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Source: (consider it) Thread: Purgatory: Thoughts on Jeremy Corbyn as Labour leader
George Spigot

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quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
quote:
Originally posted by George Spigot:
I honestly don't understand this position at all. Why would I vote for a party whose policys I don't agree with? Why would anybody?

Good luck with finding any party with policies you are completely in agreement with.
I'm not looking for a party who's policies I completely agree with. I'm asking why I would vote for a party whose policys I don't agree with.

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Alan Cresswell

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The answer is, you don't. Find someone else to vote for. That's democracy.

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Barnabas62
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With whose policies you'll only be able to agree in part. Which was my point.

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Barnabas62
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quote:
Originally posted by chris stiles:


So in the scenario where everything goes well, Labour only ever wins if they manage to reshape the debate - something they can't do if they are aping the current position of the Tories with a slight emphasis to the centre.

I think this overlooks the fact that the impact of economic globalisation and the power of multinational companies have already reshaped the debate conclusively. National governments don't have the same power over internal economic conditions that they once had. Any reshaping of the political debate, certainly over the next decade, has no option but to work within the new framework created by these realities. If you want to see what idealistic pissing against the wind does, look at Greece.

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GCabot
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quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:

Humiliating though the analogy may be, there are parallels with the Republican party in the US. It can't win a Presidential election without recovering the centre ground it has lost. But in order to do that, it would have to adopt more moderate, in their eyes more compromised, policies than its WASP grassroots want. So GOP members vote to select candidates who press their preferred (and in their eyes purist) right wing buttons.

I apologize in advance for the digression - although your general sentiment is correct, the idea that the GOP grassroots are WASP is not. The Episcopal Church may once have been the Republican Party at prayer, but that ship set sail a very long time ago. Furthermore, the modern WASP-equivalent "country club Republicans" would be the so-called Republican "establishment," not the grassroots. When people speak of grassroots, they are generally speaking of highly religious, deeply conservative, rural residents that live everywhere other than the wealthy, cosmopolitan metropolises on the coasts.

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Palimpsest
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There's an article by Anthony Lane in the New Yorker which explain Corbyn to Americans.

If your British you may find it amusing or painful. [Smile]

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George Spigot

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quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
With whose policies you'll only be able to agree in part. Which was my point.

So instead of voting for a party who I mostly agree with I should vote for a party I mostly disagree with? No that really doesn't make any sense.

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Touchstone
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quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:

People went into a pub and found that all that was available was Bud and Bud-lite. Given that choice, what's the point of Bud-lite? Many people would just turn around and decide they're not thirsty. Some would buy the Bud-lite simply because it has a red rose on the glass.

We saw what happened when another drink was offered. In Scotland we had the SNP saying things very different from the Tories, in England UKIP came in offering something different from the Tories. So, if Corbyn comes in and takes Bud-lite off the options and replaces it with a craft beer (I see from Google that Islington is home to a few micro-breweries producing a range of craft beers) he has given people a new choice. OK, so a lot of people would still want a G&T and the new craft beers are no more to their taste than the Bud-lite, or indeed the Bud.

Give people a choice in the ballot box. That way you'll have a better idea of what people want. It may not help Labour get back into government, but IMO it will help Parliament to better represent the people. [/QB]

To continue the pub analogy, landlords who stock a "dark hoppy craft beer with flavours of bitter chocolate, burnt toast and notes of horse manure" tend to find that that this is a very niche market, and given the choice most people prefer Bud. Which is why most pubs offer something in between, like Carling or John Smith's. (Pun intended)

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Alan Cresswell

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[response to George Spigot - x-post]

I'm not sure I understand. There is a party where you mostly agree with their policies, and other parties where you mostly disagree with their policies. Is that right?

And, you are wondering about who you should vote for? The obvious answer is the party you mostly agree with.

But, presumably there's some unspecified problem with voting for that party. Perhaps a particular policy you could never vote for that's part of the package of policies which you otherwise basically agree with. Which is a bit of dilemma, I admit.

