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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Hell: IngoB you are a self-righteous prick
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Evensong
Shipmate
# 14696
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by passer:
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
I wish you'd all lay off him. I'd hate for him to disappear. Would be a loss to the Ship.
I agree that he'd be a great loss, but I rather doubt that a minor spat like this one (he's had tougher calls than this) is likely to make him leave. He'll leave if and when he chooses to, and not as a result of a partial dogpiling. I don't think you and I are alone in defending him. I regard him as one of the most important contributors on the board (Christian unrest, anybody?). This kind of exchange is his meat and drink.
Agreed. To a point. I think he still get's kicks out of being called to hell but I reckon there must be a point of no return eventually.
Perhaps not. Perhaps hell calls feed him more than purg and will continue to do so. Some people need contention to make them feel alive and it's what gets them through life. Who knows.
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a theological scrapbook
Posts: 9481 | From: Australia | Registered: Apr 2009
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Byron:
IngoB's a bullish debater. Well so what, no one's obliged to debate him
I always find this to be such a bullshit argument.
In whatever form it takes, the whole notion of "hey, you don't have to react to the person who's actively trying to make you react" is an exercise in blame-shifting, from perpetrator to victim.
It's on the same level as the 'apologies' that are so common nowadays, where it's always "I apologise if you interpreted my words to be offensive" in a way that's designed to imply it's all the listener's fault.
This is a forum. In Purgatory in particular, it's intended to be a place for exchanging ideas. To say that hey, no-one has to debate a guy who makes his presence very apparent just flies in the face of why we're here.
Saying "hey, you don't have to exchange messages on a message board" makes about as much sense as a used car salesman saying "yeah, okay, this car is a deathtrap, but you don't have to drive it".
Hell is here so that people have a place to say "hey, this car is a piece of shit". You can argue that people are wrong about Ingo, but arguing that THEY'RE the problem for actually caring about their interactions with Ingo is just a really shitty line of argument.
[ 14. February 2015, 10:49: Message edited by: orfeo ]
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Byron
Shipmate
# 15532
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
quote:
Originally posted by Byron:
Every other blog, discussion section & bulletin board I've visited survives without a snakepit and without arguments breaking out all over.
Every other board would have banned your sorry arse for the shit you pull. Be grateful.
I doubt it. I avoid insults, misrepresentation, and own my mistakes. Most I've never pulled so much as a warning.
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
[...] Hell is here so that people have a place to say "hey, this car is a piece of shit". You can argue that people are wrong about Ingo, but arguing that THEY'RE the problem for actually caring about their interactions with Ingo is just a really shitty line of argument.
I'm not. What, exactly, do people want IngoB to do differently?
IngoB's open about liking a challenge, and treating discussions like sparring. Anyone who doesn't want to spar can just ignore his first reply and, from what I've seen, he'll drop it and move onto someone else.
He could change his entire posting style, but so long as he keeps within the rules, I don't see why he should. You know exactly where you stand with him, and what kinda discussion you'll get.
I'd totally see the problem if he was forcing this approach into forums like All Saints, or demanding people reply when they don't, but from what I've seen, he isn't.
[ 14. February 2015, 11:36: Message edited by: Byron ]
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Yorick
Infinite Jester
# 12169
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Posted
On the other hand, orfeo, I think you have to admit that we all have our own responsibility for the way he 'makes' us feel with the style of his contributions. It's the fucking internet, right? Kitchen/heat?
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این نیز بگذرد
Posts: 7574 | From: Natural Sources | Registered: Dec 2006
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Yorick
Infinite Jester
# 12169
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by RooK:
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
But I also bring real and unique information to these boards, and now and then even an original thought. And for the most part, in a well-argued fashion. And I do so because I actually care about doing that. Whether you appreciate that or not is neither here nor there for me, really.
Cheers to this. You have all the empathy of a dyspeptic badger, and the intersocial comprehension of a pitcher plant, but I have a very high regard of people engaging genuinely - and I am convinced that you do that for the most part.
Seconded.
I was about to say that if IngoB left this place unwillingly I wouldn't hang around, but then I realised how most people would see that as a win-win situation. ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
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این نیز بگذرد
Posts: 7574 | From: Natural Sources | Registered: Dec 2006
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Yorick
Infinite Jester
# 12169
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
And this is why we all end up feeling like he's treating us as props, not peers.
Which is why I loathe him.
How Christlike of you.
