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Source: (consider it) Thread: Purgatory: Thoughts on Jeremy Corbyn as Labour leader
Ricardus
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Agreed.

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Then the dog ran before, and coming as if he had brought the news, shewed his joy by his fawning and wagging his tail. -- Tobit 11:9 (Douai-Rheims)

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leo
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All this nonsence about dress codes and royalty reminds me of Keir Hardy.

He entered the House of Common in his cloth cap.

He lacked interest in a new royal baby on the grounds that it would be kow-towed to while several miners had recently lost their lives and were unmourned.

So Corybyn is true to the roots of Labour.

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betjemaniac
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quote:
Originally posted by leo:
All this nonsence about dress codes and royalty reminds me of Keir Hardy.

He entered the House of Common in his cloth cap.

He lacked interest in a new royal baby on the grounds that it would be kow-towed to while several miners had recently lost their lives and were unmourned.

So Corybyn is true to the roots of Labour.

He is. My Great Grandfather** though, who was a miner in the Durham coalfield, union man, and who knew Hardie relatively well, apparently always reckoned that Hardie's achievement was to get a foot in the door for more electable people to go through one day in the future (that is clearly not word for word how he expressed it, but it's how it was passed on to me by my methodist, Co-Op & Labour Party grandfather*).

Right man to be the first Labour MP, wrong man to be the first Labour PM.

*he, on the other hand, had a lot of time for Manny Shinwell, but was still teaching me abusive skipping rhymes about Ramsey Mac in the 1980s....

**and his father was gaoled in the 1860s for illegal union organising in the Durham coalfield - I've got a lot of his letters home from prison.

[ 17. September 2015, 14:41: Message edited by: betjemaniac ]

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And is it true? For if it is....

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quetzalcoatl
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I was sort of eavesdropping on various left-wing friends who were discussing the anthem/top button stuff, and several points were made which I thought were interesting.

1. Privilege. In some ways, Corbyn has been introduced in no small manner to a system of privilege - the great and the good gathered together, in correct clothes, and so on. Of course, to some extent he is fighting against privilege, hence the clash.

2. God. A lot of the upset about the anthem has been as an insult to the Queen, but some atheists have reminded me that it is a religious song. You could argue that we remember the dead, as they ensured our freedom, and part of that is the freedom not to sing religious stuff if you are not religious.

3. Performing. On the other hand, it would be odd to refuse to sing the Messiah in a choir, because you are an atheist. The Messiah is a performance, so some people are suggesting that the anthem is also, and indeed, kissing the Queen's hands.

4. Pick your battles. Speaks for itself really.

What interesting times we live in.

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chris stiles
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quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
God. A lot of the upset about the anthem has been as an insult to the Queen, but some atheists have reminded me that it is a religious song. You could argue that we remember the dead, as they ensured our freedom, and part of that is the freedom not to sing religious stuff if you are not religious.

Yes, and in that context it's amusing to see a lot of the right wing falling into the position of defending freedom in the abstract but the concrete - not so much.
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Cod
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I think he should at least have worn a suit. It wouldn't have been hard.

But really - it doesn't matter that much. And what distresses me about this incident how emblematic it is. Just about all reporting in the news is about whether Corbyn will conform to ceremonial norms, be they traditional ones (like kissing the Queen's hands) or modern ones (like having a PR army about him). It is as if politics has been replaced by Westminster Fashion Week. The media are deliberately baiting him by trying to pin him down on how he will conduct himself on similar occasions in the future.

I say just about all, because the remainder appears to be members of his own parliamentary party briefing against him. It's a pretty poor spectacle.

To be honest, I don't know what he can do about this. It is true that he's more popular in the Labour Party generally than in Parliament. However, I doubt he's at all popular elsewhere.

I'm afraid for Corbyn - that the Westminster machine will chew him up and spit him out, something that will send no clearer message than that Westminster politics is for the elect, not normal people who happen to be elected.

