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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Purgatory: UK Election 2015
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balaam
Making an ass of myself
# 4543
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Posted
Give Teflon Dave his due, while he is not a good debater, and expect him to do as badly tonight as he did in the Paxo interview, he knows how to arrange things. He refused a 4 way debate because he knows that UKIP will take a larger bite out of the Tory vote than out of Labour, but the presence of the Greens and Celtic National parties will take votes from Labour. Giving them three times the air time than UKIP is a masterstroke. That is Dave at his best.
I can't see an effective Liberal balance of power thing this time. Too many Liberal supporters are disaffected and may desert to Labour or Green this time (I'm one of them) or not turn up. I expect the number of Liberal seats to be greatly reduced this time round, and I can't see them recovering for 15 years at least. Fewer seats means they will be less effective than in the present term, and I wouldn't call what they have done in the last 5 years as being in any way effective.
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Posts: 9049 | From: Hen Ogledd | Registered: May 2003
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
If you go back to the pre-LibDem days of the 1970's the Liberal Party was even broader. On the right were small businessmen who felt that the Conservatives were dominated by corporate interests and The City and wouldn't have anything with trade union dominated Labour neither, while on the left were ex-Young Liberals, like Peter Hain, some of whom were anarcho-syndicalists. There was also a hefty enviromentalist lobby and enthusiasts for single issues like Site Value Rating. All they had in common was facial hair, but it was the seventies.
All that and just nine MPs, half of them for parts of Creamtealand.
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Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
Funny, I have a different impression of Teflon Dave, rather dim, but good at PR. He glides over inconsistencies and downright falsifications with aplomb, it's true, but I suppose then that Liar, thy name is Politician. If I think about it too much, I get scared.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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North East Quine
Curious beastie
# 13049
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Posted
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
quote:
I expect Vince Cable to be a temporary leader then depending on whether they go into partnership he or Danny Alexander will be the de facto leader.
The latest Ashcroft poll shows Danny Alexander trailing behind the SNP candidate.
Drew Hendry, the SNP candidate, is currently leader of Highland Council and a credible candidate.
Posts: 6414 | From: North East Scotland | Registered: Oct 2007
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
Some of these swings in Scotland are incredible; is that 25%? It's gonna be a fun night up there, as the results come in.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
Some of these swings in Scotland are incredible; is that 25%? It's gonna be a fun night up there, as the results come in.
Fun for some. There's going to be some job hunting afterwards and I almost feel sorry for Danny Boy who suffers the Curse of Osborne, having been the bearer of all the economic bad news for nearly five years.
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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North East Quine
Curious beastie
# 13049
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
Some of these swings in Scotland are incredible; is that 25%? It's gonna be a fun night up there, as the results come in.
Yes, 25%. Personally, I'd be surprised if it was 25% on the day, but even a smaller swing would unseat Danny Alexander.
In this constituency it's not just the SNP "bounce" - Drew Hendry is a known name in local politics as a councillor and currently leader of Highland Council.
Posts: 6414 | From: North East Scotland | Registered: Oct 2007
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
Merkel said recently that in a coalition, the smaller party usually ends up smashed; I suppose it's a kind of whipping boy syndrome.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
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Amika
Shipmate
# 15785
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by luvanddaisies:
Actually, I'm surprised, I would have thought of LibDem as mostly more left than Labour are now after the great Tony bLiar New Labour. Sure, there are probably some leftists left there, but the Party and its whip doesn't strike me as a voice for socialism.
I guess LibDem might have been analysed as more right than they were last election after this term of coalition.
Ed Miliband is (IMO, of course) far to the left of most of the current Lib Dems. They have enabled the most foul government of my lifetime, even worse than Thatcher's, and I can't believe I ever voted tactically for them. I will never vote for them again. I hope Labour isn't forced into any alliance with them; I believe they would force Labour further to the right.
Miliband has distanced himself from the Blair years, if not completely (as I wish he would) from all its adherents. My sticking points with Labour are many, Rachel Reeves for one, but I still think they are our best hope in these awful times.
Posts: 147 | From: Ingerland | Registered: Aug 2010
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Callan
Shipmate
# 525
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
Funny, I have a different impression of Teflon Dave, rather dim, but good at PR. He glides over inconsistencies and downright falsifications with aplomb, it's true, but I suppose then that Liar, thy name is Politician. If I think about it too much, I get scared.
