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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: HEAVEN: Jan 2016 Book Discussion: The Nine Tailors by Dorothy L. Sayers
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Penny S
Shipmate
# 14768
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Nenya:
I saw the television series of this, with Ian Carmichael as Lord Peter, in my early teens and subsequently read and fell in love with the book. My old copy hardback went AWOL and one of the joys of Kindle ownership has been downloading and revisiting it. I'm delighted to have a reason to read it yet again. ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
I know nothing of campanology but I love the descriptions of the bells and the ringing of the peals and the way those bells are characters in the book almost as much as the human ones. The only other book I can think of which so effectively has inanimate objects as characters in the story is Robert Harris's "Pompeii" with the Augusta (the aqueduct) and the mountain (Vesuvius).
I'm enjoying reading everyone's comments. ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
Though the descriptions of the Augusta were atmospheric, I was not entirely convinced by the detail he gave to the effects of the eruption on the aqueduct. Deformation by the inflation of the mountain prior to eruption, quite likely, though for it to have happened without immediate earthquakes not so much so; but I seem to recall rather more heat and sulphurous fumes being involved than was likely at that distance from the crater, and getting a bit concerned that he had gone beyond any evidence from archaeology, or probability from discussion with vulcanologists. I wasn't in touch with any at the time.
Just downloaded from the library and reread. Still not convinced. From Wikipedia I find that most of the Augusta is now missing, which is convenient for literary purposes.
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Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061
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Posted
And now for something completely different: a sock pattern. Complete with bell markers! I have not tried to knit these, but it looks like a magnificent project. I can think of no other knitting pattern inspired by a novel. (You can get Harry Potter sweaters, but these are the sweaters actually worn by Harry in the movie.)
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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page
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Landlubber
Shipmate
# 11055
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Posted
Children were still singing the Muffin man song in the 1930s (and up to the 1950s at least) referring to the door-to-door delivery of muffins (like milk, bread and much else).
I am off to dust down my copy of The Nine Taylors (second-hand paperback, but I have no recollection of whether this was the first Sayers' book I read) and would like to join in.
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They that go down to the sea in ships … reel to and fro, and stagger like a drunken man
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Sarasa
Shipmate
# 12271
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Posted
Brenda CLough said:
quote:
And now for something completely different: a sock pattern.
That is a beautiful pattern, and no, I've nver seen a pattern inspired by a book quite like it. Pictures of cartoon characters yes, but something that is more a meditation on the story is wonderful. I'm fair to good knitter, but I don't fancy my chances making those, though I'm tempted to have a go.
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'I guess things didn't go so well tonight, but I'm trying. Lord, I'm trying.' Charlie (Harvey Keitel) in Mean Streets.
Posts: 2035 | From: London | Registered: Jan 2007
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Penny S
Shipmate
# 14768
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Posted
Seriously impressive pattern, and what a shame it isn't currently available.
I did once, while watching Morris at the Rochester Sweeps Festival, and hearing the Cathedral bells, consider that there might possibly be some sort of link between the maths of bells and the maths of the Morris patterns, and that if certain patterns were to be done simultaneously something might happen... under the influence of Pratchett, I must have been at the time. I definitely thought there was a possible plot in attempting to prevent whatever it was.
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Sparrow
Shipmate
# 2458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Landlubber:
Children were still singing the Muffin man song in the 1930s (and up to the 1950s at least) referring to the door-to-door delivery of muffins (like milk, bread and much else).
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I was certainly still singing it in my Brownie group in the mid 60s.
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For I am persuaded that neither death, nor life,nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present nor things to come, nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, will be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Posts: 3149 | From: Bottom right hand corner of the UK | Registered: Mar 2002
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Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061
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Posted
Was someone looking for other books that feature bellringing? Here is a list with many excerpts.
And here is a broader analysis of Peter Wimsey's evolution through the course of the books.
And, if anybody has heard of Trinitarian Don -- a law professor interested in Christianity -- here is his overview of the novels.
