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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: HEAVEN: Jan 2016 Book Discussion: The Nine Tailors by Dorothy L. Sayers
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Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061
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Posted
Past works stand as they are (unless George MacDonald's bowdlerizers get busy on them). More interesting is what the modern writer should do, when writing a historical work. Keep it accurately historical, preserving all the anti-Semitism, racism and sexism, thus enraging the reader? Or write it unrealistically egalitarian, pleasing the audience but kissing historical accuracy goodbye?
Over in the theater they have been wrestling with this more creatively, because you can see the race of a person on the stage without having to tinker with Shakespeare's words. A fascinating and very popular musical on Broadway now is Hamilton, about Alexander Hamilton. He himself had 'a touch of the tarbrush' which for long swathes of American history was politely ignored. He is now being played by a Hispanic actor who will probably win the Tony Award.
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Penny S
Shipmate
# 14768
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Posted
I've been irritated by a couple of recent British TV series set in the past (though not by the Dr Who episode with a black trader in the crowd at Tyburn - I was more irritated by the castle in the background).
In the "Merlin" series, Guinevere was played black, not the only one in a multicultural Camelot. It was just about possible to swallow in a totally mucked up universe which would have been much better if they had invented their own characters instead of utterly changing relationships and plot. But Guinevere's name means white. The Saracen knight in Malory was noticed as being what he was.
In Robin Hood, Friar Tuck was black. Nobody noticed. Nobody wondered if he was a Saracen (a villainous part in St George plays later, and a word finding its way into use for anything foreign). Nobody wondered if it would wash off. Nobody asked where he had come from. It was just not possible in the period, and yet, they could have run with it with a thoughtful backstory. A slave from Outremer, escaped from his Saracen owner with the help of some friars, converted, and then coming to England with Robin. Just as likely as Morgan Freeman in the film. Who did have an explanation.
You can't rewrite the past, except to make it more like the past it really was. With evidence. Such as the woman selling stuff at Tyburn.
[ 05. February 2016, 18:36: Message edited by: Penny S ]
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venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
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Posted
At least Jews etc. were allowed to exist, whereas anyone like me cannot.
If I do come across a limp wristed, bitchy queen, far from objecting to the stereotype, I cheer to find a possible gay man at all.
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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
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Curiosity killed ...
Ship's Mug
# 11770
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Posted
Sayers wasn't bad on including homosexuality either. I have wondered about Lord Peter's mannered gossipy Uncle Paul in that light; it's that sort of characterisation of the unmarried uncle that you sometimes see. You also have Harriet's girlfriends in Bohemian 20's London and I'm sure there will be coded references to gay men there too, as Sayers is writing after Wilde and the Aesthetes and Bloomsbury set.
There's a definite lesbian relationship in Unnatural Death.
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Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat
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venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jane R:
The only reason why the class system is not so obtrusive in Allingham's books is because she hardly ever mentions it! Albert Campion is the son of a duke who marries an Earl's sister - you don't get much more snobbish than that.
If he's the son of a duke he'd be Lord Albert Campion and he never uses the title. That's not snobbery.
There's as much social variety as in Sayers. Lugg v Bunter.
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Man was made for joy and woe;
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Thro' the world we safely go.
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Dafyd
Shipmate
# 5549
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Firenze:
And of course Chesterton is unreadable now for his monomaniacal anti-Semitism.
I think the anti-semitism is more of a problem later in Chesterton's life (that's not the only way in which Chesterton became a weaker writer when he got older).
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we remain, thanks to original sin, much in love with talking about, rather than with, one another. Rowan Williams
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Dafyd
Shipmate
# 5549
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Penny S:
In Robin Hood, Friar Tuck was black. Nobody noticed. Nobody wondered if he was a Saracen (a villainous part in St George plays later, and a word finding its way into use for anything foreign). Nobody wondered if it would wash off. Nobody asked where he had come from. It was just not possible in the period, and yet, they could have run with it with a thoughtful backstory.
St Maurice was always depicted as being black, and had a cult which was widespread at least across the Holy Roman Empire. And one of the three kings was always shown as black (is it Melchior?)
