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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Purgatory: Terrorist attack on french satirical magazine. Why
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by PaulTH*:
it's a fact that the majority of terrorists are Muslims, at least in the conflicts we get to hear about.
Italics mine.
What you really mean is that no-one ever really emphasised for you the religion of the Tamil Tigers, or the Shining Path, or the Colombian drug gangs, or the Mexican drug gangs, or (surprisingly) the Ku Klux Klan, or Timothy McVeigh, or the North Korean government.
And no-one ever asked you to consider whether there was a correlation, as opposed to a causation, between the geographical locations where the Western powers were doing questionable things and the religious beliefs of the locals.
Your reasoning process leaps from "this person is a Muslim terrorist" to "this person being a Muslim is key to him/her being a terrorist".
There's a pretty shaky basis for that leap. Even if rhetoric is couched in the language of Islam, that doesn't mean that the fundamental driver of terrorist actions is Islam.
I've discussed before the findings of Robert Pape on suicide bombing, specifically, which demonstrates consistent patterns that have nothing to do with religion. Claiming that it has something to do with religion doesn't explain why the Tamil Tigers invented suicide bombing. It doesn't explain why Lebanese suicide bombers were drawn from the Christian population just as much as the Muslim in the 1980s. It doesn't explain why Iran, a theocracy, completely fails to create suicide bombers while Saudi Arabia supplied most of the 9/11 hijackers.
It's a simplistic conclusion. Placing lots of significance on people shouting "Allah Akbar" makes about as much sense as placing lots of significance on a guy shouting "God Bless America". It doesn't contribute much to understanding why one 'American patriot' finds it acceptable to blow up a federal building when millions of others don't.
[ 08. January 2015, 06:45: Message edited by: orfeo ]
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
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PaulTH*
Shipmate
# 320
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by bib:
While deploring what has happened, nevertheless I also deplore the actions of people who think it ok to poke fun at other's beliefs whether in cartoons or a film about killing a country's leader.
While bib may have a point here, I saw a female French journalist on TV an hour ago, whose name I didn't catch, point out that many people and organisations have come under the satirical cosh of Charlie Hebdo, including politicians, the Catholic Church, the Jews and many others, but we don't find any of them bursting in with guns and committing mass murder! Even allowing for the fact that most Muslims are peaceful, there's something rotten to the core about a belief system whose radicalisation can lead to these results.
If the world leaders and holy men of Islam want to show the world that Islam means peace, they need to lance the boil of extremism by emphasising that this isn't what their faith stands for. If there are passages in the Quran or any other holy books that can be interpreted to support such behaviour, then the leaders need to strongly denounce it and it should be taught in every mosque that this is pure evil. But just hoe peaceful is Islam anyway? I remember a few years ago, Pope Benedict XVI getting into hot water at his Regensberg Lecture by saying that the whole history of Islam is one of violence.
Was he wrong? Mohammed was a warlord. His religion was spread accross North Africa, the Middle East and Turkey at the point of a sword. Forced conversions in the Balkans. The religion of Islam needs root and branch reform, distancing itself from violence in its history, and any tendency to believe that it's all right for today's world. Until it does, it will remain the pariah it had made itself to be.
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Yours in Christ
Paul
Posts: 6387 | From: White Cliffs Country | Registered: May 2001
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by PaulTH*:
If the world leaders and holy men of Islam want to show the world that Islam means peace, they need to lance the boil of extremism by emphasising that this isn't what their faith stands for.
They do. Constantly. Over the last couple of years here in Purgatory, various Shipmates have put up dozens, if not hundreds, of links to statements from Muslim leaders saying exactly that.
You don't listen to them doing it. Why not?
I know of several Muslim countries that have active deradicalisation programs whereby Muslim clerics work with convicted terrorists to show them that what they have done is not consistent with Muslim faith. There are a LOT of governments of Muslim countries that are deeply alarmed by the incursions of radical Islam, backed largely by Saudi money, into their countries, and do their level best to get rid of such people.
But we ignore all that and keep painting a picture of the rest of the Muslim world sitting idly by failing to act against terrorists.
[ 08. January 2015, 07:00: Message edited by: orfeo ]
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
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PaulTH*
Shipmate
# 320
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
What you really mean is that no-one ever really emphasised for you the religion of the Tamil Tigers, or the Shining Path, or the Colombian drug gangs, or the Mexican drug gangs, or (surprisingly) the Ku Klux Klan, or Timothy McVeigh, or the North Korean government.
Of course I'm aware that there are other "causes" in the world. I lived in London throughout Northern Ireland's "troubles" which spilled over several times into my city! I'm just saying that in the years since 9/11, you can be almost certain that any terrorist attack on a Western city will have an Islamic motive in there somewhere. Any religion, philosophy or ideology which lends itself to that kind of behaviour has something seriously wrong at its very heart, and it needs to be changed from within. All we can do from without is stay vigilent.
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Yours in Christ
Paul
Posts: 6387 | From: White Cliffs Country | Registered: May 2001
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by bib:
While deploring what has happened, nevertheless I also deplore the actions of people who think it ok to poke fun at other's beliefs whether in cartoons or a film about killing a country's leader. This is nothing to do with the right to freedom of the press etc, but rather an attempt to be deliberately provocative.