In the circles I move in, there is much interest in the idea of alternate realities, anti-matter universes, and essentially places where Things Are Different than here. Over here, in the friendly end of the pool of literature, the idea is to write readably, to be accessible and understandable. There is another universe, over on the academic side, where all these polarities are entirely reversed. Mostly it is not worth going over there (do we really want to see a Derrida analysis of Lord Peter's political views?) but it could be done.
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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page
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Bibaculus
Shipmate
# 18528
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Penny S:
I did once, while watching Morris at the Rochester Sweeps Festival, and hearing the Cathedral bells, consider that there might possibly be some sort of link between the maths of bells and the maths of the Morris patterns, and that if certain patterns were to be done simultaneously something might happen... under the influence of Pratchett, I must have been at the time. I definitely thought there was a possible plot in attempting to prevent whatever it was.
I can proudly claim to be both a former change ringer and a former morris man (isn't everyone?) And I think I can say with certainty that there is no connection whatsoever.
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A jumped up pantry boy who never knew his place
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Jane R
Shipmate
# 331
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Posted
Well, you would say that, wouldn't you... ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
Posts: 3958 | From: Jorvik | Registered: May 2001
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Sir Kevin
Ship's Gaffer
# 3492
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Posted
I'm in. Should be going to local library later today and I shall expect it on the shelf.
Speaking of shelves, mine are cluttered. We have more books than we have room for because we read a book once and then put it away. I wish we could hire a retired librarian like Tree Be (sp.) to catalogue them! She worked in Greenwich and we met her for a lovely lunch at a pub on thee Thames when we went to England to meet some local Shipmates. I know SC and Esme remember us well, but we now are much slimmer and have more white hair than when we met nearly ten years ago!
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If you board the wrong train, it is no use running along the corridor in the other direction Dietrich Bonhoeffer
Writing is currently my hobby, not yet my profession.
Posts: 30517 | From: White Hart Lane | Registered: Oct 2002
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Tree Bee
Ship's tiller girl
# 4033
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sir Kevin:
I'm in. Should be going to local library later today and I shall expect it on the shelf.
Speaking of shelves, mine are cluttered. We have more books than we have room for because we read a book once and then put it away. I wish we could hire a retired librarian like Tree Be (sp.) to catalogue them! She worked in Greenwich and we met her for a lovely lunch at a pub on thee Thames when we went to England to meet some local Shipmates. I know SC and Esme remember us well, but we now are much slimmer and have more white hair than when we met nearly ten years ago!
Ah, Sir K, it would be a bit of a trek for me to unclutter your bookshelves, but I'm flattered to be remembered. I indeed met you in Greenwich, but worked a few miles north of London in Milton Keynes. Wishing you and Zeke well.
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"Any fool can make something complicated. It takes a genius to make it simple."
— Woody Guthrie
http://saysaysay54.wordpress.com
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Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061
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Posted
My husband hopes to retire to the west coast, many thousands of miles from here. I have pointed out that we cannot possibly afford to ship all these books across the country. (We have something like 20 floor-to-ceiling bookcases.) A great winnowing has therefore been going on, as we toss books that neither of us wants to read any more.
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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page
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Sarasa
Shipmate
# 12271
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Posted
Tree Bee, as another more or less retired librarian I can see we could offer a great service travelling the world sorting out shipmates book collections.
I guess we ought to get back to the book, I finished it last week, and am looking forward to the discussion.
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'I guess things didn't go so well tonight, but I'm trying. Lord, I'm trying.' Charlie (Harvey Keitel) in Mean Streets.
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Penny S
Shipmate
# 14768
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Posted
The lady from John Lewis who came to measure my windows for curtain fittings almost offered to re-sort my books according to Dewey, being a "redundant" librarian from our Carnegie building.
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Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061
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Posted
We should probably give it another couple days before we begin. How essential is the asking-questions format?
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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page
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Ariel
Shipmate
# 58
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Posted
I think most people would probably find it helpful to have a few starting points to get the ball rolling.
