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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Purgatory: Ferguson and its implications
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Dave W.
Shipmate
# 8765
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.:
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
As a contrast, from the above link:
You do realize that "the above link" is just a newspaper editorial, right?
In parts of the newspaper where they have actual news, on the other hand, we can find articles with headlines like Police who lie: How officers thwart justice with false testimony. The subhed is good too: "In 100 recent cases across Canada, police used illegal techniques, excessive force and racial profiling, then covered it up with false testimony."
On the plus side, though, Maclean's editorial staff thinks Canadian public-police relations are "generally positive".
Macleans is a news magazine, not a newspaper, the most widely circulated in Canada by far. The reference to illegal techniques is most likely to the recent Supreme Court ruling that Mr. Big entrapment methods* are contrary to the Charter of Rights and Freedoms.
Oh, I beg your pardon - a news magazine, not a newspaper. I hardly think that makes their editorials any more authoritative.
And no, that article had nothing to do with lying to criminals, as even a cursory glance would have told you - it was about Canadian police lying in court, under oath. As in "A nationwide Toronto Star investigation shows judges are frequently finding that police officers lie under oath."
Posts: 2059 | From: the hub of the solar system | Registered: Nov 2004
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Horseman Bree
Shipmate
# 5290
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Posted
Where did NP say anything about criminals?
Are you just trying to press some buttons, while avoiding the discussion, or do you actually care to talk about the issue?
In most countries that claim to be "developed", the police are under some form of organised review process, that is open and understood by the majority of people. In the US this appears not to be the case, at least in a large number of cases.
Where else do the police get to kill citizens without having a review?
The US was founded on reaction to a "foreign" government imposing unnecessarily harsh conditions on the inhabitants. Why have so many inhabitants allowed the police to become an unopposed force, with unusually large military powers?
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It's Not That Simple
Posts: 5372 | From: more herring choker than bluenose | Registered: Dec 2003
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Dave W.
Shipmate
# 8765
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Horseman Bree:
Where did NP say anything about criminals?
The heart of Mr. Big entrapment schemes is lying to criminals, not lying in court under oath later. Are you not familiar with Mr. Big? Wiki says it's also known as "the Canadian technique". quote:
Are you just trying to press some buttons, while avoiding the discussion, or do you actually care to talk about the issue?
Both you and NP have praised Canadian police practices and relations, so a mention of criticism of Canadian police is hardly off topic. quote:
In most countries that claim to be "developed", the police are under some form of organised review process, that is open and understood by the majority of people.
Are they? Is it? I would be interested in reading a survey comparing police review practices and public knowledge of them - do you have a link?
Posts: 2059 | From: the hub of the solar system | Registered: Nov 2004
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
Dave W. If you search for "police complaints commission" or 'review' with every province in Canada, you will come up with links for what you seem to want.
I get you want to discuss something else. My question still stands about public-police relations. It seems that the perception of this differs place to place.
Yes, we have problems, but the reports of police conduct issues from the USA sound different than they are here. Is the situation in fact different.
And yes, a national news magazine is rather different from a newspaper which are local to a city or area. I perceive media is also different in the USA.
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Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Dave W.
Shipmate
# 8765
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
Dave W. If you search for "police complaints commission" or 'review' with every province in Canada, you will come up with links for what you seem to want.
No, I don't think that would serve - the claim was that there were organized and well understood police review processes in most developed countries, not Canadian provinces. quote:
And yes, a national news magazine is rather different from a newspaper which are local to a city or area. I perceive media is also different in the USA.
I guess it is different - in my experience in the US, people don't usually point to unsupported statements in newspaper or magazine editorials as some kind of evidence.
And Horseman Bree - apparently one answer to this:
quote:
Where else do the police get to kill citizens without having a review?
is "Quebec." (Caveat - this is from the Maclean's editorial, but in the context of the piece it's a statement against interest, so perhaps it's OK.)
Posts: 2059 | From: the hub of the solar system | Registered: Nov 2004
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no prophet's flag is set so...
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# 15560
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.:
....
Policing is a provincial responsibility in Canada with complicated cost-shared programs with the federal gov't. Thus we have to go province by province.
Québec has a civil law code and traditional, different from the rest of Canada, and they manage a whole bunch of things rather differently than the rest of the provinces.
I know the media is different in the US. The freedom of press is less free here, such that, for example, when Fox News and Al Jazeera were wanted to broadcast into the country, their applications were subject to review by the CRTC (Canadian Radio and Telecommunications Commission). Editorials in Macleans general reflect the public opinion; news is not nearly as likely to made up or invented here than I perceive in your country.
After church today, I did a search and found: Attitudes towards Police in Canada.
quote:
A review of the literature demonstrates that the Canadian public held relatively favourable views of the police <list of many articles>. This is not surprising as Roberts (2004) points out that the police have a mandate (i.e., protection of society) that is generally consistent with the perspective of the public. As well, another mundane explanation of the high public approval rating of the police is associated with their high visibility in the community. Specifically, police officers are usually seen by the general public performing "some useful function" such as directing traffic at the scene of an accident.
The situation in UK seems to be that trust is dropping in police, if you follow the links within this article of the BBC to the stats they based it on.
I haven't turned up specific statistics yet on USA, and haven't looked at other countries yet. This statement from the BBC article is compelling, and makes me wonder
quote:
There is research, for example from the London School of Economics, backing up Topping's view. The more contact people have with the police, whether the contact is initiated by the police or by the member of the public, the less trust and confidence they are likely to have in them. The opposite is true for other public services like the NHS, where people have a more positive view after having contact.