I think having a black character in Robin Hood and not making a thing of it was a reasonable compromise.
(Better than The Musketeers, which made one of the musketeers black and did make a thing of it in his background. Now if they'd just had the courage to base the character on Dumas' father; but I suppose they thought everyone would complain it was utterly implausible if they did.)
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we remain, thanks to original sin, much in love with talking about, rather than with, one another. Rowan Williams
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Curiosity killed ...
Ship's Mug
# 11770
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
quote:
Originally posted by Jane R:
The only reason why the class system is not so obtrusive in Allingham's books is because she hardly ever mentions it! Albert Campion is the son of a duke who marries an Earl's sister - you don't get much more snobbish than that.
If he's the son of a duke he'd be Lord Albert Campion and he never uses the title. That's not snobbery.
There's as much social variety as in Sayers. Lugg v Bunter.
Somewhere in the Allingham books, possibly repeated at the beginning of several, there's some discussion about Campion not using his title. It's not snobbery in the Allingham books, it's inverted snobbery, and that grates equally. I haven't read many, but I knew Campion had given up his titles.
(The Elizabeth George Inspector Lynley and the Martha Grimes Richard Jury and Melrose Plant books remind me of Allingham - they all get their milieus slightly off which makes their characters, however well drawn, ring false.)
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Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat
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Bibaculus
Shipmate
# 18528
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Posted
While we are on anachronisms in historical whodunnits, does anyone remember the Cadfael novels, wildly popular in the 80s, sunk without trace now? They concerned a monk of Shrewsbury Abbey during the reign of King Stephen, but the attitudes were pure mid 20th century sherry drinking Anglican spinster (which is what I presume the author was).
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A jumped up pantry boy who never knew his place
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venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...:
It's not snobbery in the Allingham books, it's inverted snobbery, and that grates equally.
Sounds like heads I win, tails you lose.
Writing about a society in which there are social differences (and which isn't?) the books are bound to reflect that.
The eccentricity of Allingham's different milieux is her principal charm.
"Spinster" could well be regarded as sexist I'd have thought.
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Man was made for joy and woe;
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Thro' the world we safely go.
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Curiosity killed ...
Ship's Mug
# 11770
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Posted
My impressions of the Allingham books, and it's ages since I read one, were that Lugg's working class credentials were celebrated a little too much. I read a few as I've read reviews that praised Allingham's experimentation with the form so revisited her over the years, but I've never wanted to read more about Campion or Lugg as I didn't actually engage with them as characters in the way that I engaged with Wimsey and Vane.
And yes, Biblacus, the Cadfael series were fun, but odd - lots of interesting well-researched historical detail but anachronistic attitudes, similar to Heyer. Peters/Pargeter wrote some contemporary mystery stories which had the same attitudes.
(btw, I just checked in Chambers: I know it's milieux in French, but thought we anglicised it to milieus in English, like beaus. It turns out both milieux and milieus are OK in English and my spellcheck prefers milieus.)
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Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat
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venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...:
My impressions of the Allingham books, and it's ages since I read one, were that Lugg's working class credentials were celebrated a little too much.
My feelings as well. I can't make up my mind whether that's because I'm a snob or because it's patronizing.
I had my doubts about the plural of mileu as I typed. Thanks.
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Man was made for joy and woe;
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Thro' the world we safely go.
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Firenze
Ordinary decent pagan
# 619
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
quote:
Originally posted by Jane R:
The only reason why the class system is not so obtrusive in Allingham's books is because she hardly ever mentions it! Albert Campion is the son of a duke who marries an Earl's sister - you don't get much more snobbish than that.
If he's the son of a duke he'd be Lord Albert Campion and he never uses the title. That's not snobbery.
It's revealed somewhere that Albert's real name is Rudolph and it's hinted in various places that his family is Very Grand indeed. (I believe Allingham based him on the then Duke of York, later George VI).
[ 06. February 2016, 13:04: Message edited by: Firenze ]
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Curiosity killed ...
Ship's Mug
# 11770
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Posted
There is a 1781 painting in Tate Britain entitled The Death of Major Peirson an placing it in a battle in St Helier, Jersey, with a prominent black soldier in the foreground, fighting with the redcoats under the Union Jack. I knew this painting existed as I grew up with a print of it.