I disagree completely.
Society is becoming far, far too easily offended by satire and humourous mocking. It is essential that we are able to mock leaders, be they political, religious or otherwise.
Along the other route lies dictatorship.
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by PaulTH*:
Any religion, philosophy or ideology which lends itself to that kind of behaviour has something seriously wrong at its very heart, and it needs to be changed from within.
You seem blissfully unaware that a large part of the atheistic secular West views Christianity in exactly the same light.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
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PaulTH*
Shipmate
# 320
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
You don't listen to them doing it. Why not?
I do listen, I hear it all the time. But why is it only Muslims who do what happened yesterday, out of all the people lampooned by this publication? Why, after the Pope's Regensberg lecture, did they aggressively picket Westminster Cathedral to try and prove they aren't violent? Why do they knock an old man in his seventies to the ground in Whitechapel because he isn't interested in their leaflets and has the courage to say so? There's something wrong at the heart that needs to change.
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Yours in Christ
Paul
Posts: 6387 | From: White Cliffs Country | Registered: May 2001
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PaulTH*
Shipmate
# 320
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
You seem blissfully unaware that a large part of the atheistic secular West views Christianity in exactly the same light.
I don't defend the history of Christianity. It can at least rival Islam in its evil treatment of dissenters. Nor do I have any more sympathy for Christian fundamentalism than I have for Islam, except that we're unlikely to get bombed or shot by anyone from the local evengelical church! But the values that France, the UK and many other Western countries espouse, democracy, freedom of speech and the rule of law are, to me, centuries ahead of any Islamic country I can think of, where democracy and their way of life are incompatible.
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Yours in Christ
Paul
Posts: 6387 | From: White Cliffs Country | Registered: May 2001
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by PaulTH*:
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
You don't listen to them doing it. Why not?
I do listen, I hear it all the time. But why is it only Muslims who do what happened yesterday, out of all the people lampooned by this publication? Why, after the Pope's Regensberg lecture, did they aggressively picket Westminster Cathedral to try and prove they aren't violent? Why do they knock an old man in his seventies to the ground in Whitechapel because he isn't interested in their leaflets and has the courage to say so? There's something wrong at the heart that needs to change.
The Jihadists lack the military hardware to bomb Western cities the way that the Western nations and Israel can do to any part of the planet you choose to name, so they use these methods.
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
Wikipedia's "Christian Terrorism" article touches on a good many incidents.
Religious Tolerance has a brief article--"Acts of religiously-motivated terrorism by Christian extremists"--profiling a couple of violent Christian groups. It ends with:
quote:
There are striking parallels between the white supremacists and the religiously motivated Islamic Shi’a fanatics in the Middle East. Both groups transform abstract political ideologies and objectives into a religious imperative. Violence is not only sanctioned, it is divinely decreed. Hence, the killing of persons described as 'infidels' by extremist Shi’a or as ‘children of Satan’ by the white supremacists thus becomes a sacramental act.
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
Re B16's comments on Islam during a lecture:
IMHO, he was tone deaf, at best. IIRC, he expressed surprise that anyone was offended. I winced when the story hit the news. The world has enough trouble, without the person who represents Christianity to the world making a tactless comment like that.
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by PaulTH*:
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
You don't listen to them doing it. Why not?
I do listen, I hear it all the time. But why is it only Muslims who do what happened yesterday, out of all the people lampooned by this publication? Why, after the Pope's Regensberg lecture, did they aggressively picket Westminster Cathedral to try and prove they aren't violent? Why do they knock an old man in his seventies to the ground in Whitechapel because he isn't interested in their leaflets and has the courage to say so? There's something wrong at the heart that needs to change.
Why are white Christian Americans killing black Christian Americans with sufficient frequency that it becomes a major news story?
Why, for that matter, are black Christian Americans being convicted of so many crimes?
Why are British football hooligans so exceptionally violent? Is it because the Church of England breeds that kind of behaviour?
People are aggressive violent arseholes because they carry around a worldview in their head that justifies being aggressive violent arseholes. The rest of the content of their worldview can be remarkably similar to a peaceable person. There are plenty of football fans in your country who just want to go enjoy watching football. There are plenty of football clubs who, every time some of their fans do something unacceptable, express that it's unacceptable and doesn't represent their club.
Every worldview on the planet has insufferable jerks in it. They're insufferable jerks because they decide to be insufferable jerks. And because people tend to be tribal, they justify their jerkishness by reference to their tribe. And moderate people everywhere wince at the sight of the jerkish members of their tribe and think "dear God/Allah/Alex Ferguson, why do I have to have something in common with these people that makes me associated with them?".
It is simply not true that the only people causing death and destruction are Muslims. Everybody around the world got to here about a Muslim man who caused the death of 2 people in a Sydney cafe. Everyone focused on his religion, as if being non-Muslim would have completely insulated him from his other horrible personality traits such as sexually assaulting women and conspiring to murder his ex-wife, as if non-Muslims never do these things.
And did the rest of the world hear about the woman who, a few days later, killed 8 children?
