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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: HEAVEN: Dec 2015. Book Group: "The Box Of Delights" by John Masefield
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TurquoiseTastic
Fish of a different color
# 8978
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Posted
Hello everyone and welcome to the Christmas book thread... yes, yes I know we are still in the season of Advent, but by the time we're discussing the book it'll be pretty much Christmas, innit.
And it is indeed a book which I particularly associate with Christmas. My thanks go out across three decades to my former English teacher Mr. Coghlan who sang the praises of the book to us. He also encouraged us to watch the splendid BBC adaptation involving Patrick Troughton (it needed no other recommendation to this Doctor Who fan). I remember watching it on Christmas Day just before dinner in the evening.
Anyway I was shocked to find that the copy I have had for many years is the abridged version! I have now secured a copy of the full version and please check to make sure you have done the same!
Happy reading and I'll post some questions up around the 20th.
[ 24. March 2016, 09:19: Message edited by: Firenze ]
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Ariel
Shipmate
# 58
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Posted
Indeed. I have my old copy of the full version that I've had since childhood though lacking a few pages now. I bought what I thought was a replacement, only to discover it was the abridged version, truncated by a soulless editor, and most of the poetic bits (including the prose) have been removed as irrelevant to the plot. I'm surprised they didn't update it as well while they were at it.
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Sarasa
Shipmate
# 12271
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Posted
I've just downloaded this to my Kindle. I remember something about the abridged version in discussions on the book thread, so I'm glad to report this is the full version. I don't know how I've managed never to read it as I've read most children's classics in my time, looking foirward to the discussion.
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'I guess things didn't go so well tonight, but I'm trying. Lord, I'm trying.' Charlie (Harvey Keitel) in Mean Streets.
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Penny S
Shipmate
# 14768
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Posted
I've got both books, and will probably race through "The Midnight Folk" first. I had that for Christmas one year after it had been broadcast in Children's Hour. I went upstairs to start reading, and when I was called down for a chore I said I was just finishing the chapter. Unlike "Box", it has no chapters!
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Tree Bee
Ship's tiller girl
# 4033
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Posted
Like Sarasa, I haven't read this before though I have a vague memory of it being televised.
My copy is the full monty.
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"Any fool can make something complicated. It takes a genius to make it simple."
— Woody Guthrie
http://saysaysay54.wordpress.com
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Curiosity killed ...
Ship's Mug
# 11770
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Posted
I have downloaded this to my Kindle too and am looking forward to it. (Although most of my reading will probably be later in the month when I will be able to read travelling, not w*rk.)
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Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat
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Tubbs
Miss Congeniality
# 440
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Posted
I read both last month so will pop back to contribute once the questions are up
Tubbs
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"It's better to keep your mouth shut and be thought a fool than open it up and remove all doubt" - Dennis Thatcher. My blog. Decide for yourself which I am
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Penny S
Shipmate
# 14768
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Posted
Without doing spoilers, it has occurred to me that other things were being written at the time that "The Midnight Folk" and "Box" were written that they fit in with. I remember something else that was on Children's Hour that involved children going on magical journeys somewhere. I thought it was "Where the Rainbow Ends" but it wasn't - though it is of the genre. The one that I recall had them meeting Mercury on the journey and visiting the planet, as well as bumping into St George for some reason.
If anyone else remembers it, I'd like to track it down.
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Sir Kevin
Ship's Gaffer
# 3492
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Posted
I am not familiar with this book. Can anyone give me a brief synopsis? I'll see if we can get this on Z's Nook...
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If you board the wrong train, it is no use running along the corridor in the other direction Dietrich Bonhoeffer
Writing is currently my hobby, not yet my profession.
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Ariel
Shipmate
# 58
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Posted
It's a children's book. A 1930's fantasy story. I won't say more, but Google will help you to find out.
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Jane R
Shipmate
# 331
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Posted
Is there room in this discussion for someone who read it for the first time (as a result of noticing it was about to be discussed on the Ship) and went 'meh'?
My Other Half reads it every Christmas. It's part of his Christmas rituals. But I just don't *get* why he likes it so much...
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Tubbs
Miss Congeniality
# 440
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jane R:
Is there room in this discussion for someone who read it for the first time (as a result of noticing it was about to be discussed on the Ship) and went 'meh'?
My Other Half reads it every Christmas. It's part of his Christmas rituals. But I just don't *get* why he likes it so much...
It's not my party, but I don't see why not.
