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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Purgatory: Thoughts on Jeremy Corbyn as Labour leader
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Anglican't
Shipmate
# 15292
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by George Spigot:
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:
Funnily enough, I rather think the country is doomed if we stop dressing properly.
Are you being serious?
Well I think that certain sartorial standards are important, yes.
Posts: 3613 | From: London, England | Registered: Nov 2009
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Touchstone
Shipmate
# 3560
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Posted
I couldn't give a toss about his appearance, but when you attend a solemn service to commemorate people who gave their lives to save this country and by extension civilisation, you join in with the ceremonies or you stay away, and that means - at a bare minimum - singing the fracking national anthem. I'm no great monarchist myself, but this was not a place to air his arrested-development polytechnic student political hangups, it a was a place to show some respect for people who did more for this country than he ever has or will.
I was unlikely to vote for Corbyn before, I'm sure as hell not going to now.
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Jez we did hand the next election to the Tories on a plate!
Posts: 163 | From: Somewhere west of Bristol | Registered: Nov 2002
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
[crosspost] So do I, but I would go for clean, apparently undamaged, not indecent, and free of offensive slogans.
[ 15. September 2015, 19:46: Message edited by: Doublethink. ]
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Touchstone:
I couldn't give a toss about his appearance, but when you attend a solemn service to commemorate people who gave their lives to save this country and by extension civilisation, you join in with the ceremonies or you stay away, and that means - at a bare minimum - singing the fracking national anthem. I'm no great monarchist myself, but this was not a place to air his arrested-development polytechnic student political hangups, it a was a place to show some respect for people who did more for this country than he ever has or will.
I was unlikely to vote for Corbyn before, I'm sure as hell not going to now.
Whereas I question the appropriateness of arranging the singing of a national anthem in a church service at all. I am not wildly impressed when people wear weapons into a church either.
[ 15. September 2015, 19:49: Message edited by: Doublethink. ]
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
I expect the tabloids tomorrow will be full of unbuttoned shirts and not singing the anthem. I suppose it's symbolic of a cultural divide really.
Hope against depression - I mean, that this obsession with form over content depresses the hell out of me. Parts of British culture are rancid.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Touchstone
Shipmate
# 3560
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Posted
Both are entirely appropriate. Fascism wasn't defeated by people quoting the beatitudes at Hitler, and the vast majority of the people being commemorated would have sung "God save the King" with pride.
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Jez we did hand the next election to the Tories on a plate!
Posts: 163 | From: Somewhere west of Bristol | Registered: Nov 2002
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
Its a church not a victory parade, there are other places you can do those things. Though possibly this is a debate for a different thread.
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:
It's not an either / or. You can be a good socialist and dress properly. It can be done.
Not a terribly recent photo ....
I am guessing you regret the passing of the bowler hat too ? (Though I have to admit I rather like hats and wish people wore them more often.)
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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Humble Servant
Shipmate
# 18391
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Touchstone:
Both are entirely appropriate. Fascism wasn't defeated by people quoting the beatitudes at Hitler,
It was not, but had it been, then we might not have had so many wars since.
Posts: 241 | Registered: Apr 2015
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
It's bad enough that our "national" anthem is in fact a monarchist ditty. It's absolutely fucking ridiculous when people get upset about you not singing words that as a republican you cannot possibly mean.
I don't think the monarchists have the slightest idea, nor do I imagine they care, just how offensive it is to be told that your "national" anthem is this rancid little piece of sycophantic jingoistic shite.
Or how much of a compromise and a concession to other people it is to even stand for it.
[ 15. September 2015, 20:13: Message edited by: Karl: Liberal Backslider ]
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
I suspect that your more recent photo is still from before I made it to secondary school !
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
Incidently, when someone states 'unbuttoned shirt' I assume they mean something like this.