Why is an American Muslim who kills 3 people with a bomb at the Boston Marathon a terrorist, but an American who goes on a shooting spree and kills far more people not? 12 people died yesterday. James Eagan Holmes killed 12 people in a cinema while they were watching the premiere of a Batman movie.
Why place so much significance on the supposed motives for an event and not just say that killing people completely unjustifiable reasons is wrong?
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
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Spawn
Shipmate
# 4867
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
quote:
Originally posted by PaulTH*:
Any religion, philosophy or ideology which lends itself to that kind of behaviour has something seriously wrong at its very heart, and it needs to be changed from within.
You seem blissfully unaware that a large part of the atheistic secular West views Christianity in exactly the same light.
The point is that this is okay as far as Christians are concerned. It's a matter for debate with grumpy atheists and secularists. The belligerence of Islam should similarly be up for debate. A telling case can be made against Islam that in significant parts of its history and theology it is predisposed towards violence. That is not to say that Muslims are violent.
Posts: 3447 | From: North Devon | Registered: Aug 2003
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Spawn
Shipmate
# 4867
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
Society is becoming far, far too easily offended by satire and humourous mocking. It is essential that we are able to mock leaders, be they political, religious or otherwise.
Along the other route lies dictatorship.
Totally agree with this. We must assert the freedom to deride and mock without being bound by cultural taboos from elsewhere.
I'd like to see the risk spread around by publishers. Those publications with a taste for sensationalism should republish cartoons of Muhammad from Charlie Ebdo. Other publications could publish historical and more respectful depictions of Muhammad drawn by Muslims. The taboo on images of the so-called prophet have not always been universal or absolute.
[ 08. January 2015, 08:17: Message edited by: Spawn ]
Posts: 3447 | From: North Devon | Registered: Aug 2003
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Spawn:
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
quote:
Originally posted by PaulTH*:
Any religion, philosophy or ideology which lends itself to that kind of behaviour has something seriously wrong at its very heart, and it needs to be changed from within.
You seem blissfully unaware that a large part of the atheistic secular West views Christianity in exactly the same light.
The point is that this is okay as far as Christians are concerned. It's a matter for debate with grumpy atheists and secularists. The belligerence of Islam should similarly be up for debate. A telling case can be made against Islam that in significant parts of its history and theology it is predisposed towards violence. That is not to say that Muslims are violent.
Yes, it can be up for debate, so long as it's not treated like some kind of special case. Which is exactly what happens when the conversation starts as "there must be something particular about Islam...", as if Christianity doesn't have to face a history of conquering vast swathes of the globe.
For starters, some people managed to take the words of Jesus and find in them a justification for their ambitions to almost completely wipe out the native cultures of the Americas.
[ 08. January 2015, 08:37: Message edited by: orfeo ]
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
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la vie en rouge
Parisienne
# 10688
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Posted
Ship’s resident Parisian here, reporting in safe and well. I was out at a work dinner last night, so missed a lot of the goings-on on the street, but it is being talked about everywhere, not least because we are now on the highest state of terrorist alert. This will directly impact on us going about our daily business until the perpetrators are apprehended.
People here are deeply shocked. Paris intra muros is a relatively small place in geographical terms, so it feels rather risky at the moment. There’s really no way to avoid getting on the public transport, but I think a lot of us are looking over our shoulders.
I too am wondering where the hell these people got AK47s from. I mean, AK47s? In the middle of Paris? Firearms are pretty rare in France, even in the dodgier suburbs, although many police are indeed armed (not all of them I don’t think). On the whole in Paris, around major security targets like railway stations and the Eiffel Tower, you are more likely to see armed soldiers patrolling than armed police. Nonetheless, I agree that using this incident as a basis to discuss mass gun ownership is very much missing the point. Like I said, AK47s?
Beyond that, I think people do see it as an attack on the values of the French Republic itself, rather than just an attack on a particular magazine. I get a general feeling from people of “this sort of thing isn’t supposed to happen in France”. Satire has a long history in France, and as Boogie pointed out, a publication like Charlie was just as likely to take a pop at the Pope as at the Islamic State. I wasn’t surprised to see everyone taking to the streets last night. Taking to the streets is just what French people do.
Generally this morning I’m feeling rather depressed about the state of the country. AFAICT, Marine Lepen and her odious National Front have at least had the decency to keep their mouths shut for the time being, but I can’t see it lasting. She’s too much of an opportunistic populist for that (and by the way I despise her very much). Down our way in the South-West, the National Front is very popular, and I would say the major reason is economic depression and especially unemployment. In a very confused sort of way, I feel like France’s big problem on all sides of the fence is disaffected young men of all ethnicities who can’t find a job.
#jesuischarlie
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Rent my holiday home in the South of France
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itsarumdo
Shipmate
# 18174
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Posted
There are a lot of issues here - one I don't see mentioned much is that democracies are remarkably vulnerable to this kind of attack - in that the temptation is always to expand the police state to protect citizens, and very soon we gravitate towards a police state. This was one pillar of communist policy in the cold war, intending to make the state so despised that people wanted to have a revolution. Wrt so-called islamic terrorists, they don;t need to make everyone despise the state - only to make the state (and its citizens) despise moslems enough so that they recruit more and more people who normally would not have been radicalised. There is no goal other than perpetual war. It's a nihilist doctrine based on a distorted reading of "jihad".