Tubbs
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"It's better to keep your mouth shut and be thought a fool than open it up and remove all doubt" - Dennis Thatcher. My blog. Decide for yourself which I am
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Firenze
Ordinary decent pagan
# 619
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Posted
I have just downloaded this to my Kindle.
I heard a Children's Hour adaptation when I was a very small child, so it has always occupied that vivid, fragmented space of early memories.
I am almost afraid to read it now, in case it turns out to be just a book.
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Ariel
Shipmate
# 58
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jane R:
Is there room in this discussion for someone who read it for the first time (as a result of noticing it was about to be discussed on the Ship) and went 'meh'?
Absolutely, it would be good to have your input. I've been re-reading it over the years and still partly see it from my childhood perspective, when I loved the book. As an adult I've come to see it differently. I'm not sure how much I'd like it if I read it now for the first time, so I'll be interested to see if you come up with any of the same points.
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Sarasa
Shipmate
# 12271
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Posted
I think the discussion of this book is going to be interesting. I'm another one coming from the reading it for the first time as an adult angle. I think I'd probably have a different view of the book if I'd read it as a child.
I think we should hold off too much discussion fo the actual book until TurqouiseTastic has had a chance to post some questions. Roll on the the 20th!
[ 09. December 2015, 19:29: Message edited by: Sarasa ]
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'I guess things didn't go so well tonight, but I'm trying. Lord, I'm trying.' Charlie (Harvey Keitel) in Mean Streets.
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cattyish
Wuss in Boots
# 7829
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Posted
This is one of my re-read at Christmas books. It is quite short. I once made the mistake of taking it on a four hour flight. Poor Mr C; I ran out of book.
Cattyish, still has the VHS videos of the BBC version.
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...to know even one life has breathed easier because you have lived, this is to have succeeded.
Ralph Waldo Emerson
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Penny S
Shipmate
# 14768
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Posted
Think I've got it somewhere, too. As I recall, bits of it were very close to the original, but twee fairy bits had strangely disappeared.
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TurquoiseTastic
Fish of a different color
# 8978
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Tubbs:
quote:
Originally posted by Jane R:
Is there room in this discussion for someone who read it for the first time (as a result of noticing it was about to be discussed on the Ship) and went 'meh'?
My Other Half reads it every Christmas. It's part of his Christmas rituals. But I just don't *get* why he likes it so much...
It's not my party, but I don't see why not.
Tubbs
Absolutely fine - it would seem odd to have a book group where one wasn't allowed to dislike the book under discussion! Interesting thoughts may arise even if the book is not one's cup of tea.
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ArachnidinElmet
Shipmate
# 17346
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Posted
The book has been ordered from the library, so I'll probably get it just as you've all finished the discussion, but it's on its way.
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'If a pleasant, straight-forward life is not possible then one must try to wriggle through by subtle manoeuvres' - Kafka
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Curiosity killed ...
Ship's Mug
# 11770
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Posted
We've been rude about books before, The Rosie Project and The Miniaturist come to mind. And then there was a book club I led on the The Lieutenant, which a lot of us liked; one of the Australian shipmates, who knew far more about the background; commented on that one adversely.
I'm another reading Box of Delights for the first time as an adult. I'm going to be late to the party.
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Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat
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Eirenist
Shipmate
# 13343
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Posted
I heard it as a radio play of BBC Children's Hour and loved it. The only thing I disliked on reading the book itself was the over-use of the adjective 'charming', surprising in a book written by a poet.
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'I think I think, therefore I think I am'
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Penny S
Shipmate
# 14768
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Posted
I believe there was a lovely suit of armour, as well. Weak word and questionable concept.
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Eirenist
Shipmate
# 13343
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Posted
'Lovely little', if I remember correctly. But it's pointless to read back 21st-century anti-violence sentiments into one's view of a book written in the 1930s. As far as the radio series is concerned, I think a big factor was the use of music by Lance Sieveking, the director - Victor Hely-Hutchinson's 'Carol Symphony' and snatches of 'Pictures from an Exhibition' to give a frisson at appropriate moments. But it's the book you'll be considering.
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'I think I think, therefore I think I am'
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Penny S
Shipmate
# 14768
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Posted
It's not just the pacifist view of armour - there's a lot about metal tubing that doesn't really deserve that word. (And not all that quick to put on, either.)
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Eirenist
Shipmate
# 13343
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Posted
It was only tough little Maria who was obsessed with guns, I think.