Sometimes you can be surprised by what's been picked out to focus on.
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Uncle Pete
Loyaute me lie
# 10422
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sparrow:
quote:
Originally posted by Landlubber:
Children were still singing the Muffin man song in the 1930s (and up to the 1950s at least) referring to the door-to-door delivery of muffins (like milk, bread and much else).
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I was certainly still singing it in my Brownie group in the mid 60s.
And we were still teaching it to younger scouts in the late 80s, though I am sure that they were quite confused by it, but put it down to dear, dotty Scouter Pete. And now, I have an earworm.
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Even more so than I was before
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Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061
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Posted
Unfortunately I can't think of a nice long laundry list of questions, but maybe dribbling some discussion points out over a period of time will be okay.
1. The ending. I am in two minds about it. It's not one of those endings where you cry, "Oh wow, she stuck that one perfectly!" The Superintendent with the last word? I suspect Sayers knew it, which is why the -very- end is the voice of the bells. Which does tie it in somewhat to the beginning, when Lord Peter and Bunter hear the church chimes through the storm.
2. Voice. Sayers is a master at this -- all the characters sound different, and sound like themselves. (You UKians could say, how good she is with the rural idiom.)
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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page
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Firenze
Ordinary decent pagan
# 619
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Posted
It is also that rare (unique?) mystery in which the detective is in effect the murderer. Since if Lord Peter had not turned up then the bells would not have been rung....
[ 19. January 2016, 07:56: Message edited by: Firenze ]
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Chamois
Shipmate
# 16204
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Posted
Legally speaking there isn't a murderer. To commit murder there has to be an intention to kill. Will Thoday didn't intend to kill Deacon when he tied him up in the bell chamber, and none of the ringers intended to kill anyone when they rang their peal. So there was no murder. That's why the Superintendent can let the matter go.
Unless it can be argued that the bells intended to kill? Or the ghost/spirit of Abbott Thomas, acting through the bell that bears his name?
I find the ending very satisfying. It seems to me that one theme of the book is people caught up in forces of nature (death, illness, the floods) and events (the Great War) which are beyond their control. The characters have to deal with these events as well as they can, some manage this better than others. The ending shows that Deacon's death was really just down to pure chance - if he'd turned up at Fenchurch St Paul at just about any other time of year he wouldn't have died in this way. Is it fate? Is it something supernatural about the bells being "jealous of the presence of evil"? Or is it plain bad luck? Sayers leaves the question open to the reader to consider.
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The steadfast love of the Lord never ceases
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Sparrow
Shipmate
# 2458
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Posted
I think the point that struck me most on re-reading after several years, was that how few Christians nowadays would feel sufficiently guilty on discovering that they were not married, that they would not attend Holy Communion but dash off at the first opportunity to get married. Or that they should be so worried that people might point the finger at their children for being born out of wedlock. Just shows how far public opinion has changed since the 1920s.
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For I am persuaded that neither death, nor life,nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present nor things to come, nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, will be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
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Bibaculus
Shipmate
# 18528
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Firenze:
It is also that rare (unique?) mystery in which the detective is in effect the murderer. Since if Lord Peter had not turned up then the bells would not have been rung....
Wasn't there some postmodernist detective story in which the murderer turned out to be the person reading the story? Not quite sure how that would work...
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A jumped up pantry boy who never knew his place
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Pearl B4 Swine
Ship's Oyster-Shucker
# 11451
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Posted
I've read this book many times, and never tire of it. But I have trouble with stories where people change identity, or switch names, so that I'm not sure who is who. The French underwear helps me some in this one.
Bunter's trick of snatching the letter from France is great. He's mostly waiting in the background as Lord W's 'man' should be.
I do feel that poor Will's dying effort to save another fellow in the roiling water and timbers is a bit too much. Yes, it proves his moral fiber and goodness, but hasn't poor Mary had enough tragedy?
And, what happened to the severed hands of the corpse? Down the well, I guess.