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Leorning Cniht
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quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
I keep on trying to imagine a universe where someone's going to get to the ballot box having read the manifestos and say "well, I agree with all Labour's policies but since that Mr Corbyn didn't do his top button up and his trousers were blue* five years ago I'm going to vote Tory".

I can't imagine anyone changing their voting intentions because Jeremy Corbyn didn't wear a suit to St. Paul's. I also don't think that's relevant.

I could give you a long list of things that politicians do that I think they shouldn't do, that wouldn't change the likelihood of my voting for them. I can assure you that if I was faced with a choice between two candidates as dissimilar as Mr. Corbyn and Mr. Osborne, their ability to dress themselves wouldn't alter my vote at all.

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Enoch
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Tangent alert, but it's quite an interesting one

Curiously, Keir Hardie's refusing to wear 'the right sort of clothes' because he represented the working man symbolises a dilemma that goes back to the roots of the Labour Party. From time to time it is a serious temptation to it even now.

Back in Keith Hardie's day, the Labour Party was the Labour Representation Committee. It was formed to represent, and to stick up for the interests of only part of the electorate, not all of it. So it was more like the SNP, Plaid, the DUP etc. As a representative of that part of the electorate, he was choosing to wear the clothes that symbolised this.

How ever much some might argue that they don't, both the Conservatives and the LibDems aspire to represent the whole of Mainland Britain. Others may disagree with them and say that they don't, but that is how they see themselves. They aren't overtly factional. There isn't a part of the electorate whose votes they aren't really interested in winning.

For most of the time since 1918, that has been true of the Labour Party. But from time to time, elements in it do overtly present themselves as aspiring to represent only either the working class as they define it or the trade unions as the Party's traditional backers.

If pressed, people from that tradition would probably say that because the workers have been hard done by, the rest of the electorate owe it to them as a matter or restorative justice, to vote for the workers' party.

Whether there's any such symbolism of Jeremy Corbyn's choice of dress for the service, I can't say. He may be seeking to express a sort of Puritanism. He may just be a scruffy dresser. Some people are. Certainly, his style is more that of an FE College lecturer than a working man. For once, this isn't really a comment about Jeremy Corbyn. It's a tangent about a dilemma that sometimes afflicts parts of the Labour Party.

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alienfromzog

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quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
I can't imagine anyone changing their voting intentions because Jeremy Corbyn didn't wear a suit to St. Paul's. I also don't think that's relevant.

I think that shows a lack of imagination on your part [Biased]

It's true people will. Sadly. Maybe not on that entirely but it's all part of a picture, a narrative.

Most people vote emotionally. Almost no-one reads manifestos. Engagement with issues is often very superficial.

So let's see, here are some words the press wants you to associate with Corbyn:


Disrespectful
Unpatriotic
Disorganised
Left Wing
Extreme
Scruffy
Radical


There's a longer list of course, but for most people who don't fully engage in politics, this is how elections are won and lost.

[Disappointed]

AFZ

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mr cheesy
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quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
Tangent alert, but it's quite an interesting one


It is interesting, but I think your implication - that MPs dress as Mainland Britain (a term I've never heard before - do you mean Middle England?) dresses - is utterly wrong. In fact, I think the vast majority of workers of all kinds do not dress like that at work and are much more likely to dress as Corbyn dresses.

I think the reality is that MPs dress as the perceive the country expects professional people in London to dress - which is not necessarily how they'd dress at work.

I think your points on Hardy are interesting, in that he had a very small electorate (I think I read he had about 4,000 people vote him into parliament) and stood in constituencies where the vast majority of people were working class.

That's not really the situation we're in today. But then I think this is part of the disconnect many have with politicians - they appear to dress, speak, associate and pander to a particular section of society to which the rest are supposed to either fawn or aspire to be.

A politician who refuses to do this and instead dresses as he feels he wants to dress and talks to people he wants to talk to in a way he wants to talk by definition stands out. And people who want politicians who stand and talk and dress in the normal anonymous way don't much like it.