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'I think I think, therefore I think I am'
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Penny S
Shipmate
# 14768
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Posted
Funnily enough, I liked, and still like, Maria!
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Eirenist
Shipmate
# 13343
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Posted
I agree: although she was 'scrobbled like a greenhorn' (a line omitted from the TV version), it was because the villains thought she would be a valuable addition to their gang.
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'I think I think, therefore I think I am'
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ArachnidinElmet
Shipmate
# 17346
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Posted
Having checked out my copy, requested from the library, it turns out to be the abridged version mentioned upthread. Gah. It's the only available copy, so I'll have to run with it. Does anybody know how much has been removed in abridging?
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'If a pleasant, straight-forward life is not possible then one must try to wriggle through by subtle manoeuvres' - Kafka
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Ariel
Shipmate
# 58
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Posted
What was the point of that?
I did object to the abridging - the book was written by a Poet Laureate, and the poetic bits were an integral part of the pleasure of it and should have been left in. It wasn't necessary to remove them.
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Eirenist
Shipmate
# 13343
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Posted
There's a paperback edition published by Egmont UK in 2008, text 'based on a proof copy preceding the first English edition, corrected fronm the manuscript held at the Harry Ransom Humanities Research Center, University of Texas, Austin). ISBN number is 978-1-4052-3253-1. It's illustrated by Quentin Blake.
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'I think I think, therefore I think I am'
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TurquoiseTastic
Fish of a different color
# 8978
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Posted
OK fellow Boxers – I hope you have enjoyed your reading. Having (unbeknownst to me) only possessed the abridgement before I feel I have now experienced virtually a whole new book!
Here are a few possible discussion starters. Please excuse my literary moment of madness... (well, Masefield started it...)
The Hero is our little Kay
Do you like him? Is he OK?
The Box with all that magic stuff in
How does it score as a MacGuffin?
Those flights of fancy, Herne and such
Fantastic? Or are they Too Much?
Bishops and Curates Throng the Pages
Is this a book from Christian Ages?
Mysterious Timey-Wimey Things
Tell me your thoughts on what they bring
“Dreamlike” Say Some – As we Find Out!
Is the Last Page a Big Cop-Out?
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Ariel
Shipmate
# 58
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Posted
Re-reading the book I was struck by what a confident and fearless character Kay is. Much less of a boy than Peter, who comes across as a pale shadow a lot of the time.
The Box is a lovely concept, but what I really want to know is who Cole is. He's been wandering the roads for centuries. Why? And are there more like him? What's his story?
quote:
Those flights of fancy, Herne and such
Fantastic? Or are they Too Much?
For me those are some of the loveliest parts of the book. It's actually quite a dark book to re-read as an adult: the descriptions of savage winter days, run-down areas, dismal cellars, severe weather and darkness pervade a lot of it, so the breaks are the more welcome. Cole's children's show in the early part of the book with the little army emerging from the skirting board is rather twee, though.
(Another disappointment for me has always been the description of the wonderful presents at the Bishop's Christmas party. The boys get all these marvellous toys, but the list for the girls is about two-thirds shorter and I remember thinking as a child how disappointed I'd have been just to get a necklace, sewing kit and dressing-up clothes.)
I've never thought of the book as being specifically Christian. It's just one of those things: only very dark forces would scrobble clergy.
The trip back in time is a bit of a dreamlike sequence which Kay optimistically plunges into confident he'll find a way out somehow - which in real terms is a very big expectation. Yet of course it does happen.
quote:
Is the Last Page a Big Cop-Out?
I'm going with Yes. It always felt too rushed and simplistic an explanation.
I think it's the "Midnight Folk" where Maria, Peter and Jemima are the names of Kay's childhood toys who were his companions then? That's about the only thing that makes this plausible. They're much less developed characters throughout the book and apart from Maria it's hard to get a sense of them as people.
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Penny S
Shipmate
# 14768
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Posted
I've always felt that the dream explanation was a cop-out. Masefield didn't do it in "The Midnight Folk", where Peter, Maria and Jemima were among the toys which had been removed by Pouncer. The book doesn't end with Caroline Louisa telling him about the Joneses, so it remains in the air about the possibility of their being dreams or not.
If they are dreams based on his toys, it doesn't say much about his school as a source of friends, even if he has picked up slang.
I wasn't bothered about Herne. (Pratchett did a reference, didn't he, via the god of small hunted things, or have I imagined it?) I had read a lot of books in which people met with long lost deities. My library had a sequence of brilliant Irish ones with Lugh and Angus and so on, and there were others. (Like my lost Mercury and St George adventure.) Probably there could be a thesis in it, including Garner and James Stephens.