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این نیز بگذرد
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Byron:
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
He's interested in ideas, not people.
Is that such a bad thing on an anonymous web forum? So long as you remember there's a person behind the screen, seems legit to use the Ship in that way.
I didn't say it was a bad thing, it's just a fact. Some folks are interested in the people behind the ideas, some are not.
It helps, I think, to know those who are not.
quote:
Originally posted by Byron:
IngoB's a bullish debater. Well so what, no one's obliged to debate him, and he keeps it on topic.
This isn't helpful at all.
It's like someone saying 'you don't have to be here'. Well, no - nobody has to be here, nobody has to debate with IngoB or anyone else.
But if you want to follow something on a thread it's actually quite hard to scroll past individual posters, especially when their contributions are being hotly debated.
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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Byron
Shipmate
# 15532
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
I didn't say it was a bad thing, it's just a fact. Some folks are interested in the people behind the ideas, some are not.
It helps, I think, to know those who are not.
OK, my mistake, sorry about that. I agree it's good to know where we stand, which we do with IngoB.
quote:
This isn't helpful at all.
It's like someone saying 'you don't have to be here'. Well, no - nobody has to be here, nobody has to debate with IngoB or anyone else.
But if you want to follow something on a thread it's actually quite hard to scroll past individual posters, especially when their contributions are being hotly debated.
Right, that's a fair point, it can disrupt the discussion.
How d'you want IngoB to post differently, if you do? If he's gonna consider changing how he debates (which, of course, is his call) he'll need specifics. What could he do to make discussions flow better? (Beside the obvious "Stay out of 'em" ![[Biased]](wink.gif) )
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Yorick:
On the other hand, orfeo, I think you have to admit that we all have our own responsibility for the way he 'makes' us feel with the style of his contributions. It's the fucking internet, right? Kitchen/heat?
Is this not a perfect demonstration of the attitude that somehow the internet isn't like real life?
I imagine once upon a time people said "it's the fucking telephone" or "it's the fucking postal service". All you're doing is stating the current technology being used for communication.
It's still communication between human beings. And we have here a particular human being who is repeatedly generating the same negative reaction from other human beings, and who simply doesn't give enough of a shit about those other human beings to try and change his ways to as to avoid upsetting them.
Why the blazes do you think that the fact this is done on the internet makes a difference? Kitchen/heat? Where else would you like me to apply this, hmm? Workplace - got a sociopathic colleague? Kitchen/heat. Your street - got a problem neighbour? Kitchen/heat. Public transport? Kitchen/heat. At best it's a glib reference to how some people behave when they think they can't get 'caught' or face consequences for their actions. Which various news stories show is complete bullshit, anyway - you can definitely face consequences on the internet, and this little corner of it isn't very anonymous in the first place.
Nowhere on the internet is there a sign saying "nice normal people should display completely different and nastier personalities here because they'll get away with it". If you're thinking along the same line as Byron's claim that Shipmates don't reflect their "real" personalities here, then you're kidding yourself.* In fact, the latest research indicates that people who are trolls on the internet display similar behaviour in 'real life'. There's no heated kitchen. There's just an insensitive jerk who decided at some point that people on other parts of the planet needed to 'benefit' from his presence the way those in geographical proximity already benefitted.
* Sure, when people meet me they are occasionally surprised at the youthful complexion and the big smile, but I still get passionate or pissed off in real life about the exact same things I get passionate or pissed off about here. I don't make up different thinking for the sake of the internet. It's just expressed through my quickly typing fingers instead of with eye-rolls and my hands waving about as I talk.
[ 14. February 2015, 12:36: Message edited by: orfeo ]
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Byron:
How d'you want IngoB to post differently, if you do? If he's gonna consider changing how he debates (which, of course, is his call) he'll need specifics. What could he do to make discussions flow better?
He really does piss a lot of people off. So I'd like him to think about why this is.
It isn't his ideas which piss folks off imo. It's his defensive, adversarial style. The 'I'm right' assumptions on absolutely everything.
He must know that no-one is right all the time. It would help him, and us, if he were more honest about this fact.
I'd like him to face the fact that 'I may be wrong but ...' is not a harmful way to discuss matters, especially matters of God where really and truly nobody knows.
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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Byron
Shipmate
# 15532
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
[...] If you're thinking along the same line as Byron's claim that Shipmates don't reflect their "real" personalities here, then you're kidding yourself. [...]
