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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Doctor Who: Fall 2014
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Firenze
Ordinary decent pagan
# 619
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Posted
Misanthrope? Why particularly?
[ 30. October 2014, 18:07: Message edited by: Firenze ]
Posts: 17302 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Jun 2001
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
Well, if she winds up being the Master...
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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Penny S
Shipmate
# 14768
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Firenze:
Misanthrope? Why particularly?
Because I am bad enough not to resist it. Sorry.
But she doesn't appear to be particularly philanthropic.
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The Great Gumby
Ship's Brain Surgeon
# 10989
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Penny S:
The last of the species or group has been a theme, hasn't it? There was the Teller. And the robots in search of the Promised Land had a touch of it. The mummy was the last of his group, though not species, and the robot in the Caretaker. And Orson.
Yes, indeed. It's definitely a theme, one of many. Having watched it through again, I've noticed all of this as well, and there may be more:
Soldiers - Well, duh. But in particular the question of whether a soldier needs to kill, whether they're necessary at all, and whether ostensible threats are really what they seem. Scary "threats" have often turned out to be harmless or even good.
Lies - Rule 1: The Doctor Lies. Rule 2: So Does Clara. It's been built up to the point where they're both lying and openly acknowledging each other's lies, so it's hard to believe that this isn't going anywhere.
Control - From Clara's "control freak" personality (possibly projection) to the frequent question of who put the Doctor in charge, there's a clear theme around who gives the orders, which is edging dangerously close to saying Who's On First. However, I don't see the Guardian POV that Danny's controlling in any way. On which note:
Orders/Officers - Danny observed that the Doctor is officer class, the kind of man who gets you to do things without thinking of the personal consequences. That's certainly true, and we've seen some examples in this series, which seem to form part of another theme:
Sacrifice/choice to die - These may be separate issues, but they seem to be too closely linked to split them. There are the obvious sacrificial deaths which ended up in the Nethersphere, but also consider Riggsy's apparent desire to die in the train, Danny's admission that he didn't try too hard to stay alive in the army, and Clara's belief that it would be better for everyone to die than to live on without their parents. Call it a willingness to meet death on its own terms.
Pragmatism - This Doctor's notable for his near-callous refusal to let the perfect be the enemy of the good. If people are going to die, nothing will be gained by fighting the inevitable or weeping and wailing about it. Some other characters have shown similar traits, especially in the area of self-sacrifice when necessary.
I think it's easy to see how most of these could fit into the general thrust of the most public and long-standing spoilerettes about the end of the series, which I won't mention specifically in case anyone's somehow managed to miss them so far. Add in the robots/automata seeking the Promised Land (which we're told is another name for the Nethersphere), and we're getting somewhere. I think there are obvious reasons, given [spoilers], why people who are willing to die for pragmatic reasons in the service of a greater cause may be of interest to Missy.
Other random detritus which may or may not get a payoff:
- People are stupid pudding-brains according to the Doctor. Not news, but it's been particularly notable this series.
- There have been a strange number of references to Clara having a wide face. Is this just a Doctor Sheldon tendency, or does it mean something?
- The PE thing with Danny. Running joke, or blatant hint of - what, exactly?
- Not a theme, but the idea that sometimes the wrong people survive feels like it should be foreshadowing something.
There. Braindump over. Sorry for the TLDR.
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The first principle is that you must not fool yourself, and you are the easiest person to fool. - Richard Feynman
A letter to my son about death
Posts: 5382 | From: Home for shot clergy spouses | Registered: Feb 2006
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Adeodatus
Shipmate
# 4992
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Penny S:
She's Miss Anne Thrope.
I thought she was Miss Terious. Or Miss Direction-of-the-viewers'-attention-in-typical-Moffat-"red-herring"-style.
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"What is broken, repair with gold."
Posts: 9779 | From: Manchester | Registered: Sep 2003
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Lord Jestocost
Shipmate
# 12909
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by The Great Gumby:
- The PE thing with Danny. Running joke, or blatant hint of - what, exactly?
When it first came up, I assumed it was because maths comes so easily to the Doctor that he literally cannot parse the concept of someone needing to be taught it. Hence a maths teacher to him is the definitive waste of space. (Fortunately Moffatt et al make it very clear they don't share this view.)
Posts: 761 | From: The Instrumentality of Man | Registered: Aug 2007
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Heavenly Anarchist
Shipmate
# 13313
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Posted
I think he sees a soldier as someone who could teach PE, which is physical, but he can't understand how somebody who has academic abilities would become a soldier. In the episode where Clara is under his bed we hear a conversation on how the child Doctor will have to become a soldier because he doesn't have the abilities to become a TimeLord.