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Barnabas62
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AFZ

That's pretty much what I was going to say. I think the political argument is "why risk putting off two or three people out of hundred over a minor issue of custom and practice?" And that is based on research which shows that people who change their votes do so for many different reasons, including reasons which many of us would think weren't real reasons.

mr cheesy

quote:
But then I think this is part of the disconnect many have with politicians - they appear to dress, speak, associate and pander to a particular section of society to which the rest are supposed to either fawn or aspire to be.
I think this is also true. It's certainly a part of JC's appeal to those who voted for him, and would probably vote for Labour in a general election anyway. I'm sure his actions have reinforced their views that JC is a good egg, not a kow-tower. But I don't see it broadening his appeal to the "soft centre" and it might cost him some support there.

Truth is, we don't really know yet. But Doublethink and AFZ in particular have persuaded me that there may be scope for reshaping public opinion on the merits of the austerity program. That argument will certainly have some mileage with the serious minded in the soft centre and cause some shift. I think it is worth concentrating on that issue and avoiding getting distracted by shadow and shallow issues. I reckon JC got off to a good start in PMQs and there's scope to build on that.

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leftfieldlover
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This is such a huge thread that I haven't the energy - or time - to read it all the way through! Has anyone considered that it is doubtful that Mr Corbyn will be leader of the Labour Party in 2020? He is 66 now, so would be in his early 70s by the next election. Perhaps he is acting as more of a stop-gap leader to enable the party to get more thoroughly back to its left-wing roots. Also, don't forget that Cameron will also be replaced before 2020. I honestly don't think politics could get more interesting over the next few years!
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lowlands_boy
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quote:
Originally posted by leftfieldlover:
This is such a huge thread that I haven't the energy - or time - to read it all the way through! Has anyone considered that it is doubtful that Mr Corbyn will be leader of the Labour Party in 2020? He is 66 now, so would be in his early 70s by the next election. Perhaps he is acting as more of a stop-gap leader to enable the party to get more thoroughly back to its left-wing roots. Also, don't forget that Cameron will also be replaced before 2020. I honestly don't think politics could get more interesting over the next few years!

Kinnock has said that one of the biggest reasons Labour didn't win in 1992 was that the Conservatives had ditched Thatcher and people couldn't believe that nice Mr. Major had been party to any of the nasty stuff that had gone on*.

If Cameron stands down (as he has indicated he would) and Osbourne becomes leader, there will be a very strong association between Osbourne and everything the government has done, as they've been just as much a fixture as Blair and Brown. If the Conservatives go for someone else (Boris?) who also doesn't have an association in the public mind, that could be clever for them.

* (Personally, I think he looked the biggest idiot ever in that rally in Sheffield, and had failed to set out his position in a number of key areas, by promising referenda if he won. But that's just me).

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quetzalcoatl
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I find the clothes/anthem discussion confusing, I mean, I don't really know how many people it will repel, and how many attract. It might also make very little difference.

I don't think Corbyn can walk on egg shells, in case he alarms Middle England, but at the same time, as already said, pick your battles. If he were to launch an attack on monarchy and theism tomorrow, I would say he has gone mad.

It seems obvious that austerity and neo-liberalism are the real targets, and judging from PMQs, he knows that.

I guess that if Labour start sinking in the polls, he will be under serious pressure.

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Penny S
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I thought Corbyn looked like a Quaker at Meeting, or a Quaker representing the Friends at some religious function not joining in with the creed. Respectfully. Apart from the atheism, there is a lot in his beliefs and way of doing things that would not sit uneasily among Friends.

A letter in the Guardian this morning informed me that there is a dispensation for Quakers, enabling them not to curtsey or bow to the Queen, and suggesting that now, and in parallel with the dispensation to affirm in courts, this should be extended to people with secular convictions about the matter.

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quetzalcoatl
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Yes, it's certainly interesting that the anthem is seen by some almost as compulsory, and this in a service commemorating those who died for our freedom! I suppose that's the freedom to think as I do.