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
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Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Dave W.
Shipmate
# 8765
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.:
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Policing is a provincial responsibility in Canada with complicated cost-shared programs with the federal gov't. Thus we have to go province by province.
No, we don't. I'm hardly likely to go searching through the websites of every sub-national administrative division of the developed world; it was Horseman Bree's claim, let him back it up. quote:
news is not nearly as likely to made up or invented here than I perceive in your country.
Do you have any real idea of how likely news is to be made up or invented in Canada, or are you just comparing your perceptions of Canada to your perceptions of the US? If the former - how can you possibly know that? If the latter - well, what a surprise.
Posts: 2059 | From: the hub of the solar system | Registered: Nov 2004
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
Getting a mite tetchy and personal re US-Canada perceptions. By all means argue the issues vigourously but don't presume derogatory personal motives. Or, you can take your perceptions to Hell and get as personal as you like.
Barnabas62
Purgatory Host
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.:
Do you have any real idea of how likely news is to be made up or invented in Canada,
This is beside the point. But what do you want to know? I've been a news junky since the 1960s; I miss the era of shortwave radio and have to settle mostly for newsfeeds from various sources, though winter is pretty good for catching signals not intended for here. Pravada (Russia) is currently the craziest I'm following, more so that even Fox IMHO.
quote:
Dave W.
or are you just comparing your perceptions of Canada to your perceptions of the US? If the former - how can you possibly know that? If the latter - well, what a surprise.
Both actually. I actually want to hear your personal perceptions and everyone else's: about police-public relations. The info generally seems to be that the situation is somewhat different in the USA regarding this issue, but I'm not certain if it is or not as the info is not very systematic. I am not following what the problem is with the question.
As for how policing is regulated and public complaints reviewed, we are simply caught in the factual situation that these things are provincially regulated here. It is not clear to me how public concerns about police are handling around the world. Perhaps you know a bit about this for your country or jurisdiction? I have thought that the problems re the topic of this thread might have something to do with that.
[ 18. January 2015, 21:27: Message edited by: no prophet's flag is set so... ]
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
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Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Dave W.
Shipmate
# 8765
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.:
Do you have any real idea of how likely news is to be made up or invented in Canada,
This is beside the point.
If you say so. Odd that you brought it up, though. quote:
quote:
Dave W.
or are you just comparing your perceptions of Canada to your perceptions of the US? If the former - how can you possibly know that? If the latter - well, what a surprise.
Both actually. I actually want to hear your personal perceptions and everyone else's: about police-public relations.
Frankly, I think you'd be better off looking for more polling data, but to each his own.
Posts: 2059 | From: the hub of the solar system | Registered: Nov 2004
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Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
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Posted
Oh please...mainline clergy in the United States relish every opportunity they can get to relive their glory days of the 60's and 70's. My facebook feed was filled with pictures and stories of Episcopal and other mainline clergy joining protests in Ferguson. If making the Gospel all about the progressive cause du jour was the secret to being deemed relevant by the masses, TEC parishes would all be filled to capacity. Everybody and their dog Rover has written a blog post or magazine article about why they don't come to church or more people aren't going to church. Oddly enough, the suggestion is always to do more of what the person writing the article wants to do. Here is the thing. Any church attempting to take all of the advice and act on it would disappear in a puff of contradiction much like the Douglas Adams God did after creating the babel fish.
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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan
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Horseman Bree
Shipmate
# 5290
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Posted
So: is her bewailing of the irrelevance of her church simply a statement of the obvious?
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It's Not That Simple
Posts: 5372 | From: more herring choker than bluenose | Registered: Dec 2003
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Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
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Posted
She's saying stuff that clergy of her age and theological temperament say. Do I think her church is irrelevant? Absolutely. I'd think her church was irrelevant if I agreed with her about the Gospel being all about the progressive cause du jour. Why would I come on Sunday morning to hear what I can get on MSNBC or read off the internet in the privacy of my own home? Why would I want money used for the maintenance of a very posh worship space? Even if I could see the benefit of having paid clergy as leaders and activists, why would I want to support the salary of a person paid to play irrelevant songs on an a very expensive out of date instrument? No, Riverside Church will never be relevant as defined by her in that article and she knows it. Riverside Church was founded so that Harry Emerson Fosdick could tell John D. Rockefeller what John D. Rockefeller wanted to hear. Amy Butler is carrying on that tradition of telling wealthy people in Manhattan what they want to hear. The only thing that's changed at all is what the wealthy people in Manhattan want to hear. What they want to do has not changed.
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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan
Posts: 8411 | From: By a large lake | Registered: Jul 2006
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saysay
Ship's Praying Mantis
# 6645
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
The only thing that's changed at all is what the wealthy people in Manhattan want to hear. What they want to do has not changed.
![[Overused]](graemlins/notworthy.gif)
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I'll tell you all about it when I see you again"
"'Oh sweet baby purple Jesus' - that's a direct quote from a 9 year old - shoutout to purple Jesus."
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
Re Rev. Amy Butler and Riverside Church:
Ok, I read her article. Am I missing something? She didn't say her church or The Church is irrelevant--just that the world at large thinks that.
The Social Justice section of her church's sure looks like they're trying to walk their talk. Check all four parts of that section. And they've just started a winter shelter for the homeless.
