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Source: (consider it) Thread: Purgatory: Ferguson and its implications
Porridge
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I'm on duty currently, and not in a position to listen long enough to find the exact clip, but here is an audio link (I hope) to the show where I heard the 22X stat.

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Moon: Including what?
Spiggott: That everything I've ever told you is a lie.
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saysay

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I'm not sure the emphasis on race is helpful. It allows people to examine their own beliefs, conclude that they're not racist, and then ignore the systemic problems.

There are ways to reduce the number of shootings by police.

One of the things we need to do is to make it a lot easier to fire a police officer, even in cases where criminal charges aren't brought against them.

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Golden Key
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quote:
Originally posted by Ikkyu:
Any similarity with some arguments in this thread may be just a coincidence.

Tom Tomorrow

Very good.

(I've missed that comic strip, since the SF Bay Guardian folded recently. Will have to start reading it online.)

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orfeo

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There are a variety of ways that poorly trained police can assist you with dying.

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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.

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RuthW

liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
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On the number of people killed in by police officers in the US -- according to the Washington Post, no one knows:

quote:
Officials with the Justice Department keep no comprehensive database or record of police shootings, instead allowing the nation’s more than 17,000 law enforcement agencies to self-report officer-involved shootings as part of the FBI’s annual data on “justifiable homicides” by law enforcement.

That number – which only includes self-reported information from about 750 law enforcement agencies – hovers around 400 “justifiable homicides” by police officers each year. The DOJ’s Bureau of Justice Statistics also tracks “arrest-related deaths.” But the department stopped releasing those numbers after 2009, because, like the FBI data, they were widely regarded as unreliable.

So there is no way to figure out whether black people are shot by cops at a higher rate than other people because we don't even know how many people cops are shooting in the first place.
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Golden Key
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Re whether Garner said "I'm not resisting":

Ok, looks like I messed up on this.

I was sure I'd heard that in the video coverage. But I'm capable of mishearing, so I did a search. Just something simple, like: garner "I'm not resisting". When the list came up, there were lots of sites that had both "garner" and "i'm not resisting" in the description. So I figured I'd heard right, and didn't look further.

Byron asked today for a direct link. So I went looking...and couldn't find one. Because articles that discussed Garner *also* discussed *other* seriously bad encounters with cops (e.g., mistreating journalists) and some of those victims reported saying "I'm not resisting".

So I'm not quite sure what happened. I definitely can mishear, due to a hearing problem; but it's a matter of misunderstanding what's actually said, not inserting something where there's nothing.

The only thing I can think is that maybe a newscast ran or discussed something about one of these other cases in the middle of a segment on Garner, and I was multi-tasking, and didn't catch the change.

Apologies.
[Hot and Hormonal]

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Autenrieth Road

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saysay, I'm confused by your recent post compared to other posts you have made: is an emphasis on race helpful or not?

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Truth

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Dave W.
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quote:
Originally posted by Porridge:
I'm on duty currently, and not in a position to listen long enough to find the exact clip, but here is an audio link (I hope) to the show where I heard the 22X stat.

This ProPublica article gives a similar number based on the FBI Supplementary Homicide report:
quote:
Young black males in recent years were at a far greater risk of being shot dead by police than their white counterparts – 21 times greater, according to a ProPublica analysis of federally collected data on fatal police shootings.

The 1,217 deadly police shootings from 2010 to 2012 captured in the federal data show that blacks, age 15 to 19, were killed at a rate of 31.17 per million, while just 1.47 per million white males in that age range died at the hands of police.

They also note the incompleteness of the FBI's statistics that Ruth mentioned.
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romanlion
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quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:

This is a white people problem....

Is this a white people problem?

38 dead just in November. 35 by gunshot, including two 15 year olds. I'm going out on a limb assuming mostly black.

Sadly for me I started a project in Chicago in early November. What a disaster this place is, and everyone is worried about cops?

Embarrassing.

But hey, F*** the police comin' straight from the underground, a young n**ga got it bad cause I'm brown!

Yeah...

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saysay

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quote:
Originally posted by Autenrieth Road:
saysay, I'm confused by your recent post compared to other posts you have made: is an emphasis on race helpful or not?

I think it's undeniable that within the US there exists a certain amount of both personal and systemic racism.

I think the criminal justice system within the US has systemic problems in need of immediate and ongoing correction.

I'm not sure that emphasizing racism as opposed to the systemic problems of the CJ system (which are tied up with racism but not limited to it) is the best way to get change at this point.