As I said first time around, unless a bunch of Shipmates settle interpersonal problems by getting in people's faces and screaming abuse, no, "real" personalities aren't reflected here. What might be reflected here is wish fulfillment, of what life would be like if none of the normal constraints and consequences applied.
If I'm wrong about this, how many would be comfortable for their friends, bosses, colleagues, churches and family to know the type of material they post in Hell?
So yeah, Hell might work as a test of who were are in the dark. If so, the answer's mighty depressing. Ever the optimist, I prefer to think of it as an ongoing, uncontrolled Stanford prison experiment, which makes a lot of folk act out-of-character.
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Byron
Shipmate
# 15532
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
quote:
Originally posted by Byron:
How d'you want IngoB to post differently, if you do? If he's gonna consider changing how he debates (which, of course, is his call) he'll need specifics. What could he do to make discussions flow better?
He really does piss a lot of people off. So I'd like him to think about why this is.
It isn't his ideas which piss folks off imo. It's his defensive, adversarial style. The 'I'm right' assumptions on absolutely everything.
He must know that no-one is right all the time. It would help him, and us, if he were more honest about this fact.
I'd like him to face the fact that 'I may be wrong but ...' is not a harmful way to discuss matters, especially matters of God where really and truly nobody knows.
I'd agree with this on a personal level, but IngoB's creed doesn't allow for admissions of error. The Catholic Church's magisterium claims it's infallible on matters of doctrine. That's why he's a Catholic, and I'm not, nor ever likely to be.
It might smooth things over if IngoB drew a clear distinction between himself and the magisterium, but then, as he'd still be taking the same dogmatic (in the strict sense) positions, the practical effect might not be any different.
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Byron:
As I said first time around, unless a bunch of Shipmates settle interpersonal problems by getting in people's faces and screaming abuse, no, "real" personalities aren't reflected here.
I don't think what you're talking about here is particularly what constitutes 'personality'.
WHO IS SCREAMING ANYWAY? THIS IS WHAT SCREAMING WOULD LOOK LIKE. WE DON"T ACTUALLY SPEND A LOT OF TIME SCREAMING AROUND HERE, WOULD YOU LIKE US TO SCREAM SO THAT YOUR DESCRIPTION IS MORE ACCURATE?
Or would you like to dispense with that particular adjective?
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Yorick:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
And this is why we all end up feeling like he's treating us as props, not peers.
Which is why I loathe him.
How Christlike of you.
( Jesus God I never thought I'd say this.) Yorik might have a point.
If Bingo is creating the turmoil everyone says he is, then Scriptural protocol is that we should be burying him in an avalance of prayer. I suggested to him a long time ago that throwing an occasional " ![[Votive]](graemlins/votive.gif) " on the prayer thread might help him develop some sense of kinship with us-- well, maybe those of us who have bouts of loathing him can try that, too.
This thread is the textual equivalent of when an adult tries to pick up a toddler and they do that magic limp muscle thing that makes it feel like you are trying to carry 20 pounds of spaghetti dressed in olive oil in your arms. He's just too good at evasion. Yorik said " be Christlike" , Christ said "pray for your enemies." ( rhetorically speaking-- sorry, Bingo.) Maybe it's worth a shot.
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
On the other hand, that sounds a bit like ITTWACW.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Evensong
Shipmate
# 14696
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
we should be burying him in an avalance of prayer
I adore the visual that conjures. ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
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a theological scrapbook
Posts: 9481 | From: Australia | Registered: Apr 2009
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
I'm not saying anyone is doing anything wrong on this thread-- I just wonder what would happen if we tried it. In addition to the epic Hell thread, I mean, not instead of it.
Also, I made a real jackass of myself yesterday, and am in a place to welcome humility. Just trust me on that one.
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Byron:
I doubt it. I avoid insults, misrepresentation, and own my mistakes. Most I've never pulled so much as a warning.
As I'm very fond of saying, acting like an utter arse (in your case, continually reframing the argument to suit you, reinterpreting the dictionary - again, to suit you - and pretending to be a hot-shot lawyer who knows jack about how the law actually works), is far, far worse than calling someone a bad name.
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Forward the New Republic
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
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Byron
Shipmate
# 15532
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
I don't think what you're talking about here is particularly what constitutes 'personality'.
WHO IS SCREAMING ANYWAY? THIS IS WHAT SCREAMING WOULD LOOK LIKE. WE DON"T ACTUALLY SPEND A LOT OF TIME SCREAMING AROUND HERE, WOULD YOU LIKE US TO SCREAM SO THAT YOUR DESCRIPTION IS MORE ACCURATE?