Oh, and at the end of the first page of the Social Justice section, there's this:
quote:
17. Handgun Litigation Project:
Riverside acts as a fiscal agent for this program which successfully litigated against the top handgun manufactures and distributors for negligence in the distribution of illegal firearms, which accounts for more than 90% of gun-related deaths in the United States each year.
So going to Ferguson was more than just a feel-good PR exercise.
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
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--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
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Horseman Bree
Shipmate
# 5290
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Posted
But there are people who WANT to believe that social justice is not an issue the church should even think about.
No matter what the Bible says, and no matter how "literally" they read it. They can't see that The Two Great Commandments are about "we are all in this together, and God will not be happy if you mistreat someone else"
Hell, most of them can't remember that there are just TWO Great Commandments. They are too busy trying to get Hebrew rules written on court houses to recognise that they HAVE neighbours.
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It's Not That Simple
Posts: 5372 | From: more herring choker than bluenose | Registered: Dec 2003
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Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
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Posted
quote:
originally posted by Golden Key:
Ok, I read her article. Am I missing something? She didn't say her church or The Church is irrelevant--just that the world at large thinks that.
Horseman Bree assumed she agreed with the protesters about her church and the larger Church as a whole. Like I said in my original post, she was telling all Christians that they need to do more of what she wants to do. I also said what it would look like if Riverside Church really did what she was calling them to do in order to be seen as relevant to the masses. Riverside Church has a paid staff of 130 and an operating budget of $14 million despite having an ASA of 550 and a membership of around 1600 counting affiliates. Knowing how membership roles are tallied I suspect less than half of the membership number is very active at all. So, you have essentially 1 staff person for every 5 active members. Take the 1600 number literally and you have 1 staff person for every 13 people. Seems to me like what the majority of people at Riverside Church want to attend their beautiful church, listen to their expensive organ played by their talented organist, hear a sermon sanctifying their political beliefs, and write checks to support their causes. Taking to the streets to the streets and building community means something to me. What I suspect Butler really wants them to hear is, "Sure you could always do more. Who couldn't? But, at least, you are doing more than most of all those other churches." That will be enough. Yes, they'll feel a bit guilty about not doing more but they'll feel good that they feel guilty.
quote:
originally posted by Golden Key:
So going to Ferguson was more than just a feel-good PR exercise.
I don't think it was a PR move per se. I think she did what people of her theological and political temperament do and then said what they say after doing the sort of thing they do. She may truly believe she is issuing some sort of prophetic call to action. I hear the teacher in the Peanuts cartoons. To the extent I'm inclined to listen to pastors of New York churches not in my own tradition about what I needed to do to be relevant (and that's virtually not at all), I'd be far more inclined to listen to the pastor from Times Square Church.
quote:
originally posted by Horseman Bree:
But there are people who WANT to believe that social justice is not an issue the church should even think about.
Who me? I think the church should be concerned with social justice. I just think that if the church is reduced mainly to political activism and faith in human government that we've stopped truly being the Body of Christ and become nothing more than a slightly more aggressive Rotary Club. I believe in original sin. I don't believe people are inherently good. As a result, looking for salvation through systemic change is silly. People built the old system. People corrupted the old system. People will build the new system. People will corrupt it. Meet the new boss same as the old boss. What needs to be changed is people. All the political activism in the world isn't going to change that. The risen Christ can and does. Despite being a crazy fundamentalist, the pastor at Times Square Church believes that. I sincerely doubt that clergy like Amy Bulter really do. Yes, I've met dozens of them and had long conversations with some. Most of them are good, well intentioned people that I more or less like. It's not personal. I wonder why some of them went into the ministry when social work or lobbying was what they really felt called to do. Others really are gifted pastors.
Furthermore, there are people who WANT even NEED to believe that the gospel is nothing more than their political beliefs. I say NEED because I suspect that if they ever became convinced that Jesus rejected or even didn't care about their political beliefs they would drop him like a bad habit. So, I question how they can truly have accepted Jesus as Lord.
quote:
originally posted by Horseman Bree:
No matter what the Bible says, and no matter how "literally" they read it. They can't see that The Two Great Commandments are about "we are all in this together, and God will not be happy if you mistreat someone else"
Claiming that the two great commandments necessarily leads to supporting any specific political agenda is a non sequitur. I'm interested in sound exegesis and not proof texting. The vision of Jesus suggested by advocates of the social gospel just doesn't stand up to thorough criticism even that coming from scholars who are not the least bit conservative or even Christian.
quote:
originally posted by Horseman Bree:
Hell, most of them can't remember that there are just TWO Great Commandments. They are too busy trying to get Hebrew rules written on court houses to recognise that they HAVE neighbours.
Marcionism remains a popular heresy. Now, even the 10 commandments are suspect. Might as well go ahead and throw out the Shema next.
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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan
Posts: 8411 | From: By a large lake | Registered: Jul 2006
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
I think the church should be concerned with social justice. I just think that if the church is reduced mainly to political activism and faith in human government that we've stopped truly being the Body of Christ and become nothing more than a slightly more aggressive Rotary Club. I believe in original sin. I don't believe people are inherently good. As a result, looking for salvation through systemic change is silly. People built the old system. People corrupted the old system. People will build the new system. People will corrupt it. Meet the new boss same as the old boss. What needs to be changed is people. All the political activism in the world isn't going to change that. The risen Christ can and does.
