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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Purgatory: Ferguson and its implications
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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Teilhard:
I want a non"racist" SOCIETY … It will take time …
What is not clear about this … ???
The part where you shrug your shoulders and don't want to do anything to help society become less racist.
Wanting a non-racist society means not tolerating racism.
Posts: 5026 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2013
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Teilhard
Shipmate
# 16342
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
quote:
Originally posted by Teilhard:
Whether we like it or not, whether it is an ideal arrangement or not, every human institution -- including police departments, courts, councils, internet discussion groups, school faculties, etc. -- is staffed entirely and solely by sinful fallible flawed human beings
Well, yes, police officers are human, and as such will make mistakes, and some of them will be bad people.
But some fraction of the population engage in criminal behaviour. We don't tolerate that in police officers - if a police officer is caught burgling houses or selling drugs on street corners, we don't expect to reassign him to a desk job.
Why should we treat racist police differently?
The police, as has been mentioned several times on this thread, are given special authority that ordinary people don't have. By virtue of that authority, a racist (or otherwise bad) police officer can do more harm than he could if he had another job. A racist cop is worse for society than a racist librarian or a racist bank teller.
Yes, there's lots of racism around, but the people we select to be police officers should be, perhaps, from the least racist half of the population.
Also note that a racist environment breeds more racism. If you're borderline racist, and you spend your time hanging out with racists, you will become more racist. Maybe you can't fire every racist, but if you fire the worst examples, you'll make those you didn't fire less racist than they would otherwise be, just by removing the worst influences. Plus you make it clear that, whatever people's private opinions, if they commit egregious racist acts they're going to be out of work.
Like it or not, our police officers grow up in and reflect our society … We don't have the luxury of importing them from Heaven …
And every one of them is a fallible flawed sinful human being who is imperfect and does make mistakes ...
Posts: 401 | From: Minnesota | Registered: Apr 2011
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Teilhard
Shipmate
# 16342
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
quote:
Originally posted by Teilhard:
I want a non"racist" SOCIETY … It will take time …
What is not clear about this … ???
The part where you shrug your shoulders and don't want to do anything to help society become less racist.
Wanting a non-racist society means not tolerating racism.
Excuse me … ???
You have no idea of what I do and have done PERSONALLY to mitigate the problem of "racism" in our society in general …
However, I harbor no Messianic illusions that I can and could should end "racism" single handedly if only I would just follow the ten easy steps offered by harsh all-knowing self righteous critics … It is to THOSE such folks that I offer my … *shrug* ...
Posts: 401 | From: Minnesota | Registered: Apr 2011
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Porridge
Shipmate
# 15405
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Teilhard:
Like it or not, our police officers grow up in and reflect our society … We don't have the luxury of importing them from Heaven …
And every one of them is a fallible flawed sinful human being who is imperfect and does make mistakes ...
Who has suggested that we import our police personnel from Heaven? I grant, one poster has suggested we import vacationing Swedish cops, but I'm assuming that was in jest.
What Leorning Cniht has suggested is that we recruit police from the less-racist half of our society. What problem, if any, do you have with that suggestion?
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Spiggott: Everything I've ever told you is a lie, including that.
Moon: Including what?
Spiggott: That everything I've ever told you is a lie.
Moon: That's not true!
Posts: 3925 | From: Upper right corner | Registered: Jan 2010
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Teilhard
Shipmate
# 16342
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Porridge:
quote:
Originally posted by Teilhard:
Like it or not, our police officers grow up in and reflect our society … We don't have the luxury of importing them from Heaven …
And every one of them is a fallible flawed sinful human being who is imperfect and does make mistakes ...
Who has suggested that we import our police personnel from Heaven? I grant, one poster has suggested we import vacationing Swedish cops, but I'm assuming that was in jest.
What Leorning Cniht has suggested is that we recruit police from the less-racist half of our society. What problem, if any, do you have with that suggestion?
