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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Hell: IngoB you are a self-righteous prick
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
What IngoB does is easy:- Build a logical construct that is internally consistent. It doesn't matter if it's real or true, just that you put a lot of effort into the buttresses of internal logic. When someone attacks your structure, those are your first defence, and they shoud hold in most cases.
- If someone does spot an inconsistency in your logic, don't engage their point. Just repeat some argument of your internal logic that is more or less close to what your opponent has said.
- If your opponent says that you haven't addressed their point, just say "But I have!" and state another argument of your logical construct (it helps if you can formulate them in many different ways). Whatever you do, keep the discussion within your logical construct, and the argument will always be on your terms.
- If your opponent insists and it becomes clear that (s)he really has shown an inconsistency in your argument, simply don't answer his point. In extreme cases, walk away from the discussion (IngoB has done this with me three times already last year only).
It's easy. Of course it takes effort, and undoubtedly IngoB has put a tremendous amount of effort in setting up his buttresses. But effort isn't the same as cleverness. It also helps that IngoB has a lot of book wisdom, but that isn't the same as cleverness either.
Also, it isn't the same as being right. In fact, you can use this trick to argue just about anything. On another forum, just for fun, I argued like this one time that the world is flat. I can keep it going for dozens of pages. It is also a trick that is used a lot by people with an anti-Muslim stance in my country; their internal logic is very strong. And IngoB isn't the only one who uses this trick on the Ship, Marvin the Martian does it too sometimes when he does his "tax is theft" schtick (but not nearly as good as Ingo).
A discussion isn't the same as a fight between two castles to see who has the strongest buttresses. Even if your internal logic is invincible, your argument can still be wrong. I'm sure that IngoB could use the same trick to argue just about anything. He could easily win an argument showing that the world is flat, I'm sure he wouldn't break a sweat. If it were just about internal logic and book wisdom, he could win anything. But that doesn't make him right.
Because that's all it is: a trick that makes you look more clever than you really are. It's rather pathetic really.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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Chesterbelloc
Tremendous trifler
# 3128
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Leaf:
It is fair to point out the liberal-ish ethos of most posters in Purgatory. Along with that comes a liberal-ish perception that almost all points of view are valid.
Actually, that's not quite the whole picture, because also along with that comes a typical-of-many liberal perception that some points of view are not "valid" but unacceptably wrong - and many of them happen to be RC dead-horsey ones.
quote:
Originally posted by Leaf:
It seems to me that you perceive Purg as being about debate, and if it is, IngoB makes very strong cases and is always technically correct ("the best kind of correct"). You would therefore think that "the other side" are sore losers. But if they came expecting friendly discussion rather than the framework of opponents and debate, it would be natural that they would be annoyed.
But by and large it's not the ones who are really looking just for a good chat who call IngoB to Hell or have a bash at him there - it's almost always those who want to have it out hammer and tongs with him, to trounce his ideas as he wants to trounce theirs, and give just as good as they get on the "opponents" front. Like Mr Cheesey. Funny that.
quote:
Originally posted by Leaf:
quote:
get better fucking positions
Excellent advice. Happy Valentine's Day! ![[Axe murder]](graemlins/lovedrops.gif)
Um, er... ![[Hot and Hormonal]](icon_redface.gif) ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
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"[A] moral, intellectual, and social step below Mudfrog."
Posts: 4199 | From: Athens Borealis | Registered: Aug 2002
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Chesterbelloc:
(IMHO).
WGAFWYOI?
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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saysay
Ship's Praying Mantis
# 6645
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Posted
Wait, Orfeo just called out IngoB for legalism?
Splutter.
(I miss Gort).
quote:
Originally posted by RooK:
Byron, you are a particularly loathsome being. You accuse others of affecting personalities while also shrugging off your pathetic point-scoring mode of pretend discussion. You seem to value decorum in words used, while having essentially no consideration for how people actually feel about the miserable shit you say. The statistical probability of you developing a clue seems quite tiny, leaving people with the impression that you really are just a talking lower intestine. Look forward to being told this often, asshole.
Thank you.
I'd call him to Hell but I'm too sick of the RL behavior of those who stand on the line between legal and illegal and do the Hokey Pokey without ever turning around and noticing that there's an ideal they should be striving for rather than just the punishment they're seeking to avoid to engage this shit online.
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"It's been a long day without you, my friend
I'll tell you all about it when I see you again"
"'Oh sweet baby purple Jesus' - that's a direct quote from a 9 year old - shoutout to purple Jesus."