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mr cheesy
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quote:
Originally posted by Penny S:
I thought Corbyn looked like a Quaker at Meeting, or a Quaker representing the Friends at some religious function not joining in with the creed. Respectfully. Apart from the atheism, there is a lot in his beliefs and way of doing things that would not sit uneasily among Friends.

Atheism is not a barrier to being a Quaker


quote:
A letter in the Guardian this morning informed me that there is a dispensation for Quakers, enabling them not to curtsey or bow to the Queen, and suggesting that now, and in parallel with the dispensation to affirm in courts, this should be extended to people with secular convictions about the matter.
Quakers refused to take oaths or remove their hats to those authority - which caused a bit of a problem for people standing for parliament or in a court case - and their relentless refusal to co-operate eventually led to laws which gave them (and anyone else who wanted to exercise it) the right to say no.

Which is quite an example - by refusing to be compelled or cowed, the law was eventually changed to reflect Quaker practice as valid under the law.

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Leorning Cniht
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quote:
Originally posted by Penny S:
I thought Corbyn looked like a Quaker at Meeting, or a Quaker representing the Friends at some religious function not joining in with the creed.

Standing respectfully but not singing hymns because you're an atheist is a reasonable and principled position. I wouldn't argue with atheists who sang along in aid of a quiet life, but I can't quibble with Corbyn's behaviour here either.

(Personally, I think the biggest reason that Labour lost in 1992 was that they were led by Mr. Kinnock. Had John Smith, for example, taken over a year or two earlier, they'd have won, and he would have been the first PM since Palmerston to die in office.)

Not wearing a suit to a function where a suit is the expected dress is scruffy and disrespectful. Possibly, like Keir Hardie, Corbyn has a political point to make with his choice of clothing - but wearing a jacket and tie in place of a suit is a rather fine political distinction to make. It's difficult to argue that the lounge suit is the distinctive dress of a social class that jacket-and-tie wearers are excluded from, for example.

Not doing his shirt up is just plain scruffy - the last time that had any kind of political significance was in rebellious fourth-formers behind the bike sheds.

[ 18. September 2015, 16:21: Message edited by: Leorning Cniht ]

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mr cheesy
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quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:

Not wearing a suit to a function where a suit is the expected dress is scruffy and disrespectful. Possibly, like Keir Hardie, Corbyn has a political point to make with his choice of clothing - but wearing a jacket and tie in place of a suit is a rather fine political distinction to make. It's difficult to argue that the lounge suit is the distinctive dress of a social class that jacket-and-tie wearers are excluded from, for example.

We're not going to agree on this.

One can buy a jacket and trousers in the town where I live for £1 each. I'm not sure how much a properly fitting lounge suit would cost, but I'm guessing in the hundreds of pounds.

Hence, one can easily be excluded from a dress code which insists on a lounge suit rather than a jacket and tie.

And anyway, what the dickens is actually disrespectful about wearing a [clean] jacket? Military people don't even pay for their own dress suits, why should civilians have to try to match up to their standards?

You're really struggling on this one. The man wore perfectly respectable clothing but refused to toe the line on unspoken military dress in a non-military civil service.

quote:
Not doing his shirt up is just plain scruffy - the last time that had any kind of political significance was in rebellious fourth-formers behind the bike sheds.
His collar button was undone.

By goodness, some people need to stop reading the Telegraph and think about things that actually matter.

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Anglican't
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quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
One can buy a jacket and trousers in the town where I live for £1 each. I'm not sure how much a properly fitting lounge suit would cost, but I'm guessing in the hundreds of pounds.

Hence, one can easily be excluded from a dress code which insists on a lounge suit rather than a jacket and tie.

Presumably if one buys a matching jacket and trousers for £1 each one has a suit?

While a suit from M&S is probably a couple of hundred quid I imagine that there are cheaper options out there (and charity shops often stock high quality second-hand clothing). I suspect that very few people are 'excluded' from wearing a suit. Certainly not a man who's been on an MP's salary for the last thirty years.