Okay …
For the sake of all communities everywhere, perhaps you can now start drawing up a comprehensive trust worthy list of all persons known dependableyto be "non-racist" ...
Posts: 401 | From: Minnesota | Registered: Apr 2011
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Porridge
Shipmate
# 15405
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Posted
A list? Why a list, when a reasonably reliable test already exists, which we could ask applicants to take when they apply for jobs or places in police training academies?
[ 26. April 2015, 20:30: Message edited by: Porridge ]
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Spiggott: Everything I've ever told you is a lie, including that.
Moon: Including what?
Spiggott: That everything I've ever told you is a lie.
Moon: That's not true!
Posts: 3925 | From: Upper right corner | Registered: Jan 2010
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Teilhard
Shipmate
# 16342
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Teilhard:
quote:
Originally posted by Porridge:
A list? Why a list, when a reasonably reliable test already exists, which we could ask applicants to take when they apply for jobs or places in police training academies?
Sounds like a plan ...
My over all preference, though … is for an integrated (!!!) realistic understanding of life in human community … taking account of differences, foibles, and even sins (!!!) …
See, in my Tradition, "sins" can be forgiven -- on condition of true contrition … leading to "amendment of life" …
Posts: 401 | From: Minnesota | Registered: Apr 2011
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
Host Hat On
Teilhard
This is a formal warning. Overuse of punctuation is not the greatest Commandment or Guideline breach by any means but it seems very clear from your recent posts that you are using it in support of a more generally provocative style of response. That is more serious. It is not a proper engagement in serious discussion.
Admin, not Hosts, make decisions on provocative posting styles, in accordance with Commandment 1. So I am referring your pattern of posting behaviour to them.
Meanwhile, I suggest you lay off the over-punctuation and dial down the provocation.
Barnabas62
Purgatory Host
Host Hat Off
[ 27. April 2015, 07:18: Message edited by: Barnabas62 ]
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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Soror Magna
Shipmate
# 9881
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Posted
Well, now it's Baltimore. This is interesting because it explains, among other things, the legal arguments that police can use to justify shooting people in the back because of the neighbourhood they live in.
[ 29. April 2015, 01:33: Message edited by: Soror Magna ]
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"You come with me to room 1013 over at the hospital, I'll show you America. Terminal, crazy and mean." -- Tony Kushner, "Angels in America"
Posts: 5430 | From: Caprica City | Registered: Jul 2005
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
Soror Magna--
I skimmed the article. Wow.
![[Mad]](angryfire.gif) ![[Tear]](graemlins/tear.gif)
From the basic film clips I've seen on the news, Freddie looked like he was in bad shape when they started to drag him to the van. Didn't look like a resisting sort of dragging. More like collapse. NOT saying the police weren't responsible, just that the problem may have started before the van.
I don't understand why, in this and other cases, the police don't even make the appearance of giving first aid or getting medical help. Even if they think it was an accident, or that they were totally justified, or are hard-core sadistic haters, you'd think that--by now--they'd have the sense to realize that this is going to cause really bad PR, and they should at least *look* like they give a damn.
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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Crœsos
Shipmate
# 238
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
From the basic film clips I've seen on the news, Freddie looked like he was in bad shape when they started to drag him to the van. Didn't look like a resisting sort of dragging. More like collapse. NOT saying the police weren't responsible, just that the problem may have started before the van.