Posts: 2943 | From: The Wire | Registered: May 2004
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Chesterbelloc
Tremendous trifler
# 3128
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
quote:
Originally posted by Chesterbelloc:
Given the massive preponderance of opinion against most of IngoB's core beliefs and in favour of the liberal line on things on these boards, ganging up on him over and over again, purportedly over his "style" of arguing is just vindictive and self-indulgent. Why not instead just, you know, grow the fuck up?
You really have not understood one word of this thread have you?
I beg leave to maintain that I have, actually. Don't make me insist - you won't like me when I'm insisty.
[ 14. February 2015, 18:28: Message edited by: Chesterbelloc ]
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"[A] moral, intellectual, and social step below Mudfrog."
Posts: 4199 | From: Athens Borealis | Registered: Aug 2002
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Chesterbelloc:
But by and large it's not the ones who are really looking just for a good chat who call IngoB to Hell or have a bash at him there - it's almost always those who want to have it out hammer and tongs with him, to trounce his ideas as he wants to trounce theirs, and give just as good as they get on the "opponents" front. Like Mr Cheesey. Funny that.
I've been pretty fucking clear that the issue here is the way IngoB behaves like he is literally spouting the thoughts of the deity rather than his ideas.
If you had more than the comprehension skills of a petulant 13 year old schoolgirl leaping to bitch-slap someone who you think disses a homie, you'd know that.
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arse
Posts: 10697 | Registered: Sep 2002
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Chesterbelloc
Tremendous trifler
# 3128
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Chesterbelloc:
(IMHO).
WGAFWYOI?
Who gives a fuck whom yawping Orthos imprecate? Why, I should imagine their confessors do, but that's matter for them.
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"[A] moral, intellectual, and social step below Mudfrog."
Posts: 4199 | From: Athens Borealis | Registered: Aug 2002
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Chesterbelloc
Tremendous trifler
# 3128
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
I've been pretty fucking clear that the issue here is the way IngoB behaves like he is literally spouting the thoughts of the deity rather than his ideas.
If you had more than the comprehension skills of a petulant 13 year old schoolgirl leaping to bitch-slap someone who you think disses a homie, you'd know that.
Uhuh.
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"[A] moral, intellectual, and social step below Mudfrog."
Posts: 4199 | From: Athens Borealis | Registered: Aug 2002
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saysay
Ship's Praying Mantis
# 6645
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
quote:
Originally posted by saysay:
I've also gotten really sick of liberals telling other people what they really think and feel as if they're too stupid to know.
Except it's not just liberals that do that.
FWIW I'm also getting sick of the 'but they do it too/ they started it' arguments. IRL IME liberals do this far more than conservatives - often with some condescending blather about how you just need to be educated or schooled in something and then you'll see it the same way they do when the person they're talking to knows more than they do about the subject.
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"It's been a long day without you, my friend
I'll tell you all about it when I see you again"
"'Oh sweet baby purple Jesus' - that's a direct quote from a 9 year old - shoutout to purple Jesus."
Posts: 2943 | From: The Wire | Registered: May 2004
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Chesterbelloc:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Chesterbelloc:
(IMHO).
WGAFWYOI?
Who gives a fuck whom yawping Orthos imprecate? Why, I should imagine their confessors do, but that's matter for them.
Ah, the old tu quoque. IngoB's favorite tactic; no wonder it's yours, as you're clearly his lickspittle.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Chesterbelloc
Tremendous trifler
# 3128
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
you're clearly his lickspittle.
I warn you, to make this old canard more interesting, I've turned it into a drinking game: I have to take a big swig of booze every time. My wife is abroad ("Or she'd be my husband!!!") so I've no-one to check I log off before I collapse, pissed as a pug on port slammers.
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"[A] moral, intellectual, and social step below Mudfrog."
Posts: 4199 | From: Athens Borealis | Registered: Aug 2002
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
If you wish to make a drinking game of truth, as you have here, and stay sober, you might want to watch FoxNews.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Ariel
Shipmate
# 58
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
I've been pretty fucking clear that the issue here is the way IngoB behaves like he is literally spouting the thoughts of the deity rather than his ideas.
I agree he comes across like someone regurgitating doctrine rather than actually thinking.
Candidate for Bore of the Year, IMO. The lengthy point-by-point rebuttals are tedious in the extreme - stop getting bogged down in all the little details and just focus on the major issues. And do us all a favour, give up Purgatory for Lent.
Posts: 25445 | Registered: May 2001
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Leaf
Shipmate
# 14169
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Chesterbelloc:
... along with that comes a typical-of-many liberal perception that some points of view are not "valid" but unacceptably wrong - and many of them happen to be RC dead-horsey ones.
