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Originally posted by mousethief:
And no, it doesn't fit ... but I knew that anyway ...

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So you were merely being disingenuous? That makes it all better.

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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...

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Originally posted by mousethief:

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Originally posted by Gamaliel:
I'm not sure Eutychus has understood your bottom-line point ... I didn't take that to mean that all Protestant congregations have a single bottom-line to which everyone must adhere ... rather I understood it as some kind of bottom-line tends to be how Protestants define themselves ...

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Precisely.

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Gamaliel: Mousethief has already acknowledged that continental Northern Europe is the exception that proves the rule.

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Originally posted by mousethief:

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Originally posted by Eutychus:
Well, there is a world of difference between a "high view of Scripture" and "toeing the party line" as a "bottom line".

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Not when having a high view of Scripture is tacitly defined as agreeing with what the group derives from its high view of scripture.

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You can agree to disagree (in some places) on whether the Parousia is pre-trib or post-trib or pre-millenial or post-millenial. But not whether or not homosexuality is a sin. If you think it isn't, you either shut your mouth or risk disfellowshipping.

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Again, this is true in some protestant congregations (and round here, more evangelical ones) but by no means all. I think your experience might possibly be pond-influenced.

In some twelve years of existence, the church I help lead has so far managed to avoid adopting a confession of faith at all. I'm pretty sure opinions are divided on homosexuality; we work hard to keep our priorities right (if you want to find out where I stand on this these days, you'll have to visit Dead Horses). As to abortion, my wife and I took a position very similar to yours for someone in our church in, as it happens, a far less extreme situation.

There is certainly an evangelical constituency where I am that acts much as you describe, but I think it is confined a) to certain denominations and b) to certain levels of hierarchy. I think that on most DH issues, such churches are out of step with the majority of under-35s in their congregations.

With regard to the subject of this thread, this contributes to my suspicion that the leaders of GAFCON and their ilk are not necessarily representative of their flocks. Most sheep on both sides of the debate just want somewhere shibboleth-free to graze safely; it's the bad shepherds that muddy the waters

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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy

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Originally posted by LeRoc:
Again, continental Europe is where Protestantism started. Why would we be considered the exception?

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Eutychus:LeRoc, as stated above I think that if it's true at all, my speculation is truer for nonconformists than historic/established protestant churches.

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Yes, I think your experience is interesting. I know that you work in France; but is it in a nonconformist Protestant setting? Like I said before, another thing is that Protestants are a minority in that country, and surely that is going to make a difference too.

Look, I'm not trying to start a North Sea War here (we need a better term for this, analogous to 'Pond War' ) I realise that this is an English-speaking forum, so obviously people are going to be talking from an Anglo-Saxon perspective. And I don't mind reading generalistic statements from time to time; these help to focus our thoughts sometimes. But I also think it's clear that when mousethief talks about Protestantism, he may have an idea in mind that is very different from my image of Protestantism.

There are obviously differences between Anglo-Saxon and Continental Protestantism (by which I roughly mean mainline Protestantism in the Netherlands, Germany and Scandinavia). Which of the two is the 'standard' and which is the 'exception'? I think that for a lot of Continentals, setting the Anglo-Saxon experience as the 'standard' would feel wrong.

(This difference is one of the reasons why it's interesting for me to be on the Ship. Sometimes I say something here that is perfectly acceptable in mainline European Protestantism. Something we don't even talk about because everyone excepts it. But when I say it here rather innocently, people go: "What the fuck are you on about??" It's interesting to get this feedback sometimes.)

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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)

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Originally posted by Eutychus:
In some twelve years of existence, the church I help lead has so far managed to avoid adopting a confession of faith at all.

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mousethief: LeRoc, the founders of these Northern European denominations were hardly the milquetoast "anything goes" types you are painting today. They had effing WARS about these things. Or at least using these things as excuses for wars, which couldn't be done if these things didn't mean something to somebody, more than which brand of biscuits we're going to have during fellowship hour.

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mousethief: I believe I asked before but you haven't answered. What would it take to be disfellowshiped from one of these undogmatic Norther churches? Is it at all possible? Is it "anything goes"? No position or behavior is too out there?