This is well put and worth highlighting.
There is a tension I think between the highlighting of the individual and the crisp focus you have noted you have on that, and those of us who also think systemic change is possible. Not systemic change to create a new Eden or heaven on earth, rather so that less individuals suffer.
I don't believe that people are inherently good, but I also don't believe in their inherent evil. Having seen some social changes in my life, germane to this topic, regarding general race relations in Canada with First Nations people, perhaps I am more optimistic that both mechanisms - the individual and systemic - can bear fruit. There is probably something cultural with this, where we perceive America to have a greater individual focus than Canada.
My question is whether you do actually see a role for systemic change at all, or if it is at zero, and if your statement was a product of binary, either-or expression.
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RuthW
liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13
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Posted
BA: What should Christians say or do, then, in your opinion? If there were a prominent case of alleged police brutality involving a white cop and a black or brown member of the public in your town, would you address it in the pulpit? What would you say to parishioners troubled by the case and trying to decide what to say or do?
[ 20. January 2015, 17:20: Message edited by: RuthW ]
Posts: 24453 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001
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Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
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Posted
quote:
originally posted by no prophet's flag is so far...
My question is whether you do actually see a role for systemic change at all, or if it is at zero, and if your statement was a product of binary, either-or expression.
All systems could stand to improve. However, I don't think the focus of the Church should be on changing the system. As a matter of fact, the more political a person gets the more I wish they would leave Christianity out of it. The more politically partisan a person becomes the more likely they are to start using bad arguments and bad theology to sanctify their entire political agenda. They do more harm than good. Those who agree with them will do so regardless of the perfunctory appeal to Christianity. The ones who don't will recognize the political rhetoric for what it is and be turned off to the church the person represents.
quote:
originally posted by RuthW:
BA: What should Christians say or do, then, in your opinion? If there were a prominent case of alleged police brutality involving a white cop and a black or brown member of the public in your town, would you address it in the pulpit? What would you say to parishioners troubled by the case and trying to decide what to say or do?
I wouldn't presume to proclaim a Christian response to any issue on which faithful Christians are clearly divided. This doesn't mean that individual Christians can't act on their convictions whatever they may be. They can and should. I have a problem when Christians make the political issues that separate us more important the faith that unites us. If you are making a controversial political issue central to the faith, you are missing the point and I don't what the political issue is, what political party supports it, or if I agree or disagree with your position.
Being from a small town, I would have to address a racially charged instance of police brutality. How I would address it would depend on the specific situation. I would not use the pulpit to jump to conclusions and call for specific actions before I truly knew the facts. One, I may end up being wrong. Two, I will forfeit any opportunity I might have to work towards reconciliation in the months and years to come. To quote the old Vulcan proverb, only Nixon could go to China. I'd tell my parishioners to follow their conscience but to think carefully before taking any action.
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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan
Posts: 8411 | From: By a large lake | Registered: Jul 2006
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
I agree with being cautious from the pulpit. As a parallel, I have, this past fall, heard from the pulpit discussion of violence, and particularly violence against women. We were invited to consider the systemic issues - there were several stories in the news at the time, 'murdered and missing aboriginal women'** and a broadcaster charged with sexual assault. We were asked to be agents of positive change, and we were led in a prayer about it which was aimed at us being positive agents about it.
I thought this was political, and also appropriate, as it addresses power imbalance between two identifiable groups - native and non-native, and women and those who are violent toward women. I have always thought power dynamics between groups is political. None of this has anything to do with political partisanship nor parties, and perhaps that's where the line is? I wouldn't accept political party-related discussion the same way.
** murdered and missing aboriginal women: there are calls for a royal commission on this, which means a national inquiry panel to investigate. The Anglican, Roman Catholic and United Church of Canada (made up of most Methodists, Presbyterians and Congregationalist) have all participated in Truth And Reconciliation meetings and hearings related to church mistreatment of aboriginal people in residential schools. Thus I do think we may have a cultural divide, where in Canada, we may be more likely to look to collective responsibility than in USA.
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
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Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
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Posted
I don't preach on abortion. I've begun to mention human sexuality more in preparation for having a parish wide conversation about blessing same sex unions. My focus is on what we as a local parish should do regarding blessing same sex unions not about what our state or the United States should do. I've mentioned the ordination of women in sermons but that's not a political issue. And as much as I would like to see a law banning crappy praise choruses that isn't a political issue either. What else? Creationism is a dead horse isn't it? I've mentioned creation v. evolution several times in sermons but that issue addresses things that really are fundamental to the Christian faith like the existence of God and reliability of scripture.
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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan
Posts: 8411 | From: By a large lake | Registered: Jul 2006
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saysay
Ship's Praying Mantis
# 6645
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Horseman Bree:
But there are people who WANT to believe that social justice is not an issue the church should even think about.
No matter what the Bible says, and no matter how "literally" they read it. They can't see that The Two Great Commandments are about "we are all in this together, and God will not be happy if you mistreat someone else"
Hell, most of them can't remember that there are just TWO Great Commandments. They are too busy trying to get Hebrew rules written on court houses to recognise that they HAVE neighbours.
I'm sorry, but what's your evidence that the people who are trying to get Hebrew rules written on court houses aren't also running food banks and soup kitchens or otherwise trying to solve some of these problems without governmental intervention?
quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
People built the old system. People corrupted the old system. People will build the new system. People will corrupt it. Meet the new boss same as the old boss.