Notice my weasel word "almost" all points of view being valid. What you are noticing is liberal-ish discomfort with insistence on one world view and acquiescence with it (and its moral demands) as representative of all reality - a variant of the "how to tolerate intolerance" dilemma. It correlates in Purg with RC only because it tends to be conservative RCs posting this point of view. If Purg had vocal conservative Calvinists, Anabaptists, or even Muslims posting dead-camel issues, the reaction would be the same. Mudfrog gets stick for being a conservative SA; any other conservative SA's would feel the same as you do.
Posts: 2786 | From: the electrical field | Registered: Oct 2008
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Tubbs
Miss Congeniality
# 440
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Chesterbelloc:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
you're clearly his lickspittle.
I warn you, to make this old canard more interesting, I've turned it into a drinking game: I have to take a big swig of booze every time. My wife is abroad ("Or she'd be my husband!!!") so I've no-one to check I log off before I collapse, pissed as a pug on port slammers.
Port slammers?! I hope you've got plenty of coffee in for the morning. You are so going to need it!!!
OTH, drinking whilst reading Ingo's posts might make them more comprehensible.
Tubbs
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"It's better to keep your mouth shut and be thought a fool than open it up and remove all doubt" - Dennis Thatcher. My blog. Decide for yourself which I am
Posts: 12701 | From: Someplace strange | Registered: Jun 2001
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Chesterbelloc:
For everyone for whom the principle problem is style, there's about a ten for who the problem is that IngoB beats them in arguments.
Ironically, this is a perfect description of the problem, thanks to the fact that giving someone a beating also means assaulting them.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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saysay
Ship's Praying Mantis
# 6645
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
As was said earlier:
And me. ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
Not Ingo only, or he'd be just a quirk, but a number of Catholics on the Ship including Ingo explaining in detail what that church teaches have so startled and dismayed me that they have totally turned me off the RCC. I no longer even bother to read what the sometimes newsworthy Pope says.
I was trained as a child to deeply admire the RCC. Ingo has made clear that what I was taught to admire as absolutely not what the RCC is at it's core. And that's a real service. I can stop wondering if the RCC has anything wholesome or beneficial to teach me about God or life. Thanks Ingo!
Oddly, IngoB has had the opposite effect on me.
I'm not sure I can accept what the church teaches, but I'm more comfortable attending church there than anywhere else.*
I was raised with the belief that the RCC was the whore of Babylon and Catholics couldn't be trusted because they're more loyal to the Pope than their current community. So, ya know, it takes all sorts of people to make up the world.
*Increasingly true over the past few years; completely true ever since there was a physical altercation between a man and a woman at the last Piskie service I attended.
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"It's been a long day without you, my friend
I'll tell you all about it when I see you again"
"'Oh sweet baby purple Jesus' - that's a direct quote from a 9 year old - shoutout to purple Jesus."
Posts: 2943 | From: The Wire | Registered: May 2004
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RuthW
liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Leaf:
[QB] Chesterbelloc: it seems to me a case of differing expectations of Purgatory. Purgatory itself is ambivalent about its nature, describing itself as a place for "debate and discussion." Which is it? There is overlap but also areas of non-intersection.
It is fair to point out the liberal-ish ethos of most posters in Purgatory. Along with that comes a liberal-ish perception that almost all points of view are valid. If you arrive in Purgatory expecting a casual coffee-house atmosphere of exchange of points of view - only to have one person come in wearing a barrister's wig, with a briefcase full of documents, intending to make a case and win it - you can see the mismatched expectations.
It reminds me of the saying that in social interactions, Americans want to be friendly and Europeans want to be correct. Each finds the other tedious and annoying.
It seems to me that you perceive Purg as being about debate, and if it is, IngoB makes very strong cases and is always technically correct ("the best kind of correct"). You would therefore think that "the other side" are sore losers. But if they came expecting friendly discussion rather than the framework of opponents and debate, it would be natural that they would be annoyed.
People expecting merely an exchange of viewpoints in Purgatory would do well to read the board's header and guidelines.
Posts: 24453 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001
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Byron
Shipmate
# 15532
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
What do I have to apologize for? Being mean in Hell?
Well yes, 'cause if you mean what you said, posting in a themed forum doesn't give you a pass.
quote:
For saying what I thought? For getting pissed off at watching someone deliberately wind up someone I have a ton of affection for, and express a great deal of glee at doing so? Fuck that. Everything you were saying at the time gave me the impression you were less concerned about the issue at hand, and more interested in treating orfeo like a hockey puck. I got that idea from ( here's me shouting) STUFF YOU YOURSELF SAID.
Whether or not orf make it easy for you to string him along is another issue, but you were fucking hectoring him about something he was clearly passionate about. And you pretty much said you were doing it. If you are gonna giggle at his reaction to you, how can you turn around and get all butthurt at my rhetoric? You can't have it both ways.