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Originally posted by LeRoc:
If I look at the very MotR Protestant church that my parents attend in the Netherlands (I'm not even talking about the experimental alt-worshippy group I go to), I can't remember anyone being dismembered from that church. I'm not sure if there is a procedure for that, and can't think of any position of behaviour why someone would be.

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mousethief: So do they not have any doctrinal content at all?

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Originally posted by mousethief:

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Originally posted by Gamaliel:
I'm not sure Eutychus has understood your bottom-line point ... I didn't take that to mean that all Protestant congregations have a single bottom-line to which everyone must adhere ... rather I understood it as some kind of bottom-line tends to be how Protestants define themselves ...

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Precisely.

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Originally posted by mousethief:
Why evangelize in a Christian country at all, one that has an indigenous church?

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So what makes you different from the Catholics?

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Originally posted by Eutychus:
I'd like to think we equip people to get to grips themselves with what the Bible means for them.

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Originally posted by Nick Tamen:
It seems to me that the key lies in a different sense of how Catholics, Orthodoxen and Protestants "define" themselves.

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Originally posted by mousethief:
I've been trying to say something very like this throughout this conversation. I don't think we're that far apart; maybe seeing the same elephant from different sides.

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Originally posted by mousethief:
I'm still not quite ready to buy that there is nothing that distinguishes you between the Catholics and Orthodoxen on your local diocesan ecumenical group.

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for you it all comes down to people's relationship with the Bible.

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That's not what I said either. How can you have a relationship with a book? The Bible itself tells us you can't (2 Corinthians 3 notably)!

If I really must say what I think "it all comes down to", at present I'd say it comes down to whether the Holy Spirit dwells in us.

I think the Bible is useful to the ministry of the Spirit to the extent that it's illuminated by the Spirit. The gathered church also plays a part in the work of the Spirit. But at the end of the day, yes, I think God's aim is for each to know him, independently of any other human teacher or intermediary.

That's how I understand the New Covenant promise in Jeremiah 31:31

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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy

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Originally posted by mousethief:
...Protestantism [is] based on ideas, and the glue that holds Protestant churches together is agreeing on ideas. .. The Catholics see themselves primarily as bound together by the sacraments and their shared history. (Orthodoxen the same.)

... what keeps the great rock [of RCC or Orthodox church] together isn't minutiæ of doctrine but the sacraments and the continuity of clergy and worship.

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Originally posted by LeRoc:

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Eutychus: ...protestant groups self-define by a doctrinal line.

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I don't think this is in the case with mainline protestantism in...most of Northern Europe. You're in a certain protestant group because your father was there, and his father,

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Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:

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Originally posted by Mudfrog:
That would be the mission of groups like GAFCON, I guess - to preserve the Scripture as the only source document for Christian faith and practice.

In other words, what is happening is that the conservatives are not being asked to be 'loving' and 'accepting';... they are being asked to throw aside their whole approach to Scripture and faith.

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No, they are not. They are being asked not to piss on TEC. Really, I don't care what other people believe, until they start wanting to piss on me for not agreeing with them.

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Originally posted by Gamaliel:
@Eutychus ... so you're looking to work yourself out if a job and make yourself redundant then?

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Originally posted by Pomona:
I think though, that it depends on the local community....do you think, Eutychus, that being in a majority-Catholic country (well as far as France can be a religious country!) impacts the way it plays out in your church?

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Originally posted by Gamaliel:

I've come across TEC priests on-line who are obsessed with the Royal Family and with English manners and customs in a way that would embarrass many English - and other British people - more generally.

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Originally posted by mousethief:
What would it take to be disfellowshiped from one of these undogmatic Norther churches? Is it at all possible? Is it "anything goes"? No position or behavior is too out there?

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Originally posted by Nick Tamen:

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Originally posted by mousethief:
I've been trying to say something very like this throughout this conversation. I don't think we're that far apart; maybe seeing the same elephant from different sides.

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Yes. I was just hoping that describing the elephant from the other side might help.

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Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
But what intrigues me is the "middle ground" of groups of churches that don't agree on points some think important, and yet gladly associate with each other. That's what the Anglican communion has been like, (and what the Southern Baptist Convention was like before the power battle to destroy that broad welcome and impose beliefs that had been optional, like 6 day creation) - a large gathering of independent churches that disagreed on many points of theology but embraced each other as fellow churches that share a mutual unity at a level deeper than the disagreements.

