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Source: (consider it) Thread: Purgatory: Thoughts on Jeremy Corbyn as Labour leader
betjemaniac
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quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
I look forward to a day when neither of those are true; until then I'll make do with refusing to sing the Monarchist Anthem.

Agreed.

Singing words you don't believe is no different from saying words you don't believe. Why should there be such social pressure to do so?

Well quite, except that's not the world we live in.

The world we live in has just put the shadow equalities minister onto the Today Programme who, without any prevarication or attempt to advance arguments such as yours described it as (from memory):

a "mistake", something that he "shouldn't have done," and most unnecessarily and perhaps damningly of all something which will have "upset and offended many people around the country."

All of that was said without being teed up by the interviewer. With friends like these.... I've never heard a minister, shadow or otherwise, be that bluntly critical of their boss.

[ 16. September 2015, 07:39: Message edited by: betjemaniac ]

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Boogie

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A political leader with no spin doctors, no dressers, no need for fudge - what a breath of fresh air!

I imagine a lot of young people will find this 'new' way of doing things very refreshing.

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Garden. Room. Walk

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betjemaniac
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quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
A political leader with no spin doctors, no dressers, no need for fudge - what a breath of fresh air!

I imagine a lot of young people will find this 'new' way of doing things very refreshing.

I think both the "this is awesome" and the "this is dreadful" camps would do well to sit back and see what happens.

I'm finding the zealous bright new dawn certainty of both camps a little over the top at the moment.

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And is it true? For if it is....

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Karl: Liberal Backslider
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quote:
Originally posted by betjemaniac:
quote:
Originally posted by Chapelhead:


I find the reaction to Corby's undone top button all rather OTT. On the other hand, with all the 'posh boy' comments thrown at Cameron, I think that many on the left have little high ground to stand on regarding personalising politics.


This, basically. I wonder if this goose sauce will do for the gander...?
The point of drawing attention to Cameron's "posh boy" status is to point out that he hasn't a clue about the day to day lives of people at the bottom of the societal heap.

The point of the attacks on Corbyn for his clothing here is - erm - to make an attack on him.

There's a difference.

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Karl: Liberal Backslider
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# 76

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quote:
Originally posted by betjemaniac:
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
I look forward to a day when neither of those are true; until then I'll make do with refusing to sing the Monarchist Anthem.

Agreed.

Singing words you don't believe is no different from saying words you don't believe. Why should there be such social pressure to do so?

Well quite, except that's not the world we live in.

The world we live in has just put the shadow equalities minister onto the Today Programme who, without any prevarication or attempt to advance arguments such as yours described it as (from memory):

a "mistake", something that he "shouldn't have done," and most unnecessarily and perhaps damningly of all something which will have "upset and offended many people around the country."

All of that was said without being teed up by the interviewer. With friends like these.... I've never heard a minister, shadow or otherwise, be that bluntly critical of their boss.

I heard that. He's entitled to his opinion, of course, but I thought he talked absolute bollocks.

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Might as well ask the bloody cat.

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betjemaniac
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quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
quote:
Originally posted by betjemaniac:
quote:
Originally posted by Chapelhead:


I find the reaction to Corby's undone top button all rather OTT. On the other hand, with all the 'posh boy' comments thrown at Cameron, I think that many on the left have little high ground to stand on regarding personalising politics.


This, basically. I wonder if this goose sauce will do for the gander...?
The point of drawing attention to Cameron's "posh boy" status is to point out that he hasn't a clue about the day to day lives of people at the bottom of the societal heap.

The point of the attacks on Corbyn for his clothing here is - erm - to make an attack on him.

There's a difference.

the problem of that is that it's all opinion. It's grandstanding which suits the accuser to think they *know* therefore their's is alright. The others don't *know* so their's isn't.

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betjemaniac
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quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
quote:
Originally posted by betjemaniac:
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
I look forward to a day when neither of those are true; until then I'll make do with refusing to sing the Monarchist Anthem.