I'm not sure if that explanation makes sense.

(it's also possible that I'm just pissed about a race-baiting argument I got into on my uncle's facebook page last night).

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Autenrieth Road

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Thanks, saysay, for explaining. Now I understand.

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Truth

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Eutychus
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quote:
Originally posted by Byron:
Inquisitional *elements*: I'm not suggesting that trial judges become a juge d'instruction (who don't preside over trials, but conduct preliminary hearings in private, much like a grand jury, so I'm not sure how you've seen one in action).

Without it, prosecution and defense compete to spin the facts to their advantage, and can confuse and mislead perfectly competent jurors. As it happens, in most common law jurisdictions, trial judges do have the power to ask questions, but they rarely use it.

Just to clarify this tangent.

In France investigating magistrates (juges d'instruction) are inquisitorial. They are supposed to investigate à charge et à décharge i.e. to obtain incriminating AND exculpating evidence/testimony. I have read enough of their reports to see how they can and do investigate only to incriminate. Worse, witness statements are taken, and written up, by the juge d'instruction.

If the defence asks for an opportunity to confront these witnesses, the juge may promise they will be able to do so in court, but this is absolutely no guarantee they will be called.

So you can be convicted on the say-so of someone you have never met, nay, do not know, do not ever see, and who you and your counsel have never had the opportunity to cross-examine. I have seen this happen.

What happens is that the presiding trial judge reads out the witness statement as recorded by the eager-to-incriminate investigating magistrate, and that statement is basically taken as gospel: questioning it is deemed tantamount to contempt of court because you are questioning the magistrates' ability/truthfulness and not that of the witness.

In short, there is too much power concentrated in the hands of investigating magistrates, and trial judges do not simply ensure the law is properly applied in court; they get mixed up in the prosecution.

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lilBuddha
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quote:
Originally posted by romanlion:
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:

This is a white people problem....

Is this a white people problem?

What does it have to do with the discussion thus far?

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RuthW

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quote:
Originally posted by romanlion:
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:

This is a white people problem....

Is this a white people problem?

38 dead just in November. 35 by gunshot, including two 15 year olds. I'm going out on a limb assuming mostly black.

Sadly for me I started a project in Chicago in early November. What a disaster this place is, and everyone is worried about cops?

Any community with a high homicide rate sure as hell doesn't need cops making it worse. It's kind of hard to do something about gun violence if police officers are involved in unjustified shootings.
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Barnabas62
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Homicide rates and statistics.

Just endorsing RuthW's point about the statistics. I picked up elsewhere that the c 400 pa count of death by police actions was questionable for accuracy. I've also read in other places that the powerful NRA lobby have acted to block effective monitoring of "death by gun" rates in general - not sure of the full strength of that.

There is a general principle which I learned from an ex-Head of the UK Baptist Union. "It's not what you expect that counts, but what you inspect."

How can we expect to see decent social policy choices made without objective standards of inspection into what the hell is going on? The politicisation of the statistics of gun deaths, and their means of collection, may be another important issue for reform. Mucking about with the measurements is like throwing sand in your own eyes, as well as other people's.

[ 09. December 2014, 12:03: Message edited by: Barnabas62 ]

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lilBuddha
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quote:
Originally posted by romanlion:
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:

This is a white people problem....

Is this a white people problem?
As I mentioned, this is a tangent, but the answer is yes. If you dig a massive pit in the middle of a road and force a group to walk down the road at night, it is your responsibility that some fall in.

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Ikkyu
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quote:
Originally posted by romanlion:


Embarrassing.

But hey, F*** the police comin' straight from the underground, a young n**ga got it bad cause I'm brown!

Yeah...

This part of your post IS racist. And therefore you should be embarrassed.

[ 09. December 2014, 13:49: Message edited by: Ikkyu ]

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Eliab
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quote:
Originally posted by Ikkyu:
This part of your post IS racist. And therefore you should be embarrassed.

Ikkyu,

romanlion's post may or may not be racist (though I'm not even sure what the offending part of it is supposed to mean) but when you say he ought to be embarrassed by it, you're close to the line between criticising the argument and criticising the person.

As racism is a violation of Commandment 1 (Don't be a jerk), if are unable to engage with a post without directly accusing the poster of racism, it would be better to leave that to the Hosts to identify (and PM us if you think there's an issue requiring intervention) rather than make the accusation yourself.

Eliab
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romanlion
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quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:
Originally posted by romanlion:
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:

This is a white people problem....