There are times when I look at the school to prison pipeline in some of the places I've lived and think the system is working exactly as designed.
quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
What should Christians say or do, then, in your opinion?
I know the question wasn't addressed to me. And like Beeswax Altar I wouldn't presume to tell a Christian what to do or say. But that Huffington Post piece was one of the most alienating things I've read in a while; it's pieces like that that make me think maybe I should give up on the Episcopalians because I will never actually be one of them and they will never stop reminding me of that.
And I'm not sure I even believe her when she says this:
quote:
We gathered in a church basement, where we listened to young organizers talk about what they were doing and why. Their message was clear: the church is not showing up. The church has no relevance for me, for my life.
Almost all of the community organizing meetings I've been to about coordinating a response to police brutality while addressing the problems in our communities have taken place in churches. Granted, many of them have taken place in nondenominational black churches. But unless she's defining the church as her church (and/or the Episcopal church), this statement is ridiculous. I will grant you that different places are different so it's possible that the young organizers in Ferguson do feel that way. But in most of the places I've lived the church is who shows up to fill in the gaps in the economic and social safety net.
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"It's been a long day without you, my friend
I'll tell you all about it when I see you again"
"'Oh sweet baby purple Jesus' - that's a direct quote from a 9 year old - shoutout to purple Jesus."
Posts: 2943 | From: The Wire | Registered: May 2004
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
saysay--
Um, Riverside Church isn't Episcopalian.
quote:
Affiliations
The church is interdenominational. It is affiliated with both the United Church of Christ and the American Baptist Churches and cooperates with the Council of Churches in the City of New York as well as the New York State, National, and World Councils of Churches.
You also said:
quote:
But in most of the places I've lived the church is who shows up to fill in the gaps in the economic and social safety net.
As I mentioned upthread, check out the Social Justice tab on the church's site. Go through all its sections. And note the lower-right corner of the front page--they've just started a winter homeless shelter. They're actually doing stuff, not just talking.
I found the article a little off-putting, simply because of so many buzz words. phrases, and attitudes. But I looked through the church's site; read Rev. Butler's bio, which you can find by clicking on her name at the top of the HuffPost article; and read her personal account on the church's site. AFAICT, there's more to her and her church than you seem to think.
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by saysay:
I'm sorry, but what's your evidence that the people who are trying to get Hebrew rules written on court houses aren't also running food banks and soup kitchens or otherwise trying to solve some of these problems without governmental intervention?
Food banks, soup kitchens, homeless shelters are very good things, but they are only really sticking plasters. Helping the poor will also need to include helping them into work, good schools, ensuring minimum wages are adequate to alleviate poverty, minimising their tax burden, ensuring there is quality affordable housing, providing quality affordable healthcare ... many of which are well and truly in the realm of government policy.
"When I give food to the poor, they call me a saint. When I ask why they are poor, they call me a communist." - Hélder Câmara
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
And, tying into the Camara quote: Che Gueverra reportedly said "Jesus made me a Communist".
[ 21. January 2015, 08:03: Message edited by: Golden Key ]
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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Gwai
Shipmate
# 11076
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Posted
BA: I'll give you credit for being generally consistent. Still it sounds like you have a belief that Christians shouldn't be divisive. I think many of us (on both sides of the spectrum) disagree and say there are points of doctrine/action on which we would split from the rest of the church. So if you preach that Christians shouldn't be divisive you are already taking a view on something that Christians greatly disagree over.
I don't say that to criticize you. I think how much one should fight over and where one should drop a thing for the sake of unity is a very hard question. I just mean to point out that I don't think it's possible to avoid having stated opinions about what Christians should do unless you have no hard opinions at all. And unity is a hard (though valuable) thing for sure!
That church is working for its beliefs intensely, so of course it's doing something divisive. Christ completely worship practices and beliefs, and boy was that divisive. If one has a strong belief about where the Church needs to be re race and racism, I don't know that it would clearly be very Christian to stand in the corner afraid of annoying anyone.
[ 21. January 2015, 14:10: Message edited by: Gwai ]
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A master of men was the Goodly Fere,
A mate of the wind and sea.
If they think they ha’ slain our Goodly Fere
They are fools eternally.
Posts: 11914 | From: Chicago | Registered: Feb 2006
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gwai:
BA: I'll give you credit for being generally consistent. Still it sounds like you have a belief that Christians shouldn't be divisive. I think many of us (on both sides of the spectrum) disagree and say there are points of doctrine/action on which we would split from the rest of the church. So if you preach that Christians shouldn't be divisive you are already taking a view on something that Christians greatly disagree over.
I don't say that to criticize you. I think how much one should fight over and where one should drop a thing for the sake of unity is a very hard question. I just mean to point out that I don't think it's possible to avoid having stated opinions about what Christians should do unless you have no hard opinions at all. And unity is a hard (though valuable) thing for sure!
That church is working for its beliefs intensely, so of course it's doing something divisive. Christ completely worship practices and beliefs, and boy was that divisive. If one has a strong belief about where the Church needs to be re race and racism, I don't know that it would clearly be very Christian to stand in the corner afraid of annoying anyone.
Spot on.
It's a hard balance, isn't it? If we allow ourselves to divide too easily over either doctrine or politics, we cause grievous harm to the body of Christ in direct opposition to the teaching of Jesus. But if we don't ever speak out on "divisive" issues, we cease to believe or stand for anything theologically, and our faith becomes mere words with no meaning or purpose in the real world.