Agreed.

Singing words you don't believe is no different from saying words you don't believe. Why should there be such social pressure to do so?

Well quite, except that's not the world we live in.

The world we live in has just put the shadow equalities minister onto the Today Programme who, without any prevarication or attempt to advance arguments such as yours described it as (from memory):

a "mistake", something that he "shouldn't have done," and most unnecessarily and perhaps damningly of all something which will have "upset and offended many people around the country."

All of that was said without being teed up by the interviewer. With friends like these.... I've never heard a minister, shadow or otherwise, be that bluntly critical of their boss.

I heard that. He's entitled to his opinion, of course, but I thought he talked absolute bollocks.
Fair enough - it's not how I thought *she* came across though...

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And is it true? For if it is....

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Anglican't
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Apparently George Galloway has just told LBC radio that he would've sung the national anthem in those circumstances. Perhaps he's just a Tory sell-out?
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mr cheesy
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I wouldn't sing it either.

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arse

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Karl: Liberal Backslider
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quote:
Originally posted by betjemaniac:
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
quote:
Originally posted by betjemaniac:
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
I look forward to a day when neither of those are true; until then I'll make do with refusing to sing the Monarchist Anthem.

Agreed.

Singing words you don't believe is no different from saying words you don't believe. Why should there be such social pressure to do so?

Well quite, except that's not the world we live in.

The world we live in has just put the shadow equalities minister onto the Today Programme who, without any prevarication or attempt to advance arguments such as yours described it as (from memory):

a "mistake", something that he "shouldn't have done," and most unnecessarily and perhaps damningly of all something which will have "upset and offended many people around the country."

All of that was said without being teed up by the interviewer. With friends like these.... I've never heard a minister, shadow or otherwise, be that bluntly critical of their boss.

I heard that. He's entitled to his opinion, of course, but I thought he talked absolute bollocks.
Fair enough - it's not how I thought *she* came across though...
The person I heard was a bloke. Probably a different interview. Same line though.

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Might as well ask the bloody cat.

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Karl: Liberal Backslider
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quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:
Apparently George Galloway has just told LBC radio that he would've sung the national anthem in those circumstances. Perhaps he's just a Tory sell-out?

Not doing what George Galloway would have done is generally considered sage advice, isn't it?

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Might as well ask the bloody cat.

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alienfromzog

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quote:
Originally posted by Chapelhead:
quote:
Originally posted by alienfromzog:
Now, let us get back to some facts. Between 2003-2008, Britain ran small deficits.

Wasn't the UK deficit in 2008, at £77.6bn the highest it had ever been to that point, with the deficit 2003-2008 at £295.5n the highest for a six-year period that it had ever been to that point? (source: ONS) Is this a "small" deficit?

***

Um, no.
Try this link (ONS data but laid out much better than the ONS ever does).

Please note the first chart. Public sector net debt as a percentage of GDP lower in 2008 than 1997.

There's a lot more to be said about these data and am happy to discuss but maybe not on this thread.

Talking about raw numbers is usually meaningless - except when being used to scare people. Debt/deficit as a percentage of GDP is the important statistic.

The confusion probably comes from financial year vs calendar year. I meant 2002-3 - 2007-8 i.e. pre-crisis. By the end of 2008 things were beginning to change. Anyway the point is that in terms of the government finances Britain was not badly placed pre-crisis despite what some people desperately need you to believe. I apologise for not being totally specific there.

What was a problem then is how unbalanced our economy was. If you listen to Osborne he's solved this problem. If you look at the data, the opposite is true and the fundamentals of our economy are worse.

AFZ

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Barnabas62
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One of Tony Blair's nicknames during his PM time was "Teflon Tony". Which recognised the inability of the opposition at the time to launch an effective political attack.

