homepage
  roll on christmas  
click here to find out more about ship of fools click here to sign up for the ship of fools newsletter click here to support ship of fools
community the mystery worshipper gadgets for god caption competition foolishness features ship stuff
discussion boards live chat cafe avatars frequently-asked questions the ten commandments gallery private boards register for the boards
 
Ship of Fools


Post new thread  Post a reply
My profile login | | Directory | Search | FAQs | Board home
   - Printer-friendly view Next oldest thread   Next newest thread
» Ship of Fools   » Ship's Locker   » Limbo   » Purgatory: Ferguson and its implications (Page 21)

 - Email this page to a friend or enemy.  
Pages in this thread: 1  2  3  ...  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  ...  32  33  34 
 
Source: (consider it) Thread: Purgatory: Ferguson and its implications
Horseman Bree
Shipmate
# 5290

 - Posted      Profile for Horseman Bree   Email Horseman Bree   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Seems to be the right place to post this: Black Man arrested and jailed for carrying a golf club an activity he had been doing in that area for 20 years.

Turns out that police person who arrested him was "tired of black people's paranoia that white people are out to get them."

As the article says, if she's tired of that form of paranoia, maybe she should stop proving that said paranoia has a basis in experience.

To be fair, the City did apologise and has moved the officer to desk duty. This is Seattle, not Ferguson.

[ 31. January 2015, 21:51: Message edited by: Horseman Bree ]

--------------------
It's Not That Simple

Posts: 5372 | From: more herring choker than bluenose | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333

 - Posted      Profile for lilBuddha     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
How in the bloody hell did it get to a court without the video being viewed? How did it result in a conviction?

ETA: The linked video shows the cop lying as to why she stopped the man. A link on that link tells a more complete story, one which still shows the cop to be a liar.

[ 01. February 2015, 01:30: Message edited by: lilBuddha ]

--------------------
I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou

Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008  |  IP: Logged
Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564

 - Posted      Profile for Leorning Cniht   Email Leorning Cniht   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
How in the bloody hell did it get to a court without the video being viewed? How did it result in a conviction?

The prosecutor filed charges based on the written police report alone, without reviewing any of the evidence. Mr. Wingate, who was apparently told by his lawyer "just sign, and everything basically goes away" agreed to a continuance for 2 years, subject to a set of conditions.

Should the prosecutor have reviewed the car's video? Maybe, but the system isn't set up to have the prosecutor be the line of defense against a lying cop, and while a prosecutor might want to review the evidence to ensure he has a good case, I rather suspect that in a lot of cases prosecutors move based on the police report alone, push the defendant into a plea bargain, and move on to the next case.

Did the defense attorney railroad Mr. Wingate into accepting the charge? The report rather sounds that way, but without knowing the details of the discussion between Mr. Wingate and his attorney, it's hard to say for certain. If the attorney wasn't very sure he could get a not guilty judgement in court, a "keep your nose clean for two years" continuance might be a rational tactic.

Posts: 5026 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2013  |  IP: Logged
lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333

 - Posted      Profile for lilBuddha     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:

Should the prosecutor have reviewed the car's video? Maybe, but the system isn't set up to have the prosecutor be the line of defense against a lying cop, and while a prosecutor might want to review the evidence to ensure he has a good case, I rather suspect that in a lot of cases prosecutors move based on the police report alone, push the defendant into a plea bargain, and move on to the next case.

No maybe, the tape should have been reviewed. Took less than 5 minutes of time to do so, no excuse.
quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:

Did the defense attorney railroad Mr. Wingate into accepting the charge? The report rather sounds that way, but without knowing the details of the discussion between Mr. Wingate and his attorney, it's hard to say for certain. If the attorney wasn't very sure he could get a not guilty judgement in court, a "keep your nose clean for two years" continuance might be a rational tactic.

Lousy defence attorney. Same reason as above.

--------------------
I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou

Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008  |  IP: Logged
saysay

Ship's Praying Mantis
# 6645

 - Posted      Profile for saysay   Email saysay   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
How in the bloody hell did it get to a court without the video being viewed? How did it result in a conviction?

For all the lofty rhetoric, that's how our criminal injustice system works in practice for anyone below the middle class.

Rule #1: never piss off a cop*.

*things that can piss off a cop: being the wrong color, gender, having a "funny" look on your face, mocking him by saying 'sir', being disrespectful by not saying 'sir', etc.