As a preacher I find that line constantly before me. Part of the key IMHO is prophetic discernment. There are lots and lots of times when I share a controversial belief (hey, I'm an open theist, afterall, controversy is my middle name) but bracket it as my opinion-- making clear this is something on which Christians of good faith agree. But I'm very very hesitant to drag God into these frays. Having a pulpit is an awesome, fearsome responsibility. The temptation to say "thus saith the Lord" needs to be taken seriously. Before I go there I need to be really really sure I've heard from God in a way that is, at least in my mind, unequivocably real. I can't do it every week-- and I shouldn't.
[ 21. January 2015, 15:03: Message edited by: cliffdweller ]
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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saysay
Ship's Praying Mantis
# 6645
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
saysay--
Um, Riverside Church isn't Episcopalian.
quote:
Affiliations
The church is interdenominational. It is affiliated with both the United Church of Christ and the American Baptist Churches and cooperates with the Council of Churches in the City of New York as well as the New York State, National, and World Councils of Churches.
My bad. Beeswax Altar's reference to the Episcopalians confused me.
quote:
You also said:
quote:
But in most of the places I've lived the church is who shows up to fill in the gaps in the economic and social safety net.
quote:
As I mentioned upthread, check out the Social Justice tab on the church's site. Go through all its sections. And note the lower-right corner of the front page--they've just started a winter homeless shelter. They're actually doing stuff, not just talking.
I never said they were only talking the talk not walking the walk.
quote:
I found the article a little off-putting, simply because of so many buzz words. phrases, and attitudes. But I looked through the church's site; read Rev. Butler's bio, which you can find by clicking on her name at the top of the HuffPost article; and read her personal account on the church's site. AFAICT, there's more to her and her church than you seem to think.
I thought the article in the Huffington Post was alienating. That's not a judgment on the church, although if her sermons are anything like the article, I doubt I would feel particularly welcome in that congregation.
IME most places that describe themselves as affirming and inclusive are anything but. At least on Sunday morning, and regardless of what good works they try to do to help the poor in their communities during the week. YMMV, etc. etc.
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"It's been a long day without you, my friend
I'll tell you all about it when I see you again"
"'Oh sweet baby purple Jesus' - that's a direct quote from a 9 year old - shoutout to purple Jesus."
Posts: 2943 | From: The Wire | Registered: May 2004
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saysay
Ship's Praying Mantis
# 6645
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
quote:
Originally posted by saysay:
I'm sorry, but what's your evidence that the people who are trying to get Hebrew rules written on court houses aren't also running food banks and soup kitchens or otherwise trying to solve some of these problems without governmental intervention?
Food banks, soup kitchens, homeless shelters are very good things, but they are only really sticking plasters. Helping the poor will also need to include helping them into work, good schools, ensuring minimum wages are adequate to alleviate poverty, minimising their tax burden, ensuring there is quality affordable housing, providing quality affordable healthcare ... many of which are well and truly in the realm of government policy.
I know that. However, I live in the US. The realities of our political system mean that most politicians are in big business' pocket.
There are, for example, so many insurance agencies with so many people working in them fighting against single payer health insurance...
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"It's been a long day without you, my friend
I'll tell you all about it when I see you again"
"'Oh sweet baby purple Jesus' - that's a direct quote from a 9 year old - shoutout to purple Jesus."
Posts: 2943 | From: The Wire | Registered: May 2004
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by saysay:
I live in the US. The realities of our political system mean that most politicians are in big business' pocket.
If the political system is broken, and politicians are not working for the people they represent then perhaps that suggests a priority for the church would be to work to fix the system as the first step to getting society to work for the benefit of all it's citizens.
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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saysay
Ship's Praying Mantis
# 6645
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Posted
There are certainly many who think that.
However, there are also many who think that most of the problems in the system come from the fact that it panders to Christians (who are assumed to hold certain positions on Dead Horse issues regardless of whether or not they actually hold them).
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"It's been a long day without you, my friend
I'll tell you all about it when I see you again"
"'Oh sweet baby purple Jesus' - that's a direct quote from a 9 year old - shoutout to purple Jesus."
Posts: 2943 | From: The Wire | Registered: May 2004
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Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
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Posted
quote:
originally posted by Gwai:
BA: I'll give you credit for being generally consistent. Still it sounds like you have a belief that Christians shouldn't be divisive. I think many of us (on both sides of the spectrum) disagree and say there are points of doctrine/action on which we would split from the rest of the church. So if you preach that Christians shouldn't be divisive you are already taking a view on something that Christians greatly disagree over.
No, I have no problems with Christianity causing divisions. As many liberal Christians lament, the words of the Nicene Creed divide people. The exclusivist claim of salvation through Jesus divides people. I'm OK with that. I'm a Christian. I have a problem when people who identify as Christians deem the Christian faith as believed by the Church for centuries to be irrelevant but will not hesitate to fight tooth and nail for the platform of their political tribe. If I thought the implementation of my political beliefs was more important than the spread of the Gospel, I would have gone into politics.
quote:
originally posted by cliffdweller:
As a preacher I find that line constantly before me. Part of the key IMHO is prophetic discernment.