Dave isn't stupid but he has no idea what he wants power for and no settled political beliefs beyond a vague conception that the luckiest boys should have the jolliest time, tempered by an even vaguer sense of noblesse oblige.He gets away with it, partly because people assume that if you are PM you must be up to the job and partly because he gets good PR from the Beeb and the Press.
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How easy it would be to live in England, if only one did not love her. - G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 9757 | From: Citizen of the World | Registered: Jun 2001
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Amika:
quote:
Originally posted by luvanddaisies:
Actually, I'm surprised, I would have thought of LibDem as mostly more left than Labour are now after the great Tony bLiar New Labour. Sure, there are probably some leftists left there, but the Party and its whip doesn't strike me as a voice for socialism.
I guess LibDem might have been analysed as more right than they were last election after this term of coalition.
Ed Miliband is (IMO, of course) far to the left of most of the current Lib Dems. They have enabled the most foul government of my lifetime, even worse than Thatcher's, and I can't believe I ever voted tactically for them. I will never vote for them again. I hope Labour isn't forced into any alliance with them; I believe they would force Labour further to the right.
Miliband has distanced himself from the Blair years, if not completely (as I wish he would) from all its adherents. My sticking points with Labour are many, Rachel Reeves for one, but I still think they are our best hope in these awful times.
Well, Blair had the bright idea that the way to win elections was to copy the Tories; I suppose Labour are realizing that it's also the way to lose them. But it gives them a very blurred appearance, sort of dilute Thatcher, with a little bit of 'one nation' rhetoric, and a nod to UKIP. What a dog's breakfast.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Callan:
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
Funny, I have a different impression of Teflon Dave, rather dim, but good at PR. He glides over inconsistencies and downright falsifications with aplomb, it's true, but I suppose then that Liar, thy name is Politician. If I think about it too much, I get scared.
Dave isn't stupid but he has no idea what he wants power for and no settled political beliefs beyond a vague conception that the luckiest boys should have the jolliest time, tempered by an even vaguer sense of noblesse oblige.He gets away with it, partly because people assume that if you are PM you must be up to the job and partly because he gets good PR from the Beeb and the Press.
Well, he sort of gets away with it, but if the Tories don't win this time, I think the knives will be out. One problem with portraying Miliband as a total dingbat, is if you don't beat him, what does that say about you?
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
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Callan
Shipmate
# 525
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
quote:
Originally posted by Amika:
quote:
Originally posted by luvanddaisies:
Actually, I'm surprised, I would have thought of LibDem as mostly more left than Labour are now after the great Tony bLiar New Labour. Sure, there are probably some leftists left there, but the Party and its whip doesn't strike me as a voice for socialism.
I guess LibDem might have been analysed as more right than they were last election after this term of coalition.
Ed Miliband is (IMO, of course) far to the left of most of the current Lib Dems. They have enabled the most foul government of my lifetime, even worse than Thatcher's, and I can't believe I ever voted tactically for them. I will never vote for them again. I hope Labour isn't forced into any alliance with them; I believe they would force Labour further to the right.
Miliband has distanced himself from the Blair years, if not completely (as I wish he would) from all its adherents. My sticking points with Labour are many, Rachel Reeves for one, but I still think they are our best hope in these awful times.
Well, Blair had the bright idea that the way to win elections was to copy the Tories; I suppose Labour are realizing that it's also the way to lose them. But it gives them a very blurred appearance, sort of dilute Thatcher, with a little bit of 'one nation' rhetoric, and a nod to UKIP. What a dog's breakfast.
I am reminded of a line from Blake's 7. I said it was our best hope. I did not say that it was a good one.
Still, what are the alternatives? Two years arguing about Europe whilst George, Teresa and Boris go on manoeuvres? The Damn Libs? The Greens? Or the assorted nationalist parties (UKIP, the SNP, and Plaid) with their deep resentment of the English/ foreigners and their touching belief that if elected they will give everyone a massive money tree.
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How easy it would be to live in England, if only one did not love her. - G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 9757 | From: Citizen of the World | Registered: Jun 2001
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
Very good line, that.
Well, I live in a safe Tory seat, so my vote is meaningless, except as somebody said, to add another to the popular non-Tory vote. Wow, that's really going to shake the foundations.