--------------------
"It's been a long day without you, my friend
I'll tell you all about it when I see you again"
"'Oh sweet baby purple Jesus' - that's a direct quote from a 9 year old - shoutout to purple Jesus."

Posts: 2943 | From: The Wire | Registered: May 2004  |  IP: Logged
Palimpsest
Shipmate
# 16772

 - Posted      Profile for Palimpsest   Email Palimpsest   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
My favorite part

quote:

Before [Police Chief] O’Toole announced she would be seeking a review of the officer’s conduct, police had said they believed the counseling Whitlatch received from her supervisor was “an appropriate resolution.

I'm sure the Police Guild will defend her right to give false testimony.

At least Seattle has apologized and gotten the continuance dismissed. For a look at a more typical reaction read this Letter from Alberqurque

[ 01. February 2015, 21:34: Message edited by: Palimpsest ]

Posts: 2990 | From: Seattle WA. US | Registered: Nov 2011  |  IP: Logged
cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338

 - Posted      Profile for cliffdweller     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Palimpsest:

At least Seattle has apologized and gotten the continuance dismissed. For a look at a more typical reaction read this Letter from Alberqurque

Lord have mercy. Literally.

--------------------
"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner

Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008  |  IP: Logged
Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468

 - Posted      Profile for Golden Key   Author's homepage     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Tonight's "The Lawn Chair" episode of ABC TV's "Scandal" is very relevant.

{Slight SPOILERS for series story arc:}

Olivia Pope is a "fixer" in Washington, DC. She fixes the problems of the rich, powerful, and famous. (Occasionally, other people, too.) She's African-American, and the sometime mistress and great love of the white president of the US.

In "The Lawn Chair", there's a Ferguson-type situation, and Olivia winds up right in the middle of it.

Very powerful episode. Looks at all sides. I haven't read the reviews, but I've seen headlines that indicate similar feelings.

It doesn't seem to be online yet. Maybe in a few days?

--------------------
Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")

Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110

 - Posted      Profile for Barnabas62   Email Barnabas62   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Hasn't arrived in the UK yet. "Scandal" is a pretty addictive series and I've been hooked by it. Will look out for the episode out of general interest, so thanks for the heads up.

--------------------
Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?

Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468

 - Posted      Profile for Golden Key   Author's homepage     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
"Scandal" always makes me feel like I'm watching the Old Testament/Hebrew scriptures. *That* level of personal mess and intrigue.

[Eek!]

--------------------
Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")

Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
romanlion
editorial comment
# 10325

 - Posted      Profile for romanlion     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Well as long as this thread has bobbed back to the surface....

This seems relevant as well.

From the article:

"In an 86-page report released Wednesday that detailed and evaluated the testimony of more than 40 witnesses, the Justice Department largely corroborated or found little credible evidence to contradict the account of the officer, Darren Wilson"


That's powerful stuff, considering the current AG.

--------------------
"You can't get rich in politics unless you're a crook" - Harry S. Truman

Posts: 1486 | From: White Rose City | Registered: Sep 2005  |  IP: Logged
betjemaniac
Shipmate
# 17618

 - Posted      Profile for betjemaniac     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
Hasn't arrived in the UK yet.

Be fair - it took House of Cards the best part of 30 years to go the other way...
[Big Grin]

--------------------
And is it true? For if it is....

Posts: 1481 | From: behind the dreaming spires | Registered: Mar 2013  |  IP: Logged
Soror Magna
Shipmate
# 9881

 - Posted      Profile for Soror Magna   Email Soror Magna   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by romanlion:
... From the article:

"In an 86-page report released Wednesday that detailed and evaluated the testimony of more than 40 witnesses, the Justice Department largely corroborated or found little credible evidence to contradict the account of the officer, Darren Wilson"


That's powerful stuff, considering the current AG.

Yes, and there was a lot of powerful stuff in the full Justice Department report. Stuff like this:

quote:
The Justice Department's investigation found a pattern of racial disparities among Ferguson Police, from use of force to traffic stops. The report argued these disparities can only be explained, at least in part, because of unlawful bias and stereotypes against African Americans.

The report noted that, although black people make up about 67 percent of Ferguson's population, 88 percent of documented uses of force by Ferguson police from 2010 to August 2014 were against African Americans. In the 14 police canine bite cases for which racial data was available, the people bitten were black.