I'm skeptical of preachers claiming the prophetical mantle for themselves. Growing up in charismatic churches, I've heard prophecy used to justify a whole bunch of nonsense. I'm every bit as skeptical of mainline preachers claiming to be prophetic when preaching their politics from the pulpit.
quote:
originally posted by Alan Creswell:
Food banks, soup kitchens, homeless shelters are very good things, but they are only really sticking plasters. Helping the poor will also need to include helping them into work, good schools, ensuring minimum wages are adequate to alleviate poverty, minimising their tax burden, ensuring there is quality affordable housing, providing quality affordable healthcare ... many of which are well and truly in the realm of government policy.
And that's your opinion. However, the Gospels only address what the individual should do. Jesus tells the rich young rule to sell everything he owns. Jesus asks his individual disciples what they did to the least of these. Scripture and indeed Christian tradition doesn't provide a set of economic policies that Christians must strive to implement. Pretending it does is a mistake. Making the implementation of economic policies the main priority of the Church is an even bigger mistake. Besides, I thought we weren't supposed to try to force our religious beliefs on others through government force.
quote:
originally posted by Golden Key:
And, tying into the Camara quote: Che Gueverra reportedly said "Jesus made me a Communist".
Yeah, Che and Fidel changed the system didn't they? Would Jesus found a dictatorship that thousands would board overcrowded rafts and brave shark infested waters to escape? Cuba really is heaven compared to the other Communist countries.
quote:
originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
If the political system is broken, and politicians are not working for the people they represent then perhaps that suggests a priority for the church would be to work to fix the system as the first step to getting society to work for the benefit of all it's citizens.
Well, the church would have to define the people. Then, the church would have to come to a consensus about what a system that worked for the people looked like. Then, the church would have to convince the people that the system envisioned by the church would work better for the people than the current system. The good news of Jesus life, death, and resurrection is not that the United States can be more like Norway. For the record, it's not about Norway or any other nation becoming more like the United States either. Christians have flourished in every political system imaginable. Jesus sent his disciples to make more disciples not to overthrow the Roman Empire.
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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan
Posts: 8411 | From: By a large lake | Registered: Jul 2006
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
snip
quote:
originally posted by cliffdweller:
As a preacher I find that line constantly before me. Part of the key IMHO is prophetic discernment.
I'm skeptical of preachers claiming the prophetical mantle for themselves. Growing up in charismatic churches, I've heard prophecy used to justify a whole bunch of nonsense. I'm every bit as skeptical of mainline preachers claiming to be prophetic when preaching their politics from the pulpit.
Kinda my point-- which you would had seen had you not snipped my comment out of context.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
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Posted
It goes beyond how often you make prophetic political statements from the pulpit. Let's say I'm a member of your church. Would it be possible for me to discern your political beliefs from casual conversation? How about from reading your facebook feed? Because if I can, the chances that I'm going to believe you are truly being prophetic and not using the pulpit to cram your political opinions down my throat is about zero.
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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan
Posts: 8411 | From: By a large lake | Registered: Jul 2006
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
It goes beyond how often you make prophetic political statements from the pulpit. Let's say I'm a member of your church. Would it be possible for me to discern your political beliefs from casual conversation? How about from reading your facebook feed? Because if I can, the chances that I'm going to believe you are truly being prophetic and not using the pulpit to cram your political opinions down my throat is about zero.
Wonderful demonstration of missing the point. Now go back and read what I actually said and try again.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
hosting/
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
Wonderful demonstration of missing the point. Now go back and read what I actually said and try again.
Cliffdweller, asserting that people are missing the point is fine. Giving them paternalistic orders is not, and is not going to move the discussion forward in any helpful way.
I'm tiring of reminding you of the rules in this respect: take it to Hell if you must get personal.
/hosting
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
quote:
originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
If the political system is broken, and politicians are not working for the people they represent then perhaps that suggests a priority for the church would be to work to fix the system as the first step to getting society to work for the benefit of all it's citizens.
Well, the church would have to define the people. Then, the church would have to come to a consensus about what a system that worked for the people looked like. Then, the church would have to convince the people that the system envisioned by the church would work better for the people than the current system.
In this instance, the people would be those who live and work in the United States. And, ultimately those are the people who need to act for change, and therefore identify what changes they want. It might just take something from the Church, and others, to kick start the process. Perhaps as a start if the churches were to say that the amount of money spent on political campaigning in a country and world where so many people are in abject poverty is obscene, and suggest limits on spending and how much an individual can give to political parties - possibly linked to incentives for donations to organisations providing direct help to the poor instead. Without so much money from business and rich individuals bankrolling campaigns they will have less hold over politicians, and without the money to spend campaigning will have to rely more on individual party members on the doorstep - and (in the UK at least) the local party membership is going to be more representative of the people than the party central office and their PR people.
quote:
Christians have flourished in every political system imaginable.
It's not about whether Christians should flourish, but about the whole of society. It's about love of neighbour.