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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Arethosemyfeet
Shipmate
# 17047
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Touchstone:
I couldn't give a toss about his appearance, but when you attend a solemn service to commemorate people who gave their lives to save this country and by extension civilisation, you join in with the ceremonies or you stay away, and that means - at a bare minimum - singing the fracking national anthem. I'm no great monarchist myself, but this was not a place to air his arrested-development polytechnic student political hangups, it a was a place to show some respect for people who did more for this country than he ever has or will.
I was unlikely to vote for Corbyn before, I'm sure as hell not going to now.
Silence is far more respectful than mouthing along to a sung prayer to a God he doesn't believe in about an institution he does not support. Since when is lying through your teeth an act of respect?
Posts: 2933 | From: Hebrides | Registered: Apr 2012
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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:
Expecting wannabe Prime Ministers to dress properly for formal occasions shouldn't be a big deal, no doubt why it became a news story when he failed to do so.
Gordon Brown was notorious for turning up to black and white tie dinners in a lounge suit, and he has been Prime Minister.
It's all in aid of making a political point. Neither Mr. Brown nor Mr. Corbyn is short of money - both can easily afford to buy the proper clothing, but they seem to see it as some kind of betrayal of socialist principles to wear the posh man's clothes.
And it's a load of claptrap. My "normal attire" is a pair of jeans and a t-shirt. This is what I wear to work, and it's what I usually wear to church. If someone's getting married, I put on a suit, or morning dress (and I button my clothes up properly!) It is only courteous.
Whereas Corbyn, slobbing around with his shirt undone like a fourth-former having a crafty fag behind the bike sheds, is just rude.
Posts: 5026 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2013
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
"Slobbing around" is absolutely nothing like how he looked.
Again, making up shit to attack the man. If it hadn't been pointed out, I'd not even have noticed the top button being undone. Have you lot really got nothing more important to be concerned about?
[ 15. September 2015, 20:54: Message edited by: Karl: Liberal Backslider ]
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink.:
Incidently, when someone states 'unbuttoned shirt' I assume they mean something like this.
Yes. And that's the sort of image they're trying to put in your mind. Playing the man instead of the ball.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
My "normal attire" is a pair of jeans and a t-shirt. This is what I wear to work, and it's what I usually wear to church. If someone's getting married, I put on a suit, or morning dress (and I button my clothes up properly!) It is only courteous.
Whereas Corbyn, slobbing around with his shirt undone like a fourth-former having a crafty fag behind the bike sheds, is just rude.
Well, some people would say that wearing jeans and a t-shirt to church is rude! But we all have our own standards, and by Mr Corbyn's standards, his outfit for the service was smart. He wasn't Mr Dapper, but he'd made an effort. It looked all right to me, anyway.
BTW, did Mr Corbyn sing any of the 'normal' hymns, or was he silent throughout the whole service?
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
My reservations about Jeremy Corbyn are nothing to do with his inappropriately casual attire (it's true that he'd never get into the Members' Enclosure at any racecourse dressed as described) or his attitude to paramilitaries, past and present (which are no better or worse than those of many parliamentarians) but that he has a long record of voting against the Party Line. He gives me no problem on the policy front but it gives the Labour Whips one hell of a job getting the vote out to support a party led by a someone who didn't see party discipline as important when he was a backbencher.
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
Incidentally, when I got married I tried to make it known I didn't want people to go out of their way to be conventionally "smart" seeing as I had no intention of doing so and would be wearing a weskit and collarless shirt. Most of them did anyway. I didn't find it "courteous" or "discourteous" - it's just clothes. Way too much importance attached to something so meaningless.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
Really the answer to comments about Corbyn's appearance ought to be two words: Boris Johnson
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink.:
Really the answer to comments about Corbyn's appearance ought to be two words: Boris Johnson
Ah, ah, but he's a lovable buffoon, donchaknow, he doesn't mean any disrespect by it; he's one of us.