I think we underestimate how many black people were around, particularly in the port areas.
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Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat
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Trudy Scrumptious
BBE Shieldmaiden
# 5647
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Posted
I think there are ways in which a modern writer of historical fiction can accurately reflect the views and attitudes of the time while making clear that they ARE the views of characters from that time, not views shared by the author. You can have one character who questions the assumed racism or sexism of his or her society, or at least is made to feel uneasy by it. Or you can portray your person-of-colour character as a perfectly normal human being in sharp contrast to the racist assumptions the other characters make about him or her. It's not as if your only choice is either to be racist or to be historically inaccurate.
It's the same with the role of women as it is with racism in historical fiction. It's a common trope of lazy historical fiction writers to have, for example, the heroine be a strong-willed, independent (probably red-headed) lass who resists the loveless marriage her family arranges for her because she just wants to be free to find a man she truly loves. While there were no doubt the odd few women like that at all ages in the past (some even with red hair), it would be far more interesting to write about a strong-willed young woman who accepts that an arranged marriage is totally normal for someone of her class in the time period she lives in, and see where the story takes her from there.
DLS did better on women's issues than she did on racism/racist stereotypes, presumably because she was a woman who had made education and career choices that were unusual for her time, so she understood those struggles from the inside out. On racist stereotypes I think the best we can give her is "not nearly as bad as some of her contemporaries."
I don't find her snobbish about class -- her digs at the class system seem directed upwards (at the Denvers and their social circle, for example) far more often than downward.
As for LGBT issues, again, she was a woman of her time, but I love the (both dead when the story starts) lesbian couple in Unnatural Death and the way the old man who used to work for them talks obliquely about their sexuality ("the Good Lord makes a few that way for His own purposes," he says, or words to that effect). And I've always assumed Eiluned and Sylvia were lesbians and perhaps a couple.
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Books and things.
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venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Trudy Scrumptious:
It's a common trope of lazy historical fiction writers to have, for example, the heroine be a strong-willed, independent ... lass who resists the loveless marriage her family arranges for her
Richardson's [EMAIL]Clarissa[/EMAIL] ?
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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
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Penny S
Shipmate
# 14768
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Posted
Spotted something, totally uncommented on, in the TV programme "Back in Time for the Weekend", in which the 1950s film clips were largely very very white. In a dance hall, in the background, one Indian man sitting by the wall.
The historical research for the programme led my friend and I to be shouting at the screen - "that's not right"!
It's obviously not an easy thing to get history right.
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Firenze
Ordinary decent pagan
# 619
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Posted
Yes, well. But then Clarissa feels obliged to die from Loss of Honour, thereby validating the view that woman's value inheres in her virginity.
Posts: 17302 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Jun 2001
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venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
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Posted
Maybe Clarissa doesn't want to just to be the notch on some man's bedpost.
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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
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Firenze
Ordinary decent pagan
# 619
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Posted
I think this would be better demonstrated by going on to lead a long and productive life rather than taking to your bed and going That's it I'm over (despite being young and healthy) I'll just spend the next couple of hundred pages designing my coffin and guilt tripping everyone.
Female masochist or what?
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georgiaboy
Shipmate
# 11294
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Dafyd:
St Maurice was always depicted as being black, and had a cult which was widespread at least across the Holy Roman Empire. And one of the three kings was always shown as black (is it Melchior?)
No, it is Balthazar who is black, representing Africa. He shows up in rhymes as 'black Balthazar.' Sayres comments on this in her director's notes in 'The Man Born to be King.' She says (I may not be quoting correctly) 'the magi remain kings, three in number, and Balthazar is black, as every child knows.' She follows tradition by making Caspar elderly and European, Melchior middle-aged and Asian, and Balthazar young and Ethiopean. (I think I've got that right.)
It's quite distancing in time to realize that she could say 'as every child knows,' when now many children wouldn't know any of the story at all, much less who and what the kings were!
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You can't retire from a calling.
