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Source: (consider it) Thread: Purgatory: UK Election 2015
betjemaniac
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quote:
Originally posted by Sipech:
quote:
Originally posted by betjemaniac:
although, from the Putin/Medvedev playbook,

"poor Alex Salmond, forced out of retirement as First Minister of Scotland to serve as the lowly DPM of the UK..."

I'm not sure that would have been the plan. The SNP don't look likely to be as big in 2015 as the Lid Dems were in 2010, so Salmond may end up as secretary of state for Scotland or leader of the House of Commons.

One thing I find an intriguing possibility is, given the state of the Palace of Westminster, whether an SNP-anybody coalition might try to move the seat of government away from London for a fixed period of time. Possibly to Glasgow, Edinburgh, Manchester or Birmingham.

with the best will in the world, that is not going to happen. Well, actually, I'd go as far as saying they could *try,* and it's intriguing, but whatever else it is IMO it's not an intriguing *possibility.*

They can shout and scream all they want but I don't believe such a thing could ever be other than a free vote, and they just wouldn't be able to get a majority - far too many of the 650-whatever inhabitants are very happy living in London; it'd make the BBC move to Salford (which in itself hasn't been a success) look sensible.

OTOH, having assumed any form of grand coalition would be up to five years of the worst sort of pork-barrel politics, it would actually be reassuring if they did intend to waste their time on futile gesture politics.

In the unlikely event that we get an English parliament (which I very much want), then there's a chance we could put it somewhere else. Getting Westminster out of Westminster, however...

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And is it true? For if it is....

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betjemaniac
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I'd put money on the QE Conference Centre over the road to be honest (quite apart from anything else the government still own it - for now) with Westminster Hall, as now, doing the spillover. If they did one House at a time (with the Commons occupying whichever one is open) that'll work.

Incidentally, it isn't just the north that gets ignored by Westminster. I just wonder how happy the "we're ignored in the north" gang would be if the agreement to move out of London was settled on five years in Plymouth, Exeter, or Norwich though...

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And is it true? For if it is....

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chris stiles
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quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:

Willie Whitelaw probably did it best but at best it's an Aunt Sally and no place for an ambitious, vain man.

Does it really matter that Salmond may or may not be either or both?

I must say that I find this line of argumentation rather bemusing. ISTM that in the absence of a reasoned argument against specific policies, particular personal foibles substitute. I've seen more people in my facebook feed critique Blair for his post political money making than his 45 minute claim,

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Sioni Sais
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quote:
Originally posted by chris stiles:
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:

Willie Whitelaw probably did it best but at best it's an Aunt Sally and no place for an ambitious, vain man.

Does it really matter that Salmond may or may not be either or both?


I intended to say that DPM is nowadays a thankless task, a poisoned chalice, with the main but not quite sole objective of deflecting criticism from the leader, often from within his or her own party.

That was why I mentioned Whitelaw. He was DPM for nine years, resigned because of illness and the PM was gone in less than two.

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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"

(Paul Sinha, BBC)

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betjemaniac
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quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
quote:
Originally posted by chris stiles:
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:

Willie Whitelaw probably did it best but at best it's an Aunt Sally and no place for an ambitious, vain man.

Does it really matter that Salmond may or may not be either or both?


I intended to say that DPM is nowadays a thankless task, a poisoned chalice, with the main but not quite sole objective of deflecting criticism from the leader, often from within his or her own party.

That was why I mentioned Whitelaw. He was DPM for nine years, resigned because of illness and the PM was gone in less than two.

He was, although there is a tendency to, unlike Clegg, combine it with another role. Whitelaw was Home Sec,mthen Lord President of the Council. Heseltine was DPM and President of the Board of Trade.

Incidentally, that's one small knock on of the coalition right there. Knowing some Civil Servants in BIS, they were planning for having to change the boss' name back to President of the Board of Trade, "because that's what the Tories call it" but then they got Vince instead.

AIUI, in the event of a Tory majority at some point in the future, we'll get that title back again, because it's a party shibboleth for some reason ( I can only assume conservation).

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And is it true? For if it is....

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Ricardus
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quote:
Originally posted by betjemaniac:
I'd put money on the QE Conference Centre over the road to be honest (quite apart from anything else the government still own it - for now) with Westminster Hall, as now, doing the spillover. If they did one House at a time (with the Commons occupying whichever one is open) that'll work.