There were similar racial disparities in traffic stops. From 2012 to 2014, 85 percent of people stopped, 90 percent of people who received a citation, and 93 percent of people arrested were black. Black drivers were more than twice as likely as their white counterparts to be searched during vehicle stops, but 26 percent less likely to have contraband.

Yep, that's powerful stuff. The report also describes how the Ferguson police were directed by city authorities to raise more revenue and targeted African-American residents to achieve that goal.
Read the full report here.

--------------------
"You come with me to room 1013 over at the hospital, I'll show you America. Terminal, crazy and mean." -- Tony Kushner, "Angels in America"

Posts: 5430 | From: Caprica City | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged
Crœsos
Shipmate
# 238

 - Posted      Profile for Crœsos     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Soror Magna:
Yep, that's powerful stuff. The report also describes how the Ferguson police were directed by city authorities to raise more revenue and targeted African-American residents to achieve that goal.
Read the full report here.

Also available from the Justice Department's website [PDF].

For those who don't want to wade through over a hundred pages of corruption and violence, the Washington Post has the tl;dr version. The organization described seems less like a law enforcement organization and more like a criminal conspiracy to plunder the black residents of Ferguson.

--------------------
Humani nil a me alienum puto

Posts: 10706 | From: Sardis, Lydia | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110

 - Posted      Profile for Barnabas62   Email Barnabas62   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
[Scandal tangent]
quote:
Originally posted by betjemaniac:
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
Hasn't arrived in the UK yet.

Be fair - it took House of Cards the best part of 30 years to go the other way...
[Big Grin]

Slight misunderstanding. The episode GK referred to is not yet available in the UK. But Series 4 is being screened on Sky Living and the first three series are also available.
[end Scandal tangent]

Back on the main theme. The shortcomings in Ferguson are scandalous and damning. It's hardly surprising that some guilt by association was applied to Darren Wilson. But the report on the shooting provides good confirmation that the Grand Jury finding was reasonable, whatever legitimate criticisms may apply to that specific process or more generally to the Ferguson authorities.

--------------------
Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?

Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
Crœsos
Shipmate
# 238

 - Posted      Profile for Crœsos     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
Back on the main theme. The shortcomings in Ferguson are scandalous and damning. It's hardly surprising that some guilt by association was applied to Darren Wilson. But the report on the shooting provides good confirmation that the Grand Jury finding was reasonable, whatever legitimate criticisms may apply to that specific process or more generally to the Ferguson authorities.

And yet a lot of people were surprised (or at least acted surprised) by the suggestion that the Ferguson Police Department or the local judiciary were anything other than paragons of truth and justice. The notion that maybe the Ferguson police would lie about their actions and be backed up by a complacent court system was treated some kind of wild-eyed conspiracy theory.

--------------------
Humani nil a me alienum puto

Posts: 10706 | From: Sardis, Lydia | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Palimpsest
Shipmate
# 16772

 - Posted      Profile for Palimpsest   Email Palimpsest   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
The report also makes it clear that many of the people in the city government are part of the problem;
a persistent problem of discrimination

quote:
In one instance in the report, a city official expressed unease about the injustice that kept the city afloat. In 2012, a City Council member wrote to other city officials opposing the reappointment of the municipal court judge, arguing that he “does not listen to the testimony, does not review the reports or the criminal history of defendants, and doesn’t let all the pertinent witnesses testify before rendering a verdict.”

The city manager acknowledged the judge’s shortcomings. But, according to the report, he said, “the City cannot afford to lose any efficiency in our Courts, nor experience any decrease in our Fines and Forfeitures.” The judge was reappointed.


Posts: 2990 | From: Seattle WA. US | Registered: Nov 2011  |  IP: Logged
Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110

 - Posted      Profile for Barnabas62   Email Barnabas62   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
@ Croesos

Linked earlier in the thread.

Folks polarised around the "two stories" for sure, but the facts don't fully support either story. The scandalous imperfections of Ferguson's "law and order" have been exposed, as has the evidence which supports the Grand Jury verdict re Wilson. That just doesn't fit the presuppositions of either polarised group.

And that's the problem with polarisation. Folks jump to conclusions.

--------------------
Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?

Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333

 - Posted      Profile for lilBuddha     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Not that I disagree about polarisation, B62, but they are not equal. One has history, and current practice, as an influencing factor.