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'I love deadlines. I like the whooshing sound they make as they fly by.' Douglas Adams
Dog Activity Monitor
My shop
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Callan
Shipmate
# 525
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Posted
Of course, when Brigadier Lethbridge-Stewart retired from UNIT he became a maths teacher. IIRC, he told the 5th Doctor that he might not be a Time Lord but even he knew how many beans made five.
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How easy it would be to live in England, if only one did not love her. - G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 9757 | From: Citizen of the World | Registered: Jun 2001
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Hedgehog
Ship's Shortstop
# 14125
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Posted
Maybe my memory is playing me false, but when the Doctor first meets Danny, isn't Danny running some sort of military drills/calisthenics with the older boys in the school? I thought then that the Doctor called him a soldier, Danny denied it saying he was a teacher, and the Doctor then shifted to him being a PE teacher. Because, well, he found him teaching calisthenics to the boys. The joke is that the Doctor refuses to change that conclusion even though told repeatedly that Danny teaches maths.
Of course, having been raised reading Sherlock Holmes, I know how treacherous professors of mathematics can be.
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"We must regain the conviction that we need one another, that we have a shared responsibility for others and the world, and that being good and decent are worth it."--Pope Francis, Laudato Si'
Posts: 2740 | From: Delaware, USA | Registered: Sep 2008
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Penny S
Shipmate
# 14768
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Posted
I have just found something odd - because I'm saving Dr Who till later, and catching up on Back to the Future III.
Marty has this newspaper report of Doc's death, shot by Buford Tannen, the ad placed by his beloved Clara. Precis of conversation. "Who's Clara?" "A scientist can't have a girl friend. It's impossible." Up comes the mayor and asks Doc to pick up the new school teacher, name of Clara.
Five elements. Clara, Doctor, impossible, schoolteacher, time travel. Accident?
And rescuing her causes changes in history.
[ 01. November 2014, 19:35: Message edited by: Penny S ]
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
Well, I am sorry but I found Dr Who particularly disturbing now. I think it was very inappropriate - certainly those 3 words.
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004
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angelica37
Shipmate
# 8478
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Posted
I didn't like it either, far too dark and far too much implausiblity. How could all that have been in London (again) and no-one noticed?
Posts: 1351 | From: Suffolk | Registered: Sep 2004
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Jay-Emm
Shipmate
# 11411
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
Well, I am sorry but I found Dr Who particularly disturbing now. I think it was very inappropriate - certainly those 3 words.
The one qualifying thing is that anyone who believes the words were well informed trusts totally the wrong people.
But a bit like elements of last weeks I was left thinking I'm ok with this (and indeed ought to be shocked at times), but what's it's affect on someone in a different situation...
Posts: 1643 | Registered: May 2006
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
I'm thinking of the bereaved child who has recently experienced the cremation of a grandparent or a parent or a brother or sister, hearing the voices crying 'Don't cremate me.' That is beyond horrific. And totally inexcusable IMHO.
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004
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angelica37
Shipmate
# 8478
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Posted
I think you do have a point there Mudfrog, it isn't an episode I would consider letting a child watch, and it maybe should have come with a warning as I'm sure there were children and adults who could have been upset by it (the youngest offspring is a fairly tough minded 12 so hopefully there won't be nightmares tonight)
I think they are trying too hard to shock, we already had that with Torchwood but that was not aimed at a family audience
Posts: 1351 | From: Suffolk | Registered: Sep 2004
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Schroedinger's cat
Ship's cool cat
# 64
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Posted
I understand the comments about those words being insensitive. But I like the darkness of this episode - and some of the others in this series. I like the fact that they are not just jolly, pleasant "adventures with the Doctor". And I remember how the words "Are you my mummy" - which could also be seen as very insensitive - were also chilling, brilliant, and utterly haunting.
I reasonably likes this episode, but I will need to see next weeks to see how they resolve it all. As to how all of this could happen in London and nobody notice - I am not sure it actually is in our London. If anything, it is happening in a dimensionally shifted St Pauls, so is undetectable.
The phone call at the start between Clara and Danny was excellent. It brought home how easy it is to lose someone. They are tackling questions of death and the afterlife, and doing it without pulling punches. Yes, it is dangerous and some will find it disturbing, but maybe it will make others think about stuff they normally avoid.
People die. It sucks like nothing else. Whatever comes after.
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Blog
Music for your enjoyment
Lord may all my hard times be healing times
take out this broken heart and renew my mind.
Posts: 18859 | From: At the bottom of a deep dark well. | Registered: May 2001
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Penny S
Shipmate
# 14768
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Posted
I've only got as far as the credits, and I'm thinking "Sod that for a game of soldiers." I saw where it was heading. I was thinking he needed to take more notice of where he was going. I knew she would feel guilt.
And I thought she was supposed to be intelligent.