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Originally posted by Eutychus:
I have been actively considering how to hand over leadership of the church for a little while now. Far less than ticking doctrinal boxes, and even than a checklist regarding DH issues (either way), I'm looking for people who I think share the same sort of outlook. A mix of Bible knowledge, grace (something I took, in terms of teaching if not in practice, from NFI), openness to the Spirit, open-handedness, and a pastoral heart.

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Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:

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Originally posted by mousethief:
What would it take to be disfellowshiped from one of these undogmatic Norther churches? Is it at all possible? Is it "anything goes"? No position or behavior is too out there?

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You have asked this and some other questions, which I gather you have conclusions about.

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Respectfully, the question of "is there a position or behaviour is too out there" and similar: I think these are the wrong questions (other Anglicans may disagree, this is the western Canadian expression). The question is how to people come together to worship, in a faithful way, but also recognizing several important things about humans. That none of us have the answers, that we are better to be part of the world than to not be part of it, that we should open our doors to any who would come in and seek, and we should not reject people who want to come in.

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Originally posted by Lyda*Rose:
Meet and Right So To Do:

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The 1979 American Book of Common Prayer is horrible.

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A dissenting view here: I have liked it. Not all of it, mind, but enough to be happy about participating in the liturgy. And my church only tweaks it a tiny bit.

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Originally posted by Meet and Right So to Do:
An interesting response from the Episcopal bishop of Springfield, who is Anglo-Catholic:

[removed extensive quote due to fair use considerations: readers can refer to the link]

http://www.episcopalspringfield.org/living-in-the-bonds-of-tough-love/

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Originally posted by Gamaliel:
What sort of 'domestic' reactions are you interested in Palimpsest?

There's been coverage in the news, of course - fairly extensively in the quality press and on the BBC - but there's no major ground-swell of interest other than among people like us who like to debate things on Ship-of-Fools or clergy who have a strong view one way or t'other.

It wasn't even mentioned in our parish church on Sunday.I can't speak for anyone else though.

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originally posted by Gamaliel:
It looks like we could have a situation where TEC becomes the new ACNA with ACNA becoming the official Anglican church in the USA and TEC occupying the position formerly held by ACNA ... that or rebel or schismatic Anglicans ...

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originally posted by Gamaliel:
I've come across TEC priests on-line who are obsessed with the Royal Family and with English manners and customs in a way that would embarrass many English - and other British people - more generally.

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Americans can be obsessed with all of that and not care one whit about the Church of England or the Anglican Communion. All the old ladies in every parish I've ever served remember a time when High Tea was quite the to do at the parish. Most of them could care less about the Anglican Communion. We are in love with Merry Old England and the UK as it existed from say 1816-1945. After Churchill, the whole thing went to shit.

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originally posted by Gamaliel:
Indeed, the young ACNA priest I met last year was a big real ale enthusiast - good man - and although clearly not 'English' -culturally obviously very much an Anglophile.

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originally posted by Gamaliel:
But what is it that holds the thing together ... it's not as if we've all got Byrd and Cramner ...?

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Americans can be obsessed with all of that and not care one whit about the Church of England or the Anglican Communion. All the old ladies in every parish I've ever served remember a time when High Tea was quite the to do at the parish. Most of them could care less about the Anglican Communion. We are in love with Merry Old England and the UK as it existed from say 1816-1945. After Churchill, the whole thing went to shit.

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Originally posted by Enoch:
What does PBS stand for in this context please?

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Originally posted by Barnabas62:

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Originally posted by Meet and Right So to Do:
An interesting response from the Episcopal bishop of Springfield, who is Anglo-Catholic:

[removed extensive quote due to fair use considerations: readers can refer to the link]

http://www.episcopalspringfield.org/living-in-the-bonds-of-tough-love/

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Meet and Right So to Do

Welcome to the Ship. The editing of your post may well have puzzled you, but fair use of quotes is restricted here to just a few lines (about half a dozen normally), both for copyright purposes and also because of the alternative use of links, which does not run any copyright risk.

If you want to refer to a particular segment of a link, just direct Shipmates to the start and finish lines, or heading reference, or paragraph number (if available).

Barnabaas62
Purgatory Host

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