And if you'd expressed it like that first time around, we'd have something to say to each other. You didn't. You accused me of exploiting people's deaths.
You talk about being real. OK, so in RL, you lock someone's gaze, and say, coolly, "You're a sick fuck, you exploit people's deaths," or words to that effect?
No. You don't run your mouth like that. You do it here, where you're a boss, where the rules back your play.
So no, Kelly, talking to me like that, you're not being real. You're faking it more than a bill of sale for the Brooklyn Bridge. And hey, that's your prerogative. What's bizarre is that you'd trashtalk me like that, and then expect, for a second, me to give the slightest weight to your opinion of me.
For realz.
Posts: 1112 | Registered: Mar 2010
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Byron:
What's bizarre is that you'd trashtalk me like that, and then expect, for a second, me to give the slightest weight to your opinion of me.
For realz.
You think your folksy yes ma'am shtick allows you to get away with saying, and doing, all kinds of shit just because you don't use expletives? It doesn't.
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Forward the New Republic
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
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Byron
Shipmate
# 15532
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by RooK:
[...] Byron, you are a particularly loathsome being. You accuse others of affecting personalities while also shrugging off your pathetic point-scoring mode of pretend discussion. You seem to value decorum in words used, while having essentially no consideration for how people actually feel about the miserable shit you say. The statistical probability of you developing a clue seems quite tiny, leaving people with the impression that you really are just a talking lower intestine. Look forward to being told this often, asshole.
And what "miserable shit" is this? The Hell thread where a bunch of you slung abuse at a named judge, and (much worse) demanded a kid busted on a chickenshit misdemeanor pot charge get thrown in lockup 'cause (and here's the killer) the judge mentioned, in passing, his school. Without taking the trouble to check whether his sentence was too lenient (turns out, it wasn't).
Or the one where a bunch of you went apoplectic over whether "speech" could be used figuratively, to refer to something other than a set of vocal chords in action.
So what about how people "actually feel" is supposed to make me stop and take pause? Especially when the feelings belong to those who're liberal in the extreme with dishing out abuse, and clearly couldn't give a tinker's cuss about the feelings of anyone not in their (pretty damn arbitrary) favor.
Like I said, doubt I agree with IngoB on much of anything, but in both our cases, I see hurt feelings being used, very selectively, as a silencing device. That you sling abuse while you demand respect for people's feelings takes hypocrisy to heights approached only by televangelists caught hoovering blow off a nightwalker's rosy cheeks.
Posts: 1112 | Registered: Mar 2010
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Byron:
Or the one where a bunch of you went apoplectic over whether "speech" could be used figuratively, to refer to something other than a set of vocal chords in action.
Oh God, he still doesn't get it.
Nope. Nope. Not worth the time. At all.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Byron:
Or the one where a bunch of you went apoplectic over whether "speech" could be used figuratively, to refer to something other than a set of vocal chords in action.
I can't believe that even you believe that this is what the people on that thread were schooling you about. Somebody who took that away from that thread would have difficulty forming sentences, and you've formed far too many for me to believe it.
Then again, given what you said on that thread, perhaps this method of estimating your intelligence is severely flawed.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Byron
Shipmate
# 15532
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
You think your folksy yes ma'am shtick allows you to get away with saying, and doing, all kinds of shit just because you don't use expletives? It doesn't.
And again short on the specifics (OK, I get that you loathe arguing in the alternative). I just ran a tedious thread in Purg. where I asked for alternatives to "scoring points," and finally managed to drag out that the objection lay more in terminology than, well, "scoring points."
The disconnect between your rage at me, and anything I've actually done, is something to behold. I do declare, sir, I find it a positive curiosity (now that schtick is folksy; post ya quoted, not so much).
So, back to your own brand of malarkey, like throwing kids in prison to make some whacko point about social class, swivel-eyed rage at figurative language, and so on. It's left-field, I'll give it that.
Posts: 1112 | Registered: Mar 2010
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saysay
Ship's Praying Mantis
# 6645
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Byron:
You talk about being real. OK, so in RL, you lock someone's gaze, and say, coolly, "You're a sick fuck, you exploit people's deaths," or words to that effect?
No. You don't run your mouth like that. You do it here, where you're a boss, where the rules back your play.
Actually, if I was acting the way you were acting IRL, I'd expect Kelly to look me in the eye and say exactly that. She's one of the few women willing and able to use any means necessary to point out to me just how much of an ass I'm being (I don't always understand subtle hints).
If you would like to pretend that IRL we all live according to the etiquette rules you apparently live by, feel free to continue to do so. But you know nothing about most of our RL situations.
Oh, fuck, he just got me to engage.
