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Source: (consider it) Thread: Purgatory: Thoughts on Jeremy Corbyn as Labour leader
Doc Tor
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quote:
Originally posted by Ariel:
quote:
And I think you're looking for 'Obi Wan' Corbyn. He's our only hope.
This is not the droid I'm looking for.
We had a choice of three droids and Corbyn. We voted Jedi.

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Forward the New Republic

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Doublethink.
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[crosspost]In response to comment about which Corbyn ideas might be good.[/crosspost]

That will be easier to evaluate after the party conference when we know what polciy platform will be under his leadership.

Best sunday paper attack today is that his great great grandfather ran a workhouse.

[ 20. September 2015, 08:09: Message edited by: Doublethink. ]

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Ariel
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quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink.:
Best sunday paper attack today is that his great great grandfather ran a workhouse.

I'm quite enjoying what the papers have been coming up with so far. One of the best has been Corbyn accused of eating surplus Costa sandwiches intended for the homeless.
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Penny S
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When there was no evidence of him eating them, only of walking off with them - and if he is anything like someone I know, who often redistributes such things, to hand them over to someone else who needed them.

And opening up what people's ancestors did to criticism could be very damaging to the other side.

[ 20. September 2015, 10:45: Message edited by: Penny S ]

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Anglican't
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quote:
Originally posted by Penny S:
When there was no evidence of him eating them, only of walking off with them - and if he is anything like someone I know, who often redistributes such things, to hand them over to someone else who needed them.

If this a reference to the incident at St Paul's, I very much suspect that he did eat them as he specified what sandwich he wanted. Unless one of Jeremy Corbyn's principles is to re-distribute only egg sandwiches to the needy.
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Badger Lady
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quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
What's so special about a "suit"? In car dealerships and many other stores you see spotty 'Erberts wearing £39 suits from ASDA that do exactly nothing for their appearance. Golly, the suits shine more than their shoes do!

I have worked in the Houses of Parliament. The vast majority of male MPs wear a lounge suit when the House is sitting (of varying degrees of quality and price). There is a dress code for parliamentary staff which reflects this.

So yes. I think by choosing perhaps not to own a suit, and certainly not to wear one in the Commons Chamber, Jeremy Corbyn is making a choice and a statement that he is different from the rest. Whether that is a good, bad, irrelevant statement is for others to decide.

[ 20. September 2015, 14:17: Message edited by: Badger Lady ]

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quetzalcoatl
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It's partly a rejection of the snobbery of the establishment, isn't it? I don't own a suit, and I've never worked anywhere where one was required. In fact, I never wear a tie, except at funerals and the like.

It's an interesting example of political semiotics, or something like that; I'm not sure if it's important or not. I think sometimes these symbolic things do become important, for example, the French Revolution tried to change all kinds of symbols, and some of them stuck, and some were reversed. The obvious example is the national anthem.

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mr cheesy
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quote:
Originally posted by Badger Lady:
I have worked in the Houses of Parliament. The vast majority of male MPs wear a lounge suit when the House is sitting (of varying degrees of quality and price). There is a dress code for parliamentary staff which reflects this.

So yes. I think by choosing perhaps not to own a suit, and certainly not to wear one in the Commons Chamber, Jeremy Corbyn is making a choice and a statement that he is different from the rest. Whether that is a good, bad, irrelevant statement is for others to decide.

I've never worked in the HoC, but am totally accepting that there are workplaces with a dress code.

However, I am totally not accepting that visitors to a church should comply to an arbitrary dress code which may or may not have been stated, which is only for to fit in with the uniform of the military and which is not expected of old soldiers.

The church is for everyone, as I was reminded during a Cathedral service this morning, whether you are wearing the full vestments like the clergy or shorts and sandals like the man opposite me in the pews.

Ultimately we're not trying to impress each other in church, but attempting to humble ourselves before the deity.

Given Mr Corbyn doesn't believe in the deity, it seems to me that some should be giving him more credit for respectfully putting up with a religious service he finds objectionable and for wearing muted clothing - rather than continuing with this nonsense about whether or not a non-matching jacket offends the memory of the war dead.

If you really think this is what my grandfather fought for and what his generation are thinking about in memorial services, then you are out of your tiny mind.

And if this really is the only thing that the majority of the country think about, then the idea of remembrance is truly broken.

And if those attending Cathedral services truly are bothered by the clothing people are wearing (which in my experience of attending a lot of Cathedral services, they're not at all), then maybe they should take a moment to contemplate why they're more bothered about other people than their own souls.