Now political attacks can be either "play the ball" or "play the man". In these early Corbyn days, we are seeing some pretty concerted politican denigration of Jeremy Corbyn, both by "play the ball" and "play the man".

It's been part of his appeal that he doesn't go in for spin-type professional news management. He's not going to go looking for an Alistair Campbell to look after his image, advise him on presentational issues. Some folks find that refreshing.

What we are beginning to see - and I expect we'll see a lot more of it - is that refusing to acknowledge the need for help with presentation and image will make Corbyn very vulnerable to concerted political attack. I suppose there may be some kind of public backlash to this on the grounds of "for goodness sake, give the man a chance". There will be some sympathy and that will help. But if he continues to trip over his feet in public - or give the media grounds for telling stories along these lines - it will do lasting damage to his credibility as a future leader, even with those who are prepared to "give the man a chance".

Whether we like it or not (and I don't particularly like it), the ability to play the image game is an important attribute in modern political life. Something JC is either going to have to learn fast, or take the smothering consequences if he doesn't want to play the game.

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Alwyn
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I thought that Corbyn's tendency to remain silent would hurt his career as Labour leader - I didn't realise it would happen so soon. (I was thinking of his statement that he won't respond to personal attacks.)

It's funny what people read into what people wear and when people are silent. A lot of people seem to be saying that his choices mean that he disrespects veterans of the Second World War. Never mind that he said, afterwards:

“My mum served as an air raid warden and my dad in the Home Guard.

Like that whole generation, they showed tremendous courage and determination to defeat fascism. The heroism of the Royal Air Force in the Battle of Britain is something to which we all owe an enormous debt of gratitude.

The loss of life - both civilian and military - should be commemorated so that we both honour their lives and do all that we can to ensure future generations are spared the horrors of war.” (source)

None of that matters: he had a button undone and apparently wore a jacket that was a slightly different colour from his trousers. This PROVES that he hates war veterans and Britain and the Queen and kittens and puppies!

Was it just me, or were the lock-step personal attacks against Corbyn on most newspaper front pages slightly creepy? They reminded me of the Daily Mail's famous attack on Ed Miliband, when they called his father "The Man Who Hated Britain". An attack described in these terms:-

"The Mail managed to offend against taste and decency on multiple counts - attacking a man for his deceased father's views, misrepresenting those views, attacking a Jew, attacking a refugee from Hitler."

Who said that? Charles Moore, former editor of the Daily Telegraph and biographer of Margaret Thatcher (source). For me, that kind of personal attack is more of an offence against taste and decency than wearing a slightly mismatched suit and having one button undone. It's nice for me, as a leftie, to see that there are decent, principled conservatives who see such attacks as tasteless.

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quetzalcoatl
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Corbyn was bound to come up against the snobbery and intolerance which exists in this country. On the other hand, it's precisely not having a spin doctor which is part of his appeal.

For people like me, it's so refreshing to see a political leader who is not running scared of 'image', yet also, I can see that some people are appalled by this. I doubt if they would vote for him anyway!

I just don't want him to fake stuff. But I suppose politicians are expected to, and this has made some people despair. It's a fascinating clash of cultures.

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Luigi
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quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
One of Tony Blair's nicknames during his PM time was "Teflon Tony". Which recognised the inability of the opposition at the time to launch an effective political attack.

Now political attacks can be either "play the ball" or "play the man". In these early Corbyn days, we are seeing some pretty concerted politican denigration of Jeremy Corbyn, both by "play the ball" and "play the man".

It's been part of his appeal that he doesn't go in for spin-type professional news management. He's not going to go looking for an Alistair Campbell to look after his image, advise him on presentational issues. Some folks find that refreshing.

What we are beginning to see - and I expect we'll see a lot more of it - is that refusing to acknowledge the need for help with presentation and image will make Corbyn very vulnerable to concerted political attack. I suppose there may be some kind of public backlash to this on the grounds of "for goodness sake, give the man a chance". There will be some sympathy and that will help. But if he continues to trip over his feet in public - or give the media grounds for telling stories along these lines - it will do lasting damage to his credibility as a future leader, even with those who are prepared to "give the man a chance".

