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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Kerygmania: Apocalyptic writings
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Gramps49
Shipmate
# 16378
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Posted
My adult learning community will be working on Revelations in the next couple of weeks as well. I am looking forward to this and would hope to be able to use this forum to raise questions as they come up.
Frankly, I am struggling with the issue of eschatology myself. My Doubting Thomas bit gets into high gear when I approach Revelations.
The end of Revelations, for instance, predicts a new heaven and a new earth; yet my cosmological understanding is that in a few billion years our universe will basically burn itself out. I struggle with reconciling the two points of view.
Posts: 2193 | From: Pullman WA | Registered: Apr 2011
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Moo
Ship's tough old bird
# 107
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Posted
AIUI Revelation is not predicting the future. It is telling, in highly symbolic language, that God is in charge and he will take care of his people.
Moo
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Kerygmania host
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See you later, alligator.
Posts: 20365 | From: Alleghany Mountains of Virginia | Registered: May 2001
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Moo:
One other thing I noticed is Revelation 7:9 quote:
After this I looked, and there was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, from all tribes and peoples and languages, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, robed in white, with palm branches in their hands.
I hadn't realized that Heaven included people from every tribe, nation, and language. I had thought that Revelation was narrower.
Moo
This has long been my favorite passage in the book, and it gets preached on pretty much every year. (Which you'd expect with missionaries!)
[ 03. November 2015, 02:45: Message edited by: Lamb Chopped ]
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
I spent much of last Sunday in the narthex explaining to my son that Revelation is not really in chronological order except in the broadest sense--that it is more like wandering through an art or photo gallery, where you get various shots from various perspectives of the same few events. If one makes no sense, move on to the next and see what you get out of it. And to beware of taking literally details and descriptions which were meant to be understood symbolically.
I think a book of paintings based on the chapters of Revelation would be very interesting, particularly if it had work from many different artists.
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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DonLogan2
Shipmate
# 15608
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Oscar the Grouch:
...If anyone suggests that the book is a timeline for the Endtimes (or that they have worked out who 666 (or 616) refers to), take that person outside and shoot them. It is kindest thing to do for all concerned...
I assume this is tongue in cheek?
However, how would an inclusive group go about their study (all things biblical) with someone who believed it was about end times and the whole can of worms associated with conspiracies such as the illuminati, con-trails, RC church all dovetailing into each other?
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“I have of late, but wherefore I know not, lost all my mirth... "
Posts: 359 | From: the very depths | Registered: Apr 2010
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Moo
Ship's tough old bird
# 107
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Posted
Earlier in the thread someone raised the question of why prophecies would be preserved that would not take effect for at least two thousand years.
I think that's an excellent question.
Moo
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Kerygmania host
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See you later, alligator.
Posts: 20365 | From: Alleghany Mountains of Virginia | Registered: May 2001
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David Goode
Shipmate
# 9224
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Moo:
Earlier in the thread someone raised the question of why prophecies would be preserved that would not take effect for at least two thousand years.
I think that's an excellent question.
It is. And it's not without precedent if you think about Christian typology in the OT, for example, Abraham's sacrifice of Isaac, Moses lifting up the serpent in the wilderness, Jonah in the belly of the fish, and many others.
Posts: 654 | From: Cambridge | Registered: Mar 2005
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Jammy Dodger
Half jam, half biscuit
# 17872
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
quote:
Originally posted by Moo:
One other thing I noticed is Revelation 7:9 quote:
After this I looked, and there was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, from all tribes and peoples and languages, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, robed in white, with palm branches in their hands.
I hadn't realized that Heaven included people from every tribe, nation, and language. I had thought that Revelation was narrower.
Moo
This has long been my favorite passage in the book, and it gets preached on pretty much every year. (Which you'd expect with missionaries!)
Indeed. And there is a great link to Matt 24:14 - that the end will only come after the gospel of the kingdom has been preached to the whole world, all nations - therefore making the statement in Rev 7:9 possible.
(I think it was Tom Wright that pointed out somewhere that this is the only criteria that indicates the end - all the others preceding it nation rising against nation, etc are NOT to be taken that way)
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Look at my eye twitching - Donkey from Shrek
Posts: 438 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2013
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Freddy
Shipmate
# 365
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by David Goode:
quote:
Originally posted by Moo:
Earlier in the thread someone raised the question of why prophecies would be preserved that would not take effect for at least two thousand years.
I think that's an excellent question.
It is. And it's not without precedent if you think about Christian typology in the OT, for example, Abraham's sacrifice of Isaac, Moses lifting up the serpent in the wilderness, Jonah in the belly of the fish, and many others.