Your options are, ISTM:
1. Join that party so as to try and influence policy and get the policy you dislike so much changed
2. Look at the other parties who don't hold your disliked policy, and vote for whichever one of them is the best fit to your opinions on the rest of their policies
3. Form a new political party that encompasses your views entirely, and see if enough people agree with you
4. Hold your nose and vote for your prefered party despite the one policy
5. Don't vote

[ 15. September 2015, 06:21: Message edited by: Alan Cresswell ]

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Ricardus
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quote:
Originally posted by Sarah G:

The point being that our economy will get to their [the Greeks'] level of shambolic, if John McDonnell gets his hands on it.

I repeat the question from the other thread. Surely the experience of Greece, by the IMF's own admission, demonstrates the failure of austerity measures?

(Unless you mean how they got into the mess in the first place - which was largely due to industrial scale corruption and an absence of basic bookkeeping.)

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Alan Cresswell

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quote:
Originally posted by Touchstone:
To continue the pub analogy, landlords who stock a "dark hoppy craft beer with flavours of bitter chocolate, burnt toast and notes of horse manure" tend to find that that this is a very niche market, and given the choice most people prefer Bud. Which is why most pubs offer something in between, like Carling or John Smith's. (Pun intended)

At the moment, we'll have to wait and find out what the new beer on offer is. But, IMO, Carling or John Smiths is only a marginal improvement on Bud. But, then again I went to a friends wedding once and got to the bar to find that the only beer they had was Heiniken (I think - something undrinkable like that) and when I asked about whisky they had Southern Comfort. I left the bar empty handed muttering something about "real ale and single malt whisky" - and a few minutes later spotted one of the bar staff slipping back in with a bottle of Glenmorangie [Big Grin] If that bar had a craft beer described as "dark hoppy with flavours of bitter chocolate, burnt toast and notes of horse manure" I'd have tried it.

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Touchstone
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I would also try such a beer - maybe just a half though.

Carling & JS do at least taste vaguely like beer, whereas Bud is just corn-flavoured fizzy pop.

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Barnabas62
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quote:
Originally posted by George Spigot:
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
With whose policies you'll only be able to agree in part. Which was my point.

So instead of voting for a party who I mostly agree with I should vote for a party I mostly disagree with? No that really doesn't make any sense.
No, that wasn't what I meant. If you always meant 'mostly agree' rather than 'agree' I misunderstood you. On policies it's always about degrees of agreement. Principles and values are another matter.

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George Spigot

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To make things clear. Corbyn looks like he may pull the Labour party away from the right wing. Therefore I'm now likely to vote Labour.

People seem to be saying that this will mean Labour will never win an election and will mean the Conservative party will stay in power.

This seems to suggest that I should either not vote or vote for the Conservatives or another blair style right wing party.

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Anglican't
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Have you ever thought that maybe most voters don't think like you do?
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alienfromzog

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quote:
Originally posted by Sarah G:
The point being that our economy will get to their level of shambolic, if John McDonnell gets his hands on it. I mean John McDonnell? Does the nation really want probably the most important job in the country, that can dramatically affect everyone else's lives, being given to an economic extremist lightweight, an IRA supporter (“bravery of the IRA”) whose interests run to “generally fermenting [sic] the overthrow of capitalism”?

Listening to the actually talented Shadow Foreign Secretary Hilary Benn repeatedly refuse to endorse his own Shadow Chancellor on the radio says it all.

I get a sick feeling to think Corbyn and McDonnell could be running the UK economy. I get seriously worried. Because it won't be the rich who'll suffer most when the economy falls off a cliff. It will be the ones who are least well off.

Right. The thing is, as I said on the other thread, this is completely ridiculous.

You are entitled to your own opinions but not your own facts.

There is a massive logic failure here.

Greece's problems in 2010:
Poor productivity
Inefficient tax-collecting system
Widespread economic corruption
Large debt accumulated due to poor governance and A Euro policy run to the benefit of the centre at the expense of the periphery.
Not having its own currency
DEBT OWED TO PRIVATE BANKS

Greece's problems in 2015:
DEBT TAKEN OVER BY EUROZONE COUNTRIES AND IMF
Enforced austerity resulting in an astounding Shrinking of the economy and a deflationary spiral
Less economic corruption and improved tax collection
A Euro policy run to the benefit of the centre at the expense of the periphery.
Mass unemployment.

The thing is, that undeniably, Greece has done an heroic job of achieving austerity as massive social cost and as predicted by anyone who's looked at the data, this made everything far worse.