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"It's been a long day without you, my friend
I'll tell you all about it when I see you again"
"'Oh sweet baby purple Jesus' - that's a direct quote from a 9 year old - shoutout to purple Jesus."
Posts: 2943 | From: The Wire | Registered: May 2004
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Byron:
And again short on the specifics (OK, I get that you loathe arguing in the alternative). I just ran a tedious thread in Purg. where I asked for alternatives to "scoring points," and finally managed to drag out that the objection lay more in terminology than, well, "scoring points."
![[brick wall]](graemlins/brick_wall.gif)
It's remarkable, given that you're one of the more verbose posters around here, how often you reduce words to 'semantics' and 'terminology'.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Byron:
Or the one where a bunch of you went apoplectic over whether "speech" could be used figuratively, to refer to something other than a set of vocal chords in action.
I can't believe that even you believe that this is what the people on that thread were schooling you about. Somebody who took that away from that thread would have difficulty forming sentences, and you've formed far too many for me to believe it.
Then again, given what you said on that thread, perhaps this method of estimating your intelligence is severely flawed.
It's a pretty spectacular example of historical revisionism, isn't it?
The very starting point was when he waltzed in to tell me that defamation wasn't speech. I'm pretty damn sure we all took it as a given that you can defame someone both vocally and in print.
[ 15. February 2015, 00:19: Message edited by: orfeo ]
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Byron:
I just ran a tedious thread in Purg. where I asked for alternatives to "scoring points," and finally managed to drag out that the objection lay more in terminology than, well, "scoring points."
You're just a wealth of misinformation. You RAN a thread? Seriously? You really don't understand how this place works, do you? You don't "run" a thread either in the sense of controlling it, or creating it like a newspaper column or an advert.
Terminology? You really, really, really don't get it. It's not the terminology orfeo (among others) was objecting to. It's the mindset that the terminology betrays.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Byron
Shipmate
# 15532
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
I can't believe that even you believe that this is what the people on that thread were schooling you about. Somebody who took that away from that thread would have difficulty forming sentences, and you've formed far too many for me to believe it.
Then again, given what you said on that thread, perhaps this method of estimating your intelligence is severely flawed.
Well no, actually, you got pissed 'cause I took on a bossman and wouldn't bow to king mob, but that's such a common occurrence round here I needed a more specific tag.
Speaking of the majority fallacy so many love so dearly, since most every other discussion forum survives just fine without a snakepit, by your own rules, you should just harrow this place and be done with it.
You won't, of course, just as you won't admit Hell isn't about managing conflict, but giving our worst selves a playpen. You'll probably call IngbB back here in short order, and again demand he respect people's feelings. Or else.
Posts: 1112 | Registered: Mar 2010
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
The very starting point was when he waltzed in to tell me that defamation wasn't speech. I'm pretty damn sure we took it all as a given that you can defame someone both vocally and in print.
I liked the "incitement is speech plus some special magical ingredient that turns speech into incitement, but which is not itself speech" thing. That somebody could say that with a straight face, let alone maintain it over several pages, was a wonder to behold.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Byron:
Well no, actually, you got pissed 'cause I took on a bossman and wouldn't bow to king mob, but that's such a common occurrence round here I needed a more specific tag.
Tell you what, clue sink, how about you don't try to tell me what I am thinking or have thought in the past? Because you suck at it, and it just makes you look like a microphallic stomorrhetic.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Byron:
and wouldn't bow to king mob
You also wouldn't bow to several members of Congress, their professional researchers, your own New York Times article or every legal textbook printed in this galaxy.
I'm sure you pride yourself on being an "independent thinker". There are times, however, when that's just a euphemism for "person who got the wrong end of the stick and will hold onto it regardless of the merits, until his fingers bleed".
NB Only engaging because I have a cup of coffee to finish.
EDIT SIX MINUTES LATER: Damn, I got the milk and sugar dead-on perfect this time. This is bliss.
EDIT ANOTHER SEVEN MINUTES LATER: Okay, I'm happy now, which is an excellent reason to get the fuck out of this place immediately.
[ 15. February 2015, 00:36: Message edited by: orfeo ]
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
I liked the "incitement is speech plus some special magical ingredient that turns speech into incitement, but which is not itself speech" thing. That somebody could say that with a straight face, let alone maintain it over several pages, was a wonder to behold.
Yes, that was the great novelty. It's kind of a legal aether, really.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Byron:
You'll probably call IngbB back here in short order, and again demand he respect people's feelings. Or else.
Prediction isn't your strong point either. One begins to wonder if you have any strong points. No, I won't call IngoB to Hell, although once he's here I don't mind saying what is wrong with his attitude and the way he treats people as things to play with rather than as people.