Yes, an excellent question.
I think that the answer is that societal change takes place over long periods of time.
It's not that the prophecy won't take effect for over two thousand years. Rather it is that the processes that these prophecies describe take huge amounts of time to reach maturity. The reason for that is that they involve human free choice, not to mention such things as technological development. The world grows up.
The point is that, according to my belief anyway, Revelation describes the solution to all of humanity's problems. World peace. Not a quick fix. ![[Cool]](cool.gif)
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"Consequently nothing is of greater importance to a person than knowing what the truth is." Swedenborg
Posts: 12845 | From: Bryn Athyn | Registered: Jun 2001
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shamwari
Shipmate
# 15556
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Posted
There is a basic error going on here.
The assumption is that prophecy is foresight and prediction.
Essentially prophecy is insight, not foresight; it is forth-telling not foretelling.
We all too often confuse the baby with the bathwater.
Posts: 1914 | From: from the abyss of misunderstanding | Registered: Mar 2010
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Mamacita
Lakefront liberal
# 3659
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by shamwari:
There is a basic error going on here.
The assumption is that prophecy is foresight and prediction.
Essentially prophecy is insight, not foresight; it is forth-telling not foretelling.
We all too often confuse the baby with the bathwater.
I agree that prophecy is not fortune-telling, as its use in common parlance implies.
But at the same time I think shamwari's post sets up too limiting a dichotomy. Prophecy is rooted in a sharp observation of what is happening in the present - Isaiah, Ezekiel, Jeremiah, and all those OT guys were speaking/writing within a particular context of time and place - but they weren't just critics. They were describing potential consequences as well.
[ 03. December 2015, 17:45: Message edited by: Mamacita ]
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Do not be daunted by the enormity of the world’s grief. Do justly, now. Love mercy, now. Walk humbly, now. You are not obligated to complete the work, but neither are you free to abandon it.
Posts: 20761 | From: where the purple line ends | Registered: Dec 2002
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Freddy
Shipmate
# 365
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by shamwari:
There is a basic error going on here.
The assumption is that prophecy is foresight and prediction.
Essentially prophecy is insight, not foresight; it is forth-telling not foretelling.
I agree that most of the writings of the prophets are insight, not foresight. Very little of it appears to deal with the future at all.
However, some of it does deal explicitly with the future, and claims the ability to foretell events. The gospels rely repeatedly on that understanding.
We live at a time when people don't believe that it is possible to know the future in any specific, miraculous sense. That skepticism was not shared by those who wrote the Scriptures.
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"Consequently nothing is of greater importance to a person than knowing what the truth is." Swedenborg
Posts: 12845 | From: Bryn Athyn | Registered: Jun 2001
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
--The best book I've ever found on this topic is "The Coming Of God", by Sr. Maria Boulding. From what I remember, she goes all the way through the entire Bible narrative, all of God's purpose--and not in a glossing over way. She builds up to Revelation, the end of the world, and the end of the book.
When I discovered the book, I took a quick glance at the end. The last line was something like "We are unconditionally, irrevocably loved". I figured a book on the end of time that came to that conclusion was worth reading--and it was.
There are some quotes on the Witnesses To Hope blog. Admittedly, they're not specifically on Revelation. But they're part of the fabric of the book, and you can get a taste of her style.
--Julian(a) of Norwich's "Revelations Of Divine Love" also has good stuff on The End. "All shall be well, and all shall be well, and all manner of things shall be well. And all this shall we see in God, without end."
--IIRC, "Silent Voices, Sacred Lives: Women's Readings for the Liturgical Year" (by Barbara E Bowe (Editor), Kathleen Hughes, R.S.C.J. (Editor), Carolyn A Osiek (Editor)) has some examples of Judaeo-Christian apocalyptic literature by women--even from oracles (like the Sibyl).
YMMV.
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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Freddy
Shipmate
# 365
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
When I discovered the book, I took a quick glance at the end. The last line was something like "We are unconditionally, irrevocably loved". I figured a book on the end of time that came to that conclusion was worth reading--and it was.
I agree about the conclusion. I feel the same way.
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"Consequently nothing is of greater importance to a person than knowing what the truth is." Swedenborg
Posts: 12845 | From: Bryn Athyn | Registered: Jun 2001
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Mamacita
Lakefront liberal
# 3659
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Posted
Al Eluia: That's fascinating. I will check it out. Thanks.
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Do not be daunted by the enormity of the world’s grief. Do justly, now. Love mercy, now. Walk humbly, now. You are not obligated to complete the work, but neither are you free to abandon it.
Posts: 20761 | From: where the purple line ends | Registered: Dec 2002
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