This from Paul Krugman is a good place to start - just look at the chart to see how neo-liberal thinking is so much a part of the problem.

Now, let us get back to some facts. Between 2003-2008, Britain ran small deficits. There is an argument that the UK could (should?) have been more prudent. But, and this is vital:
1) The effect on the current deficit/debt situation would be negligible.
2) NO one - least of all Cameron/Osborne - were arguing this pre-2008
3) If you compare the national finances of the Conservative government 1979-1997 and Labour 1997-2008, there are very similar (There's an LSE paper on this if you're interested). BUT, The Tories had peak North Sea Oil and privatisation revenues. Whatever the rights and wrongs of privatisation (and for the record, I think some are right and some are wrong) you can only sell them once. If you strip out those two, the management of the public finances by the Tories was appalling.
4) Pre-crisis Britain had the lowest debt/GDP ratio in the G7
5) Pre-crisis Britain has a lower debt/GDP ratio than in 1997.

I'm gonna stop now there is so much more to be said about this but there is something vital that will be the most important factor over the next few years: Corbyn's economic position is not radical, Osborne's is.

Let me explain: As Simon Wren-Lewis (Oxford economics professor) has pointed out. Corbyn's anti-austerity position is mainstream macro economics - much in line with the overall consensus of economists* Moreover if you read Martin Wolf (Senior economic reporter for the FT) he is unbelievably critical of Osborne. Not least because, as he points, out the UK economy is far weaker in 2015 than it was in 2010.

Osborne's 'expansionary contraction' is the radical position and its this that turned Greece's 2010 crisis into an absolute disaster.

The next few years are going to be interesting. The UK economy is gonna to slow and possibly go into recession. I say this because of the fiscal tightening done again this year, falling exports, China slowing and our overall weak position.

The Tories are going to be very divided over Cameron's ridiculous EU referendum.

The key is, in this crisis moment, will Labour cut-through? Will they be able to communicate the simple fact that you cannot cut your way to prosperity? It is only by investing.

I really don't know the answer to this. I think that there is a huge battle with the mainstream media and the false economic narratives that they've been peddling for the past 5 years. What Simon Wren-Lewis calls Mediamacro

BTW, Wren-Lewis has given fair analysis of Corbyn's economic policies (from his leadership campaign) pointing out strengths and weaknesses.

For me, I think what Corbyn needs to do is appoint a high-profile and well credentialed economic adviser (like Paul Krugman) and use that to take down Osborne's myths. It is a big argument to win - the received wisdom is very well established. However, I think, over time it is very achievable as the data is all there and Krugman, Stiglitz, Wren-Lewis etc. have been writing blogs and articles for sometime that are very accessible.

Corbyn wasn't my first choice but then no-one was. Time will tell.

AFZ

*Don't confuse and 'economist' with a 'city economist'

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George Spigot

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quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:
Have you ever thought that maybe most voters don't think like you do?

Yes.

Sorry. It's probably me. I think I must be talking at completely cross purposes or I'm just very bad at explaining myself.

[ 15. September 2015, 07:57: Message edited by: George Spigot ]

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George Spigot

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I found this interesting.

Guardian piece about Corbin being an opposition leader.

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alienfromzog

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quote:
Originally posted by George Spigot:
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:
Have you ever thought that maybe most voters don't think like you do?

Yes.

Sorry. It's probably me. I think I must be talking at completely cross purposes or I'm just very bad at explaining myself.

Probably not.

There are a lot of people like you George who will come back to voting Labour under Corbyn.

However in terms of electoral success this is probably not the key:

In some marginals, the non-voters voting Labour could be enough to win but it's unlikely. (No more unlikely than the SNP Tsunami to be fair but...)

In most marginals Labour must win votes from the Tories - the conventional wisdom is that Corbyn will not be able to do this.

I don't think the conventional wisdom is right because there is a huge argument to be won on economics.

So I think it CAN be done.

Whether it will be done? Honestly, if you forced me to give an answer I would say no.

But - and I am a Labour party member who didn't vote Corbyn - I am gonna bloody try. We have a case to make and it's vital to do so. In the middle of this term in office the Tories will have a crisis and we need to be ready - making the arguments now and then to try to cut through.