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Anglican't
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quote:
Originally posted by alienfromzog:
quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
I can't imagine anyone changing their voting intentions because Jeremy Corbyn didn't wear a suit to St. Paul's. I also don't think that's relevant.

I think that shows a lack of imagination on your part [Biased]

It's true people will. Sadly. Maybe not on that entirely but it's all part of a picture, a narrative.

I agree. I don't think this incident will make or break Corbyn but, rather like Ed Miliband's unfortunate photo with the bacon sandwich, it's one small piece that will go into forming an overall picture of the man and people will judge him on that overall picture. It might not be too late for him to get his act together.
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Sioni Sais
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quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
One can buy a jacket and trousers in the town where I live for £1 each. I'm not sure how much a properly fitting lounge suit would cost, but I'm guessing in the hundreds of pounds.

Hence, one can easily be excluded from a dress code which insists on a lounge suit rather than a jacket and tie.

Presumably if one buys a matching jacket and trousers for £1 each one has a suit?

While a suit from M&S is probably a couple of hundred quid I imagine that there are cheaper options out there (and charity shops often stock high quality second-hand clothing). I suspect that very few people are 'excluded' from wearing a suit. Certainly not a man who's been on an MP's salary for the last thirty years.

What's so special about a "suit"? In car dealerships and many other stores you see spotty 'Erberts wearing £39 suits from ASDA that do exactly nothing for their appearance. Golly, the suits shine more than their shoes do!

How about attacking Corbyn for the policies he wants to see adopted rather than his appearance or history? Cameron and Osborne are tidy dressers, but their policies are little short of evil. FWIW I think Corbyn will persuade enough of the public that this is so, and that is why the opposition to him is grabbing every straw it can to discredit him on a personal level with such desperation. If they get in an argument about policies then the Tories know it will do them no good.

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Anglican't
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quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
What's so special about a "suit"?



It's about dressing appropriately smartly at a formal occasion. I'm surprised that so many don't appear to grasp this.

quote:
How about attacking Corbyn for the policies he wants to see adopted rather than his appearance or history? ...FWIW I think Corbyn will persuade enough of the public that this is so, and that is why the opposition to him is grabbing every straw it can to discredit him on a personal level with such desperation. If they get in an argument about policies then the Tories know it will do them no good.
Well it's not an either / or. But I don't know what you mean by 'history'? I think people will judge him on what he's done in the past, which is why stories about the kind things he's said about rotten people are so damaging.

But to re-iterate, there's certainly no desperation: I was at a Tory mayoral hustings the other day and the man chairing the meeting proposed a round of applause for Jeremy Corbyn. I think there were a few cheers thrown in too.

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Doc Tor
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quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
What's so special about a "suit"?



It's about dressing appropriately smartly at a formal occasion. I'm surprised that so many don't appear to grasp this.


I'm equivocal over this. Perhaps he should have turned up in a doublet and hose, with a lovely brocade cloak. That's smart, right? Or in full sail, like my friend Umo sometimes does for church.

What you're saying is that there are social norms that are essentially a tyranny of conformity. Turn up looking like you ought and mouth the right words. It doesn't matter whether you believe in the occasion or the words.

Alternatively, what he wore was most likely what he wears for all formal and civic events in his constituency. But I find people who worry about 'formal' and 'dress codes' more than they ought have other, bigger problems.

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Anglican't
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I don't believe they're a tyranny at all. But I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on this one.
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Enoch
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quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
... How about attacking Corbyn for the policies he wants to see adopted rather than his appearance or history? ...

Quite right too. I'm not a Conservative. I'm not on the right. But I suspect virtually the only point on which he and I agree with each other is that the earth is not flat.

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L'organist
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posted by Doc Tor(on the subject of JC and what he wore to the St Paul's service)
quote:
I'm equivocal over this. Perhaps he should have turned up in a doublet and hose, with a lovely brocade cloak. That's smart, right? Or in full sail, like my friend Umo sometimes does for church.