Or would you like to dispense with that particular adjective?
Hellish turns of phrase aren't usually delivered in a calm, measured voice, but OK, I can run with that: getting in someone's face, holding their gaze, and saying coolly, "You're a sick fuck who exploits people's deaths," or whatever, would be equally likely to start a fight as screaming at them. Perhaps more so, as it's so considered.
Can I take it you wouldn't want your hellish exploits shared with your boss, colleagues, friends, family and church?
If you care about the disconnect between the orfeo they know, and the orfeo they'd be presented with, then surely Hell doesn't accurately reflect who you are? Or are you saying you wear a mask all the time, and this, now, is you? If so, why choose to wear the mask at all? Perhaps this isn't you after all.
Posts: 1112 | Registered: Mar 2010
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
Yorik said " be Christlike" , Christ said "pray for your enemies." ( rhetorically speaking-- sorry, Bingo.) Maybe it's worth a shot.
Christ said 'love your enemies' which means, I think, treating them with respect and dignity. I imagine it applying to prisoners etc. One doesn't let them off, but one loves them all the same.
I suppose IngoB would say 'respect' would be treating one as a worthwhile adversary. Which, actually, he does. I never expect a reply from him (because my questions are usually very bumbling and fumbling) but he does reply all the same.
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
( crosspost- To Byron.)
I actually do imagine myself saying most of the stuff I post in a measured, calm tone, no matter how strongly worded it is-- that us, in fact, how I argue. I rarely raise my voice. I've just been trained out if it. Interestingly, I rarely " hear" anyone else as shouting, UNLESS THEY DO THIS, or stuff like this??!!
And while I am here, everything you have said this far tells confirms what I calmly, measuredly posted a while back-- you prefer rhetorical bouncing around to being real. Expect that to piss people off if they are trying to be real with you, and don't be baffled if people are not giving you a chance when you refuse to be real.
[ 14. February 2015, 14:00: Message edited by: Kelly Alves ]
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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Byron
Shipmate
# 15532
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
quote:
Originally posted by Byron:
I doubt it. I avoid insults, misrepresentation, and own my mistakes. Most I've never pulled so much as a warning.
As I'm very fond of saying, acting like an utter arse (in your case, continually reframing the argument to suit you, reinterpreting the dictionary - again, to suit you - and pretending to be a hot-shot lawyer who knows jack about how the law actually works), is far, far worse than calling someone a bad name.
Given that I've posted up no personal details whatsoever, nor will I after reading the dogpile thread, I've not pretended jack. Of course I frame the argument to suit me, that's what you do if you want to give your position a shot. As for reinterpreting the dictionary, courts did it a long time before I hit the scene.
I've posted from time to time on everything from op-ed sites to movie forums, and have yet to be banned, so safe to say that most disagree with you about the relative importance of slinging abuse and framing the argument to your advantage. Which is fine, takes all sorts.
Least I've drawn some fire from IngoB for a spell.
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
Yorik said " be Christlike" , Christ said "pray for your enemies." ( rhetorically speaking-- sorry, Bingo.) Maybe it's worth a shot.
Christ said 'love your enemies' which means, I think, treating them with respect and dignity. I imagine it applying to prisoners etc. One doesn't let them off, but one loves them all the same.
I suppose IngoB would say 'respect' would be treating one as a worthwhile adversary. Which, actually, he does. I never expect a reply from him (because my questions are usually very bumbling and fumbling) but he does reply all the same.
Whateverabout Yorik, really-- his prim little comment just made me think about the prayer thing. It's not that I think arguing with Bingo is evil, I just think it's exhausting. More power to you if you have the stamina, but after a long day at work, prayer seems invitingly lazy to me.
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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Byron
Shipmate
# 15532
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
actually do imagine myself saying most of the stuff I post in a measured, calm tone, no matter how strongly worded it is-- that us, in fact, how I argue. I rarely raise my voice. I've just been trained out if it. Interestingly, I rarely " hear" anyone else as shouting, UNLESS THEY DO THIS, or stuff like this??!!
And while I am here, everything you have said this far tells confirms what I calmly, measuredly posted a while back-- you prefer rhetorical bouncing around to being real. Expect that to piss people off if they are trying to be real with you, and don't be baffled if people are not giving you a chance when you refuse to be real.