--------------------
I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou

Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008  |  IP: Logged
Soror Magna
Shipmate
# 9881

 - Posted      Profile for Soror Magna   Email Soror Magna   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Conclusion 1: One Ferguson cop wasn't racist in one particular incident.

Conclusion 2: Ferguson police officers are generally racist.

One can leap to either conclusion, but Conclusion 2 has been shown to apply to a far greater number of police officers than Conclusion 1. Conclusion 2 also has a vastly more significant impact on the community than Conclusion 1.

--------------------
"You come with me to room 1013 over at the hospital, I'll show you America. Terminal, crazy and mean." -- Tony Kushner, "Angels in America"

Posts: 5430 | From: Caprica City | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged
Horseman Bree
Shipmate
# 5290

 - Posted      Profile for Horseman Bree   Email Horseman Bree   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
And, of course, the courts in Ferguson show no racial bias, or any other malfeasance at all...


NOT

What joy to know that poor people (not all of them black, TBF) can be thrown into debtors' prison until someone ransoms them. How great to be able to recreate pre-Industrial England (right down to living in a pile of feces while in jail), while the upper class drink champagne and, presumably, eat cake.

What happened to Marie Antoinette? Is there sufficient public force to bring back the America we once knew and sometimes loved?

--------------------
It's Not That Simple

Posts: 5372 | From: more herring choker than bluenose | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Dave W.
Shipmate
# 8765

 - Posted      Profile for Dave W.   Email Dave W.   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Horseman Bree:
Is there sufficient public force to bring back the America we once knew and sometimes loved?

Such yearning! Yet I'm struggling to imagine exactly when this America existed that "we" (by which I suppose you mean you) knew and loved.

When exactly was America known and loved by you for its fair and even-handed treatment of the poor and minorities at home, and modest and helpful engagement abroad? Or did it have some other praiseworthy virtue, now sadly lost?

Posts: 2059 | From: the hub of the solar system | Registered: Nov 2004  |  IP: Logged
Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110

 - Posted      Profile for Barnabas62   Email Barnabas62   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
I agree with Attorney General Eric Holder. Here is a quote from his 4 March statement.

quote:
I recognize that the findings in our report may leave some to wonder how the department’s findings can differ so sharply from some of the initial, widely reported accounts of what transpired. I want to emphasize that the strength and integrity of America’s justice system has always rested on its ability to deliver impartial results in precisely these types of difficult circumstances – adhering strictly to the facts and the law, regardless of assumptions. Yet it remains not only valid – but essential – to question how such a strong alternative version of events was able to take hold so swiftly, and be accepted so readily.

A possible explanation for this discrepancy was uncovered during the course of our second federal investigation, conducted by the Civil Rights Division to determine whether Ferguson Police officials have engaged in a widespread pattern or practice of violations of the U.S. Constitution or federal law.

As detailed in our searing report – also released by the Justice Department today – this investigation found a community that was deeply polarized; a community where deep distrust and hostility often characterized interactions between police and area residents.

Full transcript can be found here.

To judge from the reports about the Ferguson response - example here - it's hard to have much confidence in the local will to clean up the act.

[ 07. March 2015, 20:50: Message edited by: Barnabas62 ]

--------------------
Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?

Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333

 - Posted      Profile for lilBuddha     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
In fairness. I'm not certain what could be gained by the police chief attending other than if he did so to resign.
I hope people can now see why so many immediately believed the police were in the wrong.
I am not saying this belief should affect a particular ruling, but pointing out that the mistrust is based on reality.
Ferguson is not as isolated an example as it should be, we are not in a post-racial world.
If anything, this underscores the validity of the protests and the need for reform.

--------------------
I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou

Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008  |  IP: Logged
Palimpsest
Shipmate
# 16772

 - Posted      Profile for Palimpsest   Email Palimpsest   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
A new incident has occurred in Madison, Wisconsin. police officer shoots apparently unarmed black teenager

Details are still being reported.

There have been protests. Wisconsin passed a law last year that requires such police shootings to be investigated by a state agency and not left to the local police force.

It will be interesting to see how this differs given the liberal political attitudes in Madison if not the state. At the very least the Mayor and Police Chief haven't so far said anything to outrage the citizenry.

Posts: 2990 | From: Seattle WA. US | Registered: Nov 2011  |  IP: Logged
Horseman Bree
Shipmate
# 5290

 - Posted      Profile for Horseman Bree   Email Horseman Bree   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.:
quote:
Originally posted by Horseman Bree:
Is there sufficient public force to bring back the America we once knew and sometimes loved?