Also, "free speech" seems to be devoid of any sense of concomitant responsibility. Just because responsibility and reasonable behaviour are difficult to write into Law doesn't mean they no longer matter.
Somewhere behind all that is also a lot of oil money from the Wahabists. I believe, rightly or not, that America doesn't tackle this because Oil has bought out a substantial proportion of the US economy (to whom is the $trillion US debt owed to?), and an ugly pointless phoney war is preferable to economic meltdown. There's probably some quasi-Christian apocalyptic millennialism in there somewhere too for good measure. It's a mess.
Love is the answer. The question will take far too long to unravel, and is somewhat snake-like.
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"Iti sapis potanda tinone" Lycophron
Posts: 994 | From: Planet Zog | Registered: Jul 2014
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
Good to hear from you, LVER.
I'm afraid I very much get the impression automatic weapons are relatively easy to come by here.
I broadly agree with the rest of your analysis, except to say I'm most depressed by how many Christians on French evo websites (you can guess which ones) are taking the "this is what happens when you let the Muslims in" line even before any politician does. This is playing into the terrorists' hands. I repeat my contention that this is primarily political, in much the same way the Northern Ireland question is.
Off now to observe the minute's silence with the staff of the prison where I'm chaplain. It takes courage to be wearing a uniform in France right now. ![[Votive]](graemlins/votive.gif)
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
Random thought while making dinner: Christians handle mockery of Christians fairly well, but things get far more heated if Christians think that Jesus is being mocked.
All of the major controversies I can think of relate specifically to depictions of the religion's founder.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by PaulTH*:
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
You seem blissfully unaware that a large part of the atheistic secular West views Christianity in exactly the same light.
I don't defend the history of Christianity. It can at least rival Islam in its evil treatment of dissenters. Nor do I have any more sympathy for Christian fundamentalism than I have for Islam, except that we're unlikely to get bombed or shot by anyone from the local evengelical church! But the values that France, the UK and many other Western countries espouse, democracy, freedom of speech and the rule of law are, to me, centuries ahead of any Islamic country I can think of, where democracy and their way of life are incompatible.
Well, hear hear. After all, it's such a relief to know that the West hasn't used violence in the Arab/Muslim world. We haven't invaded countries in that region, we haven't practised targeted assassinations, we haven't used torture.
It's all these evil Muslims who are responsible for the violence, after all. What a relief.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Spawn
Shipmate
# 4867
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by itsarumdo:
Also, "free speech" seems to be devoid of any sense of concomitant responsibility. Just because responsibility and reasonable behaviour are difficult to write into Law doesn't mean they no longer matter.
Responsibility and reasonable behavior are irrelevant here unless your intention is to react to an attack on free speech by limiting free speech. We all have to live with the fact that satire and criticism is sometimes vile, vicious, and over-the-top. There are already laws which deal with incitement, defamation/libel etc.
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
Yes, it can be up for debate, so long as it's not treated like some kind of special case. Which is exactly what happens when the conversation starts as "there must be something particular about Islam...", as if Christianity doesn't have to face a history of conquering vast swathes of the globe.
For starters, some people managed to take the words of Jesus and find in them a justification for their ambitions to almost completely wipe out the native cultures of the Americas.
The constant comparisons to Christianity’s past (and even to contemporary examples of non-violent Christian fundamentalism) is to evade the point and ignore responsibility. So let’s get it out of the way – everyone behaves badly, every single ideology and belief system however peaceful and harmonious can be abused, and misused for political and other reasons. And now can we talk about Islamism and its own brand of terrorism which in some respects is unique and particularly atrocious.
We should be asking searching questions of Muslim scholars in the light of these events? Including specific questions. Does the taboo on images of Muhammad apply to non-muslims as a limitation on free speech? If yes, what other aspects of sharia law apply to non-muslims? If no, can we see some pressure on Muslim states to stop persecuting non-muslim minorities with blasphemy laws.
And there are more general issues. There is a relationship between belief/theology and violence as well as other factors which come into play in Islamist terrorism. The theological includes the Qu’ran’s violent verses. But also the alliance of faith with power in the blueprint of the Islamic state. There are very few resources in Islamic theology for separating mosque and state or clerics and the judiciary. I tend to think that’s generally a bad thing.
It’s silly, in my opinion, to ignore the theological basis to violence. The end to Islamist violence lies both in effective policing but also in a change of hearts and minds - politics, theologies and spiritualities.
Posts: 3447 | From: North Devon | Registered: Aug 2003
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
I missed the bit asserting that Islamic countries can't be democracies, which is just flat out wrong. Here in Australia we're next to a democracy of over 250 million people, mostly Muslim.
Turkey is another obvious one. And there are plenty of Muslim states in the western part of Africa, which while not perfect democracies aren't worse than the Christian states in the western part of Africa.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Spawn
Shipmate
# 4867
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
I missed the bit asserting that Islamic countries can't be democracies, which is just flat out wrong.
Just to be clear that you aren't referring to any of my posts. I've never said that a muslim-majority country can't be democratic.