You called me a sick fuck who exploits people's deaths. You didn't have the sense or decency to apologize, even by PM. If you expect me to give a damn what you think about anything until you do, you're dreaming.
Real enough for you?
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
What do I have to apologize for? Being mean in Hell? For saying what I thought? For getting pissed off at watching someone deliberately wind up someone I have a ton of affection for, and express a great deal of glee at doing so? Fuck that. Everything you were saying at the time gave me the impression you were less concerned about the issue at hand, and more interested in treating orfeo like a hockey puck. I got that idea from ( here's me shouting) STUFF YOU YOURSELF SAID.
Whether or not orf make it easy for you to string him along is another issue, but you were fucking hectoring him about something he was clearly passionate about. And you pretty much said you were doing it. If you are gonna giggle at his reaction to you, how can you turn around and get all butthurt at my rhetoric? You can't have it both ways.
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Byron:
I've posted from time to time on everything from op-ed sites to movie forums, and have yet to be banned, so safe to say that most disagree with you about the relative importance of slinging abuse and framing the argument to your advantage. Which is fine, takes all sorts.
Well bully for them. All that means is you've only recently become an arse on the internet.
And I do notice you're up to your usual tricks even in this little aside: I said "continually reframing the argument to suit you", a fact which you conveniently ignore. Well done.
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Forward the New Republic
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
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IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
There is a clear pattern to your posts on that thread:
1. Stephen Fry is being dishonest.
I called you on this, so you qualified it
2. This is a 'technical' dishonesty
and then finally
3. This is just your opinion, based on the balance of probabilities as you see it.
Of course, if you actually believed that and were not just randomly spouting shite, believing that it exists inside your head and therefore it must be true - if you really believed that on the balance of probabilities he would not say that if he met God, you'd have said it in the first place.
This is just so absurd...
Here is my original post. There is nothing in that post about Mr Fry that I have to take back. There is nothing in that post about Mr Fry that I have taken back.
You asked me to clarify what I said.
I did.
You asked me again what I meant by something.
I responded.
You had yet another question about it.
I provided another answer.
... and at that point I had pretty much clarified my position as much as was humanly possible, and hence upon further repetitive and uncomprehending questioning from you ...
I answered unfailingly, trying ever new ways of somehow getting my point across.
Yes, there is a pattern here. It is the pattern of one side, that would be me, acting like one should in a discussion. And of the other side, that would be you, acting like a complete idiot on a mission to become offended.
In consequence, we have landed here. In a place where stupidity and nastiness wrestle for supremacy. And you know why the vultures are circling here? Because this is a matter of great moral importance? Because people give a shit? No, it's because people are bored. That's all.
So I say it one more time. Let's call it quits. You have exercised your offensive offendedness. I have exercised my not-giving-a-shit-ness. A good number of people have pretended that it matters one way or the other. The sum total of what this is ever going to achieve has been reached. From now on it will be just bored people desperately fanning some flame or the other to keep their boredom at bay just a little bit longer.
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
Interesting. I appear to have hit a nerve. Good to know you have some.
I'm not unnerved by the content, but by the reference and quotation free paraphrasing, and pretending that "what I remember IngoB said" is identical with what I actually said.
Of course these discussions are between real people. We are not quite there yet with Turing bots, though on occasion I do wonder... Of course these real people have real emotions, and most of them probably have some kind of real life as well.
But when real people with real emotions go to a movie theatre, they expect other people to stop talking and to switch off their mobile phones. Why? Because communication is wrong? Because they are against friendship and expressing your emotions? No, because they went to the movie theatre to watch a movie, and they can reasonably expect that other people going to the movie theatre also are there to watch a movie, not to chat with their friends and family. They have removed much of reality to enjoy one specific thing, it is an intentionally artificial setting aimed at a particular purpose. People do not behave like "real people" in a movie theatre, if by "real" you mean the full spectrum of human behaviour and emotions. People switch to a specific behaviour repertoire appropriate to what they are trying to achieve, they put on their "movie goer" persona. Even if they import relationships and emotions, e.g., by going to the movies with their boy/girlfriend, then they will express that in terms of "what one does at the movies".