Such yearning! Yet I'm struggling to imagine exactly when this America existed that "we" (by which I suppose you mean you) knew and loved.

When exactly was America known and loved by you for its fair and even-handed treatment of the poor and minorities at home, and modest and helpful engagement abroad? Or did it have some other praiseworthy virtue, now sadly lost?



--------------------
It's Not That Simple

Posts: 5372 | From: more herring choker than bluenose | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Horseman Bree
Shipmate
# 5290

 - Posted      Profile for Horseman Bree   Email Horseman Bree   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Sorry, was interrupted.

I can remember a time when the Republic seemed to be heading in a generally better direction. There was a science program that wasn't being eviscerated by creationists; when women were being recognised as actual people, not just rape fantasies; when the abortion issue was basically settled; when the Voting Rights Act was seen to be a helpful thing; when you guys didn't have a party that totally opposed a President; when equality was sen as an actual part of your Constitutional deal; when having workers paid properly in decent jobs was seen as the foundation of a Great Society.

What have you got now? Duck Dynasty and Honey-Boo-Boo as icons of how to live; politicians who actively work at destroying the Office of the President; wars that are fought for no visible reason, with weapons that would be regarded as inhumane by anyone but Dr. Strangelove; and a population that thinks Elvis is still alive.

--------------------
It's Not That Simple

Posts: 5372 | From: more herring choker than bluenose | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Porridge
Shipmate
# 15405

 - Posted      Profile for Porridge   Email Porridge   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Horseman Bree:
Sorry, was interrupted.

I can remember a time when the Republic seemed to be heading in a generally better direction.

Seemed to whom? I don't know how old you are, but I'm less than a decade away from retirement. I was a pre-teen when MLK was murdered, and in my mid-teens when women were marching for treatment as humans in their own right. When was this golden age when people of color, women, and sexual minorities enjoyed -- or were in clear sight of enjoying -- full equality and fair and equal treatment under US law?

quote:
Originally posted by Horseman Bree:
There was a science program that wasn't being eviscerated by creationists;

I'm reasonably sure that mine isn't the only part of the country where regular old bio, chem, & physics form a normal part of high school curricula in local school districts, although back when I was in school we dissected actual frogs, and now they use virtual ones.

quote:
Originally posted by Horseman Bree:
. . . when women were being recognised as actual people, not just rape fantasies;

When & where was this "actual people" scenario playing out, exactly? I remember things differently, and I've been a woman for more than 3 decades.

quote:
Originally posted by Horseman Bree:
when the abortion issue was basically settled;

This I do remember. A woman couldn't legally get one, period.

quote:
Originally posted by Horseman Bree:
. . . when the Voting Rights Act was seen to be a helpful thing;

Unless maybe you were a certain Southern governor and the folks who voted him into office . . .

. . . and on and on and on.

See, here's the thing: if you find it so trying to live next to the US, there's an assortment of oceans you could put between you and The Great Satan. What really puzzles me, though, is how you can rub virtual shoulders with so many US Shipmates who clearly do not oppose the President, believe in equality and fair pay, have no truck with Duck Dynasty or Honey Boo Boo (though clearly you must, in order to know them well enough to heap contempt on them), oppose our government's military actions, etc. etc., and yet (depite this regular interaction with such Americans), go right on lumping us all together in a single undifferentiated knuckle-dragging mass.

What is your problem?

--------------------
Spiggott: Everything I've ever told you is a lie, including that.
Moon: Including what?
Spiggott: That everything I've ever told you is a lie.
Moon: That's not true!

Posts: 3925 | From: Upper right corner | Registered: Jan 2010  |  IP: Logged
Dave W.
Shipmate
# 8765

 - Posted      Profile for Dave W.   Email Dave W.   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Horseman Bree:
Sorry, was interrupted.

I can remember a time when the Republic seemed to be heading in a generally better direction.

Again - when exactly was this?

And what wars has the US fought in your lifetime (and with what weapons) that you found so much more congenial than those of today?

Posts: 2059 | From: the hub of the solar system | Registered: Nov 2004  |  IP: Logged
Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468

 - Posted      Profile for Golden Key   Author's homepage     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
What Porridge and Dave W said.

HB, I've suspected for a long time that you want to believe in American ideals so much that it hurts you when you find that we don't live up to them.