Posts: 3447 | From: North Devon | Registered: Aug 2003
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Spawn:
The constant comparisons to Christianity’s past (and even to contemporary examples of non-violent Christian fundamentalism) is to evade the point and ignore responsibility.
What point is it evading?
quote:
So let’s get it out of the way – everyone behaves badly, every single ideology and belief system however peaceful and harmonious can be abused, and misused for political and other reasons.
Bingo. So let's not throw the baby out with the bathwater.
quote:
And now can we talk about Islamism and its own brand of terrorism which in some respects is unique and particularly atrocious.
I'm sure it's unique, because there's always a bit of a flavour of the underlying worldview that manages to seep through the basic disdain for one's fellow human beings that's required to be a terrorist. I'm not sure why you think it's particularly atrocious, other than because it's the one currently gaining our attention and worry.
quote:
We should be asking searching questions of Muslim scholars in the light of these events? Including specific questions. Does the taboo on images of Muhammad apply to non-muslims as a limitation on free speech? If yes, what other aspects of sharia law apply to non-muslims? If no, can we see some pressure on Muslim states to stop persecuting non-muslim minorities with blasphemy laws.
I already know the answer to some of those questions in the case of some countries. It's well established in Malaysia, for example, that there are sharia laws that only apply to the Muslim Malay population and not to the Chinese population.
Whether the answer in other countries is the same, I don't know. I do know, though, that a lot of 'secular' countries of Judeo-Christian tradition insist on applying laws based on those traditions to everybody, regardless of their religion.
Heck, I once worked with a Muslim who had to negotiate time for prayer on Friday, because in this country that's a working day and you're supposed to attend religious services on a Saturday or Sunday. And we have public holidays for Christmas, not Eid. Those might seem like trivial examples to you, but they were the first that sprang to mind as illustrations of how comfortable it is to be a Christian in a country with Christian laws, and be blind to the fact that there might be difficulties for religious minorities.
quote:
And there are more general issues. There is a relationship between belief/theology and violence as well as other factors which come into play in Islamist terrorism. The theological includes the Qu’ran’s violent verses. But also the alliance of faith with power in the blueprint of the Islamic state. There are very few resources in Islamic theology for separating mosque and state or clerics and the judiciary. I tend to think that’s generally a bad thing.
General issues which, of course, took Christianity just as long to solve. You do realise you're living in a country where the head of the state and the head of the church are one and the same person? She might not wield that much personal influence these days, but that position is an indication of the legacy where the monarch had state power on the grounds of being divinely appointed.
quote:
It’s silly, in my opinion, to ignore the theological basis to violence. The end to Islamist violence lies both in effective policing but also in a change of hearts and minds - politics, theologies and spiritualities.
No argument there, which is why I think it's so important that there are theologically based deradicalisation programs the world over.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Spawn:
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
I missed the bit asserting that Islamic countries can't be democracies, which is just flat out wrong.
Just to be clear that you aren't referring to any of my posts. I've never said that a muslim-majority country can't be democratic.
Correct, that was a cross-post. It was PaulTH* that made that claim.
[ 08. January 2015, 10:39: Message edited by: orfeo ]
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
Islamism is particularly atrocious? Ha, tell that to somebody in the Arab world. They have enjoyed the full benefits of Western violence for years, including invasion, drone strikes, torture. Ah, but I see, that violence is because of peace and democracy, that makes it alright.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Spawn
Shipmate
# 4867
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
I'm sure it's unique, because there's always a bit of a flavour of the underlying worldview that manages to seep through the basic disdain for one's fellow human beings that's required to be a terrorist. I'm not sure why you think it's particularly atrocious, other than because it's the one currently gaining our attention and worry.
The point I was making about evading the point is that by always saying 'it's not anything to do with Islam', or look at what Christians have done, you don't actually resolve the problems because you don't ever admit that there are any. Clearly there are.
Are you seriously saying there isn't anything particularly atrocious about beheadings, massacres, crucifixions, suicide bombings on public transport and aiming airliners into buildings? That's like saying there wasn't anything atrocious about the gas chambers, or the use of machetes in the Rwandan genocide.
quote:
I already know the answer to some of those questions in the case of some countries. It's well established in Malaysia, for example, that there are sharia laws that only apply to the Muslim Malay population and not to the Chinese population.
That still begs the question why Muslims got offended by the Danish cartoons when these weren't drawn by Muslims. On the other hand, your response to the questions is neither here nor there. It is the response of Muslims which I'm interested in because this is a debate for them. I'm not sure that you or I disagree very much about the universal applicability of the rule of law in a democracy etc. On the other hand, I'm not sure our views on sharia are particularly pertinent.
And Orfeo, I've lived in Muslim-majority countries and I don't expect people to move over for me. Christians in many Muslim countries don't get Sundays off to attend worship. It's great that many employers can have some flexibility for the religious requirements of their employees. There are problems, especially for small businesses, in making these requirements universal.
quote:
General issues which, of course, took Christianity just as long to solve. You do realise you're living in a country where the head of the state and the head of the church are one and the same person? She might not wield that much personal influence these days, but that position is an indication of the legacy where the monarch had state power on the grounds of being divinely appointed.