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Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061
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Posted
At my church they have a Three Kings procession for Epiphany every year. And every year I have been annoyed by the vanilla Hollywoodness of the kings. They look like refugees from a downmarket Peter Jackson film. Do kings like greige and brown, really?
So this year I offered to do it for them, right. (I fully expect the offer to be ignored.) Balthasar shall have kente cloth vestments, the only time when these would be welcome in our church. Melchior shall be very King and I, silk pantaloons and gold embroidery, although I doubt anyone playing the role will dare to go shirtless in January. Gaspar shall be the true European King, the ball and scepter and crown and ermine.
The kings (in our procession) each have an attendant, and so Balthasar may have his slave carry an un-PC leopardskin footstool, while Melchior's can carry a bamboo fan. Gaspar's page shall carry a broadsword and shield.
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venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Firenze:
I think this would be better demonstrated by going on to lead a long and productive life rather than taking to your bed and going That's it I'm over (despite being young and healthy) I'll just spend the next couple of hundred pages designing my coffin and guilt tripping everyone.
Female masochist or what?
Perhaps she didn't want to be raped.
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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
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venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
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Posted
Not quite sure why on earth I mentioned Clarissa. Best to ignore me. Sorry.
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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
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Curiosity killed ...
Ship's Mug
# 11770
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Posted
A further comment on the complaint about anachronism of black faces in fictionalisations of historic Britain.
There are several portraits of black people in contemporary paintings from Tate Britain from 1700-1800, enough for there to be a leaflet discussing it, referenced in discussion on the last painting. This lot I saw in a 45 minute saunter through the British galleries yesterday:
- Punch or May Day 1829 - black footman on the carriage, young black child front left
- The Death of Major Peirson (1783) where the black character is identified as the Major's servant Pompey and taking a major part in the battle - the actual portrait of Pompey was painted from another servant known to the artist.
- The 1827 portrait of a man thought to be Ira Frederick Aldridge an actor on the London stage most famous for his role as Othello.
Before that there is evidence that Phoenician traders reached Britain during the Iron Age and the Crusades were a conduit for the movement of people. Both happened well before the start of the slave trade in the 15th Century or the East India Company was founded in 1600.
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Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat
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Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
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Posted
Did not think I would be searching for this so soon. I picked up that a portrait of the death of Nelson has a black person in it. The painting by Daniel Maclise is clearly it. Go to Nelson and then move towards the top left and you will see the individual.
There is a whitening of British society which does not hold against the historic record. It is not mixed by today's standards but it was not 100% white either.
Jengie
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"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge
Back to my blog
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Penny S
Shipmate
# 14768
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Posted
Pity that Major Peirson's servant didn't get to have a proper name, but one of those, like Scipio, awarded by masters. And that the black chap on Nelson's ship isn't wearing the gear that the other sailors are.
The Phoenicians were presumably more Canaanite than African (I found a DNA study which showed this - Phoenician origins) and would not have stayed around much as their purpose was to trade, going back with the precious tin.
The Crusades were also dealing with the same part of the world, rather than sub-Saharan Africa.
Evidence like the art work, and QE1's remark about too many black faces in London, are much more convincing.
It's a pity that church records of baptisms and marriages after the slave's enfranchisment didn't note information about people's origins, from the point of view of knowing what was going on (I've heard this mentioned in some programme ages back), but, on the other hand, hooray that the vicars and rectors didn't think it was relevant.
I was in Herne Hill's Carnegie Library, currently under threat because Greenwich Leisure has asked Lambeth for it as a gym, and took a look at their Black Interest shelves, hoping for some book on the subject of early presence. Quality novels by black authors. Romantic fiction with black protagonists. Biographies. Not a shred of anything serious on history. Maybe they were all out.
[ 07. February 2016, 13:54: Message edited by: Penny S ]
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Net Spinster
Shipmate
# 16058
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Posted
18th century Britain certainly had Black people and a few of relatively high standing.
Portrait of Lady Elizabeth Murray (1760-1825) and her cousin Dido Elizabeth Belle Lindsay (1761-1804)
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Dido_Elizabeth_Belle.jpg
Dido was the recognized illegitimate child of a nobleman and seemed to have been treated as such (provided for but not brought into society) though care was taken, because her mother had been a slave or former slave, that she not be considered a slave legally.