Pass the champers, old thing.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
The media are so unoriginal. This is just an attempt to rerun the Michael Foot duffel coat story. Here's an extract from the Wiki article.
quote:
The right-wing newspapers nevertheless lambasted him consistently for what they saw as his bohemian eccentricity, attacking him for wearing what they described as a "donkey jacket" (actually he wore a type of duffel coat) at the wreath-laying ceremony at the Cenotaph on Remembrance Day in November 1981, for which he was likened to an "out-of-work navvy" by a fellow Labour MP.
[ 15. September 2015, 22:07: Message edited by: Barnabas62 ]
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
My reservations about Jeremy Corbyn are ... that he has a long record of voting against the Party Line. He gives me no problem on the policy front but it gives the Labour Whips one hell of a job getting the vote out to support a party led by a someone who didn't see party discipline as important when he was a backbencher.
But, if you're going for developing a consensus within the party, to discuss policy and explain why you think it's the best option, treat your fellow MPs with brains they can use to work out what is the best for their constituents and country rather than sheep to bleat out the soundbites created by party PR gurus and be herded into the right lobby ... well, what need then of whips?
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
Some of these reactions to Corbyn seem so OTT and hysterical, and I puzzle as to what is going on. I suppose there is outrage and fear that someone should not pay homage to the deep snobbery in the British establishment. Well, otherwise I can't understand the bizarre comments. I mean, 'sandwichgate' is amazing really, a complete fabrication in order to smear Corbyn. This comes out of fear, doesn't it?
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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GCabot
Shipmate
# 18074
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink.:
Really the answer to comments about Corbyn's appearance ought to be two words: Boris Johnson
Ah, ah, but he's a lovable buffoon, donchaknow, he doesn't mean any disrespect by it; he's one of us.
Pass the champers, old thing.
I would say there is a clear distinction. Boris is pretty much presenting the classic nonchalance of the well-to-do. He keeps enough correct cues to make it obvious that his appearance is not the result of ignorance, but rather the result of a personality that cannot be bothered to hold steadfast to every pedantic rule of fashion. He does not venture so far outside the lines as to create scandal, however.
Corbyn, on the other hand, is either displaying a stunning illiteracy of basic social custom, or is consciously cultivating an image of being defiantly, flagrantly provocative and antagonistic towards the status quo.
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The child that is born unto us is more than a prophet; for this is he of whom the Savior saith: "Among them that are born of woman, there hath not risen one greater than John the Baptist."
Posts: 285 | From: The Heav'n Rescued Land | Registered: Apr 2014
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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
Well, some people would say that wearing jeans and a t-shirt to church is rude!
Yes, of course. And if I go to that kind of church, I dress up.
quote:
But we all have our own standards, and by Mr Corbyn's standards, his outfit for the service was smart.
There are two sets of standards that are important - your own, and the standards of wherever you're going. At my church, for example, there are certain people who are always impeccably dressed. That's their personal standard, and that's fine. These people would no more think of coming to church in a t-shirt than they would think of coming naked. Then there's the standard of my church, which is more or less "come in whatever makes you feel comfortable".
Corbyn may have been smarter than usual, but he still missed the mark. As I said, my usual attire is a pair of jeans and a t-shirt. If I show up to a black tie dinner in a sports jacket, it's still rude, and the fact that any kind of jacket is smarter than my usual style doesn't excuse anything.
At Karl's wedding, he got to dictate the dress standard. His choice was "don't feel you have to 'dress up' in clothes you don't usually wear". That's fine, and apparently most people felt more comfortable dressing up for a wedding anyway. Which, as Karl hadn't said "Don't show up in a tie" was fine.
Being rude and scruffy isn't, on the scale of things, terribly important. As I said earlier, Gordon Brown managed it for a decade and still became Prime Minister. If I was to discuss his successes and failures as a politician, his inappropriate lounge suit wouldn't get a look in.
But the fact that being rude and scruffy is relatively unimportant doesn't make it any less rude.
quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink.:
Really the answer to comments about Corbyn's appearance ought to be two words: Boris Johnson
Funny you should mention him.
Here are Messrs. Johnson and Cameron at the memorial service for the 7/7 victims earlier this year. Cameron looks smart. Johnson is wearing smart clothes.