Whether we like it or not (and I don't particularly like it), the ability to play the image game is an important attribute in modern political life. Something JC is either going to have to learn fast, or take the smothering consequences if he doesn't want to play the game.

Exactly. Many felt his refreshing honesty would just answer these attacks. But IMV the most astute commentators pointed out that without incredibly strong presentational skills / team, Corbyn will just spend his whole time trying to defend himself from the endless onslaught with little chance to get on to the front foot - either to attack the Government or present new policy ideas
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quetzalcoatl
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But that assumes that the 'endless onslaught' actually is anything but tittle-tattle. It's just high-grade gossip, as far as I can see.

I don't see that there is anything to answer.

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betjemaniac
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quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
But that assumes that the 'endless onslaught' actually is anything but tittle-tattle. It's just high-grade gossip, as far as I can see.

I don't see that there is anything to answer.

But, the problem is, you're not the media - and what you or I don't see isn't the same as what they see or don't see.

What has been absolutely fascinating in the past 72 hours or so, has been the extent to which the media is indeed in lock-step.

The Murdoch papers you'd expect it from, also the Mail and Express. But this is practically everyone. The BBC, even the Guardian and Independent are joining in. I've never seen anything like it. About the only paper with any circulation worth talking about (so stand fast the Morning Star) that is doing cartwheels of unequivocal joy is the Daily Mirror.

The most fascinating to watch over the coming weeks and months will I think be the Scottish press. The SNP are going to have to play a really interesting game to defend their left flank while perhaps (I don't know how it will pan out) trying not to attack him too much given they spent the last GE campaign trying to be the voice of "proper Labour."

I thought Nicola Sturgeon's comment at the weekend that Corbyn going too far to the left being another argument for Independence was a really interesting observation about the sort of tensions that might now come to the surface within the SNP.

It's certainly interesting times, if nothing else.

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quetzalcoatl
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I'm not sure about that 'even' the Guardian and the Indie. The Guardian was one of the most hostile media during the leadership campaign.

If he didn't expect the whole media to be hostile, then he's not the man I take him for.

But Corbyn has found such a response recently, precisely because he does't have a spin doctor, and he speaks as himself. People are tired of political fakery.

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betjemaniac
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quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
I'm not sure about that 'even' the Guardian and the Indie. The Guardian was one of the most hostile media during the leadership campaign.

If he didn't expect the whole media to be hostile, then he's not the man I take him for.

But Corbyn has found such a response recently, precisely because he does't have a spin doctor, and he speaks as himself. People are tired of political fakery.

He might well be. However, Owen Jones in the Graun this morning is I think mostly right that it isn't going to be enough without a media strategy.

In the best of all possible worlds it is just barely theoretically possible to win without winning over a single Conservative voter.

However, back in the real world, 4m people just voted for UKIP and many of those are traditional northern Labour voters who might not really "do" social media...

I've also seen some figures, and if someone can find them before I can I'd be very grateful (because I can't find them) but I think it was politicalbetting, that suggest that thanks to the marginals and the constituency boundaries in reality for Labour to get a majority they're going to have to take 4 in 5 of the necessary votes from the Conservatives.

The echo chamber approach of self-reinforcing social media is spectacularly unlikely to help with this.

[ 16. September 2015, 09:47: Message edited by: betjemaniac ]

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And is it true? For if it is....

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Luigi
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quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
But that assumes that the 'endless onslaught' actually is anything but tittle-tattle. It's just high-grade gossip, as far as I can see.

I don't see that there is anything to answer.

Quetzal - I don't think there is much to answer either. I am merely saying that he will find it very hard to move on whilst the right wing press are setting the agenda.