AFZ

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Barnabas62
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AFZ

I think the wheels came off classic Keynesian economics because in general governments followed the ideas in the down cycle but not in the up cycle. But I agree the economic argument that Osborne levels of austerity will probably be counter productive.

I read Corbyn to be arguing both anti-austerity and more progressive taxation (take more from the rich and from business to alleviate poverty). The rubber hits the road on the latter if the policies persuade e.g. Nissan to move production away from Sunderland and out of the UK. That's the sort of reality globalisation and multinational behaviour compel political parties to take note of these days.

There is a lot to be said in favour of appointing an economically literate adviser. Would the new Shadow Chancellor listen? Perhaps his current public image disguises his real worth? I guess we're going to find out.

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chris stiles
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quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
quote:
Originally posted by chris stiles:


So in the scenario where everything goes well, Labour only ever wins if they manage to reshape the debate - something they can't do if they are aping the current position of the Tories with a slight emphasis to the centre.

I think this overlooks the fact that the impact of economic globalisation and the power of multinational companies have already reshaped the debate conclusively. National governments don't have the same power over internal economic conditions that they once had. Any reshaping of the political debate, certainly over the next decade, has no option but to work within the new framework created by these realities. If you want to see what idealistic pissing against the wind does, look at Greece.
I think you are shifting the goalposts slightly here - after all, Syriza actually came to power [and your original post was on whether JC could win an election - for the record I don't think he can either, but then I'm not sure he'll actually contest one]

I think you are also misunderstanding the sorts of shifts I am referring to - the problems facing the UK aren't the same as that of a bankrupt country without it's own currency trying to face down ordo-liberalism. Whilst there is consensus on a lot of things globally, there is also a particularly UK (and European) centric focus on immediate deficit reduction which isn't reflected elsewhere (the US running a far loose monetary policy as an example).

Neo-liberalism isn't an absolute constraint either - the 'markets' are generally very much against the UK leaving the EU - yet the media reflects the opinion that this is perfectly possible politically.

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alienfromzog

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Barnabas,

I completely agree. Which is why I'm a little to the right of Corbyn.

I think your point about Keynesian economics has been misunderstood to mean 'Keynes was wrong' when what it actually means is that governments took economic theories to mean what they wanted it to mean in order to do what they wanted.

I happen to think that 2008-2015 vindicates the great man somewhat!

Moreover, the realities of a globalised economy have meant that big business hold governments to ransom (which is why we should oppose TTIP*) but I think in the UK, the government can call business's bluff - Britain is the 6th largest economy in the world for a start. Specifically in the case of Nissan, Sunderland is the world's most efficient car factory so I think it's pretty safe for now... YMMV

AFZ

*Free trade can be a force for good but TTIP contains provision for international tribunals above nation legal systems that corporations can use to challenge government decisions they don't like and this is ABHORRENT.

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Barnabas62
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Fair points chris. The Greek throwaway aside is something I now regret!

My main point was the impact of globalisation and multinationals on the conduct of national economic policies. AFZ has made some good general points about Osborne levels of austerity and Doublethink makes a good case for at least trying to reshape the economic debate. I'd like to think that some progress might be made that way. Jeremy Corbyn doesn't look to me, certainly not yet, like the man to lead that. he's having trouble already with his MPs over some of the other flags he's run up the pole.

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L'organist
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My thoughts on Mr Corbyn's election as leader? Complicated. I'll watch how he does in his first week or so before forming a judgment.

At the moment I find his selection of MPs for posts in the shadow cabinet disspiriting, particularly the 'soft' jobs-for-the-girls - but then hardly unexpected from someone who thought the problem of sexual harrassment would best be ameliorated by the re-creation of Ladies Only compartments.

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Barnabas62
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@GCabot

No apology required. Your criticism is entirely justified. I should have said GOP grass roots.

I didn't have a very good day yesterday on this thread!

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Luigi
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quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
AFZ

I think the wheels came off classic Keynesian economics because in general governments followed the ideas in the down cycle but not in the up cycle. But I agree the economic argument that Osborne levels of austerity will probably be counter productive.

I read Corbyn to be arguing both anti-austerity and more progressive taxation (take more from the rich and from business to alleviate poverty). The rubber hits the road on the latter if the policies persuade e.g. Nissan to move production away from Sunderland and out of the UK. That's the sort of reality globalisation and multinational behaviour compel political parties to take note of these days.

