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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Purgatory: Ferguson and its implications
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
FCB--
Thanks for that link! Very informative *and* well-written.
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641
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Posted
I have read that interview - as well as similar. One of the uncommented upon ironies of all this is that of the media gurus who claim to be mystified about why the riots even happened - even as they praised series like the 'Wire' for their 'gritty realism'.
Posts: 4035 | From: Berkshire | Registered: May 2007
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Crœsos
Shipmate
# 238
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Posted
The Atlantic has an interesting article asking the question of why, if Ferguson, MO is home to the headquarters of a Fortune 500 company, does the city rely on predatory policing practices to raise revenue instead of property taxes. It's a fairly good look at some of the policy decisions that led to the current situation.
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Humani nil a me alienum puto
Posts: 10706 | From: Sardis, Lydia | Registered: May 2001
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
Also, strikes me "the code" was a problem even before it was abandoned.
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
DT--
Yes. OTOH, it did informally impose *some* limits.
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
A little out of "left field" but one question which has occurred to me from recent entries is whether U.S. Police have performance related pay and if so what sorts of targets are set. IME performance targets often have the impact of distorting behaviour away from good principles towards the achievement of required statistics. Is this any kind of factor here?
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
A little out of "left field" but one question which has occurred to me from recent entries is whether U.S. Police have performance related pay and if so what sorts of targets are set. IME performance targets often have the impact of distorting behaviour away from good principles towards the achievement of required statistics. Is this any kind of factor here?
One of the article linked mentioned that the number of arrests was linked to promotion. It was cited as a factor in the resulting poor policing.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
Ah, the good old world of badly chosen KPIs (key performance indicators).
Seriously, the world is rife with indicators that have been chosen on the basis that they are easy to count when there is pressure to find something to measure. It's just that most badly chosen KPIs don't have quite so much impact on the lives of others.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Crœsos
Shipmate
# 238
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
A little out of "left field" but one question which has occurred to me from recent entries is whether U.S. Police have performance related pay and if so what sorts of targets are set. IME performance targets often have the impact of distorting behaviour away from good principles towards the achievement of required statistics. Is this any kind of factor here?
One of the article linked mentioned that the number of arrests was linked to promotion. It was cited as a factor in the resulting poor policing.
That was from the David Simon interview.
quote:
How do you reward cops? Two ways: promotion and cash. That's what rewards a cop. If you want to pay overtime pay for having police fill the jails with loitering arrests or simple drug possession or failure to yield, if you want to spend your municipal treasure rewarding that, well the cop who’s going to court 7 or 8 days a month — and court is always overtime pay — you're going to damn near double your salary every month. On the other hand, the guy who actually goes to his post and investigates who's burglarizing the homes, at the end of the month maybe he’s made one arrest. It may be the right arrest and one that makes his post safer, but he's going to court one day and he's out in two hours. So you fail to reward the cop who actually does police work. But worse, it’s time to make new sergeants or lieutenants, and so you look at the computer and say: Who's doing the most work? And they say, man, this guy had 80 arrests last month, and this other guy’s only got one. Who do you think gets made sergeant? And then who trains the next generation of cops in how not to do police work? I’ve just described for you the culture of the Baltimore police department amid the deluge of the drug war, where actual investigation goes unrewarded and where rounding up bodies for street dealing, drug possession, loitering such – the easiest and most self-evident arrests a cop can make – is nonetheless the path to enlightenment and promotion and some additional pay. That’s what the drug war built, and that’s what Martin O’Malley affirmed when he sent so much of inner city Baltimore into the police wagons on a regular basis.
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Humani nil a me alienum puto
Posts: 10706 | From: Sardis, Lydia | Registered: May 2001
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
God, that interview is depressing. And yet so thoroughly plausible.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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saysay
Ship's Praying Mantis
# 6645
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
A little out of "left field" but one question which has occurred to me from recent entries is whether U.S. Police have performance related pay and if so what sorts of targets are set. IME performance targets often have the impact of distorting behaviour away from good principles towards the achievement of required statistics. Is this any kind of factor here?
In addition to the David Simon quote, there's the reality that in a lot of places officers accused of using excessive force are often suspended with pay pending an investigation, which nearly always clears them of wrongdoing.
A paid vacation for abusing a member of the public is a really perverse incentive.
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"It's been a long day without you, my friend
I'll tell you all about it when I see you again"
"'Oh sweet baby purple Jesus' - that's a direct quote from a 9 year old - shoutout to purple Jesus."
Posts: 2943 | From: The Wire | Registered: May 2004
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FCB
Hillbilly Thomist
# 1495
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
God, that interview is depressing. And yet so thoroughly plausible.