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Anselmina
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quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
It's partly a rejection of the snobbery of the establishment, isn't it?

It could be, which arguably is a good thing. Personally, I'm always torn between admiring and enjoying the pageantry and silliness of parliamentary stuff; and thinking, OTOH, that so much of it actually doesn't matter. Not really.

Alternatively, he could be asserting an individualistic eccentriciy of his own, at the expense of communal identity. Like the national anthem. How far do these things represent the unifying sense of belonging, of the people, or institution, he represents? And, therefore, how far can he deviate from that - insisting on his personal, albeit principled, individualism - without detracting from his role as focal point of unity for, eg, the Labour party, or the authority of Parliament?

A bit like a Bishop who prefers to wear mufti while leading worship? Debateably, it doesn't matter that s/he dresses traditionally for worship. But, equally, what is lost in sacrificing the focussing of the unity of the congregation, through accepted custom and symbolism, and their sense of being a recognizable community under a recognizable authority?

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quetzalcoatl
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I would think that Corbyn might criticize various Tory governments which set out to destroy a sense of community, e.g. by targeting poor and disabled people.

Hence, any claim of an overall British community could be seen as bad faith, since the rich are often not interested in the welfare of the poor. The inequality in our society seems to mock this idea of national unity.

I'm not saying that that leads to not wearing a suit! In fact, I don't know what C thinks about these things - it's possible that he is indifferent to clothes.

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Anselmina
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quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:


Given Mr Corbyn doesn't believe in the deity, it seems to me that some should be giving him more credit for respectfully putting up with a religious service he finds objectionable and for wearing muted clothing - rather than continuing with this nonsense about whether or not a non-matching jacket offends the memory of the war dead.


This reminds me a bit about poor Michael Foot who got such a roasting in the press about wearing a duffle coat to the Remembrance Day cenotaph service. Stuffiness, class snobbery? It was very unpleasant how they went after the poor guy.

Interesting interview with Corbyn in The Church Times - taken from a July interview in Third Way. Here are a few snippets:

'I'm not anti-religious at all.... I go to churches... mosques... temples... synagogues. I find religion very interesting. I find the power of faith very interesting... I think the faith community offers and does a great deal for people.... There doesn't have to be wars about religion.... we have much more in common than separate us.'

I have no idea how conciliatory he was being, how sincere. I don't know him or his work, so have no reason to doubt his sincerity. Just thought it was interesting.

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Anselmina
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quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
The inequality in our society seems to mock this idea of national unity.


I agree with your first statement, in the context you put it in. I suppose I was thinking more of the unity of his own party, looking to its head as a focal point of its own identity. And also the unity of parliamentary institutionalism; though maybe that's more about uniformity and conformity, than actual unity?

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quetzalcoatl
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Talk of unity seems farcical, when we see the media mounting ferocious attacks on Corbyn. They are so respectful of the office of Opposition leader that that they construct smears and misrepresentations about him. And that's just the Guardian!

Well, he's naive if he didn't expect that. He would get attacked whatever he did, I think the right wing are nervous about him, so they are trying to caricature him.

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Ariel
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quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
In fact, I don't know what C thinks about these things - it's possible that he is indifferent to clothes.

[Eek!] Well, that should liven up the PMQs [Ultra confused]
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Anglican't
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quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
Talk of unity seems farcical, when we see the media mounting ferocious attacks on Corbyn. They are so respectful of the office of Opposition leader that that they construct smears and misrepresentations about him. And that's just the Guardian!

Were you similarly outraged when, for example, William Hague was widely mocked by the press for wearing a baseball cap?
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Doublethink.
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I do think there is a significant difference between saying so-and-so looks silly in a choice of clothing (though I think that is a dodgy concept of news in itself) and saying - via that sartorial choice I can tell he doesn't give a toss about our war dead.

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George Spigot

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What the actual fu*k?

Is this real?

British army could stage mutiny under corbyn says senior serving general.

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Ariel
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Quite possibly. Chuka Umunna thinks that if Corbyn is elected there could be riots. The farming community aren't exactly impressed by the new shadow agriculture minister either.
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Sioni Sais
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quote:
Originally posted by George Spigot:
What the actual fu*k?

Is this real?

British army could stage mutiny under corbyn says senior serving general.

Scaremongering, and we've seen it before.

The armed forces already have plenty of reasons to mutiny from the lousy treatment the have had from recent and current government. More deployments on operations, real-term cuts to pay and pensions which are shown up by difficulties in retaining experienced personnel.