Well, I go to Purgatory to have serious discussions about things vaguely related to my religion. I think that's the purpose of that place. If you go to that place and are upset by serious discussions, then that's decidedly your problem, and the solution is that you should leave, not that the people who enjoy their discussion there should stop and cater to your needs. And yes, I know that there are different types of discussions styles. And that's OK. But that's the point. It really is OK. Until the day I hear from the H&As that the way I discuss is not allowed anymore, I will discuss the way I like to discuss. And if you don't like that, then that is decidedly your problem. I just don't care. At all. I never have, I never will. If you feel some other style of discussion is better, go right ahead and use it. Do what you wish. I will do what I wish.
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
He really does piss a lot of people off. So I'd like him to think about why this is.
One ... more ... time.
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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
He really does piss a lot of people off. So I'd like him to think about why this is.
One ... more ... time.
I know, I know.
I was asked what I would like you to do, not what you do do.
![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Byron:
Can I take it you wouldn't want your hellish exploits shared with your boss, colleagues, friends, family and church?
Numerous people at work and other friends and family are aware I'm a Hellhost. I'm sure my church would know if I had one.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
Boogie-- see what I mean? Spaghetti wrangling.
Bingo- dude, if Kevin Meany is one of your role models, that explains worlds. ![[Snigger]](graemlins/snigger.gif)
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
And yes, I know that there are different types of discussions styles. And that's OK. But that's the point. It really is OK. Until the day I hear from the H&As that the way I discuss is not allowed anymore, I will discuss the way I like to discuss. And if you don't like that, then that is decidedly your problem. I just don't care. At all. I never have, I never will. If you feel some other style of discussion is better, go right ahead and use it. Do what you wish. I will do what I wish.
And there is the sociopathy writ large. The law is the sum total of what I care about, and if my neighbours all hate me I don't care so long as the cops don't come round.
No, Ingo, it's not OK. It's legal. Many a person has succeeded in completely pissing off their entire community while staying on the right side of the law.
[ 14. February 2015, 14:43: Message edited by: orfeo ]
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
Boogie-- see what I mean? Spaghetti wrangling.
Plaiting sand
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Yorick:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
And this is why we all end up feeling like he's treating us as props, not peers.
Which is why I loathe him.
How Christlike of you.
Is it? I wouldn't have thought so, but you'd know best, wouldn't you?
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
Many a person has succeeded in completely pissing off their entire community while staying on the right side of the law.
Ah, the heroes of old!
Anyway, here's a version more suited to you.
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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
If that was an effort to make a joke out of my sexuality by labelling me with a gay stereotype, then you are beneath contempt.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Belle Ringer
Shipmate
# 13379
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Posted
As was said earlier:
quote:
Originally posted by Macrina:
quote:
Originally posted by Bob Two-Owls:
Hey, lay off IngoB, he provides a valuable service around here. A few years ago I was wavering on the brink of going back to the Catholic Church, everyone here was giving me great advice and encouragement and I was about two days from an appointment for a chat at my local church.
Then IngoB waded in and I cancelled.
Me too!
And me.
Not Ingo only, or he'd be just a quirk, but a number of Catholics on the Ship including Ingo explaining in detail what that church teaches have so startled and dismayed me that they have totally turned me off the RCC. I no longer even bother to read what the sometimes newsworthy Pope says.
I was trained as a child to deeply admire the RCC. Ingo has made clear that what I was taught to admire as absolutely not what the RCC is at it's core. And that's a real service. I can stop wondering if the RCC has anything wholesome or beneficial to teach me about God or life. Thanks Ingo!
Posts: 5830 | From: Texas | Registered: Jan 2008
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Firenze
Ordinary decent pagan
# 619
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Posted
Maybe that's his mission? Keeping out the riff-raff.
Posts: 17302 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Jun 2001
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IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
If that was an effort to make a joke out of my sexuality by labelling me with a gay stereotype, then you are beneath contempt.
And yet, of course it is perfectly fine for you to write things like this.
You have so internalised your double standards, you can't even see them any longer.
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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004
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agingjb
Shipmate
# 16555
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Posted
Well, yes, IngoB reminds me that I don't accept the claims of the RCC, and that's no criticism of IngoB.
But looking around the ship I wonder if there is any denomination that some poster hasn't reminded me why I'm not part of it.
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Refraction Villanelles
Posts: 464 | From: Southern England | Registered: Jul 2011
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
If that was an effort to make a joke out of my sexuality by labelling me with a gay stereotype, then you are beneath contempt.
And yet, of course it is perfectly fine for you to write things like this.
You have so internalised your double standards, you can't even see them any longer.
Double standard? I was writing about you, the abhorrent individual, not making jokes about you being a stuck-up German.