Oh you meant "you" plural. Yeah, somebody will probably call him here again. That's what Hell is for. When someone offends you, you bring it here. It's that that difficult a concept. Because not all of us have managed to find a way to use Purgatory as a playpen for our worst attributes, as has IngoB. Not all of us can play passive aggression like a violin. We're imperfect, we admit it.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Byron
Shipmate
# 15532
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by saysay:
Actually, if I was acting the way you were acting IRL, I'd expect Kelly to look me in the eye and say exactly that. She's one of the few women willing and able to use any means necessary to point out to me just how much of an ass I'm being (I don't always understand subtle hints).
If you would like to pretend that IRL we all live according to the etiquette rules you apparently live by, feel free to continue to do so. But you know nothing about most of our RL situations.
Oh, fuck, he just got me to engage.
Actually no, you didn't. I would however be interested to see you reengage in the Purg Hate Crime thread, and pony up all that evidence of prosecutors fabricating hate crime enhancements, about which you spoke so very confidently. (Snarky comments about you being a hotshot lawyer sure to follow ... or not.)
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
You're just a wealth of misinformation. You RAN a thread? Seriously? You really don't understand how this place works, do you? You don't "run" a thread either in the sense of controlling it, or creating it like a newspaper column or an advert.
Oh hell's frickin' bells, turn of phrase already. No, I don't claim thread starters are Perry White.
quote:
Terminology? You really, really, really don't get it. It's not the terminology orfeo (among others) was objecting to. It's the mindset that the terminology betrays.
As opposed to ... what, exactly?
The mindset that wants racist insults criminalized because they might, somewhere down the line, turn some nut into an axe murderer, but spends hour after hour slinging insults on a bulletin board. The mindset that loathes adversarialism, but revels in personal abuse. That mindset.
Televangelist dope fiends, they don't got nothing on that shit!
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
You also wouldn't bow to several members of Congress, their professional researchers, your own New York Times article or every legal textbook printed in this galaxy.
I find it bizarre you think I need to bow to anything. I find it even more bizarre that you think arguments from authority aren't fallacies.
I posted up the controlling precedent off the bat, which is where the speech + acts formula comes from. I posted up further references to "symbolic speech," and acts being called "speech," right after. They weren't rebutted, they were shouted down.
quote:
I'm sure you pride yourself on being an "independent thinker". There are times, however, when that's just a euphemism for "person who got the wrong end of the stick and will hold onto it regardless of the merits, until his fingers bleed".
NB Only engaging because I have a cup of coffee to finish.
Strong and black, I hope.
You missed the whole damn point if you think I was on some "independent thinker" kick. What pissed me off was to see so many clearly intelligent people not only dismiss a mainstream position out-of-hand, but to be so damn cocksure about it as to sling insults in place of argument (I don't include you in that, you argued well between the snark).
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
I don't want to rehash the whole thread, but asI recall, many folk were agreeing with the opinion, but had problems with the phrasing. That is not " wholesale dismissal." You just kept shoving those comments across that "dismissal" line. That's the kind of shit that drives people to a froth. Which you admit you love, so why are you complaining?
I do concede that, had I seen you going after a friend of mine in real life the way you went at orf, I probably would have tossed a drink in your face before I called you a sick fuck. A message board does help redirect those kind of impulses.
[ 15. February 2015, 00:50: Message edited by: Kelly Alves ]
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Byron:
I find it bizarre you think I need to bow to anything. I find it even more bizarre that you think arguments from authority aren't fallacies.
When the argument is about what words mean, and the authorities are the people with the authority to define those words in the relevant contexts, it's not a fallacy. It's SOP.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Byron
Shipmate
# 15532
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
I don't want to rehash the whole thread, but asI recall, many folk were agreeing with the opinion, but had problems with the phrasing. That is not " wholesale dismissal." You just kept shoving those comments across that "dismissal" line. That's the kind of shit that drives people to a froth. Which you admit you love, so why are you complaining?
No, I don't love that kind of unreasoned fury over minutiae, weirded me out.
quote:
I do concede that, had I seen you going after a friend of mine in real life the way you went at orf, ...
Oh, what "way" is that, he started with the insults off the bat, I challenged his opinion. All your friends have you barge into their business, do they?
quote:
... I probably would have tossed a drink in your face before I called you a sick fuck. A message board does help redirect those kind of impulses.
Right before you challenged me to grass before breakfast ... sorry, wrong movie. Your fantasy's all film noir, you sashaying your stuff through the jazz club's pall as the femme fatale, oozing danger and moxy.
I'm getting some fascinating insights into people's wish-fulfillment here.
So, how many drinks you thrown outside this visage? How many folk you called a sick fuck to their face? How'd it go down? This is like a real old school dime novel.