Incidentally, it isn't just the north that gets ignored by Westminster. I just wonder how happy the "we're ignored in the north" gang would be if the agreement to move out of London was settled on five years in Plymouth, Exeter, or Norwich though...

Why have Parliament physically located anywhere? Ministers can live in London but everyone else can take part in Parliamentary debates by video-link from their constituency and vote electronically.

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Then the dog ran before, and coming as if he had brought the news, shewed his joy by his fawning and wagging his tail. -- Tobit 11:9 (Douai-Rheims)

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Leorning Cniht
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quote:
Originally posted by Ricardus:
Why have Parliament physically located anywhere? Ministers can live in London but everyone else can take part in Parliamentary debates by video-link from their constituency and vote electronically.

In my experience, small video meetings (with a few locations each with a handful of people) work OK. They're significantly inferior to physical meetings, but not having to travel makes up for that. Large video meetings - with multiple rooms of many tens of people, or dozens of locations, are hopeless. The idea of a 500-location video-link debate being useful is laughable.
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Alan Cresswell

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Though, given the nature of most Commons debates (as seen on the TV) "useful" is a term of dubious merit. Either we have a few dozen MPs sitting around the House listening dutifully - in which case a video conference would work. Or, we have a packed House of people screaming and shouting and generally behaving like school kids (except the Speaker doesn't have the authority to send them to corner, that's if there were 600 corners in Palace of Westminster in the first place), and I don't see anything useful done there anyway.

The real work in Parliament is done in Committees, and they would seem perfectly amenable to remote participation.

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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.

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Leorning Cniht
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quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:

The real work in Parliament is done in Committees, and they would seem perfectly amenable to remote participation.

Maybe. I find that we get much more work done in-person rather than via phone or video. I'm actually surprised by how big the difference is.
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Alan Cresswell

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Yes, I agree, personal is better (though, often, what's more important is the conversations over lunch or while waiting for people to arrive before business itself starts).

But, I don't think it's impossible for Parliament to conduct more of it's business remotely. Many businesses are doing that to cut down on costs (not just financial, but also time taken to travel). In these days of austerity perhaps Parliament should seriously consider similar ways of cutting costs.

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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.

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Augustine the Aleut
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quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:

The real work in Parliament is done in Committees, and they would seem perfectly amenable to remote participation.

Maybe. I find that we get much more work done in-person rather than via phone or video. I'm actually surprised by how big the difference is.
IIRC (and John Holding can correct me on this) Canadian Senate committees have held remote-link meetings, primarily for the convenience (and related expenses) of farflung witnesses. As most serious parliamentary work is done in committee, video links could work much of the time with the proviso that much serious discussion needs to happen in person so some realtime sessions still need to be held, and that there are some places where it is useful for parliamentarians to see and experience first-hand.

For the issue of DPMs, I have seen them handle much of the government operations side which will often slide when PMs do their I-am-really-a-president foreign travel and PR routines. I can think of at least two DPMs (Mazankowski under Mulroney and Grey under Chrétien) who kept elaborate cabinet committee structures running smoothly and effectively for years when their bosses were off doing something or the other. As PMs try to be presidential, their time is chewed up and DPMs can end up being the chief operating officer.

While Attlee under Churchill is a good example of how this could work, I wonder if having your DPM be the head of the junior partner in a coalition might end up being something entirely different.

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Ricardus
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quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
In my experience, small video meetings (with a few locations each with a handful of people) work OK. They're significantly inferior to physical meetings, but not having to travel makes up for that. Large video meetings - with multiple rooms of many tens of people, or dozens of locations, are hopeless. The idea of a 500-location video-link debate being useful is laughable.

To be honest I find it hard to imagine that 500-member debate will ever achieve anything very much.

As a matter of fact the House of Commons does not contain enough space for all its members. For some big debates MPs have been squashed in the doorway and out into the corridor. (At least according to the tour guide a few years ago.)

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Then the dog ran before, and coming as if he had brought the news, shewed his joy by his fawning and wagging his tail. -- Tobit 11:9 (Douai-Rheims)

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Sioni Sais
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quote:
Originally posted by Augustine the Aleut:

For the issue of DPMs, I have seen them handle much of the government operations side which will often slide when PMs do their I-am-really-a-president foreign travel and PR routines. I can think of at least two DPMs (Mazankowski under Mulroney and Grey under Chrétien) who kept elaborate cabinet committee structures running smoothly and effectively for years when their bosses were off doing something or the other. As PMs try to be presidential, their time is chewed up and DPMs can end up being the chief operating officer.