There is a lot to be said in favour of appointing an economically literate adviser. Would the new Shadow Chancellor listen? Perhaps his current public image disguises his real worth? I guess we're going to find out.

Barnabus - very much agree with you re how constrained national governments are by global pressures.

I very much am in the same position as AFZ - i.e. have read the same economists and found them time after time convincing and right.

I may well be misunderstanding you, but your comments about following Keynes in the upcyle as well as the downcycle are I think largely based on a myth that even many of the left seem to have bought.

The UK ran only 7 surpluses in the past 50 years and yet our debt has come down as % of GDP massively in that time. Indeed there has even been a paper by the IMF arguing that the cost of deficit reduction is probably larger than the cost of getting our debt down. Lots of countries have enough head room to keep their approach to national debt closer to paying the mortgage through interest only payments.

Put simply, I think Keynes has massively been vindicated over the past 8 years and yet the British public still buy the myth that the deficit is the only indicator that matters.

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alienfromzog

Ship's Alien
# 5327

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quote:
Originally posted by Luigi:
Put simply, I think Keynes has massively been vindicated over the past 8 years and yet the British public still buy the myth that the deficit is the only indicator that matters.

Precisely. The one thing that makes me positive about Corbyn's Labour is a willingness to argue this point. If he does it well, if it breaks through to the public consciousness then all bets are off and we will see a massive change in the political landscape.

IF.

AFZ

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[Sen. D.P.Moynihan]

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Posts: 2150 | From: Zog, obviously! Straight past Alpha Centauri, 2nd planet on the left... | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Wet Kipper
Circus Runaway
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quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
hardly unexpected from someone who thought the problem of sexual harrassment would best be ameliorated by the re-creation of Ladies Only compartments.

and from the Corbyn policy website


quote:
Consultation on public transport

Some women have raised with me that a solution to the rise in assault and harassment on public transport could be to introduce women only carriages. My intention would be to make public transport safer for everyone from the train platform, to the bus stop to on the mode of transport itself.
However, I would consult with women and open it up to hear their views on whether women-only carriages would be welcome - and also if piloting this at times and modes of transport where harassment is reported most frequently would be of interest.

I don't see how he said that women only carrages would be the best way to solve the problem

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- insert randomly chosen, potentially Deep and Meaningful™ song lyrics here -

Posts: 9841 | From: further up the Hill | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged
hatless

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# 3365

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quote:
Originally posted by alienfromzog:
quote:
Originally posted by Luigi:
Put simply, I think Keynes has massively been vindicated over the past 8 years and yet the British public still buy the myth that the deficit is the only indicator that matters.

Precisely. The one thing that makes me positive about Corbyn's Labour is a willingness to argue this point. If he does it well, if it breaks through to the public consciousness then all bets are off and we will see a massive change in the political landscape.

IF.

AFZ

He will have to overcome a bit of human psychology.

It seems that people readily believe misfortune to be the result of wickedness, which must be paid for by suffering punishment. So plagues, defeats, sickness and disasters are seen as judgements on individuals or peoples, who must then suffer. Think Ninevah, think Job. We are deep in this myth. We had it too good, and now we must pay. It's bad economics, but it's great collective psychology. People voted Tory because they promised pain.

Jeremy Corbyn is the liberal preacher to Osborne's repent or be damned. He has to persuade us that God is kind and gracious, that the market does not seek to crush us, but to work through us. He needs to help us enlarge our sense of us.

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My crazy theology in novel form

Posts: 4531 | From: Stinkers | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
Barnabas62
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Luigi

I don't think the upcycle downcycle thing was a myth pre-Thatcher. I'm old enough to remember "you've never had it so good". I think the pre-1980 stats will bear this out, but as always am happy to be proved wrong. Post 1980 deficit stats have more to do with the ascendance of Chicago-school economics (monetarism) and their application. Reducing the deficit and prudence kind of go hand in hand in the public conscience these days.

I think Keynes has indeed been vindicated. It's a tough educational job to move the public perception but there's much to be said for making that aim central to the economic policy platform of Labour in opposition. Because of other baggage, I'm pretty sceptical about Jeremy Corbyn's credibility in leading that battle. But time will tell, I guess.