BTW for anachronistic references, Scott in Ivanhoe's preface gives an excuse for having Black slaves (those of Brian de Bois-Guilbert) in England during the time of Richard III (and Robin Hood).
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Firenze
Ordinary decent pagan
# 619
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
Not quite sure why on earth I mentioned Clarissa. Best to ignore me. Sorry.
I think you were mistakenly placing her in the anachronistic trope of the 'feisty heroine'. Whereas she was totally and depressingly of her time, and its conception of Female Virtue.
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Penny S
Shipmate
# 14768
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Posted
That would be Richard I, wouldn't it?
I have downloaded and searched Ivanhoe, (Gutenberg, presumably PD) and found, in the Note to Chapter 2, where Scott comments on arguments about BoisGuilbert's black slaves, excusing himself on the probability that the Templars did bring such people over. He also includes this.
quote:
Besides, there is an instance in romance.
John of Rampayne, an excellent juggler and minstrel, undertook to effect the escape of one Audulf de Bracy, by presenting himself in disguise at the court of the king, where he was confined. For this purpose, "he stained his hair and his whole body entirely as black as jet, so that nothing was white but his teeth" and succeeded in imposing himself on the king, as an ethiopian minstrel. He effected, by stratagem, the escape of the prisoner. Negroes, therefore, must have been known in England in the dark ages. (dissertation on Romance and Mistrelsy, prefixed to Ritson's Ancient Metrical Romances, p clxxxvii)
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basso
Ship’s Crypt Keeper
# 4228
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...:
The Elizabeth George Inspector Lynley and the Martha Grimes Richard Jury and Melrose Plant books remind me of Allingham - they all get their milieus slightly off which makes their characters, however well drawn, ring false.
Both of those writers are American. Perhaps not surprising that they get things slightly wrong.
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Jane R
Shipmate
# 331
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Posted
venbede: quote:
If he's the son of a duke he'd be Lord Albert Campion and he never uses the title. That's not snobbery.
No, he doesn't use his title, but as Curiosity Killed says that's inverted snobbery (which can be just as bad as the ordinary common-or-garden type of snobbery). He can put the 'My family have owned this country since we won the Battle of Hastings' manner on with the best of them. Wasn't there one book where he posed as royalty? And most (if not all) of his friends are upper class.
Don't get me wrong, I do like Allingham, but she is no more immune to the class system than Sayers is. I think the reason why it's not so noticeable in Allingham is because she doesn't take it to bits and analyse it. It's just there.
Posts: 3958 | From: Jorvik | Registered: May 2001
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Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061
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Posted
It's this feature that is so opaque to Americans. I forget where it was on SoF where I mentioned Anthony Trollope visiting the US in the 1850s, and being annoyed by how people just weren't deferential. They acted like they were as good as he was, even if they were carrying his baggage. And that's another little fun point in Sayers, when she rags on Americans. Remember in Whose Body? when the rich American is accidentally persuaded to contribute to the restoration of a church?
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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Bibaculus:
While we are on anachronisms in historical whodunnits, does anyone remember the Cadfael novels, wildly popular in the 80s, sunk without trace now?
Of course - and who could possibly forget Derek Jacobi in the TV adaptation?
Cadfael has the whole gamut of nice middle-class mid-20th century attitudes, and is effectively parachuted into an environment which is middle ages-lite. Peters needed to keep the middle ages toned down a bit to make the stories understandable by her audience, and needed to have a hero with which the reader would sympathise. It's hard to do that with a hero who has historically normal attitudes that would be considered beyond the pale in today's world.
(Phillipa Gregory doesn't claim her Tudor bonkbusters are accurate, either.)
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Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061
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Posted
It wasn't that that annoyed me, so much as the way she sank into standard plots. All familiar ingredients, the couple severed by circumstances that would be together by the end, the Interesting Social Dilemma to be resolved by Brother C. It is the great peril of the series, and I will say that the Harriet complication allowed Sayers to completely evade it. Every single one of the Wimsey books is different from the other -- no cookie-cutter storytelling here.