While Attlee under Churchill is a good example of how this could work, I wonder if having your DPM be the head of the junior partner in a coalition might end up being something entirely different.

That's like the military situation in which one has a field officer to decide 'what' and a staff officer to work out 'how'. It takes a brave staff officer to tell his commander that something can't be done but he has to be able to do that, which Clegg never appeared able or willing to do.

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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"

(Paul Sinha, BBC)

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Cod
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I don't think the SNP want to dirty their hands with ministerial responsiblity. They only need the support of those resident in Scotland. To retain that support, they can take advantage of the purity of being a party of protest at Westminster, in the knowledge that they have already proved themselves in government in Scotland.

Which is why I do find it very interesting (and encouraging) that Nicola Sturgeon says she is on the side of those wanting reform at Westminster.

quote:
Originally posted by Ricardus:

As a matter of fact the House of Commons does not contain enough space for all its members. For some big debates MPs have been squashed in the doorway and out into the corridor. (At least according to the tour guide a few years ago.)

Another argument for rehousing Parliament away from the Palace of Westminster.

Some years back, my father was invited to a function there. He said he was faced at every turn by visual reminders of history and tradition: statues and pictures of monarchs, emblems, coats of arms, battles and so forth, and he said he was left wondering what effect this must have on the minds of MPs.

(He also said that when he and his fellow guests left the building, they found themselves being heartily cheered by a crowd of strikingly-dressed people with lots of piercings. Apparently, the bill to reduce the homosexual age of consent had passed its second reading that day, the crowd assumed they'd voted for it).

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"I fart in your general direction."
M Barnier

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M.
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I thought the House of Commons was deliberately too small for all MPs, so that when all are there, it has a bustle-y and crowded dynamic.

M.

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Firenze

Ordinary decent pagan
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quote:
Originally posted by M.:
I thought the House of Commons was deliberately too small for all MPs, so that when all are there, it has a bustle-y and crowded dynamic.

M.

I'm having difficulty imagining Barry and Pugin going -
'hey man, how about we get this really busy vibe going by squooshing up the seating?
- Let me do you finials and some bitching jambshafts to go with that.'

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Badger Lady
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I think that when the house of Commons was rebuilt after being bombed in WW2, it was suggested that a different design and possibly a bigger chamber should be built to accommodate the increased number of MPs. Churchill insisted on the original design
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Ricardus
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quote:
Originally posted by Cod:

Some years back, my father was invited to a function there. He said he was faced at every turn by visual reminders of history and tradition: statues and pictures of monarchs, emblems, coats of arms, battles and so forth, and he said he was left wondering what effect this must have on the minds of MPs.

It is quite ersatz and Victorian. It is a postwar reconstruction of a Pre-Raphaelite fantasy of what a Medieval court ought to have looked like.

(The same tour guide also informed us that one set of pictures is the reason the National Portrait Gallery was created. One of the antechambers features a number of images of historical figures, each of which has completely the wrong caption. When this was discovered, a few years after the place opened, the National Portrait Gallery was created to ensure such a silly mistake never occurred again.)

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Then the dog ran before, and coming as if he had brought the news, shewed his joy by his fawning and wagging his tail. -- Tobit 11:9 (Douai-Rheims)

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Sipech
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This piece of election news rather made me smile. After finally admitting that he was a perennial liar (or over-firm denier as he might have it), Grant Shapps is being opposed in his local constituency by none other than his alter ego's namesake, Michael Green. [Two face]

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L'organist
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But do either of them realise that the name Michael Green was that of a humourist and journalist who wrote a series of books The Art of Coarse ... on subjects from sex to acting, via sailing, rugby, etc.?

And perhaps his best book (which was reprinted a few years ago) is Squire Haggard's Journal, a Hogarthian spoof I'd recommend to anyone.

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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet

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Sioni Sais
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/tangent

Grant Shapps on the other hand, could only possibly be the name of an estate agents

tangent/

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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"

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North East Quine

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Tangent //

Our local Lib Dem candidate's first election leaflet was printed in Chelmsford and her second in Sheffield. I feel that local leaflets should be printed locally, especially as the leaflet claims that she supports local jobs. It has been suggested to me that political parties are public authorities and are legally obliged to put e.g. printing out to tender, and if a firm in Sheffield puts in a better offer, the candidate can't get their leaflets printed by a more expensive firm in the constituency. Is this true?