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Oinkster
"I do a good job and I know how to do this stuff" D. Trump (speaking of the POTUS job)
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Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061
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Posted
The Mysterious Affair at Styles by Agatha Christie is a mystery with that sort of surprise twist. I hope this is not a spoiler, but the book has been out for half a century or so.
Another interesting point to contemplate is class. The divisions are very clear in the text. From the very outset the Rev. signals that he is of the same class as Wimsey (read your book about incunabula!). The Thodays are most superior people.
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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page
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Bibaculus
Shipmate
# 18528
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
Another interesting point to contemplate is class. The divisions are very clear in the text. From the very outset the Rev. signals that he is of the same class as Wimsey (read your book about incunabula!). The Thodays are most superior people.
The question of class interested me. As you say, and Anglican clergyman would be of the same class as the son of a peer. He is educated, has servants, can talk about port. I guess the Methodist minister and catholic priest, should they exist, would inhabit rather different worlds.
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A jumped up pantry boy who never knew his place
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Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061
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Posted
There's a nice contrast between Venables and the (clearly very evangelical) minister in Strong Poison. A reformed criminal converted to the faith, he is of a very different style indeed, and I do not get the sense that he (or Wimsey himself) feels he is of an upper class. I do recall however that after the service the family sat down to a meal of pig trotters, which even an American can see is a lower-class viand. So food ties into class -- what you eat shows what you are. The Reverend's port shows his class.
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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page
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Bibaculus
Shipmate
# 18528
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Posted
There is also the question of churchmanship. The fen country is historically Low Church (and Oliver Cromwell's memory is frequently invoked in the book). But Mr Venables seems to be trying to push things a few notches up the candle. I wonder, though, if the more Anglo-Catholic is not Mrs Venables? She is the one who talks of wanting a Lady Altar, for example, and her husband seems too lost in his enthusiasms, work and absent-mindedness to worry too much about such things.
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A jumped up pantry boy who never knew his place
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Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061
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Posted
Neither Mr. and Mrs. Venables seem to be local persons, native to the region. Hilary Thorpe and her dad, OTOH, clearly are from a long line of Thorpes.
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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page
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venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
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Posted
There's always an example of the opposite churchpersonship around - catholics in Sydney or Liverpool or evangelicals in London.
Walpole St Peter that I visited this autumn was clearly up the candle. And the most loved, cared for and pastorally orientated church I visited in the Fens.
My question is what is this Midnight Service on New Year's Eve? It starts like mattins or evensong. Is it a late evensong or an early mattins? It clearly isn't a Watch Night Service. There's a Methodist church in the village which could be doing that.
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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
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georgiaboy
Shipmate
# 11294
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Posted
Fenchurch St. Paul seems a 'bit up the candle' in that, it seems to me unusual that it has a men and boys' choir (inferred) and that services are 'fully choral' likewise inferred from the planning for the stranger's funeral. An 'early celebration' for New Year's Day is also mentioned.
Also, the village, based on the illustrative map, seems rather small to provide all this, though there may indeed be many outlying families.
My impression of the New Year's Eve 11 pm service, is that Mr. Venables has got it up to 'kick off' his peal. Could it be early Mattins of the Feast of the Circumcision? I may of course be mistaken.
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You can't retire from a calling.
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Jane R
Shipmate
# 331
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Posted
quote:
Unless it can be argued that the bells intended to kill? Or the ghost/spirit of Abbott Thomas, acting through the bell that bears his name?
I wonder if the choice of the Abbot's name was a nod to M R James's ghost story 'The Treasure of Abbot Thomas'?
I thought the ending was rather unsatisfying - after proving conclusively that nobody could have killed Deacon, Wimsey finds out how he died more or less by accident.
I never really thought about what service they had on New Year's Eve; I just assumed it was Evensong or Evening Prayer. They would have had to start ringing at 3 in the afternoon so they could finish by midnight (the vicar says it will take nine hours). I don't know the BCP services very well, but a lot of the prayers for Mattins/Morning Prayer in Common Worship and the ASB are used for Evening Prayer as well.