I was bothered about the fairies. The soppy sort, they were.
How old would Kay have been - has he had a term at prep school and he is eight? Or would he be eleven? Eight would fit with the fairies and the twee animals, with his being a bit Fotherington-Thomas. Eleven wouldn't.
[ 20. December 2015, 12:14: Message edited by: Penny S ]
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Eirenist
Shipmate
# 13343
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Posted
Cole says 'I do date from pagan times'. I have read a comment that the book 'lacks any sense of religious significance'. I think there is religious feeling in it, but not perhaps specifically Christian - despite the dastardly plot to prevent the Christmas service at Tatchester.
The real 'Box of Delights' is surely Kay's imagination.
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'I think I think, therefore I think I am'
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Penny S
Shipmate
# 14768
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Posted
According to Abner Brown, Cole Hawlings is Ramon Lully. This is referred to in the Wikipedia article on a very interesting person. In a very busy life, he devised a machine for showing the truth of philosophical ideas.
I had two feelings about the Bishop's Christmas gifts. Yes, the girls' gifts were unimaginative, and how preserving of calm it was that Maria was not there. But as well, these were expensive gifts, given to the children of upper middle class families. Even though the ones we know are currently without their families. Is this the best use of the Bishop's largesse?
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Penny S
Shipmate
# 14768
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Posted
I had a thought about Cole Hawlings, leading me towards the work of Alfred Watkins, and found this. quote:
Now in the ‘N. E. D.’ is the mention of a word so obscure as to have a doubtful existence. It is our friend “cole” with the meaning of a juggler. There is also given, as of more frequent usage, “cole-prophet,” sometimes spelt “ cold-prophet,” as also meaning (in 1532) a wizard, sorcerer, or diviner of the false type. There is also there the word “cole-staff” or “cowl-staff,” used (in the Middle Ages) as a carrying-stick—evidently long like a wand.
From here: Watkins on Coldharbours.
This could have fed into Masefield's thinking. (It could even have a reference to dear Sylvia Daisy in it.)
Hawlings, though it has the feel of a name, turns out not to be one, no one has it. It isn't a placename, either. The "ingas" ending implies some early English group, or could be a diminutive. "Haw" comes from an early word for an enclosure, and is the ancestor of "hedge". I want it to mean something related to holy people, through a placename element "hoh".
Religious historical landscapes has discussion of both "ingas" names and "hoh" names which shows a connection between the two in Surrey. Whether this idea was available to Masefield I have no idea, and I suspect the surname recalls nothing.
[ 20. December 2015, 16:43: Message edited by: Penny S ]
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Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
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Posted
Hum just to add to the mix, there is also a St Colman who wanders at least for part of his life ending up on the West Coast of Ireland.
Jengie
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"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge
Back to my blog
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TurquoiseTastic
Fish of a different color
# 8978
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ariel:
Re-reading the book I was struck by what a confident and fearless character Kay is. Much less of a boy than Peter, who comes across as a pale shadow a lot of the time.
I agree and I have always liked Kay. He takes adventures in his stride and wastes no time disbelieving things. He can be cheeky and even mischievous but has a very firm moral compass.
He is friendly but seems perfectly happy to be on his own - a rather special and unusual person without being weird at all. There is a bit where Herne, I think, rewards Kay by allowing him into Faery for one day a year. That sounds about right - he is the sort of person who would be allowed to do that, like Tolkien's Smith of Wootton Major.
If Kay were in the Moomin books he would be Snufkin. Peter would be more like Moomintroll. Maria would be Little My, of course.
I would be sorry to think that the Joneses were just in Kay's imagination. I incline to think that he named some of his toys after them because he likes them.
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Tree Bee
Ship's tiller girl
# 4033
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Posted
The Hero is our little Kay
Do you like him? Is he OK?
Resourceful lad I have to say
Independent, brave all day
The Box with all that magic stuff in
How does it score as a MacGuffin?
Guess it wasn't made of tin
With his box he had to win
Those flights of fancy, Herne and such
Fantastic? Or are they Too Much?
Here I will not pull a punch
To my mind they were too much
Bishops and Curates Throng the Pages
Is this a book from Christian Ages?
Church with people still engages
At Christmas time tradition rages
Mysterious Timey-Wimey Things
Tell me your thoughts on what they bring
Pirates,islands, wolves and things
Good and evil on the wing
“Dreamlike” Say Some – As we Find Out!