Is this a white people problem?
As I mentioned, this is a tangent, but the answer is yes. If you dig a massive pit in the middle of a road and force a group to walk down the road at night, it is your responsibility that some fall in.
Chicago can rightly be compared to a massive pit, I agree.
The irony of being “forced to walk down the middle of the road” is hilarious though. Are you suggesting that Michael Brown was forced to walk down the middle of the road? Proper use of a sidewalk would have gone a long way for him, no doubt.

quote:
Originally posted by Ikkyu:
quote:
Originally posted by romanlion:


Embarrassing.

But hey, F*** the police comin' straight from the underground, a young n**ga got it bad cause I'm brown!

Yeah...

This part of your post IS racist. And therefore you should be embarrassed.
This is a decades old lyric, written and popularized by a black artist, and hardly “racist”. It illustrates how old and tired the mentality behind it is.
Personal choices and behavior matter, difficult as that is for many to accept. Chicago sucks, but it would be exponentially worse without the police, even if they occasionally kill someone. If you want to make a real difference, how about starting with the same level of outrage for the countless young black men killing each other as you are so happy to display in the occasional circumstance where a police officer is (justifiably) involved.

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"You can't get rich in politics unless you're a crook" - Harry S. Truman

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Doc Tor
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quote:
Originally posted by romanlion:
This is a decades old lyric, written and popularized by a black artist, and hardly “racist”. It illustrates how old and tired the mentality behind it is.

Alternatively, how poignant that a decades-old lyric hasn't lost the force of its meaning. I suppose those folk singing "Give peace a chance" and "We shall overcome" should really just get over it, because we've had peace and freedom for decades already. Oh, wait...

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Ikkyu
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quote:
Originally posted by Eliab:
quote:
Originally posted by Ikkyu:
This part of your post IS racist. And therefore you should be embarrassed.

Ikkyu,

romanlion's post may or may not be racist (though I'm not even sure what the offending part of it is supposed to mean) but when you say he ought to be embarrassed by it, you're close to the line between criticising the argument and criticising the person.

As racism is a violation of Commandment 1 (Don't be a jerk), if are unable to engage with a post without directly accusing the poster of racism, it would be better to leave that to the Hosts to identify (and PM us if you think there's an issue requiring intervention) rather than make the accusation yourself.

Eliab
Purgatory Host

I am sorry. I should have followed the example of others and address the substance of the post. Not the person.

[ 09. December 2014, 15:32: Message edited by: Ikkyu ]

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Barnabas62
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@ romanlion

Given the carnage in Chicago, what remedies do you recommend to reduce death by gun?

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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?

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lilBuddha
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quote:
Originally posted by romanlion:
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:
Originally posted by romanlion:
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:

This is a white people problem....

Is this a white people problem?
As I mentioned, this is a tangent, but the answer is yes. If you dig a massive pit in the middle of a road and force a group to walk down the road at night, it is your responsibility that some fall in.
Chicago can rightly be compared to a massive pit, I agree.
The irony of being “forced to walk down the middle of the road” is hilarious though. Are you suggesting that Michael Brown was forced to walk down the middle of the road? Proper use of a sidewalk would have gone a long way for him, no doubt.

My apologies for using a metaphor. I will speak more simply if this helps.
If you create a problem that is difficult to avoid, you share* the responsibility when it is not avoided.
To use a white on white example, think of the Mafia in America. Prohibition may have fanned the flames, but the fuel for the fire already existed. Oh, sorry, metaphor again.
More simply, Italian immigrants were treated poorly, ostracised socially, politically and economically. Thus easy prey for Italian criminals. And, much like black communities, not policed the same way as the accepted mainstream.

*Please note the use of the word share. Life not being zero-sum, there is plenty of room for individual guilt to coexist with societal responsibility.

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Byron
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Eutychus, thanks for the explanation, I'm not suggesting that the common law introduce a juge d'instruction, but that trial judges be encouraged to ask neutral truth-seeking questions.

So for example, a circumstantial theft case: a ring went missing, and the maid's the only person in the house when it did. Prosecution asks complainant to say this; defense crosses about alternative possibilities; but judge asks complainant "prior to this, did you trust your maid?" Neither defense nor prosecution risk that, 'cause it could go against them, but it'll help the jury reach a decision.

No worries, Golden Key, I first misheard "mess with" as "arrest."

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Fr Weber
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quote:
Originally posted by Ikkyu:
quote:
Originally posted by romanlion:


Embarrassing.

But hey, F*** the police comin' straight from the underground, a young n**ga got it bad cause I'm brown!