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Palimpsest
Shipmate
# 16772
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by saysay:
FWIW I'm also getting sick of the 'but they do it too/ they started it' arguments. IRL IME liberals do this far more than conservatives - often with some condescending blather about how you just need to be educated or schooled in something and then you'll see it the same way they do when the person they're talking to knows more than they do about the subject.
Well it has been fun watching you blast the liberal offenderati while starting with... oh an article in a liberal magazine about being offended by a tenured professor being fired.
Of course your being offended at this act doesn't make you part of the offenderati. It is principled striving toward a better world by blaming liberals who are attacking your beloved southern culture.
Posts: 2990 | From: Seattle WA. US | Registered: Nov 2011
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
I wish my sis would post. She'd attest to the liquid tossing. Has happened maybe twice in my life, but if anyone could get me there, dude...
And again, I was pointing out, people weren't "frothing over minutae" -- at least some people-- they were specifying what they agreed with and what they didn't. The person who was frothing was the person who wouldn't accept anything less than total agreement.
As for that weird Jean Harlowe thing you just wrote-- that would be YOUR daydream, not mine.
![[Killing me]](graemlins/killingme.gif)
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Byron:
I find it bizarre you think I need to bow to anything. I find it even more bizarre that you think arguments from authority aren't fallacies.
And yet...
quote:
You missed the whole damn point if you think I was on some "independent thinker" kick. What pissed me off was to see so many clearly intelligent people not only dismiss a mainstream position out-of-hand, but to be so damn cocksure about it as to sling insults in place of argument.
Italics added.
Rejecting authority and precedent (the foundations of the common law system) and a list of people who know shit that don't agree with you - the entire point of which was to show you the sheer quantity of people who don't share your view, and yet claiming that your position is 'mainstream'.
But hey, you reject arguments of authority, right? Even while being in the 'mainstream'. Separate from the authorities.
Hmm.
I think we just found another candidate for the list of words that you use without much regard for their dictionary definition. The ability of the different parts of your brain to contribute to a single post while living in different universes is fascinating. I don't think I've ever seen anything quite like it.
Yes, okay, you successfully copied and pasted words out of a Supreme Court decision. Good Boy. What a pity, though, that you completely resist any attempt to explain to you that no-one else interprets those words in the way that you do, in your 'mainstream' of one.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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saysay
Ship's Praying Mantis
# 6645
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Byron:
quote:
Originally posted by saysay:
Actually, if I was acting the way you were acting IRL, I'd expect Kelly to look me in the eye and say exactly that. She's one of the few women willing and able to use any means necessary to point out to me just how much of an ass I'm being (I don't always understand subtle hints).
If you would like to pretend that IRL we all live according to the etiquette rules you apparently live by, feel free to continue to do so. But you know nothing about most of our RL situations.
Oh, fuck, he just got me to engage.
Actually no, you didn't. I would however be interested to see you reengage in the Purg Hate Crime thread, and pony up all that evidence of prosecutors fabricating hate crime enhancements, about which you spoke so very confidently. (Snarky comments about you being a hotshot lawyer sure to follow ... or not.)
Bzzzt.
Wrong side. I've been to prison for a principle I believe deeply in and I've known way too many people charged with ridiculous shit that wouldn't get an unofficial reprimand if it was done by a rich white bitch because the school to prison pipeline is working exactly the way some people want it to.
But thanks for playing.
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"It's been a long day without you, my friend
I'll tell you all about it when I see you again"
"'Oh sweet baby purple Jesus' - that's a direct quote from a 9 year old - shoutout to purple Jesus."
Posts: 2943 | From: The Wire | Registered: May 2004
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
But I do want to thank you for driving saysay to stick up for me. i thought she hated me. ![[Tear]](graemlins/tear.gif)
That is only one of the many weird things about this thread. Another is that Bingo's rebuttal about the Jesuits sent me into helpless giggles.
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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Byron
Shipmate
# 15532
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Patdys:
Byron,
May I suggest you take a brief break from posting on this thread. It would allow some of the heat to dissipate.
Tried that one first time around. Posted up an apology for not quitting sooner. As I'd yet to be inducted into the ways of the damned, felt bad for dragging it out with orfeo.
Response: continued abuse, followed by my getting tetchy at people for keeping it going, greeted by, yup, that hellish reflex. I may have been lectured on not respecting people's feelings, I forget.
So yeah.
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Leaf
Shipmate
# 14169
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
People expecting merely an exchange of viewpoints in Purgatory would do well to read the board's header and guidelines.