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Lyda*Rose
Ship's broken porthole
# 4544
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
It's this feature that is so opaque to Americans. I forget where it was on SoF where I mentioned Anthony Trollope visiting the US in the 1850s, and being annoyed by how people just weren't deferential. They acted like they were as good as he was, even if they were carrying his baggage. And that's another little fun point in Sayers, when she rags on Americans. Remember in Whose Body? when the rich American is accidentally persuaded to contribute to the restoration of a church?
I remember reading part of Frances Trollope's Domestic Manners of the Americans where she was dismayed by the inability to get good help. Not deferential and those American girls would go to work long enough to earn the money for a nice, new outfit, then put in their notice. Poor Frances! ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
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"Dear God, whose name I do not know - thank you for my life. I forgot how BIG... thank you. Thank you for my life." ~from Joe Vs the Volcano
Posts: 21377 | From: CA | Registered: May 2003
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Penny S
Shipmate
# 14768
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Posted
Bully for the Americans! Though I suspect there are currently Americans who expect deference. Such as a certain golfing enthusiast who expects Scots to grovel, and accede to his whims.
Posts: 5833 | Registered: May 2009
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venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
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Posted
If only Mrs Trollope had bought a couple of slaves she could have had the same deference as white Americans expected.
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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
Posts: 3201 | From: An historic market town nestling in the folds of Surrey's rolling North Downs, | Registered: Sep 2011
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Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061
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Posted
It shows you how very much things have changed, from then to now. I am sure that even English aristocrats no longer expect deference from everyone around them. Certainly they all know that (unless they are the royals) they will get none from Americans. Do they get deference from the ordinary Englishman on the street?
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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page
Posts: 6378 | From: Washington DC | Registered: Mar 2014
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Bibaculus
Shipmate
# 18528
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Posted
I find Americans much more deferential than the surly Brits, certainly those in service occupations - on planes, in bars, etc. And not just those who are expecting a tip.
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A jumped up pantry boy who never knew his place
Posts: 257 | From: In bed. Mostly. When I can get away with it. | Registered: Dec 2015
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Penny S
Shipmate
# 14768
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Posted
I haven't met any, so am not sure what aristos would get from me. It would depend how much they would expect. In an inverse sort of way.
Probably the most likely person was an elderly man sitting at a table for 2 in a 1st class carriage on a northbound train when I was on my way to OU summer school. It was a carriage which allowed oiks to travel if the rest of the train was full by the payment of a nominal upgrade. No-one had chosen to occupy the seat opposite him, possibly misled by his rather scruffy appearance, but I noticed his beautifully polished quality leather footwear. I had heard this was how you could recognise the real toffs.
(Opposite us sat a man who looked vaguely familiar, with his feet up on the seat opposite, who sent his wife off to get the coffee, and began to gather a stream of admirers who praised his support for the miners. Unlike the elderly gentleman and me, he did not pay the nominal upgrade, but was a bona-fide 1st class passenger. Arthur Scargill, for it was he, the head of the NUM and fierce opponent of Mrs T, got off at Doncaster, with the man behind him, younger, and of military officer bearing, leaving as well - I suspected a spook.)
Neither of them had my deference, but AS garnered my contempt, for travelling 1st class as a trades union man, and putting his feet up, with his less noble shoes on, where others would sit.
There has been some puzzlement this last week, from some, as to why on earth one James Bingham wanted to be able to inherit his missing father's title and become Lord Lucan, a reminder that some of these people do things completely differently, in the process leaving the son of the murder victim with justice unsatisfied because of the way they stuck together around the man.
Deference hooey.
[ 09. February 2016, 13:14: Message edited by: Penny S ]
Posts: 5833 | Registered: May 2009
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Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061
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Posted
I'm reading London Fog, by Christine Corton, a kind of literary analysis. She discusses the Stevenson novel Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde, and points out how all of Dr. Jekyll's associates hang together. They do not tell the police (who are not Of Us) about Mr. Hyde, even when Mr. Hyde starts killing people. In other words, pulling together to protect the social group is more important than any other consideration. The Lord Lucan business fits right into this.