Yeah...

This part of your post IS racist. And therefore you should be embarrassed.
Wait--you do realize he's quoting NWA, right? And that his employment of the quote is an ironic contrast between the criticism of police and the disproportionate number of young black men murdered by young black men?

You could make an argument that white people cite black-on-black crime as a tactic to divert attention from systemic racism, of course. In which case I'd really like to see the argument made rather than leaping straight into accusing someone of thoughtcrime.

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Leorning Cniht
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quote:
Originally posted by Byron:
Eutychus, thanks for the explanation, I'm not suggesting that the common law introduce a juge d'instruction, but that trial judges be encouraged to ask neutral truth-seeking questions.

So in a thread which is basically all about the problems with pale people in authority having biases at various levels against poor low-status darker people, your solution is to point at one pale person in authority and say "Look! Him! He has no bias!"?
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Byron
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quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
So in a thread which is basically all about the problems with pale people in authority having biases at various levels against poor low-status darker people, your solution is to point at one pale person in authority and say "Look! Him! He has no bias!"?

There's plenty non-white judges, and plenty white judges who can be impartial. If we're gonna assume that white judges are racist, the problem goes far beyond their asking inquisitional questions on cross!
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Leorning Cniht
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quote:
Originally posted by Byron:
There's plenty non-white judges, and plenty white judges who can be impartial. If we're gonna assume that white judges are racist, the problem goes far beyond their asking inquisitional questions on cross!

There's plenty of non-white cops, too, but that's hardly a panacea. And yes, I am going to assume that the average white judge has racial bias. I'm not going to assume that he's a Klansman or anything like that, but there are plenty of soft biases that don't look like racism to people. Things like, for example, the way that white people think black children (particularly black boys) are older than they really are. There are a whole load of soft cues like that - things that are based on details of bearing, facial expression and so on, where the average white person and the average black person look just a little different, so that someone used to reading the cues of one racial group will make mistakes when trying to read another.

The solution isn't to assume that you have a magic unbiased judge - it's to construct a system where the effect of bias in the judge, the lawyers and so on is minimized. Encouraging judges to ask "neutral" questions is the opposite of that.

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lilBuddha
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Soft bias. Yes. Even those who do not think traits are directly associated with colour can make the assumption of culture associated with colour.
It might seem like I am doing that myself. but I don't think I am. I am not saying all white people directly contribute towards racial inequality. Just that the balance of power favours white people and this does not create as much incentive to foment change. But as the power, they must be part of that change.

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Hallellou, hallellou

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romanlion
editorial comment
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quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
@ romanlion

Given the carnage in Chicago, what remedies do you recommend to reduce death by gun?

Tough to say specifically, but I think we can easily identify some things that don’t work.
Gun bans, drug prohibition, and perpetual control of major metropolitan areas by the democrats.

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"You can't get rich in politics unless you're a crook" - Harry S. Truman

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Byron
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Leorning Cniht, for culpability reasons, I feel it's crucial to separate conscious and unconscious bias.

I'd agree that all people (regardless of ethnicity) are subject to unconscious biases. How we're evolved.

Problem comes when this is treated like deliberate bigotry. Accuse white judges of racism (often defined as something only white people can be guilty of), and most will get angry, shut down, and may well (unconsciously) take out their frustration by going harder on minority defendants. Counter-productive in the extreme.

If, alternatively, it's framed as unconscious bias that we're all guilty of, but, thanks to the sordid history of white supremacy, disproportionately affects African-Americans, they may be more willing to listen.

We're at an impasse right now 'cause people instinctively defend themselves, and the difference between personal and institutional racism is blurred way too much.

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Doc Tor
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quote:
Originally posted by romanlion:
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
@ romanlion

Given the carnage in Chicago, what remedies do you recommend to reduce death by gun?

Tough to say specifically, but I think we can easily identify some things that don’t work.
Gun bans, drug prohibition, and perpetual control of major metropolitan areas by the democrats.

So the answer is more guns and drugs.

[Paranoid]

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Leorning Cniht
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quote:
Originally posted by Byron:
Leorning Cniht, for culpability reasons, I feel it's crucial to separate conscious and unconscious bias.

That's fine - and most of what I was talking about were the soft biases that don't look like explicit racism, rather than explicitly racist judges. (Hence my use of "racial bias" rather than "racism".)

People should certainly try to understand and counteract their soft biases - it is a good thing to do, and will help them make better decisions - but we can't assume that it will happen.

So you want to try to design a system which is as robust as you can against such soft biases.