Posts: 5833 | Registered: May 2009
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Adeodatus
Shipmate
# 4992
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
Well, I am sorry but I found Dr Who particularly disturbing now. I think it was very inappropriate - certainly those 3 words.
I was genuinely shocked. I thought the episode was great, but I was shocked.
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"What is broken, repair with gold."
Posts: 9779 | From: Manchester | Registered: Sep 2003
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Ariel
Shipmate
# 58
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Posted
Well, that was a corker, but not for anyone impressionable or of a nervous disposition - could easily give them nightmares.
"Doctor Skarosi" was an interesting point - I wouldn't be surprised if some visitors from the planet Skaro turn up in the final episode.
And yikes I was right ![[Eek!]](eek.gif)
Posts: 25445 | Registered: May 2001
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Penny S
Shipmate
# 14768
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Posted
Are there really more dead of us than living? I thought I'd seen calculations showing that there weren't.
Posts: 5833 | Registered: May 2009
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M.
Ship's Spare Part
# 3291
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Posted
I thought it was riveting, loved the darkness. I couldn't believe it when it was finished, it went so quickly.
M.
Posts: 2303 | From: Lurking in Surrey | Registered: Sep 2002
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Penny S
Shipmate
# 14768
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Posted
And it's sick. Those three words. And the bit about giving bodies to science.
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Dafyd
Shipmate
# 5549
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Penny S:
Are there really more dead of us than living? I thought I'd seen calculations showing that there weren't.
I think the proportion is about 5% of the human race are currently alive.
Wikipedia suggests a bit over 100 billion of which 7 billion are now alive.
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we remain, thanks to original sin, much in love with talking about, rather than with, one another. Rowan Williams
Posts: 10567 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Feb 2004
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Jay-Emm
Shipmate
# 11411
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Posted
The line that annoyed me in a petty way, was the repeated "no-one has considered..."
followed by statements that pretty much is a standard folk level expression of all religions and none.
Posts: 1643 | Registered: May 2006
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Penny S
Shipmate
# 14768
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Posted
OK, I think I saw something based on false premises. However, Missy does not have access to the full number of the dead, only the recently dead, who will be less than the living.
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Penny S
Shipmate
# 14768
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Posted
I've had a thought about Danny - the boy he killed appeared reflected in the tablet in the final image. Like the boy's face appearing over his shoulder in the dormitory in the children's home. As if the child could go back and haunt his killer when he was the same age. Doesn't fit with the cybermen, though.
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
That was all a bit odd. The lava scene felt like a dramatic climax but it was very early.
I didn't love the 3 words either, but they did warn you, multiple times, that you really weren't going to like them.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
Tell you one thing I did love: the circular windows in the doors. Once I realised what that meant I thought it was very clever.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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ChastMastr
Shipmate
# 716
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Posted
This isn't going to be one of those "religion and beliefs in an afterlife are all silly, false, and need to be outgrown" things, is it? ![[Frown]](frown.gif) One of the things which has... disinclined me to go out of my way to keep up with the show was stuff like this:
quote:
"[R]eligion is banned on Platform One. Yes, I'm deeply atheist. If they haven't reached that point by the Year Five Billion, then I give up! When did the Doctor do that speech about believing in things that are invisible? It's Episode 5, isn't it? That's another bit of atheism chucked in. That's what I believe, so that's what you're going to get. Tough, really. To get rid of those so-called agendas, you've got to get rid of me."
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My essays on comics continuity: http://chastmastr.tumblr.com/tagged/continuity
Posts: 14068 | From: Clearwater, Florida | Registered: Jul 2001
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Schroedinger's cat
Ship's cool cat
# 64
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Posted
There were some tasteless parts. Nothing visually tasteless, but verbally. But funny too - the element of dark humour that Chris Addison does so well (I wonder if he might have had some input into the writing).
It seems that they have already accepted the possibility of life after death. I presume that they will try to debunk it, but so far, it is there.
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Blog
Music for your enjoyment
Lord may all my hard times be healing times
take out this broken heart and renew my mind.
Posts: 18859 | From: At the bottom of a deep dark well. | Registered: May 2001
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
I don't think the program can truly push atheism, because Dr Who is basically a trickster god engaged in an eternal war with evil - with a deep attachment to humanity.
Regeneration is literally incarnation.
[ 02. November 2014, 10:34: Message edited by: Doublethink. ]
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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Penny S
Shipmate
# 14768
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
Tell you one thing I did love: the circular windows in the doors. Once I realised what that meant I thought it was very clever.
I'm being thick. Please explain.
Posts: 5833 | Registered: May 2009
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
"Through the round window", on whatever that kid show was?
(Mike Leigh uses that visual sometimes, too.)
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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Ariel
Shipmate
# 58
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Posted
It's probably a cultural reference from a younger generation and so will have gone straight over my head. If anyone said "round windows" to me my first association would be "hobbits" followed by "portholes".