// End tangent

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Firenze

Ordinary decent pagan
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A political party receive some public support eg airtime on the public broadcaster, but I can't imagine they are bound by the kind of rules on Best Value that bedevil the Civil Services or local government.
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Alan Cresswell

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There are restrictions on how much money they can spend. But, I don't see why they need to go with the cheapest option, so long as they're happy with getting less leaflets printed.

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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.

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luvanddaisies

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quote:
Originally posted by Firenze:
quote:
Originally posted by M.:
I thought the House of Commons was deliberately too small for all MPs, so that when all are there, it has a bustle-y and crowded dynamic.

M.

I'm having difficulty imagining Barry and Pugin going -
'hey man, how about we get this really busy vibe going by squooshing up the seating?
- Let me do you finials and some bitching jambshafts to go with that.'

Firenze, I am now going to picture that conversation every time I see the Palace of Westminster - which on days I am working is at least six times a day. [Big Grin]

What people were saying about moving Parliament out to a different location though - Pugin's creation is apparently crumbling and falling down, and repairs are very much needed - there is discussion over whether such repairs would be possible with MPs sitting, or whether they'd have to relocate for the duration.

There are also those who say that that sort of spend is ridiculous, and that the Houses should relocate altogether, leaving someone else (National Trust? Private Company? Someone Else?) to pay the enormous repair bill.
That sounds unlikely to happen, but it's an interesting thought. I wonder how much the mechanics of government would change - the voting lobbies? The costumes? The traditions? Would that affect the MPs and the way we're goverened?


Maybe they could move Parliament to Hull and turn the Palace of Westminster into affordable homes... (that's obviously more of a concept plan than an actual suggestion, but it's a nice little springboard for thinking or discussion).

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"Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things you didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines, sail away from the safe harbour. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover." (Mark Twain)

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Anglican't
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Such is the labyrinthine nature of the Palace, you'd save up and buy a flat there and after your first trip out you'd never be able to find it again.
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Augustine the Aleut
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quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:
Such is the labyrinthine nature of the Palace, you'd save up and buy a flat there and after your first trip out you'd never be able to find it again.

This could create employment for a new trade of flatfinders.

There is no constitutional requirement for Parliament to be at Westminster, and in mediaeval times, parliaments sat at Winchester and other places, to wherever the monarch summoned them. With increasing electronic communication and storage, there is really no need for all but a few MPs and Lords to have offices and all that is really needed is a meeting hall with benches, and a dozen or so committee rooms.

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Callan
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quote:
Originally posted by North East Quine:
Tangent //

Our local Lib Dem candidate's first election leaflet was printed in Chelmsford and her second in Sheffield. I feel that local leaflets should be printed locally, especially as the leaflet claims that she supports local jobs. It has been suggested to me that political parties are public authorities and are legally obliged to put e.g. printing out to tender, and if a firm in Sheffield puts in a better offer, the candidate can't get their leaflets printed by a more expensive firm in the constituency. Is this true?

// End tangent

AIUI, candidates can put their leaflets out on vellum and written in the blood of pandas or run them off on a risograph depending on their budget and preference. I have no particular brief for the Lib Dems, but isn't this a bit parochial? I now have visions of Tubbs and Edward announcing: "Leaflets from Chelmsford! We'll have no such leaflets here! This is a local election, for local people! There's nothing for you here!" It's not like Chelmsford is in a different country, is it? I mean, you might want it to be but your fellow Scots voted otherwise.

Still, it could be worse. A UKIP candidate, apparently, got her 'Believe in Britain' leaflets printed in Germany. Her response was 'oh, but we believe in free trade'. Of course you do, Madam.
T. H. White was bang on the money with regard to this one. "Once you have nationalism you end up with monkeys throwing nuts at one another from separate trees".