Firenze raises the question of whether Deacon have died if Wimsey hadn't been there. I thought they were still planning to ring a peal for the New Year; even if they didn't have enough ringers for Kent Treble Bob the vicar was talking about doing something else with a smaller number of bells. Maybe they wouldn't have gone on for nine hours, so it's possible Deacon would have survived the experience, but Wimsey was a quivering wreck after only a few minutes in the bell chamber with a clear conscience. It's hard to say what would have happened if he hadn't been there, because the vicar has hardly begun to consider alternative plans before realising that Wimsey is a ringer and sandbagging him to help out. Some things haven't changed over the last century in the C of E...
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Penny S
Shipmate
# 14768
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Posted
I don't think someone local would put the hands down the well - not when it was still in use. One of the drains, more like, where they would be eaten.
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Trudy Scrumptious
BBE Shieldmaiden
# 5647
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Posted
One of the things I questioned at the ending (on this reading, not when I initially read the book years ago) was the assumption that since nobody actually murdered Deacon, neither Will or James Thoday could be charged with anything. Will had the man imprisoned in the bell tower, in circumstances which led to his death -- surely for tying him up he could be charged with something, and wouldn't there have been a charge like involuntary manslaughter to be applied to causing someone's death like that? As for James, certainly there's a possible charge of -- what do they call it? Committing indignities to a body? Not to mention covering up the man's death. I thought both Will and James got off pretty easily in the eyes of the law on the grounds that, "Well, neither of them actually MEANT to kill him." But between them, they did -- unintentionally -- and it seems to be swept under the rug simply because Deacon was a bad man and got what was coming to him, or something.
There are so many things I love about this book, though, that I'm quite happy to forgive plot flaws -- for me the Sayers book are all about setting and character, and I often forget the plots, which means I can happily reread them years later because I can't recall whodunit. (In this case I couldn't remember whodunit or why, but I remembered the cause of death quite vividly, because it's so unusual). Even having only re-read this one a couple of weeks ago I'm finding myself sketch on retrieving some of the details -- the false identity, and why Deacon came back from France (it was Deacon who was in France all those years, right?), and all those fiddly bits. But I'll never forget the image of a man tied up in the bell tower, driven to madness and death by the sound of the bells. That's the kind of detail that lingers when the complexities of the plot are lost (to a brain like mine).
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Books and things.
I lied. There are no things. Just books.
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Sarasa
Shipmate
# 12271
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Posted
I think the ending is fairly typical of Sayers. She (or Wimsey) enjoys the detective part, but hates the consequences, hence WIll Thoday meeting a hero's death (wouldn't James T. be prosecuted for unlawful burial or something?). I think it's rather a good ending in that like life there is no clear defined end, life carries on, and the bells echo the start.
I agree that Sayers is good at characters, but they are all 'characters' with defined foibles and mannerisms, Theodore Venebles and his absent mindedness for instance. I'm not at all sure that she 'got' the working class people though. My grandmother was bon about 1890 and was a servant at much the same time as this story. She had a cockney accent,didn't have a lot of education, and thought the Tories were the natural rulers of the country. However she was much more intelligent and funnier than I think Sayers, Christie or any other detective writer of the time would have portrayed her.
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'I guess things didn't go so well tonight, but I'm trying. Lord, I'm trying.' Charlie (Harvey Keitel) in Mean Streets.
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Sparrow
Shipmate
# 2458
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Posted
Some of the descriptive writing is absolutely first rate. The first description of the beginning of the New Year's peal with the bells ringing out over the midnight Fens grabs me by the throat every time. "The bells gave tongue ....."
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For I am persuaded that neither death, nor life,nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present nor things to come, nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, will be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Posts: 3149 | From: Bottom right hand corner of the UK | Registered: Mar 2002
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Athrawes
Ship's parrot
# 9594
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Posted
It always seems to me that the real victims of the novel are Will and Mary. They suffer the most from Deacon's actions, through no fault of their own. Will had a choice of going to the police and having all the gossip, disapproval and his children acknowledged as illegitimate, or trying to sort the problem privately. It is no wonder that he chose the latter path. It was just chance that it went wrong, again through no fault of his.