What you're saying is that there are social norms that are essentially a tyranny of conformity. Turn up looking like you ought and mouth the right words. It doesn't matter whether you believe in the occasion or the words.

Alternatively, what he wore was most likely what he wears for all formal and civic events in his constituency. But I find people who worry about 'formal' and 'dress codes' more than they ought have other, bigger problems.

Its nothing to do with being 'smart' or not, or conforming in attitude: its to do with those accepted conventions about dress which are there as a mark of respect.

I know several people who, like Mr Corbyn, make a point of not wearing the expected/accepted clothing to things like weddings, funerals, etc. In almost every case this is more to do with them making a point - and the point we receive is that it is all about them. At a friend's mother's funeral someone turned up in a shocking pink suit: it caused immense distress to the widower and the deceased's children, and was definitely done as a 'look at me' gesture.

In the case of a politician, dressing in such a way as to cause comment may be a deliberate ploy in that it almost guarantees that people will spend their time discussing the latest sartorial solecism, and so the politician neatly diverts attention away from what they're saying.

Of course, in the case of Mr Corbyn it could just be that he is socially clueless and gauche, but I doubt it.

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I think if he had wanted to make a particular point about dress he'd have turned up in shorts and a polo shirt, and certainly not bothered to turn up in a dark coloured outfit.

If he'd wanted to be specifically distespectful to the queen I imagine he wouldn't have stood for the national anthem.

I think that some of the reaction over this stems from people not having much experience of what people do when they actually wish to convey disrespect.

People didn't express their issues with Thatcher's state funeral by not doing up a collar button and wearing a slightly mismatched jacket.

[ 19. September 2015, 16:58: Message edited by: Doublethink. ]

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mr cheesy
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quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:
Presumably if one buys a matching jacket and trousers for £1 each one has a suit?

Have you ever bought a jacket and trousers from a charity shop? The chances of getting both matching in your size are negligible - trust me on this.

quote:
While a suit from M&S is probably a couple of hundred quid I imagine that there are cheaper options out there (and charity shops often stock high quality second-hand clothing). I suspect that very few people are 'excluded' from wearing a suit. Certainly not a man who's been on an MP's salary for the last thirty years.
Bullshit.

You are seriously telling me that if he'd turned up in a shiny cheap suit, nobody would have complained?

It isn't about his salary, it is totally about the expectations some people have as to what is suitable clothing for a civil event.

And we're all assuming that there was a defined dress code. Do we know that for a fact?

[ 19. September 2015, 17:03: Message edited by: mr cheesy ]

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quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
In the case of a politician, dressing in such a way as to cause comment may be a deliberate ploy in that it almost guarantees that people will spend their time discussing the latest sartorial solecism, and so the politician neatly diverts attention away from what they're saying.

Of course, in the case of Mr Corbyn it could just be that he is socially clueless and gauche, but I doubt it.

I suspect what actually happened, is that having won the election he'd had about five seconds to think - or do much else than try to work out what to about the shadow cabinet.

His sons gave him a new jacket, as has been widely reported, and as it was the smartest thing he had he wore it with the smartest trousers he had.

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mr cheesy
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quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink.:
I suspect what actually happened, is that having won the election he'd had about five seconds to think - or do much else than try to work out what to about the shadow cabinet.

His sons gave him a new jacket, as has been widely reported, and as it was the smartest thing he had he wore it with the smartest trousers he had.

I wonder if he has ever had to be the focus of attention in this kind of civil event before. I doubt it.

My bet is that there was no dress code and that some are just looking for a reason to point to the strange shaped and bearded socialist who dared enter the hallowed ground of the ruling classes without asking their permission or playing by the unwritten rules.

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mr cheesy
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Another point - my grandfather was a career soldier. In retirement he regularly attended memorial events in churches, at war memorials, at regimental dinners and so on.

Given that he retired (I think) prior to the 1970s, he had no uniform.