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lowlands_boy
Shipmate
# 12497
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Posted
I suppose all sorts of things will be said if the Conservatives lose to Labour - not least, the Conservatives will say that Labour couldn't win a majority (assuming all the predictions are right), completely ignoring the fact that they haven't had one either for this government.
But if the loss is perceived to be because of vote splitting by UKIP, perhaps the European issue will become very hot for the Conservative Party again. Given the recent rise of UKIP, we've heard surprisingly little from the various Conservative party factions on Europe. Thinking back to the Major government in the 90s, they were obsessed with it.
It didn't really matter to Blair once Labour won, as they had a massive majority. I suspect that the Conservatives of all European flavours have just kept fairly quiet during the coalition government as they've thought that the grip on power was fairly slender, and perhaps also that they could rely on Clegg and the Lib Dems to be in favour of Europe and get the blame for any Euro related issues.
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Posts: 836 | From: North West UK | Registered: Apr 2007
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
I should think that Tory MPs are lying low, waiting to see the result. If Labour are the biggest party, the shit may hit the Tory fan; another Tory coalition, well, bring in Boris; outright victory, Dave's a nice chap.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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balaam
Making an ass of myself
# 4543
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Posted
Debate 2: The women won.
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Posts: 9049 | From: Hen Ogledd | Registered: May 2003
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luvanddaisies
the'fun'in'fundie'™
# 5761
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Callan:
...the assorted nationalist parties (UKIP, the SNP, and Plaid)...
Sorry, y'what now? How can you lump SNP and Plaid in with UKIP as though they are of a type? UKIP are right-wing authoritarians, while the others are among the grew true leftist voices we have left.
If you're going to make a collection with SNP & Plaid, it would be more likely to be the Green Party that would make sense to link them with. That would be a trilogy of left wing parties. It would also make more sense given that the Scottish Greens were on the Yes side in the referendum.
I'd be pleased if by some serendipitous happenstance a glitch in the fabric of likleyhood gave us a coalition incorporating the Greens (all the UK Green Parties), the SNP, Plaid, and Left Unity. That would feel like progress could be about to be made. I know, I know. The pig aerial display team would be working overtime and I should put my idealism away and go to bed. Still, it might be nice.
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"Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things you didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines, sail away from the safe harbour. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover." (Mark Twain)
Posts: 3711 | From: all at sea. | Registered: Apr 2004
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by luvanddaisies:
quote:
Originally posted by Callan:
...the assorted nationalist parties (UKIP, the SNP, and Plaid)...
Sorry, y'what now? How can you lump SNP and Plaid in with UKIP as though they are of a type?
I was about to make much the same point. I'm not as familiar with PC, but the SNP and UKIP are about as far apart politically as you can get without including the real extremist fringe groups. The SNP favour open immigration, European Union membership, state funded healthcare and education, a decent welfare system for those who need it. On Europe and immigration UKIP clearly and emphatically stand on a different platform. I've not seen a detailed policy statement on health care (though I did see Farage make some comment about it being better to go private if you can afford it), education or welfare.
At present there isn't an English equivalent of the SNP or PC. English Nationalism is the realm of fascist thugs, and any SNP/PC equivalent party to be established in England will need to be careful to avoid that association or they'll never get anywhere. It's difficult to know what an English party would stand for, though they could stand against the influence of Scottish/Welsh/NI MPs on matters that are devolved to those nations, but that doesn't seem enough of a platform to form a party on.
I could see a greater opportunity for regional parties, standing to promote and protect the distinctive cultures and interests of (say) the SW of England, or Tyneside.
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
At present there isn't an English equivalent of the SNP or PC. English Nationalism is the realm of fascist thugs, and any SNP/PC equivalent party to be established in England will need to be careful to avoid that association or they'll never get anywhere. It's difficult to know what an English party would stand for, though they could stand against the influence of Scottish/Welsh/NI MPs on matters that are devolved to those nations, but that doesn't seem enough of a platform to form a party on.
I could see a greater opportunity for regional parties, standing to promote and protect the distinctive cultures and interests of (say) the SW of England, or Tyneside.
As one who was involved in the Liberal Party back in the pre LibDem days, the left of that party wasn't so far from Plaid Cymru in Wales, making seats like Ynys Mon (Anglesey) four-way marginals at times! In some seats it was moot whether it was worth standing, but that always depended on the Liberal and PC candidates. It got very close when the Liberal was a first-language Welsh speaker! I'm not so knowledgeable about Scotland.