Take the example of the SNP dictating policy to Labour in the last election. There was very little substance to it - and it could be easily countered and the holes in the assumptions were pointed out. However, it dominated the news for many days and no matter how hard Labour tried they struggled to move the debate on.

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lowlands_boy
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Well, it's PMQs today isn't it. So we can all watch that and have a meltdown over what he wears, or we can see how he actually gets on in terms of questions.

He seems to have opened the floor for people to choose questions for him to ask. Predictably, hilarity ensues on Twitter, but I don't think he'll choose to ask about the PMs favourite cheese, or whether he'll vote for Ainsley Harriot on Strictly Come Dancing.

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quetzalcoatl
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Sure. I noticed this morning a series of posts on social media from the Corbyn team, but also, he's only been in post for 4 days!

I think it's going to be very interesting also, as to whether someone can buck the trend of politicians being fake, and be popular.

I don't know. He has certainly succeeded thus far by eschewing spin. The media are doing their fake outrage thing, but the test will be whether his momentum continues.

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Barnabas62
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quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:

If he didn't expect the whole media to be hostile, then he's not the man I take him for.

But Corbyn has found such a response recently, precisely because he does't have a spin doctor, and he speaks as himself. People are tired of political fakery.

To borrow from Louise, his actions in not singing make him look like a bit of a "feckwit", regardless of what they show of his fearless sincerity. The feckwittedness is in causing gratuitous offence, for no very good reason, to people whose support you're going to need if you want to be PM. Why do it? What was the point of doing it?

And if it was done without thought, that's even worse. He's a public figure now, in the "goldfish bowl".

He's already got the support of those who are cheering him. Keeping that support should not be his immediate concern. So it's not the expected hostility of the media which is the issue, it is risking losing the respect of those who might have been prepared to give him a chance. He played right into the hands of the media hostility and probably upset a fair few people of moderate views as well. A double own goal.

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betjemaniac
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quote:
Originally posted by Luigi:
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
But that assumes that the 'endless onslaught' actually is anything but tittle-tattle. It's just high-grade gossip, as far as I can see.

I don't see that there is anything to answer.

Quetzal - I don't think there is much to answer either. I am merely saying that he will find it very hard to move on whilst the right wing press are setting the agenda.

The problem is it's not "the right wing press" - it's every media outlet with the exception of the Mirror, the Star, the Morning Star and the Socialist Worker. The BBC, Guardian, Observer and Independent are pushing (to a greater or lesser extent) variations on the same line as the Sun, Mail, and Express, Times, Telegraph and Sky.

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quetzalcoatl
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quote:
Originally posted by Luigi:
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
But that assumes that the 'endless onslaught' actually is anything but tittle-tattle. It's just high-grade gossip, as far as I can see.

I don't see that there is anything to answer.

Quetzal - I don't think there is much to answer either. I am merely saying that he will find it very hard to move on whilst the right wing press are setting the agenda.

Take the example of the SNP dictating policy to Labour in the last election. There was very little substance to it - and it could be easily countered and the holes in the assumptions were pointed out. However, it dominated the news for many days and no matter how hard Labour tried they struggled to move the debate on.

But wasn't that because Labour were being coy? I mean, they didn't actually take such issues head-on, but ducked them. I couldn't believe how timid the Miliband team were, as if opposing the Tories was bad manners.

If Corbyn is as coy as this, then sure, there is no point to all the recent excitement. But I expect him to articulate opposition to Tory policies.

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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.

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quetzalcoatl
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# 16740

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quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:

If he didn't expect the whole media to be hostile, then he's not the man I take him for.

But Corbyn has found such a response recently, precisely because he does't have a spin doctor, and he speaks as himself. People are tired of political fakery.

To borrow from Louise, his actions in not singing make him look like a bit of a "feckwit", regardless of what they show of his fearless sincerity. The feckwittedness is in causing gratuitous offence, for no very good reason, to people whose support you're going to need if you want to be PM. Why do it? What was the point of doing it?