He used to stand there in his only tweed jacket, with his medals and with tears rolling down his cheeks.

If you are saying that Corbyn was dressed inappropriately, then you are saying that my Grandfather was dressed inappropriately.

You might want to think about that.

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In other news, it turns out Corbyn's prior commitment that led to him turning down free tickets to the Rugy world cup was his constituency surgery.

Boris Johnson feels he has the wrong priorities.

[ 19. September 2015, 17:15: Message edited by: Doublethink. ]

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Ariel
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quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
If you are saying that Corbyn was dressed inappropriately, then you are saying that my Grandfather was dressed inappropriately.

You might want to think about that.

Your grandfather probably wasn't the newly elected leader of a political party. He was an old soldier who had every right to be at military ceremonies in his own right. Corbyn was an invited dignitary who wouldn't have been on the guest list for this particular occasion otherwise. He could have made an effort to treat it as the special occasion it was, he chose not to, the rest is history.
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Sioni Sais
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quote:
Originally posted by Ariel:
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
If you are saying that Corbyn was dressed inappropriately, then you are saying that my Grandfather was dressed inappropriately.

You might want to think about that.

Your grandfather probably wasn't the newly elected leader of a political party. He was an old soldier who had every right to be at military ceremonies in his own right. Corbyn was an invited dignitary who wouldn't have been on the guest list for this particular occasion otherwise. He could have made an effort to treat it as the special occasion it was, he chose not to, the rest is history.
Hello? Hello? Is there a sense of proportion in the house?

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quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink.:
In other news, it turns out Corbyn's prior commitment that led to him turning down free tickets to the Rugy world cup was his constituency surgery.

Boris Johnson feels he has the wrong priorities.

What's it got to do with Boris? Boris didn't even go to a school that plays it.

Doesn't it depend whether one is interested in a sport whether one goes to watch it or not? Some people would love to get free tickets to a Rugby match. Some would regard it as about the most boring way they could imagine spending an afternoon. At 66 (as he is) a person is entitled to decide they may not have long enough left to want to waste time doing things that they don't want to do.


What's much more irritating is the way every public figure, clergy person, new bishop or whatever feels they have to proclaim which football team they support. One wonders how often this is genuine or whether they imagine it demonstrates they are normal, one of the lads, the sort of chap one might like to have a drink with.

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Doc Tor
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Meanwhile, I understand you can now buy T shirts with "Threat to National Security" printed on them.

Guess which colour the T shirts are? I'm very tempted...

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Sioni Sais
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quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
Meanwhile, I understand you can now buy T shirts with "Threat to National Security" printed on them.

Guess which colour the T shirts are? I'm very tempted...

I'd expect them to be yellow and purple.

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quote:
Originally posted by Ariel:
[QUOTE] He could have made an effort to treat it as the special occasion it was, he chose not to, the rest is history.

He was dressed far more smartly than is normal for him, which suggests he did make an effort. It may not conform to your exacting standards circa 1857 but that's not the same thing.
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Penny S
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I've started to notice a number of men of his age group utilising Corbyn-chic. The beard, the dress code, round Waitrose*, in the church fair I went today, just on the street.

Were they there before and I just didn't notice, or do they suddenly feel liberated to be themselves?

*for non-UK readers, an upmarket supermarket, believed, falsely, to be more expensive than others, and in which the staff are sharers in the company profit.

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Ariel
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quote:
Originally posted by Arethosemyfeet:
He was dressed far more smartly than is normal for him, which suggests he did make an effort. It may not conform to your exacting standards circa 1857 but that's not the same thing.

Many people probably haven't a clue what his normal standards are. He's been a backbencher for years suddenly thrust into the limelight, how are we supposed to know what his usual dress sense is and make allowances for it on an individual scale. There is a formal dress code for these kinds of events, he didn't live up to it and it wasn't much of an effort IMO.
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Enoch
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quote:
Originally posted by Penny S:
I've started to notice a number of men of his age group utilising Corbyn-chic. The beard, the dress code, round Waitrose*, in the church fair I went today, just on the street.