Well that's the mystery, isn't it? Freddie Gray is apparently well enough to run away from police at a good clip of speed immediately before his arrest (which we wouldn't expect if his spinal cord was already partially severed), but somehow ends up dead due to causes that no one in the Baltimore Police Department or Mayor's office can explain. From the Atlantic:
quote:
Freddie Gray's death on April 19 leaves many unanswered questions. But it is clear that when Gray was arrested in West Baltimore on the morning of April 12, he was struggling to walk. By the time he arrived at the police station a half hour later, he was unable to breathe or talk, suffering from wounds that would kill him.*
<snip>
The police say Gray didn't resist arrest and that officers didn't use force, which seems to be mostly corroborated by video shot by bystanders. Gray seems to shout in pain, and his leg seems injured as officers drag him to a police van. (Someone off camera shouts, "His leg broke and y'all dragging him like that!") Gray also had asthma and requested his inhaler, but didn't get it. Yet it's not the leg or the asthma that killed him. Instead, it was a grave injury to his spinal cord. Gray's family said he was treated for three fractured vertebrae and a crushed voice box, the sorts of injuries that doctors say are usually caused by serious car accidents. The van made at least two stops before reaching the police station, but there's no footage to say what happened during the journey or at those stops.
It's a baffling conundrum. "None of the officers describe any use of force," Deputy Police Commissioner Jerry Rodriguez said. "None of the officers describe using any force against Mr. Gray." And yet somehow Gray was fatally hurt while in police custody.
So we're left with a lack of information in which we can only speculate. More to the point, there are all kinds of questions that the Baltimore PD should be able to answer, but apparently either can't or won't.
[ 29. April 2015, 15:18: Message edited by: Crœsos ]
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Humani nil a me alienum puto
Posts: 10706 | From: Sardis, Lydia | Registered: May 2001
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
The kind of evidence which would convict a civilian is a somehow a conundrum when police are involved.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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saysay
Ship's Praying Mantis
# 6645
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Posted
Well, they have more rights than mere mortals.
Why Dems aren't necessarily feeling the love in some neighborhoods.
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"It's been a long day without you, my friend
I'll tell you all about it when I see you again"
"'Oh sweet baby purple Jesus' - that's a direct quote from a 9 year old - shoutout to purple Jesus."
Posts: 2943 | From: The Wire | Registered: May 2004
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
From the basic film clips I've seen on the news, Freddie looked like he was in bad shape when they started to drag him to the van. Didn't look like a resisting sort of dragging. More like collapse. NOT saying the police weren't responsible, just that the problem may have started before the van.
Well that's the mystery, isn't it? Freddie Gray is apparently well enough to run away from police at a good clip of speed immediately before his arrest (which we wouldn't expect if his spinal cord was already partially severed), but somehow ends up dead due to causes that no one in the Baltimore Police Department or Mayor's office can explain.
FWIW: I brought up the way he looked *to me* when they first dragged him, because virtually all the media I encountered said he looked fine before he got into the van. I only heard one person who noticed what I did.
To me, it looks like *something* may have happened before Freddie was put in the van. It may well not have been the spinal break, but there was something.
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
If you google walking around with a broken neck, you will find a number of high profile cases. Usually, as soon as it is discovered they are rushed into treatment because a relatively minor shock to the neck could be fatal.
It is remotely possible that Freddie Gay had a pre-existing injury that started to destabilise during the chase, and killed him because it was jarred during the van ride - but it is highly improbable. Might explain why his leg suddenly stopped working though.
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
I don't think the expedited autopsy report is out yet; that will be a summary, the full report will take a little longer. I'm sure that will cover any evidence of pre-existing injuries.
Personally, I'm with Croesos at this stage. The circumstances do look extraordinarily suspicious. People can hardly be blamed for seeing that at least. The forensic evidence will clarify the justification for those suspicions.
I guess Ferguson demonstrated the dangers of instant conclusions. The "two stories", and folks' pre-existing preferences for one or the other, are in play again, to judge from the Google entries. People seem less prepared these days to wait for the detailed evidence to tell its own specific story. Given current patterns, you can hardly blame them for that either.
The quality and integrity of policing in the US is mired in a world of trouble these days and the loss of confidence will not be dealt with simply by case-by-case investigations.
[ 30. April 2015, 16:23: Message edited by: Barnabas62 ]
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
life is not case-by-case, why should Justice be?