Posts: 25445 | Registered: May 2001
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
Playschool
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
That's it!
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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Pyx_e
Quixotic Tilter
# 57
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Posted
The round windows, with the smaller circle down and to the left, reflects the shape of the cyberman's eyes.
Dr Who is awesome.
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It is better to be Kind than right.
Posts: 9778 | From: The Dark Tower | Registered: May 2001
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Ariel
Shipmate
# 58
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Posted
Nah. It's about hobbits. In the final episode the Doctor will be fighting Gollum singlehanded while Clara fends off a few orcs until a brigade of hobbits suddenly parachute in and save the day. We've already had the volcano of Mount Threndor or whatever it was, the scene is set.
Posts: 25445 | Registered: May 2001
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Schroedinger's cat
Ship's cool cat
# 64
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink.:
Playschool
The problem is, it can't be playschool, because they also had a square and an arched window. Now, if they had all three, it would be playschool.
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Blog
Music for your enjoyment
Lord may all my hard times be healing times
take out this broken heart and renew my mind.
Posts: 18859 | From: At the bottom of a deep dark well. | Registered: May 2001
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Penny S
Shipmate
# 14768
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Posted
I had thought of, and rejected, playschool. And then thought of Tardis roundels.
And this does seem to be echoing the appearance of Clara with the computer mind stealer in the Shard.
The plot seems to derive elements from Orpheus and Eurydice (in reverse), Admetus and Alcestis, with the Dr as Herakles, Childe Roland and Burd Ellen (in reverse) and Fair Janet and Tam Lin. Equating Elfland with the land of the dead. Danny choosing not to confirm his identity was a good variation on those, though.
I liked the bit where the Dr said that betrayal wasn't enough to end the way he felt about Clara.
[ 02. November 2014, 13:16: Message edited by: Penny S ]
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Jack o' the Green
Shipmate
# 11091
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink.:
I don't think the program can truly push atheism, because Dr Who is basically a trickster god engaged in an eternal war with evil - with a deep attachment to humanity.
Regeneration is literally incarnation.
Even if the Doctor is a trickster god, that's very different from a Classical Theist's God. The Doctor is contingent, conditioned and as ultimately subject to reality as the rest of us. In that sense, the programme is very much atheistic.
Posts: 3121 | From: Lancashire, England | Registered: Feb 2006
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Pyx_e
Quixotic Tilter
# 57
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Posted
eyes
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It is better to be Kind than right.
Posts: 9778 | From: The Dark Tower | Registered: May 2001
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Pyx_e
Quixotic Tilter
# 57
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Posted
quote:
I liked the bit where the Dr said that betrayal wasn't enough to end the way he felt about Clara.
1 Cor 11 ; 23 For I received from the Lord what I also passed on to you: The Lord Jesus, on the night he was betrayed, took bread ..........
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It is better to be Kind than right.
Posts: 9778 | From: The Dark Tower | Registered: May 2001
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Pine Marten
Shipmate
# 11068
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Posted
Did anyone else laugh when Dr Chang read the Doctor's psychic paper and said 'why is there all this swearing?' ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
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Keep love in your heart. A life without it is like a sunless garden when the flowers are dead. - Oscar Wilde
Posts: 1731 | From: Isle of Albion | Registered: Feb 2006
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Penny S
Shipmate
# 14768
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Pyx_e:
quote:
I liked the bit where the Dr said that betrayal wasn't enough to end the way he felt about Clara.
1 Cor 11 ; 23 For I received from the Lord what I also passed on to you: The Lord Jesus, on the night he was betrayed, took bread ..........
Exactly
Posts: 5833 | Registered: May 2009
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Sparrow
Shipmate
# 2458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
Tell you one thing I did love: the circular windows in the doors. Once I realised what that meant I thought it was very clever.
The instant I saw that I said to my bf: "Cybermen!"
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For I am persuaded that neither death, nor life,nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present nor things to come, nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, will be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Posts: 3149 | From: Bottom right hand corner of the UK | Registered: Mar 2002
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Ariel
Shipmate
# 58
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Posted
I always find Cybermen a bit of a let-down. They seem to spend most of their time just striding around saying "Delete!" or "Upgrade!" which is a bit hard to take seriously.
Posts: 25445 | Registered: May 2001
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Robert Armin
All licens'd fool
# 182
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Posted
I wish we hadn't been told it was the Cybermen in advance. Then the windows on the doors would have been a lot more effective.
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Keeping fit was an obsession with Fr Moity .... He did chin ups in the vestry, calisthenics in the pulpit, and had developed a series of Tai-Chi exercises to correspond with ritual movements of the Mass. The Antipope Robert Rankin
Posts: 8927 | From: In the pack | Registered: May 2001
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