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romanlion
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quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
So the answer is more guns and drugs.

[Paranoid]

That won't work, at least in Chicago, because more guns and drugs won't actually fit into the city.

Maybe a triple ban on drugs, and a quadruple ban on guns will do the trick.

[ 09. December 2014, 23:32: Message edited by: romanlion ]

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"You can't get rich in politics unless you're a crook" - Harry S. Truman

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Barnabas62
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How about a bipartisan agreement to find policies which will reduce the death by gun rate?

How about some recognition that the NRA might, not saying they are for sure of course, but just might be influenced by factors other than a purist defence of the Second Amendment?

How about giving some serious consideration to the fact that other democracies have a much lower death by gun rate and trying to work out, by agreement, why that might be so?

What have you got to lose by taking a few tentative steps down that road?

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Golden Key
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Re listening to each other:

There are various reconciliation efforts in Ferguson. I like the one I heard about over the weekend, on NPR's "All Things Considered". "Pastor: The way forward in Ferguson is talk and prayer" is about a pastor who's hosting weekly potlucks at his church, where people (and not just church people!) can respectfully listen and talk. (Both transcript and audio available at link.)

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Doublethink.
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What about agreeing strict liability for neglient homicide, if a police officer kills a citizen whilst not following agreed protocols ? I.E. If you are issued a non-lethal weapon but don't carry it, then kill someone - you are liable. You restrain someone in an unauthorised way and they die, you are liable.

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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell

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Barnabas62
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DT I think there is a lot to be said for strict liability. I think the argument against it has always been don't second guess the officer on the spot. But it looks worth considering.

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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?

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Gwai
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quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
How about a bipartisan agreement to find policies which will reduce the death by gun rate?

Indeed. If someone could/would stop the gangs from running guns in by the ton from Indiana, it would improve certain areas of Chicago decisively.

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A mate of the wind and sea.
If they think they ha’ slain our Goodly Fere
They are fools eternally.


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romanlion
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As long as there are drug profits to protect, there will be guns. Even if you could eliminate the guns, they would protect their markets with knives and baseball bats.

The dirty little secret is that local, state, and federal law enforcement are not interested in stopping the drug trade because they actively profit from it, and use it to justify their budgets and tactics.

To a large extent, prohibition is responsible for the adversarial nature of the relationship between law enforcement and minority communities across this country. It certainly hasn’t helped stem the availability or demand for drugs.

The Garner situation was just an extension of this phenomenon, albeit regarding a legal product. If Caesar had been getting his bit from the sale of those single cigarettes there would have been no problem.

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"You can't get rich in politics unless you're a crook" - Harry S. Truman

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Doc Tor
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quote:
Originally posted by romanlion:
As long as there are drug profits to protect, there will be guns. Even if you could eliminate the guns, they would protect their markets with knives and baseball bats.

The dirty little secret is that local, state, and federal law enforcement are not interested in stopping the drug trade because they actively profit from it, and use it to justify their budgets and tactics.

I largely agree that this is true, and that legalising marijuana (at least) would ease (rather than solve) some of the endemic problems.

I did think, however, that it was NRA mantra that the solution to gun crime is more guns. If everyone is armed, then every time a criminal points a gun, there are a dozen guns pointing back. I can see some fundamental flaws in that approach, but I wondered if you subscribed to it, or something similar?

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lilBuddha
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To an extent the current situation is exacerbated by the drug trade. That doesn't explain historic harassment a lack of equal treatment.
And it is a mark of prejudice that drugs are assumed to be a minority problem. As if white people do not produce, distribute and use.

ETA: re legalisation, do a google search for robbery and legal dispensaries. Or liquor store robberies v. Ice cream shop robberies.

[ 10. December 2014, 15:42: Message edited by: lilBuddha ]

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romanlion
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quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:


I did think, however, that it was NRA mantra that the solution to gun crime is more guns. If everyone is armed, then every time a criminal points a gun, there are a dozen guns pointing back. I can see some fundamental flaws in that approach, but I wondered if you subscribed to it, or something similar?

Not per se, but it is a fact that guns are used to protect lives and property on a daily basis, both by citizens and the police. Responsible people are well within their rights to own and carry firearms.
I don’t attribute gun violence to guns any more than I do stabbings to knives or beatings to fists.

quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:

And it is a mark of prejudice that drugs are assumed to be a minority problem. As if white people do not produce, distribute and use.