Simon has been criticized for making the situation depicted in The Wire so bleak and hopeless that it drains off all energy for effective political action in Baltimor. I don't really buy that criticism, both in the sense that I think the portrayal of the situation is pretty realistic, and in the sense that there are some signs of hope in The Wire, albeit not political ones.
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Agent of the Inquisition since 1982.
Posts: 2928 | From: that city in "The Wire" | Registered: Oct 2001
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
Real solutions are long term. People have no understanding of what that means.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
I think politicians do. If you are "morally malleable" (another Sir Humphrey quote) then you quite see the sense of this, which I've just quoted in the UK Election thread.
quote:
Sir Humphrey: If you want to be really sure that the Minister doesn't accept it, you must say the decision is "courageous".
Bernard: And that's worse than "controversial"?
Sir Humphrey: Oh, yes! "Controversial" only means "this will lose you votes". "Courageous" means "this will lose you the election"!
From memory, I think the dialogue continues that "courageous and far-sighted will not only lose you the next election, but the one after that as well".
It's an issue with democracies that "crisis management" is much easier to justify politically than prevention of future crisis by means of a present cost. Mind you, in US terms, police credibility strikes me as an immediate crisis requiring action now. But that's where the chronic polarisation of US political life comes in.
And that strikes me as another crisis. One which seems very likely to continue, even ratchet up, if Hilary gets the presidency. But I stray too far from the thread theme!
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
That David Simon interview is utterly superb.
If I may, and I know I have the penchant for throwing one line hand grenades to derail threads and this is spill-over from the Kill the Christians thread where I'm accusing Andrew, Justin and George of being warmongers, but I'm genuinely vexed by the issue, the greater thread, of Christians and violence and do see this as an appropriate thread, starting from the other 'end' of the greater.
And yeah thread implies dichotomy - as in my Christian warmonger accusation end on the Kill etc thread - and this is already feeling like a two-dimensional, and soon three, multi-dimensional, issue.
A very fluid, spinning, tumbling orbit object indeed.
Where to begin? 1663 comments in. The Wiki article is an excellent summation from this punter's POV. The truth will be an approximation to the distribution of testimonies there. So, I'm me - and Darren Dean Wilson at high noon, August 9, 2014, on Canfield Drive, Ferguson, Missouri. What would I have done differently? Nothing I suspect. Even taking in to account Johnson's testimony.
I'm me, with what I believed then - neo-liberal, postmodern, pacifist a la MLK, Ghandi, my Jesus - Christian - AND I'm a 28 year old American peace officer.
Is that possible? It might not be coherent, but what is. Is it possible? Is it valid? Can it be made coherent. Feels so to me.
Freddie Forsythe explores the dilemma very well in his character The Jesuit in The Avenger. A guy comes at me with a knife (closest I've been: stopping an attempted suicide attacking himself with a broken bottle), I look around for a defensive weapon (the curtains ...), prepared to run off screaming my lungs out. Unless there are other potential victims present. There's a chair. On the street? A dustbin. Dustbin lids have gone! They WERE handy. So inside there's a good chance of a chair. I can defend myself from a knifeman.
Stand-off. There are other potential victims. He won't go. The situation feels like it's spiralling out of control. My wife, daughter are behind me. OK. In front of me. Between us. What's GOING to happen?
Anything unchristian? Anything un-humanitarian? Inhumane? Immoral? Un-Christ-like? On my side? Anything Jesus wouldn't do?
In the mean time another me turns up as a UK cop, part of an armed response unit. In being trained for that beyond normal police combat - violence - is that even more unchristian than the unarmed combat training (if pepper spray, Taser, telescopic cosh are not arms?).
I feel not. Not at all.
(And the curtains worked just fine. Well I had to completely overpower him with brute force first and he wasn't a wimp and he went for me with the broken bottle ... afterwards I tied him up with the curtains. And yes I'd do it all again. We were 20.)
BUT should my pacifist stance be reeled in at the far end?
Northern Ireland. Could I have been me and a squaddie? A para? As a matter of HIGH civic duty? Somebody HAS to do something. As a squaddie, a para I become a Christian. Then what? As a Christian ... I become a para? A surgical, no survivors ambushing, counter-terror SAS trooper? Was the great C.H. Spurgeon, four pages down, wrong? VILE TRIGGER: DO NOT GO BEYOND THE QUOTES. Epitomized elsewhere by "…The Lord Jesus Christ is our peace in a second sense, namely, in making peace between nations. That there are wars in the world at the present time is not the consequence of anything that Christ has said, but of the lusts of our flesh. As I understand the Word of God, I always rejoice to find a soldier a Christian, but I always mourn to find a Christian a soldier , for it seems to me that when I take up Christ Jesus, I hear one of His Laws, “I say unto you, resist not evil. Put up your sword into its sheath; he that takes the sword shall perish by the sword.” The followers of Christ in these days seem to me to have forgotten a great part of Christianity."