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Crœsos
Shipmate
# 238
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Posted
Possibly relevant: A Philadelphia-based article from 2001 detailing the police practice vernacularly known as "nickel rides". The practice would seem to be consistent with the type of injuries allegedly sustained by Mr. Gray, though that by itself is not proof.
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Humani nil a me alienum puto
Posts: 10706 | From: Sardis, Lydia | Registered: May 2001
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
I'd be interested to see the Baltimore PD version of this.
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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Porridge
Shipmate
# 15405
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Posted
Just heard an unconfirmed radio report that the van made a previously unreported stop en route to the station.
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Spiggott: Everything I've ever told you is a lie, including that.
Moon: Including what?
Spiggott: That everything I've ever told you is a lie.
Moon: That's not true!
Posts: 3925 | From: Upper right corner | Registered: Jan 2010
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Crœsos
Shipmate
# 238
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Porridge:
Just heard an unconfirmed radio report that the van made a previously unreported stop en route to the station.
It's something the Baltimore PD has confirmed, so we can be fairly certain of its accuracy.
quote:
Baltimore police announced today that newly obtained security camera footage showed the police van transporting Freddie Gray made a previously unknown stop on the day he was arrested.
<snip>
[Deputy Commissioner Kevin] Davis said they learned of the new stop after examining footage from a privately owned security camera. The only detail he announced about this stop was that it took place at North Fremont Avenue and Mosher Street.
From this we can surmise that full cooperation is not forthcoming from the officers involved, since they should remember the stops made, and that records of such stops are either not made or are easily altered after the fact. Having to rely on "footage from a privately owned security camera" indicates there's stonewalling going on by at least some parties involved. The fact that this information is now in the media indicates that this stonewalling was at least partially unsuccessful.
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Humani nil a me alienum puto
Posts: 10706 | From: Sardis, Lydia | Registered: May 2001
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romanlion
editorial comment
# 10325
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Posted
The kid did it to himself. Sounds like another person in the back of the vehicle is saying so. Also a bolt inside the van that matches the head wound.
Hands up! Don't shoot! ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
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"You can't get rich in politics unless you're a crook" - Harry S. Truman
Posts: 1486 | From: White Rose City | Registered: Sep 2005
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
Yes, I saw that, Chris. And, again, the autopsy should be able to consider the plausibility of self-inflicted hurt. romanlion's assertion may fit one of the "two scenarios", but it needs rather more than an assertion of the content of a statement by another prisoner who may not have been able to see what was happening, and who may have reasons of his own for a statement.
That was one of the other lessons from Ferguson. There were plenty of witness statements flying around which flew in the face of the forensics.
[ 30. April 2015, 22:36: Message edited by: Barnabas62 ]
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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saysay
Ship's Praying Mantis
# 6645
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by romanlion:
The kid did it to himself. Sounds like another person in the back of the vehicle is saying so. Also a bolt inside the van that matches the head wound.
Hands up! Don't shoot!
Oh, yeah. Point violence.
Don't say we didn't warn you. (I can't control this reaction to injustice - don't pretend that I can).
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"It's been a long day without you, my friend
I'll tell you all about it when I see you again"
"'Oh sweet baby purple Jesus' - that's a direct quote from a 9 year old - shoutout to purple Jesus."
Posts: 2943 | From: The Wire | Registered: May 2004
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
Here's what's probably a stupid question, but anyway ...
I'm assuming there's a fairly high rate of prisoners deliberately injuring themselves in the back of vans and claiming "the cops did it!", it would be a means by which the person in custody might think it could cast doubt on his arrest, maybe gets some compensation, etc.
Therefore, it would seem that installing cameras in the back of police vans would be a good idea, as it would provide positive evidence of the innocence of police officers faced with false charges of injuring a prisoner.
I'm further going to assume that cameras were not fitted to the van in this case, otherwise the speculation about what happened would be settled. Is there any reason why such equipment is not routinely used?