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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?

Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
Barnabas62
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And from the US Presidential election thread, while thinking about economic policies, I offer us all this gem from Soror Magna

quote:
Originally posted by Soror Magna on the President thread:
quote:
Originally posted by ldjjd:
...
I'd nevertheless be interested in a reality-based, non-spin justification for the cruel conduct of the Repblicans.....

Easy peasy - the Republican economic rules are very, very simple. If you want rich people to work harder, you have to give them more money. If you want poor people to work harder, you have to give them less money.
Cross out Republican, insert Tory?

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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?

Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
Luigi
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Barnabus - I agree entirely with your second paragraph.

When you say:
quote:
I don't think the upcycle downcycle thing was a myth pre-Thatcher. I'm old enough to remember "you've never had it so good". I think the pre-1980 stats will bear this out, but as always am happy to be proved wrong. Post 1980 deficit stats have more to do with the ascendance of Chicago-school economics (monetarism) and their application. Reducing the deficit and prudence kind of go hand in hand in the public conscience these days.

I am not clear what you are getting at. Could you explain it in more detail. I don't think the deficit reduction myth was strong pre-1980s or for that matter in the 1980s / 1990s. After all Reagan pushed it right up and it was largely regarded as a non-issue.

My point was that in the last 8 years a myth has grown up based around the deficit.

Also I am not clear what you are getting at re the upcycle and downcycle. Or what you are referring to re the post 1980s deficit stats.

[ 15. September 2015, 15:24: Message edited by: Luigi ]

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Barnabas62
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Lungi

I was agreeing with you about the current deficit myth and reinforcing the understanding that Keynesianism was improperly applied pre 1980. The notion that Keynesianism had failed and governments should go the Chicago way was a different myth. My attempt to clarify clearly didn't work. Ah me, I seem doomed on this thread!

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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?

Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
Luigi
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Barnabus

Thanks - I am clearer! [Smile]

I realise that when trying to cover a great deal of ground and with phrases that mean a number of things to different people, it is very difficult to be all things to all people when writing something.

I am all too aware of how difficult it is to keep to the point and still communicate fully on threads like this. I certainly find it a challenge.

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Anglican't
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After Jeremy Corbyn turned up for a service at St Paul's Cathedral today wearing a mis-matched suit, unbuttoned shirt and, according to some reports, took a lunch bag intended for Veterans, I did wonder whether he is actually a Tory mole planted thirty years ago.
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984

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He was in a dark suit and tie, I am not sure why this constitutes a news story.

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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell

Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005  |  IP: Logged
Touchstone
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quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:
I did wonder whether he is actually a Tory mole planted thirty years ago.

Glad someone else said that first, I've been thinking it for while. Apparently he stood in "respectful silence" during the national anthem. Does he really need to hand the Daily Wail even more ammunition?

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Jez we did hand the next election to the Tories on a plate!

Posts: 163 | From: Somewhere west of Bristol | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
Karl: Liberal Backslider
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"according to some reports." - I'd love to know which. I've seen the picture; bloody hell you need to look closely to see his top button isn't done up.

Big, fat, hairy, fucking, deal.

I'm glad to note that he respectfully stood, but did not sing, during the Monarchist Anthem. Appropriate for a Republican; it's what I do if unfortunate enough to be in a place where the damned thing's sung. Do you not think that if he'd sung it, despite his republicanism, he'd have been pilloried for hypocrisy by the same voices currently getting at him for not singing? Course he would! Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

Gah. Breath of fresh air if you ask me, much needed change from the conventional, boring, political clones we've had for too long.

[ 15. September 2015, 19:09: Message edited by: Karl: Liberal Backslider ]

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Might as well ask the bloody cat.

Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Anglican't
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# 15292

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quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink.:
He was in a dark suit and tie, I am not sure why this constitutes a news story.

He wasn't in one suit: his jacket was dark blue but his trousers appeared to be black. He wore a tie but his top button was undone and the tie hung loose around his neck. Expecting wannabe Prime Ministers to dress properly for formal occasions shouldn't be a big deal, no doubt why it became a news story when he failed to do so.
Posts: 3613 | From: London, England | Registered: Nov 2009  |  IP: Logged
Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984

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Hmm, having seen the coverage of the privy council stuff I am guessing the choice of headlines was:

Hypocrite self-confessed republican actually sings GOD SAVE THE QUEEN ! So much for his self-righteous principles !
Or
Corbyn DOES NOT sing the national anthem, how completely disrespectful what do you expect for a self-confessed republican !