D.L. Moody — There has never been a time in my life when I felt that I could take a gun and shoot down a fellow being. In this respect I am a Quaker. - my response, lucky you Dwight. You need to get out more. There have been MANY times in my life and ... still are.
I went to the Imperial War Museum at Easter. I have NOT got over seeing the VILE TRIGGER
Lviv pogroms images. With which I was familiar, I had skimmed over in print historically. But they are writ LARGE at the museum. I read on the Armenian Genocide this week. Following links as one does. I'm in tears shaking my head now with THE ... image. I'm disturbed by my ... psychology. My compulsions, my dread ... morbid ... worse ... intrusive fascination. And another non-vile image with its simple, vile caption. And NO I don't go back to the images. I don't need to. I NEVER seek out Twin Towers coverage. I can't STAND to see Hitler's face. ... seeing as you asked ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
My head's spinning over all this. I have the momentum above on putting myself in Brown's shoes and around that. WWI - BRITAIN - CAUSED the Armenian Genocide. What would have stopped it? No war. But war is INEVITABLE. So what would have stopped it? Superior firepower. With superior collateral damage.
Which brings me to IS. To going to a tough neighbourhood to 'help' and standing behind a 'chair' up against a 'knife wielding maniac'. And inevitably causing the vilest trigger image above?
And getting to the realisation that NOTHING has changed since Jesus's day. Since being a follower of Jesus then. Since being Jesus.
The world, life is unspeakable vile. It's still Hobbesian: nasty, brutish and short. Who needs Satan eh?
So what are we to do?
Rhetorical of course AND I'd value ANY response, especially from Eutychus who lives in the real world.
I feel that MORE and more, as I have always felt, compassion FOR good soldiers, even in total war and armed police FORCE and that I have NOTHING to say AGAINST them per se.
How far should I go in backing them? Invoking them? Joining them?
In Christ?
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
It's an issue with democracies that "crisis management" is much easier to justify politically than prevention of future crisis by means of a present cost.
This is true to such an extent that politicians help manufacture a perception of a 'crisis' so that they can then be seen to solve it.
Including the time-honoured tactic of declaring that an opposing predecessor created a crisis which is now being fixed. Heck, that even comes up in the Simon interview, with adjusting the previous administration's crime rates.
It's appalling, but it works so damn often because neither the general public nor, depressingly, most "journalists" have the time or the smarts to seriously examine the claims being made. Not until after the desired effect has been achieved, anyway.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
Orginally posted by B62:
quote:
It's an issue with democracies that "crisis management" is much easier to justify politically than prevention of future crisis by means of a present cost. Mind you, in US terms, police credibility strikes me as an immediate crisis requiring action now. But that's where the chronic polarisation of US political life comes in.
The US police situation requires immediate and long term action. The immediate is dubious. Individuals will be punished, a few policies will be "changed", but real, systemic change? I'm dubious.
Addressing the imbalance which feeds the current situation? It is more than depressing to think about.
If Clinton wins the presidency, it will be bad. If a Republican wins, it will be worse.
A major reason the riots have happened is the electorate has neither the knowledge or the patience for long term solutions.
And the politicians that do either manipulate or disregard to their advantage. Much as your quote says.
orfeo,
What journalists? it is massively telling that a recent poll showed that Americans trust humorists Jon Stewert and Stephen Colbert more than any of their "real" journalists.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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jbohn
Shipmate
# 8753
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
it is massively telling that a recent poll showed that Americans trust humorists Jon Stewert and Stephen Colbert more than any of their "real" journalists.
Simples - Stewart and Colbert don't make any pretense of telling us the "truth" - we know they're making it up for a laugh. The "real" journalists are making it up much of the time as well (or virtually ALL of the time, if one is a Faux News viewer), but they try to sell it as reality...
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We are punished by our sins, not for them.
--Elbert Hubbard
Posts: 989 | From: East of Eden, west of St. Paul | Registered: Nov 2004
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irish_lord99
Shipmate
# 16250
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Posted
Either making it up or they just don't have the will and work ethic to suss the situation out properly.
I've known a few people who were involved in state-wide or even national incidents where the media simply came in, did a piss poor job of ascertaining the situation, and reported as 'fact' a incorrect telling of the story.
In fact, I can't remember anytime where I knew what actually happened in a situation, when the media got it right.
Now the other problem is that so many media outlets don't do much independent investigative reporting any more, instead they re-report what other news sources are reporting.