It has always had regional strengths too, such as Creamtealand and, to a lesser extent, Lancashire.
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
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Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
My point isn't about national parties having regional strongholds (I think all parties do, it's just that with a small number of seats a block of orange is more obvious than a block of blue or red). It's that there isn't a regional party (at least not with the level of support that would result in not losing their deposits, yes I know Google will come up with a range of parties).
There's no Creamtealand Party standing on a platform of upholding the interests of Creamtealanders from the dominance of the rest of England. Assuming more than two blokes in a shed consider that Creamtealand is dominated by the rest of England and the concerns of Creamtealanders are overlooked in national politics.
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Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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betjemaniac
Shipmate
# 17618
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
There's no Creamtealand Party standing on a platform of upholding the interests of Creamtealanders from the dominance of the rest of England. Assuming more than two blokes in a shed consider that Creamtealand is dominated by the rest of England and the concerns of Creamtealanders are overlooked in national politics.
Part of it does of course have Mebyon Kernow
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And is it true? For if it is....
Posts: 1481 | From: behind the dreaming spires | Registered: Mar 2013
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
I had to Google that.
Now, they might stand a chance of not losing their deposits. 4 county councillors, plus a host of representatives on town & parish councils. Plus a nice, clean and attractive website. If I was living there I would even look at their policies seriously.
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Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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balaam
Making an ass of myself
# 4543
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
It's difficult to know what an English party would stand for, though they could stand against the influence of Scottish/Welsh/NI MPs on matters that are devolved to those nations, but that doesn't seem enough of a platform to form a party on.
That's the opposite of what the Celtic Nationals are saying, they do not like the Westminster centralised government. Taking them out of the equation on things like tax in an English votes for English people is a right wing idea which was mentioned by Teflon Dave after the Scottish referendum.
There is a feeling against this Westminster centered government in the regions too. What we want is a reduced Westminster influence, not more.
quote:
I could see a greater opportunity for regional parties, standing to promote and protect the distinctive cultures and interests of (say) the SW of England, or Tyneside.
Not this either, it would mean civil war for Yorkshire and the Humber, a vast rural county which is firmly blue on the political map, but with industrialised areas which support Labour. Which Yorkshire would dominate in this would upset the others. Leeds may be close to Harrogate, but they are vastly different places.
More power to the county councils would help. But they were abolished under Thatcher.
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Posts: 9049 | From: Hen Ogledd | Registered: May 2003
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by balaam:
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
It's difficult to know what an English party would stand for, though they could stand against the influence of Scottish/Welsh/NI MPs on matters that are devolved to those nations, but that doesn't seem enough of a platform to form a party on.
That's the opposite of what the Celtic Nationals are saying, they do not like the Westminster centralised government.
Yes, and maybe an English 'nationalist' (in the good sense of the word, rather than that thugs) party would also not like centralised Westminster government. Nothing wrong with a Westminster government that only covers issues that involve the whole UK, with national governments with control over the issues that only involve them.
The SNP (and probably PC, though as I've said I'm not as familiar with their positions) have always held the principal that their MPs would abstain from matters that did not concern Scotland. Though there's (currently) no requirement for them to do so - I don't expect any objection to a change of Parliamentary rules that actually rule them out of voting on such issues. Scottish Labour don't have a reputation of staying out of non-Scottish matters (voting for tuition fees south of the border being the most commonly paraded example), and it's possible that that is part of their collapse because the people of Scotland recognise the injustice in that as much as anyone else.
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Sarasa
Shipmate
# 12271
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Posted
I only caught the last fifteen minutes or so of the debate, but I'm finding the diverse views of the newspapers this morning interesting. The papers seem to be split down their traditional party lines, so the Telegraph thought Camercon did well, while the Guardian thought Milliband did better than expected. This seems to suggest that no one was an outright winner. I wonder how much difference it will make to how people vote?
Having said that I'd be voting PC or SNP if I could. As it is I hvae a dilemma. I live in a Lib Dem constituancy. Labour have no chance here, but a vote for them (or the Greens) will probably mean the Conservatives get in. The sitting MP keeps on sending me letters, he's obviously rather worried.