Man, you see whitey peeking out from behind every blade of grass don’t you? That must be miserable.
Nowhere did I make that assumption, or suggest that white people don’t produce, distribute, or use drugs.
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:

ETA: re legalisation, do a google search for robbery and legal dispensaries. Or liquor store robberies v. Ice cream shop robberies.

I miss the point.

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"You can't get rich in politics unless you're a crook" - Harry S. Truman

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romanlion
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I just found this.

I apologize if it has already been linked in this thread.

Not sure if it adds anything to the debate, but it seemed worth sharing.

Killed by Police

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"You can't get rich in politics unless you're a crook" - Harry S. Truman

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Mere Nick
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Chris Rock has some excellent tips to share, too.

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Delmar O'Donnell

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lilBuddha
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romanlion,

You began your Chicago example with the suggestion of Black on black crime. Since you made no reference to a broadening of your approach, it is not unreasonable to assume you are still referring to black people.
Minorities are treated differently, to what would you attribute this?
Regarding the part you don't get, apologies again for overestimating and not supplying enough explanation.
Marijuana became legal in Colorado and California. The dispensaries have quickly become targets of robbery.
Liquor stores are a greater target than ice cream shops.
Why? Money. Addictive substances will bring more money and therefore more crime, regardless of legality.

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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou

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Golden Key
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quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Marijuana became legal in Colorado and California. The dispensaries have quickly become targets of robbery.
Liquor stores are a greater target than ice cream shops.
Why? Money. Addictive substances will bring more money and therefore more crime, regardless of legality.

In California, only *medically-prescribed* pot is legal. (Except maybe in Humboldt county. Lots of growers up there. Kind of Pot Central.) Granted, some of the prescribing doctors are reportedly...lax...in their standards. But you have to have a prescription to be legal. I don't know if the Feds are still hassling and raiding med. pot stores and growers; but they did, for some time--pot, medical or not, is still illegal at the Federal level. OTOH, we had Oaksterdam Univ. in Oakland, teaching all things pot. Not sure if it's still around.

Colorado legalized recreational use, too, in the last couple of years.

Convenience stores (small stores where you can buy a little bit of everything--fast food, household items, cigarettes, etc.) are also common crime targets. They're usually open long hours, have few clerks, and they're close to the street.

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--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")

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Soror Magna
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Marijuana dispensaries are targets partly because, AIUI, even in states where it is legal, they are not allowed to use the banking system in the USA. So it's a cash-only business, which is always risky for everybody involved.

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"You come with me to room 1013 over at the hospital, I'll show you America. Terminal, crazy and mean." -- Tony Kushner, "Angels in America"

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romanlion
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quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:


You began your Chicago example with the suggestion of Black on black crime.

It wasn't a suggestion, it was a statement of fact. Since Michael Brown was killed there have been hundreds of black men murdered in Chicago alone. Not that anyone gives a shit.

In an unrelated post I suggested that prohibition was partly to blame for the lack of trust between law enforcement and minority communities.

From this you inferred an assumption that drugs are a "minority problem, as if white people don't use, produce, or distribute."

Hatred will blind you.

quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:

Liquor stores are a greater target than ice cream shops.

People on the street are a greater target than liquor stores and ice cream shops combined.

So what? Should we outlaw bipedalism?

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"You can't get rich in politics unless you're a crook" - Harry S. Truman

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lilBuddha
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quote:
Originally posted by romanlion:
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:


You began your Chicago example with the suggestion of Black on black crime.

It wasn't a suggestion, it was a statement of fact. Since Michael Brown was killed there have been hundreds of black men murdered in Chicago alone. Not that anyone gives a shit.
This is a discussion on police mistreatment of minorities, specifically black people. So what was the point of your post?
That discussing this is remiss because there are other problems affecting black communities?
People certainly can care, and complain, about more than one thing. Even should one be perceived as a lesser issue.
They are related problems, BTW, but I suspect we would disagree on that relationship.
quote:
Originally posted by romanlion:

Hatred will blind you.

Who do I hate? White people? Certainly not. Perhaps you missed this.
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
the balance of power favours white people and this does not create as much incentive to foment change. But as the power, they must be part of that change.

It is really quite simple.
And it is not a statement which implies any inherent racial characteristics.
quote:
Originally posted by romanlion:

quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:

Liquor stores are a greater target than ice cream shops.

People on the street are a greater target than liquor stores and ice cream shops combined.

So what? Should we outlaw bipedalism?

Your reply does not make any kind of sense.
My basic point is that legalisation may well not be the panacea people think it to be in regards to crime.

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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou

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