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How easy it would be to live in England, if only one did not love her. - G.K. Chesterton

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North East Quine

Curious beastie
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We've now had another Lib Dem leaflet, this one printed in Lincoln. It seems a bit odd, given that the leaflets themselves state that the candidate supports local businesses, not to use one of said local businesses to print her leaflets. The Tory one was printed in the constituency. I haven't had one from either the SNP or Labour yet (I'm not sure if the Labour candidate is actually canvassing for this seat) so can't comment on those yet.
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luvanddaisies

the'fun'in'fundie'™
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This whole thing of the Tories and Labour falling over each other to paint the Scots as some sort of 'other', whose influence, if they chose to vote for the anti-austerity party of the SNP, would be malign and disasterous is so infuriating. A few months ago all the Westminster parties were babbling on patronisingly about how we were all one, and how they valued Scotland, and how they would ramp up Devolution to Devo-Max forthwith. The Devo-Max lies were apparent from pretty much the morning after, and now the lies about how they value Scotland, and we're all one union are plain to see.
I bet some of those who were undecided and then voted "No" in the referendum are bitterly regretting that now.

Here's an article from The National about how it's not England being fleeced by the Scots, but the other way around. (Yes, I know The National has a declared pro-Independence angle, but it's the on I had saved on Delicious, so I was able to actually find it!)

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quetzalcoatl
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I agree with that. It's almost as if all parties have given up on the union, and are encouraging English nationalism. If I lived in Scotland, I would foresee independence quite soon, unless it all dies down again after the election. But it's not going to go away now, unless the SNP vote collapses in the future, which seems doubtful.

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North East Quine

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It definitely feels as though the Tories are trying to shuck off Scotland.
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luvanddaisies

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# 5761

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I live in London, have done for years, although I'm Scottish, and I've never seen so much anti-Scottish feeling displayed so overtly and prominently in the press down here as now. You see the lazy generalisations, and the general ignoring (similar to that to a greater or lesser extent experienced by anyone in the UK outside London) all the time, but it appears as though the printed-press in particular have now been given license to decloak and say what they really think. Maybe it's a relief for them after having pretended to give a shit about Scotland during the Referendum period.
Why should it be so wrong that a party that people have voted for get some influence in Westminster?

Maybe they're worried by how many people from England were asking after seeing Nicola Sturgeon in the Leaders' Debates how they could vote for the SNP. Hopefully those people looking for an alternative to austerity or austerity-lite might consider voting Green.

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"Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things you didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines, sail away from the safe harbour. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover." (Mark Twain)

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quetzalcoatl
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Yes, Nicola has been the outstanding personality so far, although I must admit, Miliband is doing better than I thought he would.

But the day after the referendum, Cameron showed his hard-on for English nationalism, it's quite weird, as if he's pushing for the break-up of the union now. But I suppose the Tories just see it as a way to win this time.

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Enoch
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Several things I find really depressing about this election:-

1. No prominent politician has risen in estimation - well, one anyway - during the campaign. Several, for various different reasons and including both of the main party leaders, have gone seriously downwards in it.

2. Every day seems to see the two biggest parties pluck yet another random new policy out of their hats, like some dreadful auction for our votes.

3. Don't they realise that doing this gives the rest of us the impression that they have no confidence in their own competence to govern?

4. Under their hats, are they both assuming they aren't going to get a majority? So this will let them off the hook. Whichever one does get to form a government can blame someone else for not being able to deliver the goodies they've been promising. I'm sure this is true for most of Labour's promised extra expenditure and the Tories' right-to-buy for housing association tenants.

5. On the Union and where England fits into it, both of which are important, neither of the two main parties gives any impression that they have ever thought anything through. The Tories don't want to wake up to the fact that there needs to be some constitutional restructuring, and this isn't the only reason why. So out come policy initiatives plucked from the air. Labour, faced with losing all their Scottish seats, have gone completely silent on the subject.

6. The Greens haven't got much reason for existence now that except for UKIP the other parties all have a green agenda. So they have gone off on a batty tangent of their own but seem to be hoping no one has noticed.

7. Nicola Sturgeon speaks for the SNP, but no pundit seems to have noticed that she's the First Minister in the Scottish Parliament. Whoever else gets elected to Westminster, she won't be. So does this assume the SNP members at Westminster will be puppets on the end of mobile phones. Or will nothing that might have been said elsewhere be binding on them after the 8th of May?

8. The less said about UKIP the better.

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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
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Living in the very north of England, anti-SNP sentiment is, as far a I can tell, almost non-existent. Indeed, several people have expressed to me a willingness to vote for the SNP, if only they would stand south of the border.

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Forward the New Republic

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quetzalcoatl
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Yes, it's interesting to see if Cameron's warnings about Labour/SNP bear fruit, possibly in Scots independence! The Tories look panicky to me, Miliband surprisingly relaxed, but then he doesn't expect to win, just stop the other guy winning, and they're helping in that.