And if it was done without thought, that's even worse. He's a public figure now, in the "goldfish bowl".

He's already got the support of those who are cheering him. Keeping that support should not be his immediate concern. So it's not the expected hostility of the media which is the issue, it is risking losing the respect of those who might have been prepared to give him a chance. He played right into the hands of the media hostility and probably upset a fair few people of moderate views as well. A double own goal.

Well, if he had sung the anthem, he would not be Jeremy Corbyn. This is where the faking and lying starts, and I for one, am so relieved that he has not succumbed. Tired of Labour spin.

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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.

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Boogie

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# 13538

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quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
To borrow from Louise, his actions in not singing make him look like a bit of a "feckwit", regardless of what they show of his fearless sincerity. The feckwittedness is in causing gratuitous offence, for no very good reason, to people whose support you're going to need if you want to be PM. Why do it? What was the point of doing it?

Because the alternative is spin.

Which soon becomes prevarication.

Which soon becomes lies.

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Garden. Room. Walk

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Barnabas62
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I get that, quetzalcoatl. I really do. But sincerity is not enough, however much we might wish it was. Not in the leader of a political party which aspires to govern.

There is always a battle to retain personal integrity in the political fight to gain or regain power. Leaders can and do lose their way on the battleground. But part of the wisdom of that is focusing on the fights you really need to win. Concentrating your energies and efforts on what is, or may be, attainable. And not giving aid and comfort to those who would do you down.

[ 16. September 2015, 10:39: Message edited by: Barnabas62 ]

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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?

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Luigi
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# 4031

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quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
quote:
Originally posted by Luigi:
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
But that assumes that the 'endless onslaught' actually is anything but tittle-tattle. It's just high-grade gossip, as far as I can see.

I don't see that there is anything to answer.

Quetzal - I don't think there is much to answer either. I am merely saying that he will find it very hard to move on whilst the right wing press are setting the agenda.

Take the example of the SNP dictating policy to Labour in the last election. There was very little substance to it - and it could be easily countered and the holes in the assumptions were pointed out. However, it dominated the news for many days and no matter how hard Labour tried they struggled to move the debate on.

But wasn't that because Labour were being coy? I mean, they didn't actually take such issues head-on, but ducked them. I couldn't believe how timid the Miliband team were, as if opposing the Tories was bad manners.

If Corbyn is as coy as this, then sure, there is no point to all the recent excitement. But I expect him to articulate opposition to Tory policies.

Part of the answer is they didn't counter it clearly or effectively enough - agreed. However, I think the 'let's just be honest, let's not worry about getting a team that is really clever at making it so that our side sets the agenda' is a lot harder to make work, than quite a few of his supporters think. I hope I am wrong.

[ 16. September 2015, 10:29: Message edited by: Luigi ]

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Karl: Liberal Backslider
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# 76

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Newsthump nails it:

http://newsthump.com/2015/09/16/everyone-furious-as-agnostic-republican-doesnt-sing-song-about-god-rescuing-a-monarch/

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Might as well ask the bloody cat.

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Ariel
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# 58

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quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
Well, if he had sung the anthem, he would not be Jeremy Corbyn. This is where the faking and lying starts, and I for one, am so relieved that he has not succumbed. Tired of Labour spin.

Well, he "intends to participate fully in any future such events" so wait and see.
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
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# 76

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quote:
Originally posted by Ariel:
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
Well, if he had sung the anthem, he would not be Jeremy Corbyn. This is where the faking and lying starts, and I for one, am so relieved that he has not succumbed. Tired of Labour spin.

Well, he "intends to participate fully in any future such events" so wait and see.
Because of course then he can be accused of hypocrisy. He couldn't win this one.

[ 16. September 2015, 11:16: Message edited by: Karl: Liberal Backslider ]

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Might as well ask the bloody cat.

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mr cheesy
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# 3330

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Unbelievable that a senior public figure can be bullied into doing something that acts against his conscience.