This is precisely why I made the point about separation of church and state because I knew you would make another vacuous, pointless and insulting (to the intelligence) comparison. It is here that the point is most obvious. Christianity from the very beginning separates church and state (rendering unto Caesar etc). Even so there are hundreds of years of examples of 'Christendom' in action. Islam has no comparable theological resources for such a separation. The Qu'ran tells the story of the creation and expansion of the first Islamic state. Secularism is largely unknown to most Islamic theologians/scholars. The late Zaki Badawi used to bemoan the fact that Islam had very little guidance for living as a minority in a secular state. This sort of exploration is now taking place among Muslims - especially those living in the west - and should be encouraged by honest dialogue.
quote:
No argument there, which is why I think it's so important that there are theologically based deradicalisation programs the world over.
Entirely agree.
Posts: 3447 | From: North Devon | Registered: Aug 2003
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L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338
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Posted
This atrocity was committed by muslims because they were muslims - we know that because they shouted 'Allahu akbar'.
Don't invent 'reasons' for this murderous binge: the people killed were shot because they weren't muslim, the people who did the killing did so because they are muslim.
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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
Posts: 4950 | From: somewhere in England... | Registered: Sep 2012
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
This atrocity was committed by muslims because they were muslims - we know that because they shouted 'Allahu akbar'.
Don't invent 'reasons' for this murderous binge: the people killed were shot because they weren't muslim, the people who did the killing did so because they are muslim.
I wish I'd had a history teacher like you; you make everything so simple, not so say simplistic.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Anglican't
Shipmate
# 15292
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
Don't invent 'reasons' for this murderous binge: the people killed were shot because they weren't muslim.
One of the policemen was. But I suppose it's quite likely that he wasn't in the eyes of his murderer.
Posts: 3613 | From: London, England | Registered: Nov 2009
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chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Spawn:
Responsibility and reasonable behavior are irrelevant here unless your intention is to react to an attack on free speech by limiting free speech. We all have to live with the fact that satire and criticism is sometimes vile, vicious, and over-the-top. There are already laws which deal with incitement, defamation/libel etc.
Presumably you know that this publication's originated after a previous publication was banned. For making comments about Charles De Gaulle.
Posts: 4035 | From: Berkshire | Registered: May 2007
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
Don't invent 'reasons' for this murderous binge: the people killed were shot because they weren't muslim, the people who did the killing did so because they are muslim.
Because muslims never kill other muslims on purpose...
I find the lack of nuance in your statement disturbing, and when I say disturbing, I mean in a rabble-rousing, appeal to the extreme right sort of way.
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Forward the New Republic
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
This atrocity was committed by muslims because they were muslims - we know that because they shouted 'Allahu akbar'.
Don't invent 'reasons' for this murderous binge: the people killed were shot because they weren't muslim, the people who did the killing did so because they are muslim.
You are living proof that the aims of those who carried out the attack on Charlie Hebdo has been successful, in causing intemperate hate-filled speech that can only make things worse.
They want conflict. I don't. Do you?
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
Yes, saying 'don't invent reasons' actually sounds like Al Quaeda-speak. Don't look at things historically, or trace back their roots. Instead, let's have a knee-jerk reaction - they're bad, we're good. That's what took us into Iraq, isn't it?
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Spawn:
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
I'm sure it's unique, because there's always a bit of a flavour of the underlying worldview that manages to seep through the basic disdain for one's fellow human beings that's required to be a terrorist. I'm not sure why you think it's particularly atrocious, other than because it's the one currently gaining our attention and worry.
The point I was making about evading the point is that by always saying 'it's not anything to do with Islam', or look at what Christians have done, you don't actually resolve the problems because you don't ever admit that there are any. Clearly there are.
This is completely false logic. How does saying "Islam is not the problem" equate with saying "there's no problem"?
It's the utterly simplistic nature of declaring that Islam IS the problem that I'm arguing against here. Because, as I've said, declaring that Islam is the problem doesn't explain why terrorism isn't equally distributed across the Muslim world. It just ISN'T. You simply don't get these sorts of people generated across the length and breadth of the Muslim world.
The kind of thinking that treats all Muslims alike, and all equally likely to be terrorists, is exactly the sort of stupid thinking that enabled the whole ridiculous claim that Iraq under Saddam Hussein was helping Al-Qaeda. They weren't of course. That regime wouldn't entertain the radical Islamist agenda of Al-Qaeda for 5 seconds.
If you want to lay the blame for this stuff at the feet of Islam, you have to explain why there is a distinct lack of terrorists from a whole bunch of Muslim regions of the world. You have to explain why Muslim Indians are so thoroughly disgusted with ISIS and have proved an incredibly poor recruiting ground for them. You have to explain why Morocco has had major crackdowns on Wahabis. You have to explain why I've seen the President of the Comoros despairing that the radicals had the money to lure his country's best and brightest instead of being happy that they were getting an education in wealthy madrassars.
In short, if you want to lay the blame for this stuff upon Islam, you have to explain why so many Muslims are just as outraged by it as you are.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Spawn:
Are you seriously saying there isn't anything particularly atrocious about beheadings, massacres, crucifixions, suicide bombings on public transport and aiming airliners into buildings? That's like saying there wasn't anything atrocious about the gas chambers, or the use of machetes in the Rwandan genocide.