Here is Boris greeting Mr. Corbyn on the same occasion. Corbyn managed to do his shirt up for this one, although he still didn't manage to wear a suit.
Posts: 5026 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2013
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Louise
Shipmate
# 30
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Posted
I don't quite know what I make of Jeremy Corbyn. He has some good ideas domestically but takes the whole anti-Imperialist solidarity with unpleasant feckwits thing a bit too far. Being in Scotland, when it comes to anti-austerity leaders 'We've got one already - she's very nice!' to paraphrase Monty Python and the Holy Grail.
But the way the newspapers are losing their collective minds and witch-hunting Corbyn is something else. It reminds me of Project Fear in the independence referendum at its very worst - and we all know how that turned out. They got the No vote, only to find they'd succeeded in immunising 45% of the population (and rising) against the Unionist establishment newspapers and their agenda-setting role in broadcast news. 45% is enough for First Past The Post electoral landslides; the electoral landscape was transformed and hilarity ensued.
Despite the friendly reception Jezza got in Scotland, the polls haven't been tipping. Scottish Labour are so Blairite/ right wing that their leader Kezia Dugdale came out against Corbyn publicly in The Guardian and is now trying to kiss up to him - but no-one believes her, and after Jim Murphy's previous attempt to insincerely wrap himself in the Red Flag, it's not likely to end well.
The crazy attempt to stir up froth about whether JC sings the national anthem or not, just makes me think better of him. This isn't 1981 anymore, there are growing alternative channels for political news and views which can make an end-run round traditional media. Not enough to fully overcome the effect of older voters being more likely to vote and to take their views from traditional media, but enough to make significant changes to electoral behaviour. Corbyn supporters, when analysed demographically, matched the make-up of the general British electorate very closely, except in one thing - they were 25% more likely to get their news and views from social media.
If they can start to close that gap, and find ways to run an effective social media campaign against the newspaper stitch-ups, then they have a chance, but I think they will struggle. The differential turn-out between old and young, digital natives and analogue readers/viewers still looks like too large a gap to me.
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Posts: 6918 | From: Scotland | Registered: May 2001
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
There are two sets of standards that are important - your own, and the standards of wherever you're going. At my church, for example, there are certain people who are always impeccably dressed. That's their personal standard, and that's fine. These people would no more think of coming to church in a t-shirt than they would think of coming naked. Then there's the standard of my church, which is more or less "come in whatever makes you feel comfortable".
Corbyn may have been smarter than usual, but he still missed the mark. As I said, my usual attire is a pair of jeans and a t-shirt. If I show up to a black tie dinner in a sports jacket, it's still rude, and the fact that any kind of jacket is smarter than my usual style doesn't excuse anything.
I don't understand. You say it's okay for people to turn up to church in whatever they feel smart in, but then you say that Corbyn (who was only at church, after all!) 'missed the mark' in the moderately smart outfit that he felt comfortable in.
Whose standards hold sway? Was there in fact a very specific dress code at this event?
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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Cod
Shipmate
# 2643
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Posted
Corbyn isn't the Leader of the Opposition in order to be polite, but to lead the opposition. Of course everyone including him should obey good manners, but I am rather afraid that the traditional media will concentrate on all manner of apparent faux pas rather than the meat and drink of his politics. This ridiculous storm about his not singing the National Anthem is probably just the start of it. At least he chose not to sing it, unlike a large number of sportspeople who seem incapable of singing at all.
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"I fart in your general direction."
M Barnier
Posts: 4229 | From: New Zealand | Registered: Apr 2002
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Louise:
I don't quite know what I make of Jeremy Corbyn. He has some good ideas domestically but takes the whole anti-Imperialist solidarity with unpleasant feckwits thing a bit too far.
Which seems a fair summary to me.