Still, it's nice to know that I've got to you and made you angry. You have feelings after all. Entirely feelings for yourself of course, sad imitation of a living creature that you are, but it's something.
You clearly know more about Judy Garland than I do, by the way.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
"Vicious."
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
Originally posted by Byron:
quote:
So yeah, Hell might work as a test of who were are in the dark. If so, the answer's mighty depressing. Ever the optimist, I prefer to think of it as an ongoing, uncontrolled Stanford prison experiment, which makes a lot of folk act out-of-character.
This says more about you, and Bingo, than it does about the Ship.
Online interaction is different to offline interaction, but so is work to family to friends to anything else. They all have differerent constraints and freedoms, so they have potentially different behaviours.
So, I might have a slightly different presentation on SOF, but no one who has known me for any length of time would view it as out of character.
But then, I view SOF as something of a community which, obviously Bingo doesn't and you do not appear to.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
You have exercised your offensive offendedness. I have exercised my not-giving-a-shit-ness. A good number of people have pretended that it matters one way or the other. The sum total of what this is ever going to achieve has been reached. From now on it will be just bored people desperately fanning some flame or the other to keep their boredom at bay just a little bit longer.
I think this is half right. Certainly the spark that lit the tinder of is-Fry-a-liar doesn't really seem worth more dissection and emotion. On the other hand I think the good number of people are not pretending or bored - there is a lot of pent-up angst here that emerges every IngoB-hell-call.
My own view is that the phenomena that is IngoB posting on SoF is not going to change, I appreciate it sometimes and other times I stay out of its way.
IngoB, I wouldn't deny that a great deal of thought goes into your postings and there are flashes of brilliance. It seems mistaken to me to describe this as trolling, although the end result of your style is obviously an inevitable wind-up for a number of other posters.
Some of these people are giving vent to that here, and will continue to do so every time an IngoB-hell-call comes up, and I think they are genuine, not just bored.
I wonder if you can show any signs of working towards understand that.
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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon
Posts: 12277 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2004
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QLib
Bad Example
# 43
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Posted
Late to this, but ...
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
He's a sick fuck of a bully who has very cleverly found a way and a place to beat people up, but do it just this side of the line, to not get planked. It's quite clever, as befits his clockwork Jesuitical mind. It's also sick.
What have the Jesuits done to deserve me, and what have I done to deserved them?
Actually - and I really mean this, it's not just some "boom, boom" joke - I think mt is being pretty unfair to Jesuits, who (in my limited experience) are often charming, complex, deep and, in a sense, open-minded. Well, not clockwork-minded anyway.
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Tradition is the handing down of the flame, not the worship of the ashes Gustav Mahler.
Posts: 8913 | From: Page 28 | Registered: May 2001
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RooK
1 of 6
# 1852
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Posted
It is very amusing to assume that how people interact in close proximity - and, apparently, in a setting where it is not unreasonable to exchange physical blows - is the "most real" version of a person. Where for the word "amusing" you can translate as "idiotically stupid".
I submit for consideration that exchanges on the internet, especially modally-free-ish ones like Hell, merely remove filtering elements. Some people can use this freedom for expressing un-genuine ideas - trolling, and the like. But this is something that is usually perceivable, especially over multiple posts. Magnificently, this freedom allows people to get down to the gritty business of saying what they actually think. Even if they're unpopular ideas. Even if a person is not a towering brute with kung-fu skills. Even if they've never felt able to admit these ideas to their nearest and dearest. Long live the internet.
You call it a dogpile. Usually, I merely see a large number of people having an opportunity to be honest.
You call it gratuitous name-calling. I mostly see people finding creative ways to more-accurately express their opinions and feelings about somebody's posts.
Byron, you are a particularly loathsome being. You accuse others of affecting personalities while also shrugging off your pathetic point-scoring mode of pretend discussion. You seem to value decorum in words used, while having essentially no consideration for how people actually feel about the miserable shit you say. The statistical probability of you developing a clue seems quite tiny, leaving people with the impression that you really are just a talking lower intestine. Look forward to being told this often, asshole.
Posts: 15274 | From: Portland, Oregon, USA, Earth | Registered: Nov 2001
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Chesterbelloc
Tremendous trifler
# 3128
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Posted
Damn it. Just lost hundreds of words of deathless prose to the fickle post reply box. Maybe for the best.