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Posts: 2035 | From: London | Registered: Jan 2007
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Jack the Lass
Ship's airhead
# 3415
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
The SNP (and probably PC, though as I've said I'm not as familiar with their positions) have always held the principal that their MPs would abstain from matters that did not concern Scotland. Though there's (currently) no requirement for them to do so - I don't expect any objection to a change of Parliamentary rules that actually rule them out of voting on such issues. Scottish Labour don't have a reputation of staying out of non-Scottish matters (voting for tuition fees south of the border being the most commonly paraded example), and it's possible that that is part of their collapse because the people of Scotland recognise the injustice in that as much as anyone else.
Although, Nicola Sturgeon more recently seems to be moving away from that particular line, in instances where there would be financial implications for Scotland (eg if the English NHS budget is reduced then there would be a corresponding reduction in the grant to Scotland): Observer article Feb 2015.
I don't think that Labour's collapse this side of the border is anything to do with a feeling that Scottish Labour MPs should have nothing to do with English matters. I think NEQ further up the thread nailed it - they have been too complacent for too long. As a result they have lost a lot of credibility, as well as losing (at the last Holyrood election) a lot of their bigger hitters, leaving comparatively few experienced or competent representatives. I think it's hard for people not living here to appreciate just how much of a shambles Labour are up here currently, and how little of a credible opposition they are providing. It has meant that the SNP (who not so long ago were being painted as the Tartan Tories) have been able to claim the centre-left and further-left ground with remarkably little resistance. I for one would love to see a credible Labour and other left-wing opposition as I do think that there are elements of SNP policy which need more robust scrutiny than they are getting at the moment (I am saying that as a former Labour and now probable SNP voter). That lack of scrutiny is less to do with the SNP majority in Holyrood and almost everything to do with Scottish Labour in particular being such a shambles, IMO.
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Posts: 5767 | From: the land of the deep-fried Mars Bar | Registered: Oct 2002
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by balaam:
Debate 2: The women won.
I agree with that; I thought Nicola very impressive, and the men were like stuffed shirts, with the exception of Farage, who is quite relaxed, but talks like a troll. I can't stand Clegg.
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Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jack the Lass:
Nicola Sturgeon more recently seems to be moving away from that particular line, in instances where there would be financial implications for Scotland (eg if the English NHS budget is reduced then there would be a corresponding reduction in the grant to Scotland): Observer article Feb 2015.
But, if something passed in Westminster will result in a reduction to the grant to Scotland then, by definition, it isn't an entirely non-Scottish matter. The line between UK and UK-except-Scotland isn't necessarily that clear. Another blurry line is when Scottish Labour MPs start to approach the "panda line" if an understanding between the SNP and Labour return a minority Labour government in Westminster, on the grounds that a Labour government is better for Scotland than a Tory one.
quote:
I don't think that Labour's collapse this side of the border is anything to do with a feeling that Scottish Labour MPs should have nothing to do with English matters. I think NEQ further up the thread nailed it - they have been too complacent for too long. As a result they have lost a lot of credibility ... I think it's hard for people not living here to appreciate just how much of a shambles Labour are up here currently, and how little of a credible opposition they are providing.
The Labour collapse has a lot of factors. I still think one of them is that during the referendum campaign (especially in the last few weeks) the question of Scottish MPs voting on matters with very little Scottish interest was a major discussion point. In the course of that we were reminded of Scottish Labour support for non-Scottish university tuition fees, which most people recognise as being not cricket. This example of towing the line from the London offices was then quickly followed with the "branch office" comments in the resignation of Johann Lamont (who was a popular leader, her loss was another contribution to the general shambles) created an impression that Scottish Labour MPs were more interested in supporting the London Party Line than fighting for Scotland.
It's a shambles almost entirely of their own making. And, you're right that the loss of a credible opposition in Holyrood weakens Scottish democracy. We need someone competent to scrutinise legislation, and strong enough to filter out the crap. The Opposition should be like a referee for a scientific paper (guess who has another paper to review on their desk?) offering a thoughtful and fair criticism of the paper (proposed legislation) and sending it back to the editor (house) with appropriate recommendation (don't publish/major corrections/ minor corrections - I personally consider the 'no corrections' option to be one that a referee should never use because any paper can be better). The aim is to get the best possible legislation, and the perspective of opposition parties is an essential part of that process.