It also struck me that nothing is done to address this damage, and the only character to actually acknowledge this is Charles Parker, when he said, "Speaking as a policeman, I am shocked. Speaking as a human being, I have every sympathy for you."
I've found the ending of the novel rather sad because of this.
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Explaining why is going to need a moment, since along the way we must take in the Ancient Greeks, the study of birds, witchcraft, 19thC Vaudeville and the history of baseball. Michael Quinion.
Posts: 2966 | From: somewhere with a book shop | Registered: Jun 2005
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Sandemaniac
Shipmate
# 12829
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Posted
Jim Thoday chucked the hands into the Thirty Foot Drain (one of the big drainage channels, I believe there was a Sixteen Foot Drain in her father's parish at Bluntisham) twelve miles from Fenchurch St Paul, no doubt to vanish into the Fens' copious quantities of eels.
I would suggest that FStPaul is probably a large parish with a small village, so that there are many outlying farms and hamlets, common in East Anglia. There could well also be detached portions, or it could just be plain huge - look up Gedney and Gedney Drove End for an example of the latter. There is no shortage of churches it could be based on - the area was rich as Creosote in the late middle ages, so there are many great "wool churches" eg Lavenham, Thaxted, Long Melford attached to relatively small settlements. Plus, of course, St Wendreda's in March which anyone passing anywhere even vaguely near to March should make a diversion to. Its angels are truly fabulous.
The Wale must be the Nene, especially as it runs to Walbeach - or Wisbech in what passes for real life up there.
The question that interests me is, as a ringer myself, how do non-ringers find the ringing writ large through the plot? Is the technical stuff a help or a hindrance?
AG
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"It becomes soon pleasantly apparent that change-ringing is by no means merely an excuse for beer" Charles Dickens gets it wrong, 1869
Posts: 3574 | From: The wardrobe of my soul | Registered: Jul 2007
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BroJames
Shipmate
# 9636
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
So food ties into class -- what you eat shows what you are. The Reverend's port shows his class.
It's interesting to compare and contrast this couple with the Revd Simon Goodacre and his wife quote:
'— untidy, with a wife who does her best on a small stipend; a product of one of our older seats of learning — 1890 vintage — Oxford at a a guess, but not, I fancy, Keble, though as high in his views as the parish allows him to be.'
from Busman's Honeymoon who in many respects are very similar. Simon Goodacre has education in common with Wimsey, but his sherry is not at all to be recommended quote:
'Peter, you're not normal. You have a social conscience far in advance of your sex. Public-house sherry at the vicarage! Ordinary, decent men shuffle and lie till their wives drag them out by the ears.'
Posts: 3374 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2005
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Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061
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Posted
For me the bellringing works fine. It counts as worldbuilding -- the stuff that you have to have, to make the world fully deep and real. In Sayers' mind it was clearly thematic, which is why the bells get the last word. She was prone to using the very last sentences to emphasize theme -- I remember the last sentence in Murder Must Advertise -- "advertise, or go under." Also note the chapter titles and chapter headers, which apparently were the first thing she would create.
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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page
Posts: 6378 | From: Washington DC | Registered: Mar 2014
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Sir Kevin
Ship's Gaffer
# 3492
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Posted
Z (my wife) and I have been very busy in and out of hospital with misdiagnosed heart conditions. I have placed a hold at our local library and should be able to read a good bit after work and before she gets home from choir practice. I may manage to finish it by the end of the week, depending on how long my gig that starts tomorrow is...
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If you board the wrong train, it is no use running along the corridor in the other direction Dietrich Bonhoeffer
Writing is currently my hobby, not yet my profession.