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
Is there any reason why such equipment is not routinely used?
The same reason there's resistance to bodycams, I guess.
But you always have the scenario (like at Hillsborough) where the CCTV footage 'disappears'. Cameras aren't a universal panacea.
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Forward the New Republic
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
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jbohn
Shipmate
# 8753
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Posted
I'd guess in some cases it's simply economics - newer vehicles may (or may not) have cameras, etc. installed at delivery, but older ones aren't retrofitted due to cost.
Then, of course, there's the "lost film" issue. Ideally, you'd have realtime streamed delivery to a secure storage location that the PD doesn't have access to (state attorney's office or some such) - but that's a pretty expensive and technologically challenging proposition.
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We are punished by our sins, not for them.
--Elbert Hubbard
Posts: 989 | From: East of Eden, west of St. Paul | Registered: Nov 2004
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Soror Magna
Shipmate
# 9881
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Posted
To be fair, there is also the matter of the privacy of citizens being continuously recorded by police. Before deploying any sort of police surveillance it's essential to establish how that information will be used / stored / disseminated. In addition, recording, storing and retrieving the data requires equipment and an operating budget. And given the pace of technological change, it will require con$tant inve$tment and upgrade$ to remain useful.
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"You come with me to room 1013 over at the hospital, I'll show you America. Terminal, crazy and mean." -- Tony Kushner, "Angels in America"
Posts: 5430 | From: Caprica City | Registered: Jul 2005
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Crœsos
Shipmate
# 238
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Soror Magna:
To be fair, there is also the matter of the privacy of citizens being continuously recorded by police.
Except in this case we're talking about someone already in police custody, a situation where typical privacy considerations usually don't apply.
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Humani nil a me alienum puto
Posts: 10706 | From: Sardis, Lydia | Registered: May 2001
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Porridge
Shipmate
# 15405
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Posted
OK, I'm going to throw in something only partially relevant here.
I spent a short time as an adjunct instructor at a community college which houses this state's police training academy. During my brief stint as a college instructor (to which I'm considering returning), I had several criminal justice students.
They were the worst of my students -- academically, behaviorally, maturationally (if that's a word) -- indeed, in every way possible.
I was teaching a basic sociology course they were required ti take. Things got so bad I had to seek help with classroom management (and I have a day job dealing with folks who are psychiatrically & developmentally challenged!).
All the other instructors I consulted said they had the same issues. The majority of the CJ students consider any course not run out of the CJ department a joke; they all seek to 'game' the academic system; they cheat, plagiarize, try to take over the class, etc. etc.
I finally went to see the head of the CJ program. His response was, "This is an open admission system; these are the applicants we get, and we have to take them."
In vain did I point out that the whole school was (almost -- not really quite) open admission, but that this was the one program whose students routinely caused problems.
He said, "Well, we depend on you guys to weed out the bad apples."
!!! I said, "Shouldn't you be doing that? Seriously, do you want people like this acquiring badges and service revolvers?"
I haven't shared this on this thread, feeling my experience, so abbreviated, can hardly be representative. But I wonder. This is a two-year program, and people are coming into with the mindset some of these officers seem to have coming out of whatever training they get (if any).
Posts: 3925 | From: Upper right corner | Registered: Jan 2010
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chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
Here's what's probably a stupid question, but anyway ...
I'm assuming there's a fairly high rate of prisoners deliberately injuring themselves in the back of vans and claiming "the cops did it!", it would be a means by which the person in custody might think it could cast doubt on his arrest, maybe gets some compensation, etc.
Though in general the incidence of someone crushing their own voicebox is fairly rare.
Posts: 4035 | From: Berkshire | Registered: May 2007
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
Autopsy, Chris? There will be a report on cause of death, pre mortem and post mortem injuries.
I agree with you re the likelihood of self-inflicted damage to the vocal chords and associated tissue. But the extent of the damage remains to be seen. What we've got so far are non-authoritative reports (from a medical POV) and a fair bit of hearsay.