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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.

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North East Quine

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# 13049

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Originally posted by Enoch:

quote:
Nicola Sturgeon speaks for the SNP, but no pundit seems to have noticed that she's the First Minister in the Scottish Parliament. Whoever else gets elected to Westminster, she won't be. So does this assume the SNP members at Westminster will be puppets on the end of mobile phones. Or will nothing that might have been said elsewhere be binding on them after the 8th of May?
Angus Robertson is SNP leader in the House of Commons, but the media seem to be focussing on Nicola Sturgeon and Alex Salmond.
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Sioni Sais
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I'm pleased to see this thread alive again, but isn't this the most boring election in living memory?

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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"

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Eutychus
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Well, according to this week's Economist, with all the multi-party fray, the UK will have to get used to looking more like Belgium. Isn't that excitement enough?

(I'll actually be in the UK on polling day, but I've been out of the country too long to vote [Waterworks] )

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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy

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Enoch
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quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
I'm pleased to see this thread alive again, but isn't this the most boring election in living memory?

No it isn't. It's rather a worrying one but we're all trying to pretend otherwise because we'd rather not think about what will happen if our politicians foul up. 2001 was the most boring one.

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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson

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Cod
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# 2643

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This playing politics with the existence of the UK itself - I find it infuriating. The Scottish independence movement has been not only important but growing in importance for years, yet central government has simply ignored it.

I understand that Tony Blair didn't even think offering devolution to Scotland was that important a matter. It was the likes of Donald Dewar and Gordon Brown who pushed it through.

Then more recently, there was the utterly lamentable No campaign, which was topped off by a panic scramble to the north, prompted by one opinion poll that was probably rogue, and culminating in an incomprehensible and undecipherable "vow" whose only effect has been fury.

Now we have the Tories stoking up anti-Scottish resentment probably in order to squeeze the UKIP vote. It seems that we find ourselves in the astonishing sitaution that Nicola Sturgeon's is the safest pair of hands for the Union to be in, as she is the only one who seems to be interested in finding a permanent solution that works for everyone.

Now I am going to say something that I'm not particularly proud of. I deplore anti-Scottish sentiment. However, I remember living in the west of Scotland in the 90s, and felt frankly unwelcome. Lots and lots of little things - examples: my local pub with the "English Git" comic strip on the wall; the friend with the "take out the Englishman and bring in the dog", the constant, constant comparisons between English social tendencies and Scottish social tendencies, constant equating of Englishness with Toryism, both Labour and SNP stoking up the anti-English rhetoric to gain Scottish votes - and the bigger things as well - I never actually got beaten up, but there were a number of close runs.

(And in case anyone wonders if I just can't take a joke - well I remember being held halfway up the wall by the neck and called an English bastard by a friend - we were just mucking about and it doesn't count).

I've spent most of my life since then outside the UK, married someone not from the UK, and I have never encountered anything like the animosity (directed at me personally) that I experienced in Scotland.

So when I observe, for example, anti-Scottish sentiment in the English press, I instinctively think a) it's not as bad as what was in the Scottish press back in the 90s and b) what goes around comes around, and it's been a long, long time coming. My experience is that - back then at least - there was a lot of anti-English bigotry in Scotland. But the better part of me thinks: a lot of people need to grow up, put the tribalism to one side, stop scoring points off each other, and work out a new constitutional settlement that works, and I also remind myself that while I was in Scotland, I made some good friends that I keep up with to this day.

[ 26. April 2015, 21:38: Message edited by: Cod ]

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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748

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I was asked today by Christian Research to liken party leaders to Biblical characters. Yes, really.

Inevitably, Nick Clegg ended up as Judas Iscariot.

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Forward the New Republic

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North East Quine

Curious beastie
# 13049

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I did that one too. But I couldn't match Clegg with anyone on the list.
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North East Quine

Curious beastie
# 13049

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Milliband was Saul - on account of how he may be implacably opposed to the SNP just now, but he may well look at the numbers of May 8 and have a sudden conversion.
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
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Nicola Sturgeon was Moses. Let my people go...

I really wasn't sure why they needed such information, but it makes a change from the usual raft of Dead Horse questions.

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Forward the New Republic

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North East Quine

Curious beastie
# 13049

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I put Nicola Sturgeon down as Deborah. Strong, independent woman.

Anyone else do this survey?