We heard this back in the mid seventies when that fine soldier General Sir Walter Walker stated that Prime Minister Harold Wilson was a 'proven Communist. He, and a few others of less stature, got in a rare froth about the trade unions and tried to get some support from, well, almost anywhere, including South Africa.

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Robertus Liverpolitanae
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quote:
Quite possibly. Chuka Umunna thinks that if Corbyn is elected there could be riots. The farming community aren't exactly impressed by the new shadow agriculture minister either.
There were actual riots only a few years ago under The Coalition.

If your response to someone not singing the National Anthem is mutiny, you need to acquire a sense of proportion. Quickly.

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Ariel
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quote:
Originally posted by Robertus Liverpolitanae:
If your response to someone not singing the National Anthem is mutiny, you need to acquire a sense of proportion. Quickly.

I don't think that's the reason...
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Robertus Liverpolitanae
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You mean there's actually reasons which justify treason.

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Ariel
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YMMV, but it isn't about the National Anthem. You might like to have a look at the link in George Spigot's post upthread.
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chris stiles
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quote:
Originally posted by Ariel:
YMMV, but it isn't about the National Anthem. You might like to have a look at the link in George Spigot's post upthread.

There's absolutely no reason for a coup or mutiny, but people appear to require far less than that to work themselves up to a lather though.
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George Spigot

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I find it incredible. I mean I doubt it would happen but to even threaten it. It would ultimately mean a lot of people would end up having to try and engage in direct action against our army. There are a lot of people who would not stand to see the end of democracy in this country.

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Robertus Liverpolitanae
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I did read it. Denouncing Corbyn for alleged treasonous utterances in the past andt hreatening future treasonous actions in response seems bizarrely hypocritical.

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Anglican't
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They obviously serve a very good brandy in the officers' mess.
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Penny S
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quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:
quote:
Originally posted by Penny S:
When there was no evidence of him eating them, only of walking off with them - and if he is anything like someone I know, who often redistributes such things, to hand them over to someone else who needed them.

If this a reference to the incident at St Paul's, I very much suspect that he did eat them as he specified what sandwich he wanted. Unless one of Jeremy Corbyn's principles is to re-distribute only egg sandwiches to the needy.
I didn't see a source which gave that info - can you direct me to it? I only saw photos.
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chris stiles
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quote:
Originally posted by Penny S:

I didn't see a source which gave that info - can you direct me to it? I only saw photos.

It is total bollocks, and google would have told Anlican't what Guido evidently didn't.
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leo
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quote:
Originally posted by Anselmina:
Interesting interview with Corbyn in The Church Times - taken from a July interview in Third Way.

Christians on the Left (formerly the Christian Socialist Movement) did a series of interviews with the candidates. Corbyn was the only one who shlowed any religious literacy.

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Penny S
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I heard a woman on LBC this morning complaining that the left wing press were making a terrible fuss about something Cameron is reported as doing at Oxford, when no-one has been reporting about what Corbyn has been up to in more recent stages of his life. Which she somehow knew about, despite the silence.

The press revealing hideous secrets about Cameron and cannabis* is the Daily Mail.

*And a pig's head.

None of which is as bad as what we already knew about the Bullingdons.

[ 21. September 2015, 10:09: Message edited by: Penny S ]

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lowlands_boy
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The book by Lord Ashcroft is being exclusively serialised in the Dail Mai(/fail/heil/wail/whatever). I wasn't aware they'd become left wing?

Surely the worst story about Jeremy Corbyn is that he was party to failing to declare £3.45 of electoral expenses when acting as an agent for a candidate in 1979! I mean it's shocking isn't it?

Given the choice between reading about that and #piggate I know which I'd choose. Neither, so back to work....

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Alan Cresswell

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quote:
Originally posted by lowlands_boy:
The book by Lord Ashcroft is being exclusively serialised in the Dail Mai(/fail/heil/wail/whatever). I wasn't aware they'd become left wing?

They can now claim to not be politically biased, and will drag up muck on leaders of all parties. Yep, they're politically neutral, and pigs fly (though, the drugs do help with that).

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Sioni Sais
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quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
quote:
Originally posted by lowlands_boy:
The book by Lord Ashcroft is being exclusively serialised in the Dail Mai(/fail/heil/wail/whatever). I wasn't aware they'd become left wing?

They can now claim to not be politically biased, and will drag up muck on leaders of all parties. Yep, they're politically neutral, and pigs fly (though, the drugs do help with that).
I reckon the Daily Mail is getting up steam to support an attempt to replace Cameron in a couple of years time, citing the "soft line" he has taken on immigration, Europe and benefits cuts. They probably feel he is out of touch with mainstream Conservatives and much of the party.