I don't think we do this in the US, not any more. There was a day when politicians or doctors would cover for each other, and you could quietly chase skirts or do drugs without much comeback.
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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page
Posts: 6378 | From: Washington DC | Registered: Mar 2014
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Jane R
Shipmate
# 331
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Posted
I'm not so sure about that, Brenda. Maybe it's not so common for people to connive at cover-ups for members of the same class or profession, but a lot of people would still be prepared to lie (at the very least) to protect other members of their family or a close friend.
Posts: 3958 | From: Jorvik | Registered: May 2001
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Curiosity killed ...
Ship's Mug
# 11770
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Posted
Well, I reckon that closing of ranks is pretty universal. Working with London teenagers with gang connections I get told that "snitches get stitches" pretty regularly.
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Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat
Posts: 13794 | From: outiside the outer ring road | Registered: Aug 2006
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Penny S
Shipmate
# 14768
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Posted
I think there's a difference between the closing of the ranks due to the expectation of harm, and that due to fellow feeling, or whatever drove the Lucan buddies. It's not only keeping quiet, in the latter case, but also actively aiding and abetting as accomplices after the act, without threat. (What threat? Aspinall's tigers?)
Posts: 5833 | Registered: May 2009
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Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061
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Posted
[loud screech of tires as topic is wrenched back on track] You can see Lord Peter doing this. In Bellona Club when the perp is allowed to take a revolver into the library, to the great distress of the club members. Even in Murder Must Advertise, when we men and advertising jocks must hang together, dash it. This is not presented as a miscarriage of justice. Sayers clearly feels, and intends us to feel, that it is the right thing to do.
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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page
Posts: 6378 | From: Washington DC | Registered: Mar 2014
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Bibaculus
Shipmate
# 18528
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Posted
Of course it is the right thing for chaps to stick by chaps. I said as much at my Masonic dinner just last night.
Seriously, that is part of the culture of the world in which Sayers was writing. We can now see how it led to the most dreadful things being hushed up (not least in the church), but it would have been seen as common decency in the 30s.
I have heard it suggested that if one wants to understand a previous era's mores one should not read the finest literature from that period, but the popular (and often forgotten) stuff. Like detective stories. Great literature is great literature because it is, in some measure, timeless. The popular stuff is always very much of its time.
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A jumped up pantry boy who never knew his place
Posts: 257 | From: In bed. Mostly. When I can get away with it. | Registered: Dec 2015
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Eirenist
Shipmate
# 13343
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Posted
The difference between Lord Peter's world and that of Lord Lucan (if we believe that the latter was not, in fact, presented by his peers with a bottle of whisky and a revolver), is that the perps in 'Murder' and 'Bellona' both received what would have been accepted at the time as their just deserts. Lucan, it is assumed, and the ecclesiastical transgressors, did not.
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'I think I think, therefore I think I am'
Posts: 486 | From: Darkest Metroland | Registered: Jan 2008
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Trudy Scrumptious
BBE Shieldmaiden
# 5647
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Posted
Yes, in Lord Peter's case, it's not "sticking by them" to cover up the crime as such; it's allowing them to receive what they would have had coming to them anyway under the justice system (the death penalty), but without the embarrassment of a public trial. In MMA, it's quite openly stated that this is done to spare the murderer's family the shame of a trial; Lord Peter allows the guilty man to walk into a trap and be murdered (and he agrees to it) rather than be tried for the murder he committed. In Unpleasantness it may be more a case of allowing the killer to take the dignified route out for his own sake, but both killers definitely end up dead.
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Books and things.
I lied. There are no things. Just books.
Posts: 7428 | From: Closer to Paris than I am to Vancouver | Registered: Mar 2004
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Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061
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Posted
But you see what this implies. "As long as we know that justice was done, nobody else needs to." There is a value to public trial, and justice being seen to be done. There is the deterrent value, of course. It is also good to know that the societal systems are working properly; that you don't get to murder with impunity. But all of this is lost if you quietly administer justice in the library of the Bellona Club.
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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page
Posts: 6378 | From: Washington DC | Registered: Mar 2014
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