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» Ship of Fools   » Ship's Locker   » Limbo   » Kerygmania: The Gospel of John, a verse at a time. (Page 40)

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Source: (consider it) Thread: Kerygmania: The Gospel of John, a verse at a time.
Nigel M
Shipmate
# 11256

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quote:
Originally posted by pimple:
...who were the other unnamed disciples?

It is strange that the author doesn't specify here who these two are.

John does know there are 12 main disciples (he mentions that number in 6:67-71 and 20:24), but he doesn't name them all. Apart from Judas the betrayer, John names Simon-Peter, his brother Andrew, Philip, Nathaniel, another Judas, and Thomas. These few have roles to play in the gospel. In chapter 21 the sons of Zebedee are referred to (named James and John in other gospels).

John also refers to Joseph of Arimathea as a 'secret' disciple, so John was aware that a larger group of people were disciples, even if they did not form part of the inner crew. I suppose that the other two in chapter 21 could be two of that larger group, possibly also fishermen by trade, given the context of fishing. Another option might be that Andrew and also possibly Philip were the other two, but then were does the disciple whom Jesus loved fit in?

There does seem to be mileage in the idea that chapter 21 – assuming it was added to John's gospel later – was written by someone who did not have first-hand knowledge of the events.

Posts: 2826 | From: London, UK | Registered: Apr 2006  |  IP: Logged
Mamacita

Lakefront liberal
# 3659

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Link to another Keryg thread that discusses John 21.

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Do not be daunted by the enormity of the world’s grief. Do justly, now. Love mercy, now. Walk humbly, now. You are not obligated to complete the work, but neither are you free to abandon it.

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Mamacita

Lakefront liberal
# 3659

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It is interesting that the death of one, and possibly two, of the disciples is mentioned in this last chapter of John.
quote:
[Jesus said to Peter,] "Very truly, I tell you, when you were younger, you used to fasten your own belt and to go wherever you wished. But when you grow old, you will stretch out your hands, and someone else will fasten a belt around you and take you where you do not wish to go."(He said this to indicate the kind of death by which he would glorify God.) (John 21:18-19)
and
quote:
When Peter saw him [the Beloved Disciple], he said to Jesus, "Lord, what about him?" Jesus said to him, "If it is my will that he remain until I come, what is that to you? Follow me!" So the rumour spread in the community that this disciple would not die. Yet Jesus did not say to him that he would not die, but, "If it is my will that he remain until I come, what is that to you?" (John 21:21-23)
With regards to the first text above, it seems reasonable to assume that the Johannine community knew that Peter had been martyred by this time. And thus, that it might be some comfort to know that Jesus knew this would happen.

I wonder if vv. 21-23 suggest that the Johannine community knew by this time of the death of the Beloved Disciple and needed an explanation as well?

[ 03. May 2015, 17:20: Message edited by: Mamacita ]

--------------------
Do not be daunted by the enormity of the world’s grief. Do justly, now. Love mercy, now. Walk humbly, now. You are not obligated to complete the work, but neither are you free to abandon it.

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Nigel M
Shipmate
# 11256

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It does assist in answering the question, What was the purpose of writing chapter 21? There may be an overlap with the purpose of the rest of the work, if after an initial flush of enthusiasm there began to be a realisation that faith may actually be for the long haul and might have to cope with the gamut of life and death. Not an unusual issue facing new churches, or even attempts to get fit.

I don't think it would have taken long, either. Paul had barely established new Christian communities when he was having to write to them about sticking the course and not giving up. John's gospel could work well – if not always as a successful evangelistic tool – as an aid to those who are fairly recent converts to belief in Jesus. I wonder how God felt on Day Two of creation? After the initial burst of energy, did his shoulders droop at the recognition that he had another commute to work to do? Well, perhaps he had a different motivation, but the average disciple seemed to need a fillip or two.

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pimple

Ship's Irruption
# 10635

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Thanks Mamacita for linking the other Keryg thread - it'll stop me repeating myself ad nauseam if you're lucky!

Meanwhile please carry on without me for a while [like you need my permission?!]

I want to check back Nigel's and others' remarks vis-à-vis the pivotal Chapter 10 and I'm having lots of fun locating the bits I want in a thread that currently runs to 650+ pages.

I recommend it to shippies for a wet weekend. Read all about Lamb Chopped's brave struggle with.....belly dancing, for instance! [Devil]

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In other words, just because I made it all up, doesn't mean it isn't true (Reginald Hill)

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Nigel M
Shipmate
# 11256

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Trying to picture belly dancing as a metaphor for something in John, but can't remember which passage it was where Jesus said that he was God's abdominal movement. I'm sure it's in John somewhere.

I think the verse we had reached was:
quote:
John 21:3
Simon Peter told them, “I'm going to fish.” “We will go with you,” they replied. They went out and got into the boat, but that night they caught nothing.

Still part of the background to Jesus' appearance to this group of disciples. Presumably they (including the unnamed ones) were fishermen by trade, which is whey they had decamped to the Sea of Tiberius and were all prepared to go out fishing. John isn't bother to tell us where the other disciples were, or how Jesus might have interacted with them after the resurrection.

It sounds as though these fishermen were holed up in a house somewhere near the Sea; they leave the premises and got into 'the boat'. Not sure if there is any significance in specifying a single boat with the definite article – a personal property of Simon's, perhaps?

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Pyx_e

Quixotic Tilter
# 57

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"A right time for birth and another for death."

The hosts have asked me to add the final post to this 9 year adventure.

Thank you and well done! to everyone who contributed and the hosts for keeping it on course. It has been for me a touch stone and source of great pleasure to see it progress, and now end

One of the things I have learnt on the ship is that I am not good at written theology. I can (and do) talk about what the Bible means to me with fellow Christians. To read your wit, your insight, your passion has left me a little envious.

To abide by the rules I set out in May 2009:

Stop.

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It is better to be Kind than right.

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