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Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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Adeodatus
Shipmate
# 4992
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sarasa:
I only caught the last fifteen minutes or so of the debate, but I'm finding the diverse views of the newspapers this morning interesting. The papers seem to be split down their traditional party lines, so the Telegraph thought Camercon did well, while the Guardian thought Milliband did better than expected. This seems to suggest that no one was an outright winner....
I'm cynical enough to believe that most of the papers' copy was written before the debate, apart from plug-in bits like "<insert opportunistic quote here>".
Where do we start the campaign to have Nicola Sturgeon as Prime Minister?
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"What is broken, repair with gold."
Posts: 9779 | From: Manchester | Registered: Sep 2003
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
Some of us already do ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif) OK, we use 'first' rather than 'prime'
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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Ramarius
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# 16551
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Posted
For the Scots nats there's a delightful irony emerging. The political destinies of the parties that campaigned for the Union is now in the hands of a nationalist party.
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Posts: 950 | From: Virtually anywhere | Registered: Jul 2011
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Jay-Emm
Shipmate
# 11411
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Adeodatus:
I'm cynical enough to believe that most of the papers' copy was written before the debate, apart from plug-in bits like "<insert opportunistic quote here>".
Where do we start the campaign to have Nicola Sturgeon as Prime Minister?
The guardian live feed, explicitly recognised it.
Posts: 1643 | Registered: May 2006
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jack the Lass:
...Although, Nicola Sturgeon more recently seems to be moving away from that particular line, in instances where there would be financial implications for Scotland (eg if the English NHS budget is reduced then there would be a corresponding reduction in the grant to Scotland): Observer article Feb 2015. ...
That's an interestingly different take from how it appears down here.
It's been generally assumed here that the SNP's giving up its self-denying ordinance on voting on England only matters is so that it can sell its support to the highest bidder in a hung Parliament. The argument about alleged possible effects of the English NHS budget allocations on Scottish finance has generally been assumed to be a flimsy and transparent ex post facto hypocritical rationalisation.
Changing the subject, I thought yesterday's televised debate was quite interesting, but unless you're Welsh or Scottish, there was nothing in it that might persuade you to vote differently from how you might otherwise.
Although even if I were in Wales, I probably wouldn't vote Plaid, I thought Leanne Wood stuck up for her corner rather well. Nicola Sturgeon might be quite persuasive if one were in Scotland, but she has nothing to offer us here and we were completely disenfranchised in the constitutional referendum in the autumn.
As for the statement "it was the women wot won", though, I thought Natalie Bennett was dreadful - dogmatic and only persuasive for those who have already been persuaded. She didn't even strike me as particularly bright.
But as I said, the debate is not likely to change the way many people vote. Before yesterday evening, I was unlikely to have voted Green, and it's even less likely now.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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Ariel
Shipmate
# 58
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Posted
I agree with Enoch's points - that's what I was thinking. Leanne Woods was too focused on Wales to be relevant to anywhere else, Nicola Sturgeon made some good points but again is Scotland-focused, and what's with the erratic head movements? Nick Clegg came out of it surprisingly well - better than I expected. He came across as sincere, passionate and worth listening to. I enjoyed him trying to get Miliband to apologize for personally wrecking the economy.
Farage was his usual amusing self, clearly unscripted and not prepared. Cameron gave an understated performance, but of all of seven, he was the only one who came across as convincing in the part of prime minister. It was impossible to visualize any of the others jetting off to high-level policy discussions with heads of state or trying to sort out what to do about Islamic militants or Putin.
The Labour Party has the wrong Miliband at the top. David would have been a force to be reckoned with and a serious contender for the post of Prime Minister, Ed is lightweight and comes across as potentially out of his depth with the kinds of problems a prime minister has to face on a day to day basis. He doesn't have warmth or charisma, just ambition.
Posts: 25445 | Registered: May 2001
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quetzalcoatl
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# 16740
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Posted
It just shows how subjective it is: I found Cameron and Clegg hideous, Farage grotesque with his talk of HIV, I liked the 3 women, and I thought Miliband looked overtrained. Nothing new really.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Ariel
Shipmate
# 58
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Posted
Also, the Worm was very distracting. And it was taken too seriously: it represents the views of 50 floating voters, it can't be said to be representative of anything else.
Posts: 25445 | Registered: May 2001
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ariel:
... Farage was his usual amusing self, clearly unscripted and not prepared. ...