In sum, too many people here pretend - time and time again - that what they object to about IngoB is his "tone". Well, bullshit. For everyone for whom the principle problem is style, there's about a ten for who the problem is that IngoB beats them in arguments. Simple as that. Said it before, saying it again, already got a bag of "IngoB's poodle" t-shirts, thanks anyway.
What makes some people - I'm talking mainly about those who drag him to Hell and those who just jump all over him when someone else does - pissed off is that IngoB can refute them because he has thought through his beliefs/positions/argument much better than they have and/or can argue for them better. For such people, he leaves them with no plausible rational defense of their arguments.
Add to this that IngoB is very "conservative" in a broadly very "liberal" community and that many people on the liberal side have invested very heavily - often very sanctimoniously - in the idea that their positions are morally superior to IngoB's (usually Catholic ones), and this leads to a kind of moral outrage which makes some people feel justified in slinging whatever kind of brickbat at IngoB they choose.
Many of these people have never really questioned the moral superiority of their positions and have often never heard the "conservative" ideas argued for so coherently, if at all. They often haven't encountered anyone who is prepared to take them on over their shibboleths, nor anyone who doesn't basically allow them to be self-evident. They often REALLY don't like it when they do, especially with an opponent who is not inclined to leave them the fig-leaf of "agree to disagree" instead of pertinaciously demolishing them. That must be annoying.
But the solution for these people is really simple: get better fucking positions or get better at arguing for your existing ones. It is not to keep calling IngoB to Hell because his beating you pisses you off. Nine times out of ten, it is IngoB's opponents who pick the fight with him. Mr Cheesey's performance on that thread was ridiculously touchy and aggressive, for example, and his arguments have been piss-poor (IMHO).
Given the massive preponderance of opinion against most of IngoB's core beliefs and in favour of the liberal line on things on these boards, ganging up on him over and over again, purportedly over his "style" of arguing is just vindictive and self-indulgent. Why not instead just, you know, grow the fuck up?
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"[A] moral, intellectual, and social step below Mudfrog."
Posts: 4199 | From: Athens Borealis | Registered: Aug 2002
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Chesterbelloc:
Given the massive preponderance of opinion against most of IngoB's core beliefs and in favour of the liberal line on things on these boards, ganging up on him over and over again, purportedly over his "style" of arguing is just vindictive and self-indulgent. Why not instead just, you know, grow the fuck up?
You really have not understood one word of this thread have you?
(Kelly, pass me some more of that sand which requires plaiting!)
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by QLib:
Actually - and I really mean this, it's not just some "boom, boom" joke - I think mt is being pretty unfair to Jesuits, who (in my limited experience) are often charming, complex, deep and, in a sense, open-minded. Well, not clockwork-minded anyway.
You're right. I'm playing on a cheap stereotype and it's past its sell-by date. I'll try to come up with a new metaphor for IngoB's mode of presentation that doesn't insult the SJ, who as you say are by and large very good people, now that they've given up burning Protestants, which I don't believe they've done in centuries.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
Originally posted by Chesterbelloc:
quote:
the problem is that IngoB quotes the Magisterium and pretends that beats any argument. Simple as that.
Yeah, there's more than ten of us. We just take it in turns.
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Forward the New Republic
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
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Leaf
Shipmate
# 14169
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Posted
Chesterbelloc: it seems to me a case of differing expectations of Purgatory. Purgatory itself is ambivalent about its nature, describing itself as a place for "debate and discussion." Which is it? There is overlap but also areas of non-intersection.
It is fair to point out the liberal-ish ethos of most posters in Purgatory. Along with that comes a liberal-ish perception that almost all points of view are valid. If you arrive in Purgatory expecting a casual coffee-house atmosphere of exchange of points of view - only to have one person come in wearing a barrister's wig, with a briefcase full of documents, intending to make a case and win it - you can see the mismatched expectations.
It reminds me of the saying that in social interactions, Americans want to be friendly and Europeans want to be correct. Each finds the other tedious and annoying.
It seems to me that you perceive Purg as being about debate, and if it is, IngoB makes very strong cases and is always technically correct ("the best kind of correct"). You would therefore think that "the other side" are sore losers. But if they came expecting friendly discussion rather than the framework of opponents and debate, it would be natural that they would be annoyed.
quote:
get better fucking positions
Excellent advice. Happy Valentine's Day! ![[Axe murder]](graemlins/lovedrops.gif)
Posts: 2786 | From: the electrical field | Registered: Oct 2008
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