, I have provided reasons for my claim over and over and over again - largely in response to your continued brainless questioning. The mere fact that you do not understand my reasons, or do not believe that they hold water, does not change that I have given reasons, and of course believe these reasons to be good and true.

Bullshit. you are delusional.

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arse

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mr cheesy
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# 3330

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See we don't have to make up shit to know what is going on in your mind and your motives here - because you've already stated why.

And it a fucking disgrace.

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arse

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IngoB

Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700

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quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
IngoB admits he doesn't give a flying fuck about how much damage he does to other people.

In the quoted text I simply said that I'm not trying to lead people to God.

quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
Which is the closest to honesty (the truth is he in fact looks for ways to inflict damage on other people) he's ever come here.

No, mousethief, that's a key difference between me and you. I may be bruising, but you are vicious.

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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear

Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004  |  IP: Logged
IngoB

Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700

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mr cheesy, I cannot make you understand, you cannot make me care.

I suggest we leave it at that. Repetition will not make it any better.

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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear

Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004  |  IP: Logged
mr cheesy
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# 3330

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quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
mr cheesy, I cannot make you understand, you cannot make me care.

I suggest we leave it at that. Repetition will not make it any better.

No, I suggest you try explaining yourself.

You cannot just say that Fry is lying because it doesn't make sense to you - as if that is the measure of anything. You can't just spout shite and expect to be let off the hook.

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arse

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mousethief

Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953

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quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
Which is the closest to honesty (the truth is he in fact looks for ways to inflict damage on other people) he's ever come here.

No, mousethief, that's a key difference between me and you. I may be bruising, but you are vicious.
Yawn. Go tell someone who believes anything you say, sick fuck.

--------------------
This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...

Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
IngoB

Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700

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quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
No, I suggest you try explaining yourself. You cannot just say that Fry is lying because it doesn't make sense to you - as if that is the measure of anything. You can't just spout shite and expect to be let off the hook.

You quoted one of my explanations above, others can be found on the original thread. I think that will do. Now, tell me, what sort of hook do you believe you have me on?

quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
Yawn. Go tell someone who believes anything you say, sick fuck.

But I am.

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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear

Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004  |  IP: Logged
mr cheesy
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# 3330

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quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
You quoted one of my explanations above, others can be found on the original thread. I think that will do. Now, tell me, what sort of hook do you believe you have me on?

That is not an explanation anywhere outside of your tiny brain.

[ 13. February 2015, 15:01: Message edited by: mr cheesy ]

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arse

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Organ Builder
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# 12478

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quote:
Originally posted by Pyx_e:
Ingob's attempts at being right are summed up here

That also sums up the value of attempting to argue with him.

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How desperately difficult it is to be honest with oneself. It is much easier to be honest with other people.--E.F. Benson

Posts: 3337 | From: ...somewhere in between 40 and death... | Registered: Mar 2007  |  IP: Logged
IngoB

Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700

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quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
That is not an explanation anywhere outside of your tiny brain.

For the sake of argument, let it be so. Now what? Aren't you exactly trying to elicit a reasonable response from my tiny brain? Do you see the problem there?

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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear

Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004  |  IP: Logged
mr cheesy
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# 3330

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quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
For the sake of argument, let it be so. Now what? Aren't you exactly trying to elicit a reasonable response from my tiny brain? Do you see the problem there?

I am trying to get you to understand that asserting something is not the same as having an argument based on facts.

Saying that Fry could not do something because you can't imagine him doing something in an imaginary situation with a God he doesn't believe in is not the same as saying he is lying. That is just wrong.

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arse

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