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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saysay
Ship's Praying Mantis
# 6645
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
I'm assuming there's a fairly high rate of prisoners deliberately injuring themselves in the back of vans and claiming "the cops did it!", it would be a means by which the person in custody might think it could cast doubt on his arrest, maybe gets some compensation, etc.
Recent events may have damaged my irony meter, so if I'm misreading you, I apologize.
But there is not a high rate of prisoners injuring themselves in order to claim 'the cops did it.' In the US, there is no payoff to that - if anything you get blamed for bringing it on yourself by resisting (and catch an additional charge).
There are a lot of people injured by cops.
There are sometimes people who claim to be injured when they are not, as the cops are obligated to arrange for medical care, and hospital rooms are generally nicer than prison cells.
But I can't think of even a single rumor of somebody deliberately injuring themselves and claiming the cops did it.
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"It's been a long day without you, my friend
I'll tell you all about it when I see you again"
"'Oh sweet baby purple Jesus' - that's a direct quote from a 9 year old - shoutout to purple Jesus."
Posts: 2943 | From: The Wire | Registered: May 2004
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by jbohn:
I'd guess in some cases it's simply economics - newer vehicles may (or may not) have cameras, etc. installed at delivery, but older ones aren't retrofitted due to cost.
Then, of course, there's the "lost film" issue. Ideally, you'd have realtime streamed delivery to a secure storage location that the PD doesn't have access to (state attorney's office or some such) - but that's a pretty expensive and technologically challenging proposition.
I dunno. The ACLU has an app you can use to upload video from your cell phone to the web as it's being shot. They introduced it during the Occupy campaigns of a couple years back. So it's doable and can't be horribly difficult. So that excuse is gone.
[ 02. May 2015, 02:57: Message edited by: mousethief ]
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
Baltimore police to face criminal charges
Initial view of autopsy report. The medical officer is said to have determined that Freddy Gray's death was a homicide. And this has contributed to the finding of probable cause.
No details yet, but it looks as though the self-harm theory does not stack up with the forensics.
This was not a surprise to me. But, quoting President Obama, "What I think the people of Baltimore want more than anything else is the truth." And a proper, considered, establishment of that truth.
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
That two pen'orth is very valuable indeed Porridge. And Crœsos, yep, that's EXACTLY what happened until proven otherwise. Murder by ride.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Porridge
Shipmate
# 15405
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
So what would have happened if you'd failed them?
In actuality, I dropped (from two successive semesters) six of them, failed five more, and only one passed the course.
The failed students just took the course again.
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Spiggott: Everything I've ever told you is a lie, including that.
Moon: Including what?
Spiggott: That everything I've ever told you is a lie.
Moon: That's not true!
Posts: 3925 | From: Upper right corner | Registered: Jan 2010
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
Geez. I suppose the necessity of having to retake may have taught them something in itself, but I'm not holding my breath.
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Forward the New Republic
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by jbohn:
I'd guess in some cases it's simply economics - newer vehicles may (or may not) have cameras, etc. installed at delivery, but older ones aren't retrofitted due to cost.
Then, of course, there's the "lost film" issue. Ideally, you'd have realtime streamed delivery to a secure storage location that the PD doesn't have access to (state attorney's office or some such) - but that's a pretty expensive and technologically challenging proposition.
I dunno. The ACLU has an app you can use to upload video from your cell phone to the web as it's being shot. They introduced it during the Occupy campaigns of a couple years back. So it's doable and can't be horribly difficult. So that excuse is gone.
The ACLU's solution is much simpler than a police implementation would be. That said, it still is not unreasonable from a technical standpoint.
But that is not the reason it hasn't occured. The reason such abuses take place is that the police feel justified in doing it. And a significant number of the public agree or accept.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
The ACLU's solution is much simpler than a police implementation would be. That said, it still is not unreasonable from a technical standpoint.