It reminds me of a pastor I met who was deeply against speaking in tongues. Turned out, he'd gone to a charismatic service. Someone spoke in tongues--and the pastor understood, because the message was in an ancient language that he understood. Fine and good--except someone stood up and gave a false translation. Somewhere in there, the pastor decided that the whole thing was false, and became bitterly against speaking in tongues. Emphasis on "bitterly". He couldn't deal with the discrepancy.

--------------------
Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")

Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
Palimpsest
Shipmate
# 16772

 - Posted      Profile for Palimpsest   Email Palimpsest   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
It's been downhill since Jackson and the takeover by parties or factions.

Still, I wonder if there was a sense of liberal progression starting in the sixties that coincided with the coming of age of the baby boom. Yes, there was a struggle, but it looked like things would be getting better.

That optimism seems to be gone, along with the sense that there is boundless opportunity.
That may be related to the decline of the baby boomers.

Posts: 2990 | From: Seattle WA. US | Registered: Nov 2011  |  IP: Logged
Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081

 - Posted      Profile for Eutychus   Author's homepage     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
hosting/
quote:
Originally posted by Horseman Bree:
What have you got now? Duck Dynasty and Honey-Boo-Boo as icons of how to live; politicians who actively work at destroying the Office of the President; wars that are fought for no visible reason, with weapons that would be regarded as inhumane by anyone but Dr. Strangelove; and a population that thinks Elvis is still alive.

Your defiance of my recent warning directed at you against fuelling pond wars is noted. To the admins.
/hosting

--------------------
Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy

Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002  |  IP: Logged
romanlion
editorial comment
# 10325

 - Posted      Profile for romanlion     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
The (second) odd silence on this thread says more than every word herein....

--------------------
"You can't get rich in politics unless you're a crook" - Harry S. Truman

Posts: 1486 | From: White Rose City | Registered: Sep 2005  |  IP: Logged
ChastMastr
Shipmate
# 716

 - Posted      Profile for ChastMastr   Author's homepage   Email ChastMastr   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by romanlion:
The (second) odd silence on this thread says more than every word herein....

That after 21 pages, other than "racism is horrible, it hasn't gone away, and things have been spiraling out of control, and we have to try to fix this somehow, God have mercy," there's little else to say?

--------------------
My essays on comics continuity: http://chastmastr.tumblr.com/tagged/continuity

Posts: 14068 | From: Clearwater, Florida | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
orfeo

Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878

 - Posted      Profile for orfeo   Author's homepage   Email orfeo   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Soror Magna:
Conclusion 1: One Ferguson cop wasn't racist in one particular incident.

Conclusion 2: Ferguson police officers are generally racist.

One can leap to either conclusion, but Conclusion 2 has been shown to apply to a far greater number of police officers than Conclusion 1. Conclusion 2 also has a vastly more significant impact on the community than Conclusion 1.

Indeed it does. But much of my criticism in relation to this whole affair was on people's insistence on treating Case 1 as if it must be an example of Systemic Problem 2.

I in fact said that often the cases that are made poster-childs for campaigns are exactly the cases that shouldn't be used because they don't fit.

[ 13. March 2015, 01:43: Message edited by: orfeo ]

--------------------
Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.

Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008  |  IP: Logged
orfeo

Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878

 - Posted      Profile for orfeo   Author's homepage   Email orfeo   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
And in fact, even with that report there's still capacity for the same kind of flawed logic that applies an overall finding to an individual case.

You can bet a large sum that people are going to use the statistics about the proportion of arrests that are of African-Americans (93 percent, when they are only 67 per cent of the population) and say "you arrested me because I'm black", and statistically in about 2 out of every 3 cases that argument is going to be false.

--------------------
Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.

Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008  |  IP: Logged
lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333

 - Posted      Profile for lilBuddha     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Only if those arrests are for unique crimes. If a significant number are black person arrested, found not remotely connected, proper investigation done, non-black person who actually fits the evidence then arrested; then the stats will be even more lopsided.
There is also the possibility that black people are arrested for things that white people are not, which also might skew the statistics.
Hey, wait, I've heard about a place where this has happened. Someplace in the US, possibly in Missouri. Big investigation, results in the news I think. Now where was that?

--------------------
I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou

Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008  |  IP: Logged
RuthW

liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13

 - Posted      Profile for RuthW     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Which is zero comfort to one out of three.