I'm saying that there's no basis for characterising beheadings by Muslims as somehow particular atrocious as compared to Christians running gas chambers or using machetes.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
This.
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
You are living proof that the aims of those who carried out the attack on Charlie Hebdo has been successful, in causing intemperate hate-filled speech that can only make things worse.
They want conflict. I don't. Do you? [/QUOTE]
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Spawn
Shipmate
# 4867
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
quote:
Originally posted by Spawn:
Are you seriously saying there isn't anything particularly atrocious about beheadings, massacres, crucifixions, suicide bombings on public transport and aiming airliners into buildings? That's like saying there wasn't anything atrocious about the gas chambers, or the use of machetes in the Rwandan genocide.
I'm saying that there's no basis for characterising beheadings by Muslims as somehow particular atrocious as compared to Christians running gas chambers or using machetes.
I never made such a characterisation.
Posts: 3447 | From: North Devon | Registered: Aug 2003
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Spawn:
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
quote:
Originally posted by Spawn:
Are you seriously saying there isn't anything particularly atrocious about beheadings, massacres, crucifixions, suicide bombings on public transport and aiming airliners into buildings? That's like saying there wasn't anything atrocious about the gas chambers, or the use of machetes in the Rwandan genocide.
I'm saying that there's no basis for characterising beheadings by Muslims as somehow particular atrocious as compared to Christians running gas chambers or using machetes.
I never made such a characterisation.
The statement I was responding to was: "And now can we talk about Islamism and its own brand of terrorism which in some respects is unique and particularly atrocious."
What did you mean by "particularly atrocious" if you didn't mean "more atrocious than what I can think of non-Muslims having done"?
You didn't stick with labelling it as atrocious. You decided you had to emphasise the atrocity as being extra special atrocity. That was what I was responding to. You decided to respond as if I'd said it wasn't atrocious at all.
[ 08. January 2015, 12:42: Message edited by: orfeo ]
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Spawn
Shipmate
# 4867
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
This is completely false logic. How does saying "Islam is not the problem" equate with saying "there's no problem"?
It's the utterly simplistic nature of declaring that Islam IS the problem that I'm arguing against here. Because, as I've said, declaring that Islam is the problem doesn't explain why terrorism isn't equally distributed across the Muslim world. It just ISN'T. You simply don't get these sorts of people generated across the length and breadth of the Muslim world.
Well,from what I've seen of your posts they seem just as binary as some of your opponents in a blanket insistence that Islam generally has no case to answer. My view is that one should generally use terms like Islamist rather than Islamic to describe this kind of (yes, particularly atrocious kind of terrorism) terrorism but that some of the roots of violence need to be countered by better scholarship and more honest soul-searching.
Blaming Muslims is wrong especially when they are the primary targets of Islamist violence. But to ignore connections between some strands and interpretations of Islam and terrorism is stupid.
failing to ask questions about the connections between strands of Islam, and violence is also
Posts: 3447 | From: North Devon | Registered: Aug 2003
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
This atrocity was committed by muslims because they were muslims - we know that because they shouted 'Allahu akbar'.
Racially motivated crimes in southern US States are committed by Christians because they are Christians - we know that because they plant flaming crosses outside victims houses.
Yeah, right.
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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Spawn
Shipmate
# 4867
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Posted
Sorry about the poor editing in my previous post. I hope I can close this tangent down with Orfeo about the 'particular atrociousness' of Islamist violence. There are a number of things I find personally shocking and distressing - the suicide bombings, the mass industrial intent of the violence, the lack of warnings and the up-close-and-personal sadism of it. I've also indicated that there are other examples of violence (not by Islamists) which I regard as equally if not more atrocious.
Posts: 3447 | From: North Devon | Registered: Aug 2003
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Spawn:
But to ignore connections between some strands and interpretations of Islam and terrorism is stupid.
My problem is with asserting that those connections are somehow meaningfully causative. You have acknowledged that "every single ideology and belief system however peaceful and harmonious can be abused, and misused for political and other reasons".
So where is the basis, when looking at the connections between an ideology or belief system and the terrorism connected with it, for blaming the ideology or belief system for the terrorism?
That's my problem. If it's possible to twist any belief system to abusive and violent ends, the problem isn't the particular belief system, the problem is the desire to twist belief systems.
Replace one belief system with another and, if the motivation to twist the beliefs is still there, you'll just get twisting with a different flavour to it.
We've all met people, including here on the Ship, who are fervent dogmatic believers in one religion or ideology, and then switch to another religion or ideology and hold it just as fervently. I seem to recall we used to have one Shipmate who switched between being a pain-in-the-butt know-it-all atheist and a pain-in-the-butt know-it-all Greek Orthodox. I honestly can't remember which of those 2 phases came first, because the specific content of his beliefs had absolutely no bearing on his capacity to be disdainful and intolerant of anyone who didn't share the beliefs he had at a given time.