But that is not the reason it hasn't occured. The reason such abuses take place is that the police feel justified in doing it. And a significant number of the public agree or accept.
Which feeds back to the discussion earlier in the thread about non-violent movements. MLK Jrs use of non-violence was as much a tactic as an ethic, it worked because the white majority still could be shamed about the treatment that the protesters were greeted with.
It seems that to a large extent that this is no longer the case - see the video of the guy who was shot by the deputy who mixed up his taser and his gun, at one point as the victim realising he was shot says 'I'm shot, help I can't breathe', to which the policeman with his knee on the victim's head said 'Fuck your breath'. It seems to me that non-violence only works up to the point where the majority of people would find that behaviour outrageous.
Posts: 4035 | From: Berkshire | Registered: May 2007
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saysay
Ship's Praying Mantis
# 6645
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
But that is not the reason it hasn't occured. The reason such abuses take place is that the police feel justified in doing it. And a significant number of the public agree or accept.
I'm not sure it's about the public agreeing or accepting that police abuse is justified - I think it's more about the police painting such behavior as isolated incidents rather than revelations of systemic failures, and most people buying into it.
Even the mainstream media got frustrated last night at getting herded into staging areas and not being able to document how the police were handling protestors who were breaking curfew.
Martial law is fun. No, really.
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"It's been a long day without you, my friend
I'll tell you all about it when I see you again"
"'Oh sweet baby purple Jesus' - that's a direct quote from a 9 year old - shoutout to purple Jesus."
Posts: 2943 | From: The Wire | Registered: May 2004
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chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by saysay:
Even the mainstream media got frustrated last night at getting herded into staging areas and not being able to document how the police were handling protestors who were breaking curfew.
Martial law is fun. No, really.
It's partly also the assumption that if there are abuses they aren't really abuses because the people being targeted are 'wrongs 'uns'. It becomes more of a live issue when nice middle class people find themselves on the wrong side of this.
Posts: 4035 | From: Berkshire | Registered: May 2007
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saysay
Ship's Praying Mantis
# 6645
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Posted
Yeah, I'm not sure people living in the suburbs understand how often people in some neighborhoods have some kind of contact with the police. Even if it's just (as with Freddie Gray) seeing them and making eye contact.
In a system where it's almost impossible to get rid of the bad cops, that means sooner or later most poor people are going to have an encounter with a bad cop.
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"It's been a long day without you, my friend
I'll tell you all about it when I see you again"
"'Oh sweet baby purple Jesus' - that's a direct quote from a 9 year old - shoutout to purple Jesus."
Posts: 2943 | From: The Wire | Registered: May 2004
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FCB
Hillbilly Thomist
# 1495
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Posted
In the past week I've read a lot of things about Baltimore from people who don't know s**t about Baltimore, but simply want to use recent events to prove their pet theory about this or that, from looting as a revolutionary act to how somehow the Democratic Party is responsible for the death of Freddie Gray (lesson learned: when your city is in the news, avoid the internet).
So it was a blessed relief to read something by someone who does know s**t about Baltimore: David Simon on what went wrong with policing in Baltimore. It helps to explain, among other things, why the charges of false imprisonment brought against two of the officers are probably more significant than the murder charge.
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Agent of the Inquisition since 1982.
Posts: 2928 | From: that city in "The Wire" | Registered: Oct 2001
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
Thought I hadn't seen you around Purg for a while, FCB. Thanks for dropping in and posting such an informative link.
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
I'd read part of that interview somewhere. Either that source did not include the entirety or I failed to read it. But the part regarding ingnoring, reducing the nature of, crimes is infuriating.
Rape is a difficult thing to report as it is, but to have it ignored even more, just to boost statistics, is infuriating. As is having attempts to report any crime dismissed so.
It is also chilling. To think that such tactics are confined to Baltimore is naive.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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