If one out of three times white people were stopped by cops it was complete bullshit ... well, I can't finish that sentence. Because none of my interactions with police have had anything to do with my being white.

Posts: 24453 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
Palimpsest
Shipmate
# 16772

 - Posted      Profile for Palimpsest   Email Palimpsest   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Perhaps, but the argument holds that Police seem to always arrest only Black people and with frequent horror stories about Police arresting Black people on trumped up charges while dropping tickets for White people who are friend of the City Government still hold. It's unsurprising that the Blacks in Ferguson assumed this was just another incident of illegal violence.

Ferguson bias doesn't have a border is an article that points out that some of the gross bias in statistics is not restricted to the rotten government in Ferguson. Other cities in the area have even worse statistics. Also a number of the cities are violating the state law that caps the percentage of municipal revenue that can come from traffic fines at 30 percent.

[ 13. March 2015, 03:31: Message edited by: Palimpsest ]

Posts: 2990 | From: Seattle WA. US | Registered: Nov 2011  |  IP: Logged
orfeo

Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878

 - Posted      Profile for orfeo   Author's homepage   Email orfeo   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Hey, wait, I've heard about a place where this has happened. Someplace in the US, possibly in Missouri. Big investigation, results in the news I think. Now where was that?

Dunno. It didn't make NEARLY as big a splash as the story that a white cop got away with murder.
Although it did manage to make a bigger splash than the findings that actually, no he didn't.

Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008  |  IP: Logged
Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110

 - Posted      Profile for Barnabas62   Email Barnabas62   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
When it comes to assessing the guilt or innocence of a particular individual, assumptions based on the race or employment of any individual are basically unfair and can lead to profound injustice. That principle cuts both ways. A point profoundly underlined, certainly burned into my mind, by the trial of Tom Robinson in 'To Kill a Mocking Bird'.

Above the Old Bailey in London, the statue symbolising justice holds scales to symbolise the weighing of evidence. She is blindfold, symbolising that all trials should not make assumptions based on the appearance or status of individuals. Of course these are ideals and of course they are not always applied with equity in practice. But they inform the mind about the proper standards to be applied.

--------------------
Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?

Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333

 - Posted      Profile for lilBuddha     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Response to orfeo:
You are thinking confirmation bias, I am thinking confirmation of bias.
Connect the dots. The findings confirm why people don't trust the authorities. Because they cannot be blindly trusted and that there still exists a strong bias. And too large a percentage of the time, they will be justified in their fears.
so how are people supposed to react to the verdict? "Way hey, he didn't commit murder, but given his wonky narrative he probably escalated the confrontation uneccesarily to deadly force and caused a preventable death. But it the charge over-reached and the prosecution couldn't prove its case so yea Justice"?

[ 13. March 2015, 05:26: Message edited by: lilBuddha ]

--------------------
I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou

Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008  |  IP: Logged
Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110

 - Posted      Profile for Barnabas62   Email Barnabas62   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
His narrative wasn't wonky. That's essentially what that 87 page report concluded. It also demolished a large number of genuinely wonky witness narratives. That's what weighing the facts against the testimony can do.

--------------------
Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?

Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
Palimpsest
Shipmate
# 16772

 - Posted      Profile for Palimpsest   Email Palimpsest   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
It's worth noting that since the DOJ report which exonerates the policeman, there hasn't been much, if any, challenge of its findings on that subject by anyone.
That didn't happen when Grand Jury came to the same conclusion. The second part of the DOJ report explains why local Black people not trust the local legal system to produce a true description of anything.

Posts: 2990 | From: Seattle WA. US | Registered: Nov 2011  |  IP: Logged
Hiro's Leap

Shipmate
# 12470

 - Posted      Profile for Hiro's Leap   Email Hiro's Leap   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
statistically in about 2 out of every 3 cases that argument is going to be false.

It also assumes that white people and black people in Ferguson are equally likely to commit crime. Since black Americans are (on average) poorer than white ones, and many types of crime correlate to poverty, this may not be a valid assumption.

If you want to determine whether the police are racist, you need to compare statistics for black vs white people within a similar income bracket, not for the wider population.

It seems possible to me that the key problem here isn't the police, but a lack of social mobility and integration in the US that keeps many black Americans poor.

Posts: 3418 | From: UK, OK | Registered: Mar 2007  |  IP: Logged
lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333

 - Posted      Profile for lilBuddha     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
His narrative wasn't wonky. That's essentially what that 87 page report concluded. It also demolished a large number of genuinely wonky witness narratives. That's what weighing the facts against the testimony can do.