He seems to have a natural inclination to stand with the underdog, the marginalised, the oppressed. Domestically that will do him well. But, internationally there is an unfortunate tendency for the people who claim to represent marginalised and oppressed communities to be unpleasant (there are of course lots of exceptions). I want to see him continue to stand with those in need, but probably use a bit more nous in which organisations he's seen to support. Although, if he's sincere in seeking to use his influence as Leader of the Opposition to encourage dialogue to reach peaceful resolution of conflicts I can't see how that can happen without talking to, and being outwardly friendly towards, the extremists on all sides of the conflicts as well as the more moderate voices.
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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Arethosemyfeet
Shipmate
# 17047
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Posted
It has to be remembered that there is a difference between talking to and supporting. Corbyn has talked to terrorists, he does not support their actions. He's basically a hipster diplomat - he was talking to the IRA before it was cool; now he's ahead of the curve again talking to Hamas and Hezbollah.
Posts: 2933 | From: Hebrides | Registered: Apr 2012
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Arethosemyfeet:
It has to be remembered that there is a difference between talking to and supporting.
Which is a true and important distinction. But, unfortunately, one that can be conveniently forgotten by newspaper editors looking for more "loony left" headlines.
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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Chapelhead
I am
# 21
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Arethosemyfeet:
It has to be remembered that there is a difference between talking to and supporting.
But I don't think it surprising if people think comments like quote:
It's about time we started honouring those people involved in the armed struggle. It was the bombs and bullets and sacrifice made by the likes of Bobby Sands that brought Britain to the negotiating table. The peace we have now is due to the action of the IRA.
John McDonnell
and
quote:
Because of the bravery of the IRA and people like Bobby Sands we now have a peace process.
John McDonnell
sound an awful lot like "supporting".
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At times like this I find myself thinking, what would the Amish do?
Posts: 9123 | From: Near where I was before. | Registered: Aug 2001
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Chapelhead
I am
# 21
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Posted
Yes, neither quote is from Corbyn - that's why I made it clear who was being quoted. McDonnell is, however, the person Corbyn has appointed to a very senior post within his shadow cabinet, so has relevance here.
And I don't think the New Statesman provides much 'context' to make people change their view of the quotes. It just makes it sound as though McDonnell is happy to say that "we" (ie, including himself) should honour members of the IRA, but when challenged on it, changes tune to make it "they" might honour the IRA.
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At times like this I find myself thinking, what would the Amish do?
Posts: 9123 | From: Near where I was before. | Registered: Aug 2001
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Anglican't
Shipmate
# 15292
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Arethosemyfeet:
It has to be remembered that there is a difference between talking to and supporting. Corbyn has talked to terrorists, he does not support their actions. He's basically a hipster diplomat - he was talking to the IRA before it was cool; now he's ahead of the curve again talking to Hamas and Hezbollah.
'Hipster diplomat' did make me chuckle. It's an odd kind of diplomacy when he only ever talks to one side.
Or perhaps he has spent hours talking to the Ulster Volunteer Force and Israeli settlers but thinks it's uncool to publicise it.
Posts: 3613 | From: London, England | Registered: Nov 2009
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Ariel
Shipmate
# 58
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink.:
Whereas I question the appropriateness of arranging the singing of a national anthem in a church service at all.
Well, in England the official state religion is the Church of England and the Queen is the head of that church. I should think it quite appropriate.
Posts: 25445 | Registered: May 2001
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George Spigot
Outcast
# 253
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Touchstone:
I couldn't give a toss about his appearance, but when you attend a solemn service to commemorate people who gave their lives to save this country and by extension civilisation, you join in with the ceremonies or you stay away, and that means - at a bare minimum - singing the fracking national anthem. I'm no great monarchist myself, but this was not a place to air his arrested-development polytechnic student political hangups, it a was a place to show some respect for people who did more for this country than he ever has or will.
I was unlikely to vote for Corbyn before, I'm sure as hell not going to now.
Have we now reached the point where insincerity is not only expected from our MP'S but people get offended when they don't display it?