Posts: 30517 | From: White Hart Lane | Registered: Oct 2002
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Sparrow
Shipmate
# 2458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Athrawes:
It always seems to me that the real victims of the novel are Will and Mary. They suffer the most from Deacon's actions, through no fault of their own. Will had a choice of going to the police and having all the gossip, disapproval and his children acknowledged as illegitimate, or trying to sort the problem privately. It is no wonder that he chose the latter path. It was just chance that it went wrong, again through no fault of his.
It also struck me that nothing is done to address this damage, and the only character to actually acknowledge this is Charles Parker, when he said, "Speaking as a policeman, I am shocked. Speaking as a human being, I have every sympathy for you."
I've found the ending of the novel rather sad because of this.
Yes, I've always felt it was wrong that Will had to be killed off. I guess the stricter standards of morality at the time the book was written meant that someone had to pay the price - someone had died, so someone had to suffer the consequences.
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For I am persuaded that neither death, nor life,nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present nor things to come, nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, will be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Posts: 3149 | From: Bottom right hand corner of the UK | Registered: Mar 2002
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Jane R
Shipmate
# 331
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Posted
Just noticed this mistake in a previous post: quote:
They would have had to start ringing at 3 in the afternoon so they could finish by midnight (the vicar says it will take nine hours).
They *started* at midnight, so they must have finished at nine in the morning on New Year's Day (after keeping the rest of the parish up all night). My bad.
I suppose Will could have been charged with manslaughter and James could have been charged with desecrating a body and denying it Christian burial. But as Deacon was supposed to be dead (having officially died twice during the First World War, once in his own name and once under his pseudonym) it would have been embarrassing for the authorities to make the whole sorry mess public. Which is another good reason for the Superintendent to let the matter drop.
Thinking a bit more about the ending, it's true that Will's death is tragic, and it is unfair that Will and Mary suffer so much through no fault of their own. But compare the development of their characters in this story with any of Agatha Christie's working-class characters. The Thodays are intelligent, hard-working people deserving of respect. The story is really about them, not about Wimsey's feats of detection or Hilary's financial difficulties.
And surely for a Christian, Will's death is only a tragedy for his family who will have to manage without him? For him, dying in an attempt to save someone else's life might have been preferable to living for another thirty or forty years tormented by guilt.
Of course, he might have just jumped in to try and save the other man without considering the risk to himself.
Posts: 3958 | From: Jorvik | Registered: May 2001
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venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
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Posted
I was going to post about the timing of the service, but Jane got in first.
The service is before midnight. It starts "Dearly beloved brethren" and continues with the General Confession. It could be either mattins or evensong and not quite the right time of day for either.
I agree about Will and Mary. They are tragic dignified characters. It is a relief to see working class people not as just comic relief.
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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
Posts: 3201 | From: An historic market town nestling in the folds of Surrey's rolling North Downs, | Registered: Sep 2011
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Bibaculus
Shipmate
# 18528
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Posted
There are working class comic relief characters, of course - the sluice keeper, for example. But I agree, Will's death is tragic. It seems unnecessary, but presumably Sayers did consider it necessary. I wonder what that says about changing attitudes over the last 80 years?
Mr Venables has no objection to Undenominational Services with the nonconformists, while the village is flooded, so I think he is not too much of a Prayer Book loyalist to devise something non-liturgical for New Year's Eve. I cannot see how it would be Matins (or Evensong, come to that).
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A jumped up pantry boy who never knew his place
Posts: 257 | From: In bed. Mostly. When I can get away with it. | Registered: Dec 2015
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venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
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Posted
Lord Peter follows the service in his prayer book to say the responses. (Surely he'd know them by heart?) This implies it is a liturgical service. I suspect Sayers hasn't got her liturgy quite right, as she hasn't got her architecture quite right either.
Will and Mary's tragedy is the heart of the book - without it, the book would be whimsical in more ways than one.
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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
Posts: 3201 | From: An historic market town nestling in the folds of Surrey's rolling North Downs, | Registered: Sep 2011
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Athrawes
Ship's parrot
# 9594
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Posted
My impression has always been that Will went in to help the other man without thinking - the description is clear that the whole thing was very quick. I always assumed that it was intended to show the type of person Will was, but maybe the times called for 'a life for a life'. It was Mary who said he didn't want to live, which ties in with him having guessed how Deacon died. I don't think we're told that Will *knew*, just that he's guessed.