It's not the beliefs that are the problem. The problem is a mindset that views alternative beliefs as something to be violently opposed. The problem is an attitude that other people who are 'wrong' are not entitled to co-exist in their wrongness. The actual content of someone's beliefs are secondary to the question of how they handle the fact that not everyone sees the world through their eyes.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Liopleurodon
Mighty sea creature
# 4836
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Posted
Something which consistently fails to come up in these conversations about "why don't the moderates get the extremists under control?" is that moderate Muslims, throughout the world, are in much, much more danger from Islamist extremists than anyone else is. These are the people throwing acid in the faces of unveiled women, flogging rape victims, closing down schools, stealing away people's sons for brainwashing. In many countries, the extremists are the local thugs and the ordinary Muslims who are the nonviolent majority are terrified of them. These ordinary people face danger both from the extremists within, and from foreign military interventions to target the extremists. If they manage to get away and start a new life in another country they'll likely face a lot of prejudice about why they're not managing to control the people they were fleeing from in the first place. Does that sound by any stretch fair?
And then let's not forget how crazy-making it must be when the media consistently screams WHY DON'T YOU CONDEMN THE EXTREMISTS! and then consistently fails to report it when people do, desperately, at the top of their lungs, over and over again.
Posts: 1921 | From: Lurking under the ship | Registered: Aug 2003
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
![[Overused]](graemlins/notworthy.gif)
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
I second that and do the same for irish_lord99, orfeo, bib, Alan, Johnny English, Gamaliel et al.
Isn't it odd that we find it easier to love our formal enemies than our actual ones here though ... ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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la vie en rouge
Parisienne
# 10688
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Posted
I think there’s a whole other side to this that is very much ignored, and that is the unholy great mess that was (in this case French) colonialism.
The two suspects in this case are both of Algerian descent, as was Mohamed Merah, the lone wolf who attacked a Jewish school and French soldiers in the South a while back, killing seven people. On the whole, and generalising wildly, Algerians are rather less well integrated in French society than their Moroccan and Tunisian counterparts.
The French venture in Algeria ended in the 1960s with a very bloody colonial war that resulted in the collapse of the Fourth Republic, and I think in many ways we are still experiencing the fallout. There is still a massive taboo surrounding said bloody colonial war, and French society isn't ready to talk about it yet. Which explains why it’s so much easier to blame Islam.
Citing the fact that there are so many Muslims in France seems very contradictory to me. First up, and coming back to colonialism, the peoples of North Africa never asked us to invade their countries back in the day. Furthermore, the fact that 10% of the French population comes from a Muslim background means that they aren’t some mysterious Other to many of us. They are our colleagues and neighbours. Less so in small towns in the provinces, but in large cities like Paris, where this attack was carried out, we all know any number of (more or less devout) Muslim people and most of them are perfectly nice, law-abiding citizens. Yes, some of the scarier suburbs have high North African populations, but like I said earlier, I believe that the social problems there have a lot less to do with Islam than they do with the problem of unemployed, disaffected young men.
[ 08. January 2015, 13:38: Message edited by: la vie en rouge ]
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Rent my holiday home in the South of France
Posts: 3696 | Registered: Nov 2005
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
I just came across this very interesting and thought-provoking commentary on the nature of satire, and an argument that not all cartoons are created equal.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Matt Black
Shipmate
# 2210
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by irish_lord99:
quote:
Originally posted by Mere Nick:
quote:
Originally posted by irish_lord99:
But does Islam bring you shame? That's the major paradigm shift between western culture and Muslim/Middle Eastern culture: right vs. wrong in the west and honor vs. shame in the ME.
This publication shamed Mohammed, the attackers thought they were restoring honor to him.
Wow. I doubt I could get my head around such a thought process where doing something like that would bring honor to something I valued.
The Amish look better every day.
Indeed.
But the sad truth is that there are a lot of people in the ME who still consider murder to be an acceptable form of restoring honor: hence the honor killings that still take place.
Then fuck 'em ![[Mad]](angryfire.gif)
[ETA - apologies for the doubtless 'unreasoned response' but right now I'm too angry and upset for anything else]
[ 08. January 2015, 14:20: Message edited by: Matt Black ]
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"Protestant and Reformed, according to the Tradition of the ancient Catholic Church" - + John Cosin (1594-1672)
Posts: 14304 | From: Hampshire, UK | Registered: Jan 2002
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Liopleurodon:
Something which consistently fails to come up in these conversations about "why don't the moderates get the extremists under control?" is that moderate Muslims, throughout the world, are in much, much more danger from Islamist extremists than anyone else is. These are the people throwing acid in the faces of unveiled women, flogging rape victims, closing down schools, stealing away people's sons for brainwashing. In many countries, the extremists are the local thugs and the ordinary Muslims who are the nonviolent majority are terrified of them. These ordinary people face danger both from the extremists within, and from foreign military interventions to target the extremists. If they manage to get away and start a new life in another country they'll likely face a lot of prejudice about why they're not managing to control the people they were fleeing from in the first place. Does that sound by any stretch fair?
And then let's not forget how crazy-making it must be when the media consistently screams WHY DON'T YOU CONDEMN THE EXTREMISTS! and then consistently fails to report it when people do, desperately, at the top of their lungs, over and over again.
As a footnote to this excellent post, here is the statement by the Muslim Council of Britain.
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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