Exactly. A buffoon and a dangerous one. It might have appealed to those who already like that sort of thing. I suspect that it also confirmed the many of us that detest the man that we still do.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ariel:
.. Cameron gave an understated performance, but of all of seven, he was the only one who came across as convincing in the part of prime minister. It was impossible to visualize any of the others jetting off to high-level policy discussions with heads of state or trying to sort out what to do about Islamic militants or Putin....
I've never understood this perception- very widespread- that Cameron is somehow 'prime ministerial'. To me he's so obviously a bluffer and a waffler and- when under pressure- a blusterer.
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My beard is a testament to my masculinity and virility, and demonstrates that I am a real man. Trouble is, bits of quiche sometimes get caught in it.
Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008
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Truman White
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# 17290
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Posted
@Enoch wrote
Changing the subject, I thought yesterday's televised debate was quite interesting, but unless you're Welsh or Scottish, there was nothing in it that might persuade you to vote differently from how you might otherwise.
You'd have thought so, but I was seeing a report from an English marginal - Lincoln - where one of the punters was thinking of tactically voting Labour as a way of giving the SNP a stronger voice in Westminster. I was talking to someone in my own English marginal who's planning a vote swap with an English mate currently living and eligible to vote in Scotland. He'll ask his Scottish pal to vote SNP, and in return will cast his own vote in England however his mate chooses.
Might start a trend
Posts: 476 | Registered: Aug 2012
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
quote:
Originally posted by Ariel:
.. Cameron gave an understated performance, but of all of seven, he was the only one who came across as convincing in the part of prime minister. It was impossible to visualize any of the others jetting off to high-level policy discussions with heads of state or trying to sort out what to do about Islamic militants or Putin....
I've never understood this perception- very widespread- that Cameron is somehow 'prime ministerial'. To me he's so obviously a bluffer and a waffler and- when under pressure- a blusterer.
Cameron has the advantage of having been briefed in the role for five years. I'm sure the permanent civil servants in his office have spotted his vices and virtues and instructed him to work in a particular way. He'd have to be a total tool to ignore this advice when it comes to the election campaign.
His main problem is to ensure the Conservatives don't disproportionately lose votes to UKIP.
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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luvanddaisies
the'fun'in'fundie'™
# 5761
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Posted
I thought the three leaders of Green, Plaid & SNP showed up the red, blue & yellow stuffed-shirts in the Leaders' Debate - and Nicola Sturgeon in particular outclassed the rest, and I've seen quite a few people from outside Scotland wishing they could vote for her. If I was back up in Scotland, I might well have shifted my likely vote from Green to SNP.
On a lighter note, there's an entertaining but quite true (IMHO) summary of the Debate on Commonspace
Flipping back to serious - Farage, fuckin'ell - he's a despicable xenophobic troll, isn't he? How could anyone watch that and even contemplate voting for his detestable mob of prejudice-farmers?
The Commonspace article I linked to above had a lovely litle sentence about him;
quote:
With his eyes bulging, presumably to get as far away from his mind as possible, Farage came across as exactly what he is. A dangerous bigot appealing to the lowest common denominator.
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"Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things you didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines, sail away from the safe harbour. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover." (Mark Twain)
Posts: 3711 | From: all at sea. | Registered: Apr 2004
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by luvanddaisies:
On a lighter note, there's an entertaining but quite true (IMHO) summary of the Debate on Commonspace
Flipping back to serious - Farage, fuckin'ell - he's a despicable xenophobic troll, isn't he? How could anyone watch that and even contemplate voting for his detestable mob of prejudice-farmers?
The Commonspace article I linked to above had a lovely litle sentence about him;
quote:
With his eyes bulging, presumably to get as far away from his mind as possible, Farage came across as exactly what he is. A dangerous bigot appealing to the lowest common denominator.
Don't underestimate the extent of bigotry and particularly xenophobia in the UK.
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by luvanddaisies:
Flipping back to serious - Farage, fuckin'ell - he's a despicable xenophobic troll, isn't he? How could anyone watch that and even contemplate voting for his detestable mob of prejudice-farmers?
Because there is a group of the permanently pissed off in the UK, who believe the world would be better if only people were told to sit up and behave.