Were they there before and I just didn't notice, or do they suddenly feel liberated to be themselves? ....

Very few of us can grow a beard in a week.

More importantly, and as information for blokes, more useful - do you find them chic? Is it a look that pulls?

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Ariel
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quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
More importantly, and as information for blokes, more useful - do you find them chic? Is it a look that pulls?

'Fraid not. Every time I see him I'm reminded of Bernard Cribbins as Wilf in the Doctor Who Christmas Special 2007.
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Doc Tor
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It strikes me that if you've already taken agin Corbyn, he can do nothing right.

And I think you're looking for 'Obi Wan' Corbyn. He's our only hope.

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Penny S
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quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
quote:
Originally posted by Penny S:
I've started to notice a number of men of his age group utilising Corbyn-chic. The beard, the dress code, round Waitrose*, in the church fair I went today, just on the street.

Were they there before and I just didn't notice, or do they suddenly feel liberated to be themselves? ....

Very few of us can grow a beard in a week.

More importantly, and as information for blokes, more useful - do you find them chic? Is it a look that pulls?

It needs to be allied with thoughtful conversation and an ability to listen and respect other people's opinions...

I think the long shorts are a bit of a push rather than a pull!

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Enoch
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quote:
Originally posted by Penny S:
... I think the long shorts are a bit of a push rather than a pull!

It's very difficult to work out what women find attractive, but I'd always suspected long shorts don't thrill many of you.

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Anglican't
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quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
Another point - my grandfather was a career soldier. In retirement he regularly attended memorial events in churches, at war memorials, at regimental dinners and so on.

Given that he retired (I think) prior to the 1970s, he had no uniform.

He used to stand there in his only tweed jacket, with his medals and with tears rolling down his cheeks.

If you are saying that Corbyn was dressed inappropriately, then you are saying that my Grandfather was dressed inappropriately.

You might want to think about that.

I don't quite understand the point here. Why would your grandfather wear his uniform after retiring anyway?

quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink.:
In other news, it turns out Corbyn's prior commitment that led to him turning down free tickets to the Rugy world cup was his constituency surgery.

Boris Johnson feels he has the wrong priorities.

The thing about being Leader of the Opposition is that you get invited to big, national events in your capacity as Leader of the Opposition. In particular, it was the opening ceremony he didn't up to, wasn't it?
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alienfromzog

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quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
How about attacking Corbyn for the policies he wants to see adopted rather than his appearance or history? Cameron and Osborne are tidy dressers, but their policies are little short of evil. FWIW I think Corbyn will persuade enough of the public that this is so, and that is why the opposition to him is grabbing every straw it can to discredit him on a personal level with such desperation. If they get in an argument about policies then the Tories know it will do them no good.

To be honest, they're not very good at that either:

Corbyn: We will renationalise the railways line, by line as the franchises come up for renewal
Conservative statement: This will cost billions


So, when the franchise holder walked away from the East Coast Mainline it performed better, had higher passenger satisfaction and returned a profit to the exchequer... yep sounds like a terrible policy to me.

{To be honest, the franchises are not the real problem, it's the fact that all the rolling stock was basically given to finance companies to lease back - that's where the real profiteering is. But franchises first is a very reasonable policy).

AFZ

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I believe I predicted this exact operationalisation of the policy earlier in the thread, I claim my five pounds [Big Grin]

(Before you get the franchise back, you reframe the massive public subsidy as the state buying back the rolling stock.)

[ 20. September 2015, 07:37: Message edited by: Doublethink. ]

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Ariel
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quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
It strikes me that if you've already taken agin Corbyn, he can do nothing right.

Oh, I don't know. He has three ideas worth pinching: ban HS2, stop fracking and introduce fair rent controls. But only three.

quote:
And I think you're looking for 'Obi Wan' Corbyn. He's our only hope.
This is not the droid I'm looking for.
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