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
my apologies.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
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Posted
quote:
originally posted by Alan Creswell:
Perhaps as a start if the churches were to say that the amount of money spent on political campaigning in a country and world where so many people are in abject poverty is obscene, and suggest limits on spending and how much an individual can give to political parties -
Most restrictions on campaign finance has been ruled unconstitutional. Besides, both political parties receive billions of dollars in funding. What the focus on campaign finance assumes is that there is a unique third party position popular enough to win elections. I doubt there is. I'm sure there would be some benefit to removing some of the money from politics but not worth making it the priority of the Church. Christians haven't even embraced democracy until fairly recently. Hard to see how elections being run should be a central concern to Christians. Should it be important to us as Americans who live in a representative democracy? Maybe. Important to us as Christians? I don't think so.
quote:
originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
- and (in the UK at least) the local party membership is going to be more representative of the people than the party central office and their PR people
Even with all the money in US politics, representatives are more responsive to the people than members of parliament. Congressional whips only dream of having as much power as whips in parliament. Imagine a possible backbench revolt on nearly every major vote.
quote:
originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
It's not about whether Christians should flourish, but about the whole of society. It's about love of neighbour.
Campaign finance reform has nothing to do with loving one's neighbor. Again, where does Jesus call for political campaigns much less tell us how they should be financed? He doesn't. Given that broad an interpretation, love of neighbor can be used to justify anything and everything conceivable. A verse that can mean anything means nothing.
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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan
Posts: 8411 | From: By a large lake | Registered: Jul 2006
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Amanda B. Reckondwythe
Dressed for Church
# 5521
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
Imagine a possible backbench revolt on nearly every major vote.
Well, imagine a Senate where one member can kill a measure favored by the majority.
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"I take prayer too seriously to use it as an excuse for avoiding work and responsibility." -- The Revd Martin Luther King Jr.
Posts: 10542 | From: The Great Southwest | Registered: Feb 2004
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Rossweisse
High Church Valkyrie
# 2349
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
...My facebook feed was filled with pictures and stories of Episcopal and other mainline clergy joining protests in Ferguson. If making the Gospel all about the progressive cause du jour was the secret to being deemed relevant by the masses, TEC parishes would all be filled to capacity. ...
However, the clergy involved in the Ferguson protests made a real difference there, helping to bring sides together, calming situations, and witnessing in a good way. I know many of them, and they're not all "progressive." They're concerned about their community and their witness.
There was one majorly wince-worthy moment when they met to pray with police officers and called on them to repent. That was arrogant, among other things - but that misstep aside, I didn't see any negatives stemming from their involvement. God bless them.
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I'm not dead yet.
Posts: 15117 | From: Valhalla | Registered: Feb 2002
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
BA--
quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
quote:
originally posted by Alan Creswell:
Food banks, soup kitchens, homeless shelters are very good things, but they are only really sticking plasters. Helping the poor will also need to include helping them into work, good schools, ensuring minimum wages are adequate to alleviate poverty, minimising their tax burden, ensuring there is quality affordable housing, providing quality affordable healthcare ... many of which are well and truly in the realm of government policy.
And that's your opinion. However, the Gospels only address what the individual should do. Jesus tells the rich young rule to sell everything he owns. Jesus asks his individual disciples what they did to the least of these. Scripture and indeed Christian tradition doesn't provide a set of economic policies that Christians must strive to implement. Pretending it does is a mistake. Making the implementation of economic policies the main priority of the Church is an even bigger mistake. Besides, I thought we weren't supposed to try to force our religious beliefs on others through government force.
What about the Sermon On The Mount? Wasn't just spoken to individuals. As Alan pointed out, politics can help implement Jesus' basic social teachings. Politics don't have to be "the main priority of the Church"; but shouldn't helping our neighbor have at least the basics of life be up there somewhere?
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Rossweisse:
There was one majorly wince-worthy moment when they met to pray with police officers and called on them to repent. That was arrogant, among other things - but that misstep aside, I didn't see any negatives stemming from their involvement. God bless them.
I assume that they also went to the protest leaders and asked them to repent for the damage to so many shops owned by blacks.
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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
Posts: 7028 | From: Warrawee NSW Australia | Registered: Jun 2008
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
I heard something odd on NPR on Monday. I think it was in this segment of "Here & Now", about community policing. The transcript isn't posted yet, but the audio is.
There was a section where, IIRC, there was some kind of gathering of police and young (African-American?) people. A conversation went something like this:
quote:
Interviewer: So how do you tell the difference between these kids here, and bad kids out there?
Officer: Well, when they smile, wave, and say "Hi, officer!"
And I find that a little disturbing. Granted, it might be nice if cops and civilians got on that well. But if officers divide good and bad civilians according to who is happy to see them...they could seriously misjudge people.
And a lot of people probably don't pay them any attention at all.
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
Right. Like all the white kids do, yeah? That's why they don't get harassed the same. ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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saysay
Ship's Praying Mantis
# 6645
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
quote:
Interviewer: So how do you tell the difference between these kids here, and bad kids out there?
Officer: Well, when they smile, wave, and say "Hi, officer!"
And I find that a little disturbing. Granted, it might be nice if cops and civilians got on that well. But if officers divide good and bad civilians according to who is happy to see them...they could seriously misjudge people.
And a lot of people probably don't pay them any attention at all.
The worst part is that it's a vicious cycle. Once you've had one run-in with a bad cop who has violated your rights and left you with bruises for no reason you could see, you tend to get nervous around cops. In other cops' minds, that nervousness turns into probable cause for harassing you, because why would you be nervous if you weren't committing a crime?
Of course, that's before you even get to the cops who believe that failure to properly kiss their ass is a crime.
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"It's been a long day without you, my friend
I'll tell you all about it when I see you again"
"'Oh sweet baby purple Jesus' - that's a direct quote from a 9 year old - shoutout to purple Jesus."
Posts: 2943 | From: The Wire | Registered: May 2004
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