Posts: 4035 | From: Berkshire | Registered: May 2007
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
Tactically, Cameron has probably won the round of TV debates by ensuring they were staged early, and will rapidly slide into "old news" territory. His performance was pretty irrelevant, though I suspect the Paxo Food Bank stuffing may linger for a while in people's memories. I hope so, anyway.
I think Nicola Sturgeon will have increased support for the SNP and I suspect this horse that won't run will cause further harm to Labour in Scotland if they try to ride it.
Farage's unsavoury remarks must have been designed to shore up his core vote. The appearance of unscriptedness is pretty calculated (and rehearsed I guess), but he was probably not expecting to get shot down by a Welsh woman. I enjoyed that.
It will be a hung Parliament, but will it hang to the Left or the Right?
[ 04. April 2015, 08:48: Message edited by: Barnabas62 ]
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
I think that's right. The Tories will have calculated that even if Labour get a bounce from the debates, it will fade. The right-wing machine haven't really got going yet with their personal attacks on Miliband - expect further nastiness in the tabloids. Whether they have calculated correctly, who knows, one can only hope not, for the sake of the poor and disabled.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Ricardus
Shipmate
# 8757
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
quote:
Originally posted by Ariel:
.. Cameron gave an understated performance, but of all of seven, he was the only one who came across as convincing in the part of prime minister. It was impossible to visualize any of the others jetting off to high-level policy discussions with heads of state or trying to sort out what to do about Islamic militants or Putin....
I've never understood this perception- very widespread- that Cameron is somehow 'prime ministerial'. To me he's so obviously a bluffer and a waffler and- when under pressure- a blusterer.
I'm young enough that my only real points of comparison are Tony Blair and Gordon Brown.
To my mind, irrespective of my feelings about Conservative policies as a whole, Cameron does have the advantage over both of them in that, unlike Blair, he doesn't think he's the Messiah, and, unlike Brown, he's not paranoid of anyone in his own party who has ideas and talents of their own. I suspect both are a direct consequence of his lack of convictions.
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Then the dog ran before, and coming as if he had brought the news, shewed his joy by his fawning and wagging his tail. -- Tobit 11:9 (Douai-Rheims)
Posts: 7247 | From: Liverpool, UK | Registered: Nov 2004
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Truman White
Shipmate
# 17290
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
I think that's right. The Tories will have calculated that even if Labour get a bounce from the debates, it will fade. The right-wing machine haven't really got going yet with their personal attacks on Miliband - expect further nastiness in the tabloids. Whether they have calculated correctly, who knows, one can only hope not, for the sake of the poor and disabled.
On t'other hand, the debates helped show that if you give Ed more than five mins talk time he looks less like a dawk, and more credible as a politician. He's got a bit of momentum now, has aired a lot of arguments (so will be getting good intelligence on what's playing well with the voters) and has got people starting to say maybe he ain't an extra from a plasticine movie company after all.
Posts: 476 | Registered: Aug 2012
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L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338
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Posted
posted by quetzalcoatl quote:
The right-wing machine haven't really got going yet with their personal attacks on Miliband - expect further nastiness in the tabloids. Whether they have calculated correctly, who knows, one can only hope not, for the sake of the poor and disabled.
In fact looking at the past ten years, the worst, most despicable, personal attacks and smears have all come from Labour and were, primarily, aimed not at the politician but at the politician's spouse.
Don't believe me? Look at Damian McBride and his antics vis-a-vis Samantha Cameron, Frances Osborne; and if that's not enough, look at his smearing of Charles Clarke and Cherie Blair.
Ed Miliband has never satisfactorily explained what he knew about Mr McBride and his activities: bearing in mind Damian McB was Gordon Brown's closest aide and Miliband was Gordon's protege it isn't credible that Miliband knew nothing.
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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
Posts: 4950 | From: somewhere in England... | Registered: Sep 2012
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
Don't believe me? Look at Damian McBride and his antics vis-a-vis Samantha Cameron, Frances Osborne; and if that's not enough, look at his smearing of Charles Clarke and Cherie Blair.
Ed Miliband has never satisfactorily explained what he knew about Mr McBride and his activities: bearing in mind Damian McB was Gordon Brown's closest aide and Miliband was Gordon's protege it isn't credible that Miliband knew nothing.
One rotten apple doesn't condemn the entire barrel, but Charles Clarke was quite probably the worst Home Secretary in the modern era. Not a nice man at all.
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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