Indeed, but the "feel" of a board - I apologize for the vagueness, but I can't think of a better word - cannot be fully encompassed by the header and guidelines. It takes a while to get the feel of a board, at least for me. Charitably, I suspect some people really do have different expectations and are put off by unexpected challenge. Less charitably, I suspect that in some cases Chesterbelloc might be right about would-be opponents changing tack when they're losing.
I'm still struggling to get a handle on "Faithfree" in The Eighth Day, where all this occurred. Yes, there is a brief description of its purpose ("Faithfree is a place to discuss the implications of having lost or rejected your faith, be that in a representation of the divine, or an expression of faith community.") But is it for support, like All Saints? Does its remit include or preclude debate? I'm not sure, and it's new enough that no one else seems that sure either.
Posts: 2786 | From: the electrical field | Registered: Oct 2008
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Byron
Shipmate
# 15532
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
I wish my sis would post. She'd attest to the liquid tossing. Has happened maybe twice in my life, but if anyone could get me there, dude...
And again, I was pointing out, people weren't "frothing over minutae" -- at least some people-- they were specifying what they agreed with and what they didn't. The person who was frothing was the person who wouldn't accept anything less than total agreement.
As for that weird Jean Harlowe thing you just wrote-- that would be YOUR daydream, not mine.
Sweet mercy, I know this place is grade school, but "I know you are, but what am I"? Jeez.
Don't worry, it's now replaced with the image of a brawl in a nightclub. If it was a church fundraiser, my bad.
Not only did I not demand "total agreement," I of course accepted that the literal use of "speech" was legit. I made a case that the word could be used as a synonym for opinion, but hey, yet again, I don't expect everyone to agree.
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
quote:
Originally posted by Byron:
I find it bizarre you think I need to bow to anything. I find it even more bizarre that you think arguments from authority aren't fallacies.
And yet...
quote:
You missed the whole damn point if you think I was on some "independent thinker" kick. What pissed me off was to see so many clearly intelligent people not only dismiss a mainstream position out-of-hand, but to be so damn cocksure about it as to sling insults in place of argument.
Italics added.
Rejecting authority and precedent (the foundations of the common law system) and a list of people who know shit that don't agree with you - the entire point of which was to show you the sheer quantity of people who don't share your view, and yet claiming that your position is 'mainstream'.
But hey, you reject arguments of authority, right? Even while being in the 'mainstream'. Separate from the authorities.
Hmm.
I think we just found another candidate for the list of words that you use without much regard for their dictionary definition. The ability of the different parts of your brain to contribute to a single post while living in different universes is fascinating. I don't think I've ever seen anything quite like it.
Yes, okay, you successfully copied and pasted words out of a Supreme Court decision. Good Boy. What a pity, though, that you completely resist any attempt to explain to you that no-one else interprets those words in the way that you do, in your 'mainstream' of one.
That's gotta be the Big Gulp of caffeine you got going on there. Hope the restroom's close at hand.
No one except, oh, a member of the court that wrote the controlling precedent, and every court that ruled speech could be figurative, including that lil' flag burning case. As for precedent, even courts admit it doesn't decide the merits of a position, just what's binding.
Minutiae aside, note the difference here: I accept this isn't (God help me, but I'm gonna use an evangelical turn of phrase) either/or, but both/and. You by contrast insist that your, and only your, position is valid. Defend adversarial debate as I might, I'd never dream of expecting my opponent to recant.
quote:
Originally posted by saysay:
Bzzzt.
Wrong side. I've been to prison for a principle I believe deeply in and I've known way too many people charged with ridiculous shit that wouldn't get an unofficial reprimand if it was done by a rich white bitch because the school to prison pipeline is working exactly the way some people want it to.
But thanks for playing.
Hell snark aside for a second, I sincerely respect your courage in taking that stand and suffering the consequences.
It doesn't, however, substantiate your claim that prosecutors are routinely leveraging pleas with trumped up hate crime enhancements. Asking for you to do that isn't playing any games.
Posts: 1112 | Registered: Mar 2010
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Byron:
No one except, oh, a member of the court that wrote the controlling precedent, and every court that ruled speech could be figurative, including that lil' flag burning case.
Whether speech could be figurative wasn't the point in dispute, and either you know damn well it wasn't the point in dispute or you are a colossal idiot.
You know perfectly well the shit you were called was your assertion that certain things WEREN'T speech. That's the claim you rode into the thread making. You kept insisting that things weren't speech, they were some other kind of magical thing.
And now you're trying to turn into some claim that EVERYBODY ELSE suggested certain things weren't speech.
Either you're lying or you have split personality disorder. Your choice.
[ 15. February 2015, 02:51: Message edited by: orfeo ]
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Byron:
If it was a church fundraiser, my bad.
Family gathering. Have you read nothing I have written?
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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