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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell

Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005  |  IP: Logged
Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984

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quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:
quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink.:
He was in a dark suit and tie, I am not sure why this constitutes a news story.

He wasn't in one suit: his jacket was dark blue but his trousers appeared to be black. He wore a tie but his top button was undone and the tie hung loose around his neck. Expecting wannabe Prime Ministers to dress properly for formal occasions shouldn't be a big deal, no doubt why it became a news story when he failed to do so.
If you judge people solely people by appearances, you become extremely easy to con.

Consider, Corbyn made a special effort to dress more formally for that service - as did the miltary officers attending. Cameron dressed exactly as he always did.

--------------------
All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell

Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005  |  IP: Logged
Karl: Liberal Backslider
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quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink.:
Hmm, having seen the coverage of the privy council stuff I am guessing the choice of headlines was:

Hypocrite self-confessed republican actually sings GOD SAVE THE QUEEN ! So much for his self-righteous principles !
Or
Corbyn DOES NOT sing the national anthem, how completely disrespectful what do you expect for a self-confessed republican !

Exactly.

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Might as well ask the bloody cat.

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quetzalcoatl
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# 16740

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I can't believe these pathetic comments about Corbyn's clothes. Good grief, where are we living, when are we living? It's like watching some black and white film with people in spats. Mind-numbing really.

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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.

Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011  |  IP: Logged
Karl: Liberal Backslider
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quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:
quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink.:
He was in a dark suit and tie, I am not sure why this constitutes a news story.

He wasn't in one suit: his jacket was dark blue but his trousers appeared to be black. He wore a tie but his top button was undone and the tie hung loose around his neck. Expecting wannabe Prime Ministers to dress properly for formal occasions shouldn't be a big deal, no doubt why it became a news story when he failed to do so.
Your original comment of "mismatched suit" and "unbuttoned shirt" made it sound like he turned up looking like he'd just spent the night on a mate's sofa after a fairly alcoholic party. In reality, he looks perfectly respectable in the pictures I've seen.

I'm far more concerned about what politicians seek to do than how they look.

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Might as well ask the bloody cat.

Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
quetzalcoatl
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# 16740

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When I read comments like this, I do think that this country is doomed, if it contains lots of people who worry about matching jackets and trousers and unbuttoned shirts. It's like a kind of intellectual and spiritual arthritis.

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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.

Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011  |  IP: Logged
Karl: Liberal Backslider
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# 76

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quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
I can't believe these pathetic comments about Corbyn's clothes. Good grief, where are we living, when are we living? It's like watching some black and white film with people in spats. Mind-numbing really.

I know. Depressing innit? Anything to deflect from the real issues facing the country, like people starving to death when they're sanctioned and being declared fit to work days before they die. But, look, top button undone!

I'm not fooled. You're not fooled. I just hope enough of the voting public aren't fooled.

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Might as well ask the bloody cat.

Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Anglican't
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quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
In reality, he looks perfectly respectable in the pictures I've seen.

Well, readers can judge for themselves.

quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
When I read comments like this, I do think that this country is doomed

Funnily enough, I rather think the country is doomed if we stop dressing properly.
Posts: 3613 | From: London, England | Registered: Nov 2009  |  IP: Logged
Doublethink.
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You can always trust a man in a nice suit to have your best interests at heart.

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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell

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George Spigot

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"Just look at his appearance. He's obviously unfit to rule the country" [Roll Eyes]

Prioritys

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C.S. Lewis's Head is just a tool for the Devil. (And you can quote me on that.) ~
Philip Purser Hallard
http://www.thoughtplay.com/infinitarian/gbsfatb.html

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George Spigot

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quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:
Funnily enough, I rather think the country is doomed if we stop dressing properly.

Are you being serious?

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C.S. Lewis's Head is just a tool for the Devil. (And you can quote me on that.) ~
Philip Purser Hallard
http://www.thoughtplay.com/infinitarian/gbsfatb.html

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