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Explaining why is going to need a moment, since along the way we must take in the Ancient Greeks, the study of birds, witchcraft, 19thC Vaudeville and the history of baseball. Michael Quinion.
Posts: 2966 | From: somewhere with a book shop | Registered: Jun 2005
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Jane R
Shipmate
# 331
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Posted
Brenda: quote:
The Mysterious Affair at Styles by Agatha Christie is a mystery with that sort of surprise twist. I hope this is not a spoiler, but the book has been out for half a century or so.
Almost a century actually - it was first published in 1920, and written in 1916. This caused quite a lot of problems for Christie aficionadoes desperately trying to think of an explanation for how a retired Belgian detective who was a refugee in the First World War could still be merrily exercising his little grey cells in the 1960s. Though not as many problems as the continuity errors between 'Curtain' (written during the Second World War) and the post-war books.
Posts: 3958 | From: Jorvik | Registered: May 2001
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BroJames
Shipmate
# 9636
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
Lord Peter follows the service in his prayer book to say the responses. (Surely he'd know them by heart?) This implies it is a liturgical service. I suspect Sayers hasn't got her liturgy quite right, as she hasn't got her architecture quite right either.
Will and Mary's tragedy is the heart of the book - without it, the book would be whimsical in more ways than one.
There was evidently a strong tradition of Watch Night services, and Dorothy Sayers probably took it for granted that her readers knew what they entailed. In my own parish they were a regular New Year tradition and the parish magazines see no need to describe what would happen. I guess something would have been confected from the BCP resources - possibly including the Greater Litany, for which Lord Peter might have wanted to follow his prayer book as it is easy to get lost if you don't concentrate.
Posts: 3374 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2005
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Penny S
Shipmate
# 14768
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Posted
Both my grandmothers had been in service, and both were intelligent. The one used to write stories on old sugar packets, and as a child had resisted pressures to bob to carriage folk as God had made them better than her. She had also worked as pupil teacher in the local school (I must try and track down the logbooks to find her inspection reports. The school is now closed and replaced by one with another name.) The other had collected furniture sold in a sale of distrained goods from Mrs Charlotte Despard, a suffragist who refused to pay taxes as she was not represented. I have a table and two chairs from this source. (I am in two minds about Mrs Despard, whom we were brought up to respect, since finding out that the tax she refused to pay was her staff's National Insurance contributions.)
Chapel, both of them. And not much like the cartoon lower orders portrayed in many books. Their children went to grammar school, and qualified for Oxbridge, but could not go because of the expense.
I am not finding most of the locals grating at all, though, except the sluice keeper, who could have been played by one of Shakespeare's clowns.
I suspect that the housekeeper may have been based on someone Sayers had met. But someone in that rather dreadful position occupied by governesses as well, neither fish, fowl nor good red herring in the class system, and so perpetually hanging on to what tiny bit of status they could. (Compare Miss Sylvia Daisy Pouncer in the Masefield, who went to rather extreme lengths.)
I like BroJames' link to the men insisting on their Watch Night service.
[ 20. January 2016, 12:47: Message edited by: Penny S ]
Posts: 5833 | Registered: May 2009
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Bibaculus
Shipmate
# 18528
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Posted
Very interesting link about new year's eve services. I note that it is not a Catholic custom, but as the previous incumbent had been 'dreadfully low' according to Mrs V, maybe the Rector felt he had to keep it up. And it provided a pretext for his peal.
The housekeeper- grander than the Family - is simply dreadful. I confess I liked Mrs Venables best. Always worried that her offerings of food would be acceptable to Lord Peter.
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A jumped up pantry boy who never knew his place
Posts: 257 | From: In bed. Mostly. When I can get away with it. | Registered: Dec 2015
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