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arse

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Alan Cresswell

Mad Scientist 先生
# 31

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Well, he hasn't actually done anything yet. Just that he'll fully participate in future. That could be fully participating by standing in respectful silence ...

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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.

Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
lowlands_boy
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# 12497

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Corbyn didn't exactly get deafened by support from his own side when he was first called. He got a warmer welcome from Cameron than them.

His idea of getting questions from "Paul, Andrea" etc etc was a bit different, but the questions weren't actually any different to those you'd expect him to have asked anyway.

He's also got skewered a few times by others such as the SNP who said they looked forward to working with him on opposing Trident, with a few digs about McDonnel's "IRA support" and the importance of the national anthem.

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I thought I should update my signature line....

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L'organist
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# 17338

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He didn't sing any of the hymns either.

He did spend quite a lot of time look around, up at the dome, etc: if I had to make a guess I'd say he either hadn't been there before or it was a very long time ago.

And it wasn't a suit: it was a blue jacket with dark charcoal trousers.

Thoughts? I think he and his team need to get a handle on how the UK press will spin his every appearance and cut down on the potential for mud to be thrown. They should make a start be ensuring that he appears decently dressed at the Cenotaph in November, and by either getting him bigger shirts, or making sure he does up his top button when he wears a tie.

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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet

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Ariel
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# 58

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No, apparently he will actually sing the National Anthem.

"A Labour source later told Sky News that Mr Corbyn would be singing the national anthem at future ceremonial events."

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Sioni Sais
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# 5713

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By yur they've not forgotten a Secretary of State for Wales who couldn't be arsed to learn one verse of "Hen Wlad Fy Nhadau"*, but tried to mime it instead (badly as it turned out). From that I deduce ignorance, idleness and an attempt to deceive are regarded better than principles.

*"(Old) Land of my Fathers", the official Welsh national anthem.

[ 16. September 2015, 11:43: Message edited by: Sioni Sais ]

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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"

(Paul Sinha, BBC)

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George Spigot

Outcast
# 253

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quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
Part of the wisdom of that is focusing on the fights you really need to win. Concentrating your energies and efforts on what is, or may be, attainable. And not giving aid and comfort to those who would do you down.

How about concentrating your energies and efforts on policy and not wasting time and energy on spin.

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C.S. Lewis's Head is just a tool for the Devil. (And you can quote me on that.) ~
Philip Purser Hallard
http://www.thoughtplay.com/infinitarian/gbsfatb.html

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betjemaniac
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# 17618

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quote:
Originally posted by George Spigot:
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
Part of the wisdom of that is focusing on the fights you really need to win. Concentrating your energies and efforts on what is, or may be, attainable. And not giving aid and comfort to those who would do you down.

How about concentrating your energies and efforts on policy and not wasting time and energy on spin.
what if whether you like it or not spin's a fight you need to win *as well*?

what if it can't be either or?

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And is it true? For if it is....

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Chapelhead

I am
# 21

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quote:
Originally posted by Ariel:
"A Labour source later told Sky News that Mr Corbyn would be singing the national anthem at future ceremonial events."

'A labour source' says he will, but when asked directly about it Corbyn himself evades the question. How's that 'straight-talking politician free from spin' thing going?

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At times like this I find myself thinking, what would the Amish do?

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quetzalcoatl
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# 16740

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I doubt that Corbyn will decide not to have a media unit, which will advise on presentation and so on.

But this is going on against a background, where, first, many people got sick of the Blair-type spin, which seemed to end up in straight lies. So there has been a kind of revulsion against that.

Second, I noticed the large crowds which Yvette Cooper attracted during her leadership campaign. This is testimony to her ability in media presentation, of course.

Corbyn is learning on the job, obviously. I watched PMQs and I thought he did OK, but then I happen to like the guy. I think he is respectful, articulate, and politically intelligent. We will have to see if he can unnerve Cameron.