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C.S. Lewis's Head is just a tool for the Devil. (And you can quote me on that.) ~
Philip Purser Hallard
http://www.thoughtplay.com/infinitarian/gbsfatb.html
Posts: 1625 | From: Derbyshire - England | Registered: May 2001
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George Spigot
Outcast
# 253
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Posted
I look forward to the day...maybe it will happen this year...maybe next....when people arguing about Corbyn will quote things Corbyn actually said.
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C.S. Lewis's Head is just a tool for the Devil. (And you can quote me on that.) ~
Philip Purser Hallard
http://www.thoughtplay.com/infinitarian/gbsfatb.html
Posts: 1625 | From: Derbyshire - England | Registered: May 2001
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ariel:
quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink.:
Whereas I question the appropriateness of arranging the singing of a national anthem in a church service at all.
Well, in England the official state religion is the Church of England and the Queen is the head of that church. I should think it quite appropriate.
But there are Christians - let alone atheists - who would quibble with all of that. I suspect that some of my more radical Dissenting forebears would have not wished to sing this national anthem, had it been around in their day. But that wouldn't have been evidence of lack of commitment to their nation.
[ 16. September 2015, 07:22: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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Chapelhead
I am
# 21
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by alienfromzog:
Now, let us get back to some facts. Between 2003-2008, Britain ran small deficits.
Wasn't the UK deficit in 2008, at £77.6bn the highest it had ever been to that point, with the deficit 2003-2008 at £295.5n the highest for a six-year period that it had ever been to that point? (source: ONS) Is this a "small" deficit?
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I find the reaction to Corby's undone top button all rather OTT. On the other hand, with all the 'posh boy' comments thrown at Cameron, I think that many on the left have little high ground to stand on regarding personalising politics.
What interests me more is whether Corbyn had any ambivalence about the whole business of honouring the RAF. Were we right to declare war in 1939 - surely one day we would have to work with Germany, possibly even be partners with them, so should we not have negotiated rather than resort to war. There was no real threat to UK territory, so in Corbyn's assessment, presumably no grounds for deployment of UK troops.
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I also find myself wondering why the political right-of-centre seems so keen to 'bring down' Jeremy Corbyn - surely that's what the Labour party is for?
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At times like this I find myself thinking, what would the Amish do?
Posts: 9123 | From: Near where I was before. | Registered: Aug 2001
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ariel:
quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink.:
Whereas I question the appropriateness of arranging the singing of a national anthem in a church service at all.
Well, in England the official state religion is the Church of England and the Queen is the head of that church. I should think it quite appropriate.
I look forward to a day when neither of those are true; until then I'll make do with refusing to sing the Monarchist Anthem.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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betjemaniac
Shipmate
# 17618
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Chapelhead:
I find the reaction to Corby's undone top button all rather OTT. On the other hand, with all the 'posh boy' comments thrown at Cameron, I think that many on the left have little high ground to stand on regarding personalising politics.
This, basically. I wonder if this goose sauce will do for the gander...?
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And is it true? For if it is....
Posts: 1481 | From: behind the dreaming spires | Registered: Mar 2013
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Ariel
Shipmate
# 58
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Chapelhead:
What interests me more is whether Corbyn had any ambivalence about the whole business of honouring the RAF. Were we right to declare war in 1939 - surely one day we would have to work with Germany, possibly even be partners with them, so should we not have negotiated rather than resort to war.
We did. "I have in my hand a piece of paper..."
Posts: 25445 | Registered: May 2001
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
I look forward to a day when neither of those are true; until then I'll make do with refusing to sing the Monarchist Anthem.
Agreed.
Singing words you don't believe is no different from saying words you don't believe. Why should there be such social pressure to do so?
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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Anglican't
Shipmate
# 15292
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by George Spigot:
I look forward to the day...maybe it will happen this year...maybe next....when people arguing about Corbyn will quote things Corbyn actually said.
But that's the problem, isn't it? Most of the attacks on Corbyn seem to consist of quoting his words back at him.
Posts: 3613 | From: London, England | Registered: Nov 2009
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