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Stephen
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quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
I'm pleased to see this thread alive again, but isn't this the most boring election in living memory?

It is certainly the most tedious. I wouldn't mind so much but they've been campaigning for over a year now......

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Best Wishes
Stephen

'Be still,then, and know that I am God: I will be exalted among the nations and I will be exalted in the earth' Ps46 v10

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luvanddaisies

the'fun'in'fundie'™
# 5761

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quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
Several things I find really depressing about this election:-

1. No prominent politician has risen in estimation - well, one anyway - during the campaign. Several, for various different reasons and including both of the main party leaders, have gone seriously downwards in it.

I'd disagree - Miliband seems to be making a better fist of things than I'd have thought (I know, it's not the greatest of plaudits, but he does seem to be showing people he's not the useless muppet the media have tried to make him out to be).

Nicola Sturgeon has shown herself to be a force to be reckoned with.

Leanne Wood and Natalie Bennett, while not having been as impressive in the Debates as Sturgeon, have presented their Parties' policies well and shown that austerity is not inevitable. Bennett isn't the greatest speaker, true, and some of her interviews have been unfortunate, but she has nevertheless been a good Party leader, overseeing a membership surge to around 61200 (more than LibDems or UKIP) at a time that membership of the three traditionally 'main parties' is at a historic low.


quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:

5. On the Union and where England fits into it, both of which are important, neither of the two main parties gives any impression that they have ever thought anything through. The Tories don't want to wake up to the fact that there needs to be some constitutional restructuring, and this isn't the only reason why. So out come policy initiatives plucked from the air. Labour, faced with losing all their Scottish seats, have gone completely silent on the subject.

7. Nicola Sturgeon speaks for the SNP, but no pundit seems to have noticed that she's the First Minister in the Scottish Parliament. Whoever else gets elected to Westminster, she won't be. So does this assume the SNP members at Westminster will be puppets on the end of mobile phones. Or will nothing that might have been said elsewhere be binding on them after the 8th of May?

quote:
2014: David Cameron: " Scotland is a cherished part of the UK ! they are very much a part of us , as we are a part of them , we are better together "

2015: David Cameron: " Scotland having any sway in our parliament would be a disaster for this country "


[brick wall]

The "No" campaign were a shambles, and it appears that they have carried on their shambolic negativity. They didn't ever offer anything positive, just kept banging on that Bad Things might happen if Scotland left the UK. It was the "No" campaign that convinced me that I'd have voted "Yes" if I still lived back in Scotland, and meant I looked into it more, which consolidated that opinion. Afterwards it seemed more like the "Yes" had won - there have been some ongoing movements that are really interesting - for example, the Common Weal project, whose Red Lines campaign for the Election I mentioned upthread, and its spinoff news site Commonspace.
In the meantime, the "No" campaign has a broken vow and the current car-crash that is the Scottish Labour Party.

Nicola Sturgeon not being a Westminster MP might make it interesting in the event of the predicted swing to SNP, but aren't the other MPs just puppets on the end of their parties' Whips? How the SNP block behaves will be very scrutinised, so it is in their interest to stick to their principles and not sell out to the pro-austerity agenda of Labour/Tories. I think Sturgeon is a savvy enough and strong enough leader to be able to keep that on track, and hope that they get enough to make a difference.

quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:

6. The Greens haven't got much reason for existence now that except for UKIP the other parties all have a green agenda. So they have gone off on a batty tangent of their own but seem to be hoping no one has noticed.

So you haven't read their manifesto then (Here it is. Have a look)? You're just going on the right-wing Murdoch press bollocks? You are, of course, at liberty to define anti-austerity, social-justice policies that seek to reduce the gap between the poorest and the richest in society, while having a responsible plan for the environment that unites those goals as a "batty tangent" if you like. I'd rather see it as aspirational policies for much-needed change, change I would dearly like to see, and am more than pleased to vote for, even if that vote may not be counted this Election, maybe it might be buildable on for the next one or the one after.

quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:

8. The less said about UKIP the better.

Indeed.

[ 27. April 2015, 00:02: Message edited by: luvanddaisies ]

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"Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things you didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines, sail away from the safe harbour. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover." (Mark Twain)

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Cod
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# 2643

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Hmm.

David Cameron = Rehoboam
George Galloway = Shimei
Gordon Brown = Jeremiah
George Osborne = Pontius Pilate

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"I fart in your general direction."
M Barnier

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