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"There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics." - Mark Twain
Posts: 1169 | From: Maine, US | Registered: Feb 2011
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Moo
Ship's tough old bird
# 107
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Posted
I had a front-row seat for watching the press coverage of the Virginia Tech shootings.
Many reporters arrived with their stories already written; then they tried to get people to make statements that illustrated these stories. The two most common stories were that everyone was clamoring for gun control, and that everyone was clamoring for the resignation of Charles Steger, the university president. In fact, even the most ardent supporters of gun control were too numb to talk about it at that time. I never heard anyone local say they wanted Steger to resign; he was a pillar of strength in a very bad time.
In addition to the pre-written stories, the reporters made themselves detested by treating everyone as if they were the cast of a production that the reporters were directing.
It's been eight years and I'm still angry.
Moo
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Kerygmania host
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See you later, alligator.
Posts: 20365 | From: Alleghany Mountains of Virginia | Registered: May 2001
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Jane R
Shipmate
# 331
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Posted
That's more or less what happened when the national press descended on the sleepy Cumbrian town of Whitehaven in the aftermath of Derek Bird's shooting spree. Ghouls. Most of the locals (including my family) avoided them like the plague.
I thought of this thread when I saw this bizarre tale of police brutality on Tyneside. I had to check the date to be sure it wasn't posted on April Fool's Day... you couldn't make it up.
Posts: 3958 | From: Jorvik | Registered: May 2001
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jane R:
I thought of this thread when I saw this bizarre tale of police brutality on Tyneside. I had to check the date to be sure it wasn't posted on April Fool's Day... you couldn't make it up.
We have form for that...
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Forward the New Republic
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
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saysay
Ship's Praying Mantis
# 6645
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
quote:
Originally posted by Jane R:
I thought of this thread when I saw this bizarre tale of police brutality on Tyneside. I had to check the date to be sure it wasn't posted on April Fool's Day... you couldn't make it up.
We have form for that...
Wait a minute, you guys have police who have to face a gross misconduct hearing if they beat an animal to death?
No fair.
Most of our police don't face any kind of hearing or discipline when they beat a human to death.
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"It's been a long day without you, my friend
I'll tell you all about it when I see you again"
"'Oh sweet baby purple Jesus' - that's a direct quote from a 9 year old - shoutout to purple Jesus."
Posts: 2943 | From: The Wire | Registered: May 2004
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
Of course, what was more ironic was this was the Armed Response Unit, and they didn't want to shoot the injured animal because of all the paperwork they'd have to fill in to account for the discharge of a firearm.
Seriously. You couldn't make it up.
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Forward the New Republic
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
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romanlion
editorial comment
# 10325
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by saysay:
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
quote:
Originally posted by Jane R:
I thought of this thread when I saw this bizarre tale of police brutality on Tyneside. I had to check the date to be sure it wasn't posted on April Fool's Day... you couldn't make it up.
We have form for that...
Wait a minute, you guys have police who have to face a gross misconduct hearing if they beat an animal to death?
No fair.
Most of our police don't face any kind of hearing or discipline when they beat a human to death.
Ahh but Mosby's got that situation all sorted out now.
How is Baltimore these days, now that the racist police department has been put in its place?
As pleasant as when I lived there I hope...
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"You can't get rich in politics unless you're a crook" - Harry S. Truman
Posts: 1486 | From: White Rose City | Registered: Sep 2005
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saysay
Ship's Praying Mantis
# 6645
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by romanlion:
Ahh but Mosby's got that situation all sorted out now.
What is this, some Magic Negro shit? Seriously???
quote:
How is Baltimore these days, now that the racist police department has been put in its place?
WTF? How can anyone interpret anything that has happened as the "racist police department" being "put in its place"?
You make no sense.
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"It's been a long day without you, my friend
I'll tell you all about it when I see you again"
"'Oh sweet baby purple Jesus' - that's a direct quote from a 9 year old - shoutout to purple Jesus."
Posts: 2943 | From: The Wire | Registered: May 2004
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
I don't think I had previously heard about this case. I find it seriously worrying, though, that police can't tell the difference between a gun and a car backfire when they're right there, on the spot, all looking at the vehicle.
Not murder if that's what happened, but a high level of stupidity involved from a considerable number of police.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
There doesn't seem to be a point in these cases where stupidity is assessed as criminal negligence.
It reminds me of the Pistorius case, in which the fact that someone ostensibly somehow in the heat of the moment could not appreciate that firing repeatedly into a confined space containg a person might result in killing the person, was taken as reason enough to negate mens rea for murder.
Nor does it seem a reasonable reaction to have stopped a vehicle you think contains shooters, to stand on the bonnet of the car and shoot into it.
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
Yes, it reminded me of Pistorius as well. I nearly mentioned him in my post.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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