I don't think anyone knows. I suspect that the right-wing is nervous of him, hence the onslaught. It's perfectly possible that he will crash and burn, of course, but it's also possible that he will steadily increase in popularity.

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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.

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betjemaniac
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# 17618

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Just on "spin" - it has become synonymous with Mandelson, the "dark arts," etc, but at root it's just another word for presentation.

I would argue that the two keys here are content and presentation.

You can go a long way with presentation and no content - til you get found out

You go furthest with both content *and* presentation

Sadly, it's difficult to go anywhere with just content.

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And is it true? For if it is....

Posts: 1481 | From: behind the dreaming spires | Registered: Mar 2013  |  IP: Logged
Barnabas62
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# 9110

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I agree on PMQs. The format JC chose didn't give much scope for follow up but he did undoubtedly change the tone to "more grown up". It was noticeable that Cameron restrained himself with Corbyn, but then went into attack dog mode immediately with the SNP! It was undoubtedly his most prattish moment.

I'm also inclined to think that continuing pressure on housing, benefits and health could well pay off longer term. There are only so many times Cameron can say "it's the economy, stupid" as his standard response to the pain of ordinary people. Particularly since it opens up the debate for 'Keynes v Monetarism' in terms of relative effectiveness - as we've been discussing here.

A modest but good opener for JC. He came across as quiet, serious, courteous, decent and reasonable. Now if he can manage to avoid prat falls for a while ....

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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?

Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
quetzalcoatl
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# 16740

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I think many people in Labour and probably outside, became weary of the 'dark arts' as practised under Blair, Mandelson and so on. The art of lying, I suppose.

But there's no need to go to the opposite extreme, and adopt a kind of puritanical zeal, which dismisses presentation. I do doubt that Corbyn will go down that route.

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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.

Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011  |  IP: Logged
George Spigot

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# 253

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quote:
Originally posted by betjemaniac:
quote:
Originally posted by George Spigot:
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
Part of the wisdom of that is focusing on the fights you really need to win. Concentrating your energies and efforts on what is, or may be, attainable. And not giving aid and comfort to those who would do you down.

How about concentrating your energies and efforts on policy and not wasting time and energy on spin.
what if whether you like it or not spin's a fight you need to win *as well*?

what if it can't be either or?

What if instead of continuing to do things the way they have been done for years because it's what everyone does, it were possible to (gasp) do something differently.

If politics is truly frozen in stasis and literally can never be changed for the better then we all may as well give up and never bother to vote again.

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Barnabas62
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# 9110

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There's a pretty fine dividing line between effective presentation and spin. There's a point where effective presentation can move over into misrepresentation. It's the point where getting a desired result is more important than the truth.

Not all news management is spin. It's better to talk about cleaning up the role than disdaining its value.

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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?

Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
leo
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# 1458

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quote:
Originally posted by Ariel:
quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink.:
Whereas I question the appropriateness of arranging the singing of a national anthem in a church service at all.

Well, in England the official state religion is the Church of England and the Queen is the head of that church. I should think it quite appropriate.
I am C of E and I don't sing the national anthem.

And the monarch is not 'head' of the C of E. That role belongs to Jesus. The monarch is 'the supreme governor.'

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George Spigot

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quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by Ariel:
quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink.:
Whereas I question the appropriateness of arranging the singing of a national anthem in a church service at all.

Well, in England the official state religion is the Church of England and the Queen is the head of that church. I should think it quite appropriate.
I am C of E and I don't sing the national anthem.

And the monarch is not 'head' of the C of E. That role belongs to Jesus. The monarch is 'the supreme governor.'

I just looked up the lyrics to refresh my memory. It's....really not very good.

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C.S. Lewis's Head is just a tool for the Devil. (And you can quote me on that.) ~
Philip Purser Hallard
http://www.thoughtplay.com/infinitarian/gbsfatb.html

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