Alright, comment was not accurate. But, reading through parts of the report, the evidence and its corroboration of wilson's account is focussed on what happened after the initial confrontation. That is where all the forensic evidence is. Where it is not is the initial confrontation. It is not unreasonable to suspect Wilson began the confrontation poorly and set the stage for escalation. Does this mean he is a murderer? No,
Does this mean that Brown was an innocent? No.
But there is still plenty of room to think Wilson's actions were at least partially responsible for an unnecessary death.

--------------------
I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou

Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008  |  IP: Logged
M.
Ship's Spare Part
# 3291

 - Posted      Profile for M.   Email M.   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Tangent - the statue atop the Old Bailey isn't blindfold.

M.

Posts: 2303 | From: Lurking in Surrey | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110

 - Posted      Profile for Barnabas62   Email Barnabas62   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
lilBuddha

Without re-running that whole thing yet again, there are really only two accounts of that initial encounter, from Darren Wilson and from Michael Brown's companion. Which of those two has the greater credibility?

I've read that latter testimony in its entirety and Michael Brown's companion damaged his own credibility irreparably by his account of the struggle while Darren Wilson was in the car. What he testified to wasn't just contradicted by the forensic evidence, it just didn't make sense.

Now of course his account of the first encounter (when they were walking down the centre of the road) might be accurate and Darren Wilson might be lying about that. There might have been some perceived provocation. But so far as I can see, all you have in support of that is the testimony of an unreliable witness. That's a pretty weak thread to tie the albatross of provocation around Darren Wilson's neck. Regardless of how provocative police behaviour might have been, typically, in that neighbourhood.

[ 13. March 2015, 06:37: Message edited by: Barnabas62 ]

--------------------
Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?

Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
orfeo

Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878

 - Posted      Profile for orfeo   Author's homepage   Email orfeo   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Connect the dots. The findings confirm why people don't trust the authorities. Because they cannot be blindly trusted and that there still exists a strong bias. And too large a percentage of the time, they will be justified in their fears.

Certainly. No argument there. The findings on the systemic question (which as I understand it is separate to the report on the single incident) do confirm all that.

quote:
so how are people supposed to react to the verdict? "Way hey, he didn't commit murder, but given his wonky narrative he probably escalated the confrontation uneccesarily to deadly force and caused a preventable death. But it the charge over-reached and the prosecution couldn't prove its case so yea Justice"?
First, they're supposed to not build the conclusion into the reaction by asserting that the narrative was wonky as if that's an established fact.

Second, they're supposed to stop buying into the basic assumption that "our opponents in this systemic fight are biased" means "our opponents in this systemic fight are always wrong". It's just not true.

No matter how many people treat politics as a team sport whereby, if you're a Democrat, a Republican can never say anything helpful or insightful, it's not true.

No matter how many people cheer every decision in a sporting contest that favours their team and boo every decision that favours the opposing team, the referee is often correct when he rules against you.

You don't solve bias in one direction by simply applying equal and opposite bias. You don't address a working assumption that in any encounter, the black person is at fault by replacing it with a working assumption that in any encounter, the white authority figure is at fault. That's not justice, that's just revenge.

[ 13. March 2015, 07:19: Message edited by: orfeo ]

Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008  |  IP: Logged
Moo

Ship's tough old bird
# 107

 - Posted      Profile for Moo   Email Moo   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
There is an omission in the report about disparate traffic stops of black drivers. They compare the percentage of black stops to the percentage of blacks living in Ferguson. It is probably not the case that every driver who is stopped in Ferguson lives there.

The only traffic citation I have ever received was in a town adjacent to the one where I lived.

Moo

--------------------
Kerygmania host
---------------------
See you later, alligator.

Posts: 20365 | From: Alleghany Mountains of Virginia | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged



Pages in this thread: 1  2  3  ...  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  ...  32  33  34 
 
Post new thread  Post a reply Close thread   Feature thread   Move thread   Delete thread Next oldest thread   Next newest thread
 - Printer-friendly view
Go to:

Contact us | Ship of Fools | Privacy statement

© Ship of Fools 2016

Powered by Infopop Corporation
UBB.classicTM 6.5.0

 
follow ship of fools on twitter
buy your ship of fools postcards
sip of fools mugs from your favourite nautical website
 
 
  ship of fools