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lowlands_boy
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Well, he's said he wouldn't contest the next election, and his CV will always include winning an election outright. I don't know how much politicians really think about "protecting their legacy" - but his achievement will be quite simple - "I won".

So I don't know how much they really care about who comes next. So the Daily Mail presumably want a proper hardliner - which of course the leader of the Labour Party ought never to be....

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Alan Cresswell

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quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
I reckon the Daily Mail is getting up steam to support an attempt to replace Cameron in a couple of years time

With friends like this ...

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Alan Cresswell

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It does show that Corbyn isn't the only party leader who has been too friendly with ham ass.

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Doublethink.
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I wonder if Corbyn will be able to persuade his mps not to oink during the next pmqs.

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Touchstone
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quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
It does show that Corbyn isn't the only party leader who has been too friendly with ham ass.

[Overused]

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Jez we did hand the next election to the Tories on a plate!

Posts: 163 | From: Somewhere west of Bristol | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984

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This amuses me more than it should: http://i100.independent.co.uk/article/the-russian-embassy-is-trolling-david-cameron-over-pig-gate--Z1UsuwVu8x

(It is safe for work.)

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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell

Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005  |  IP: Logged
Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322

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Most of us did things when we were young that embarrass us now.

I'm sure she's too nice a person to do such a thing. But suppose the legends recently reported are true. Suppose also that at some time Jeremy Corbyn were to drop Diane Abbott from the Shadow Cabinet. And suppose then, she were to public an article in the press about how he snored, or how he had a tiny dingle-dangle. Would that be any different or any more relevant than pig-gate?

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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson

Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008  |  IP: Logged
Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984

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Very true.

The stuff about his prior knowledge re Lord Ashcroft's non-dom status is much more significant.

I also would *not* want the labour mps to do barnyard impersonations.

I do think what the Russian Embassy is doing is interesting though - do you normally troll like this of you are a diplomatic mission ?

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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell

Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005  |  IP: Logged
George Spigot

Outcast
# 253

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The David Cameron pig thing is (or should be) completely irrelevant to politics.

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C.S. Lewis's Head is just a tool for the Devil. (And you can quote me on that.) ~
Philip Purser Hallard
http://www.thoughtplay.com/infinitarian/gbsfatb.html

Posts: 1625 | From: Derbyshire - England | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Leorning Cniht
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# 17564

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quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink.:

I do think what the Russian Embassy is doing is interesting though - do you normally troll like this of you are a diplomatic mission ?

Diplomacy comes in many forms. Not all of those forms involve playing nice towards the other guys so that they will like you.
Posts: 5026 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2013  |  IP: Logged
quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740

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Russian activity on the internet is well known; some people think they employ thousands to do all kinds of stuff, defending Russia obviously, but also more bizarre stuff. But then maybe many countries do this.

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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.

Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011  |  IP: Logged
Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984

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quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink.:

I do think what the Russian Embassy is doing is interesting though - do you normally troll like this of you are a diplomatic mission ?

Diplomacy comes in many forms. Not all of those forms involve playing nice towards the other guys so that they will like you.
Indeed, but what do you think they are intending to achieve ?

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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell

Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005  |  IP: Logged
LeRoc

Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216

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A victory for their commie friend Corbyn. Duh.

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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)

Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984

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Yeah, cos Russian government support is going to play well with the electorate, I don't think.

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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell

Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005  |  IP: Logged
Marvin the Martian

Interplanetary
# 4360

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quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink.:
quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink.:

I do think what the Russian Embassy is doing is interesting though - do you normally troll like this of you are a diplomatic mission ?

Diplomacy comes in many forms. Not all of those forms involve playing nice towards the other guys so that they will like you.
Indeed, but what do you think they are intending to achieve ?
Maybe they're just sending the message that Russia doesn't have to worry about whether it upsets Britain or not.

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Hail Gallaxhar

Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
Anglican't
Shipmate
# 15292

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quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink.:
quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink.:

I do think what the Russian Embassy is doing is interesting though - do you normally troll like this of you are a diplomatic mission ?

Diplomacy comes in many forms. Not all of those forms involve playing nice towards the other guys so that they will like you.
Indeed, but what do you think they are intending to achieve ?
Cause a bit of chaos, try to destabilise things here and there? There's presumably a reason why Russia Today liked to cover the Scottish independence referendum so thoroughly, for example.
Posts: 3613 | From: London, England | Registered: Nov 2009  |  IP: Logged



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