Is the Last Page a Big Cop-Out?
At the end I did breathe out
Relieved the peril came to nought
The author couldn't have intended a grandma in 2015 to read and enjoy this I'm thinking. The children were frighteningly independent and unsupervised and this concerned me. I found some parts tedious but as a whole I was engaged in the flights of fancy.
I loved the author's sense of humour and the Christmassy atmosphere. And Maria is a pip!
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"Any fool can make something complicated. It takes a genius to make it simple."
— Woody Guthrie
http://saysaysay54.wordpress.com
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Ariel
Shipmate
# 58
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Tree Bee:
The author couldn't have intended a grandma in 2015 to read and enjoy this I'm thinking. The children were frighteningly independent and unsupervised and this concerned me.
You mean Kay going on a train journey by himself, talking to strange men, going into a pub by himself, the children being left alone with the servants to look after them, sneaking out during the night and so on?
The freedom he had is essential to the story, which couldn't really work in modern times. These days Kay would have had his mobile phone with him at all times, and someone to travel with him on the train, and he'd have been booted out of the pub for trying to sneak in under-age, where he then wouldn't have met Cole.
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Tree Bee
Ship's tiller girl
# 4033
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ariel:
quote:
Originally posted by Tree Bee:
The author couldn't have intended a grandma in 2015 to read and enjoy this I'm thinking. The children were frighteningly independent and unsupervised and this concerned me.
You mean Kay going on a train journey by himself, talking to strange men, going into a pub by himself, the children being left alone with the servants to look after them, sneaking out during the night and so on?
The freedom he had is essential to the story, which couldn't really work in modern times. These days Kay would have had his mobile phone with him at all times, and someone to travel with him on the train, and he'd have been booted out of the pub for trying to sneak in under-age, where he then wouldn't have met Cole.
Yes, all that stuff. As I'm an older lady reading the book now, my perspective is all wrong if I'm going to immerse myself in the story. If I'd known it was all a dream I could have relaxed a bit about all the scrobbling. But I didn't.
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"Any fool can make something complicated. It takes a genius to make it simple."
— Woody Guthrie
http://saysaysay54.wordpress.com
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Ariel
Shipmate
# 58
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Posted
One of the questions this story raises is about personal freedom. Could this story ever have been written in the current era? Could it ever be updated without significant rewriting/plot alteration? And are modern children over-protected in some ways? Would a modern child enjoy this story or be equally disconcerted by it?
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Garasu
Shipmate
# 17152
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Posted
I'm not sure that Percy Jackson is particularly wrapped in cotton wool?
Haven't children's books always had to find some way of nullifying adult involvement?
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"Could I believe in the doctrine without believing in the deity?". - Modesitt, L. E., Jr., 1943- Imager.
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venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Garasu:
Haven't children's books always had to find some way of nullifying adult involvement?
Well quite. I seriously wonder what children’s classics are left if there are no unsupervised children. Narnia, Swallows and Amazons, Famous Five, Alice, Treasure Island, Tom Sawyer…
Children want to enjoy adventures and be people in their own right.
(Even in Little Women, the story depends on the absence of the father.)
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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
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Ariel
Shipmate
# 58
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
Well quite. I seriously wonder what children’s classics are left if there are no unsupervised children. Narnia, Swallows and Amazons, Famous Five, Alice, Treasure Island, Tom Sawyer…
... which are all pre-21st century books. I do wonder whether there are any modern books for children which would survive as "children's classics" - there may be, I'm not familiar with the range apart from Harry Potter.
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venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ariel:
Would a modern child enjoy this story or be equally disconcerted by it?
If children only read books that reflect their own sociological situation, why do they read Tolkien, Alice or Winnie the Pooh?
As I say they want adventures and they can have vicariously in books which their over protected lives don't allow.
[ 23. December 2015, 08:00: Message edited by: venbede ]
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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
Posts: 3201 | From: An historic market town nestling in the folds of Surrey's rolling North Downs, | Registered: Sep 2011
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Garasu
Shipmate
# 17152
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Posted
But to pick up on the "are they being written in the 21st century" question, check out the list of Carnegie medal nominees or Costa children's book awards (as proxies for classics) and you'll find a load of them.
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"Could I believe in the doctrine without believing in the deity?". - Modesitt, L. E., Jr., 1943- Imager.
Posts: 889 | From: Surrey Heath (England) | Registered: Jun 2012
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