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Source: (consider it) Thread: Purgatory: Rev. Colin Urquhart and the Charismatic Renewal
Hedgerow Priest
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Hi...This is a thread in which I hope we can get some theological reflection upon Charismatic history in the UK going. Essentially, 20 or so years ago, I read a first edition of Colin's first book "When The Spirit Comes", which narrates the renewal of the Parish of St Hugh, Lewsey, Luton, in the Diocese of St Albans, in the early 1970s.

From what I can gather, St Hugh's was a Catholic. Parish, and Urquhart, who trained at KCL, was of a similar background. Nowadays, he is a non denominational pastor/neo Charismatic " apostle" of Kingdom Faith Church, and his teaching is that of the "word of faith" movement.

I suppose I am just fascinated by the journey he has made (and equally fascinated by the journeys other Charismatic pioneers made in a different direction - Most notably Michael Harper..from Langham Place....via Charismatic renewal...to the Orthodox Church)

I am just posting this, in the hope that people will reflect, theologically, historically, and maybe anecdotally, on the ministry of Rev. Colin Urquhart, when he was an Anglican priest, and after he went independent. Not grinding any doctrinal axe etc, just very interested to see what this throws up

[ 05. December 2016, 00:25: Message edited by: Gwai ]

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chris stiles
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I attended the 'Faith' conference sometime in the 1990s. At the time I got the impression of a group of people living mostly in their own bubble who had bought into mild versions of word-faith teaching.

AFAICT they have continued in much the same vein ever since.

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mr cheesy
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I don't know anything about this guy and the period was before my time. But I would say that there is a a paper-thin wall between (some) Charismatic Anglicans and other charismatic denominations. One leader once told me that if he wasn't employed by the Anglican church he would be a Pentecostal and another regularly attended conferences by and had many links with the Vineyard movement.

In my view there is something insidious and deliberate about this, in that (for some) it appears that they remain in the Anglican church not because of any great affection for it, nor really due to any great commitment to its distinctive doctrines, but primarily due to economic reasons. In my view such people should have the courage of their convictions and take the economic hit of training and ministry rather than expecting the Anglican set-up to support them.

Anyway. There is a fairly considerable churn between various types of house and charismatic church and the Anglican church, in England if not elsewhere. Various Anglican types are on the very edges of the Anglican set-up, some with strange structures which seem to have been created in order to try to keep them within the tent. Some seem to fall out (occasionally taking congregations with them), but I don't think this happens as often as it might be suspected.

I don't have numbers, but I suspect that more ministers come in from these kinds of backgrounds to the Anglican church than leave. I can think of several Anglican vicars I know who were previously in various charismatic denominations, although not all of them are particularly charismatic now.

I don't know anything much about Anglican leavers to the Orthodox, although it appears that at least some of the Orthodox clergy in England were previously Anglican priests.

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Sipech
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I could go on about this for quite some time, as I've got family links with St Hugh's as well as St Luke's in Brighton (also an Anglican church), which is where there was a schism, out of which came New Frontiers.

From the more Methodist end, we have Ichthus, which was started up by Roger & Faith Forster, which is where I'm currently based.

What is it that you want to know?

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Gamaliel
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I've got old copies of Renewal magazine going back to about 1964 I think. They belonged to my mother-in-law and are on loan to someone at the moment.

Looking at them it's interesting to trace a trajectory from a mixed economy as it were - with RCs and Anglo-Catholics along with evangelicals towards what might be considered a narrower focus.

I was involved with the 'new church' scene in the 1980s and we considered Colin Urquhart's Kingdom Faith thing a bit 'out there' - but then, he'd probably have said the same about us.

I've met people who used to go to the Kingdom Faith conferences and my impression was always that the emphasis on healing and so on was somewhat overblown - but that could apply to much of the charismatic scene in general.

I'm not sure where Urquhart and Kingdom Faith sit in the landscape now but my impression was that he was out on a limb as far as most Anglican renewalists were concerned when he left Luton and wasn't particularly welcome either among some of the restorationist 'new church' types who were interested in ploughing their own furrow and weren't that interested in former vicars and so on.

So I have tended to see Urquhart as something of an outlier - although there may have been regional and north/south reasons for that.

The other interesting thing about early copies of Renewal is that Michael Harper's trajectory appears less surprising in retrospect as he was clearly interested in Orthodoxy early on and for all his involvement with Stott and other Anglican evangelicals he had inclinations higher up the candle.

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Gamaliel
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On the Orthodox thing, a fair proportion of Orthodox priests in the UK are former Anglicans - but we are talking about small numbers.

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rolyn
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I used to look out for him on the Sky channel way back. Did rather like his style when I was in the widly enthusiastic born again phase.
Interesting to hear his Ministry is still thriving.

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Bibaculus
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quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
On the Orthodox thing, a fair proportion of Orthodox priests in the UK are former Anglicans - but we are talking about small numbers.

I think that pretty much all the non-Greek or Slav Orthodox priests in England are ex-Anglicans, often ex-Anglican clergy, excepting a very few from elsewhere. That is inevitable in a Church with is either immigrant or convert.

I recall Bishop Richard Hare, who did his best to support the charismatic movement in the CofE, to show that at least one bishop loved them and was one of them, and to keep them in the Anglican fold. I fear in my youthful arrogance I simply saw him as a traitor to his Anglo-Catholic background, but I think he probably did much good work in giving Anglican charismatics an episcopal rudder.

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Gamaliel
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I remember Richard Hare - the 'Pentie from Ponte' (Pontefract).

I brushed briefly through the Anglican charismatic scene on my way out into 'restorationism' and the 'new church' thing ...

I retained a soft-spot for it in the way that it combined the charismatic with the more sacramental aspects ... I remember some memorable communion services. By the time I was involved though, the charismatic stuff tended to happen at evening services with 'the Holy Spirit bit in the middle' as we jokingly called it.

There was certainly a sense of the numinous - singing in tongues and so on but these days - and with my wife being rather musical and able to explain the mechanics - I rather tend to think that this was a form of ecclesial 'scat' singing with people harmonising quite easily around a series of simple notes ...

Not a difficult effect to achieve.

Although there were times when it sounded truly transcendent and otherworldly ...

I'm not sure Colin Urquhart's ministry is thriving ... is it? I always thought it was a shadow of its former self - as indeed is much of the charismatic scene these days away from some of the bigger name places ... but then, it was always a bit like that with key conferences and key congregations playing a role and making it all look bigger than it actually was.

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Eutychus
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I remember Richard Hare concluding a CoE liturgy, ("now let the very gates of Hell tremble: in the name of Christ, Amen!"), and not just singing in tongues, but a spine-tingling Jubliate Deo, I think in a service led by Colin Urquhart, both at St Nick's Durham. I don't think it can all have been merely froth and bubble.

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Gamaliel
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Tell it not in Gath, but the other day I was speaking to a veteran Anglican renewalist - from an Anglo-Catholic background - and the impression I got was one of weariness and disillusionment.

He'd been a big noise around here in the charismatic renewal in the 1970s and he now felt marginalised and cast aside ... he felt that New Wine was no longer interested in the 'renewal of the whole Church' - as he put it, but only in ploughing a rather narrow and rather shallow furrow - as he saw it.

He's retired and still preaches here and there but it is clear to me that his more sacramental/liturgical approach is no longer welcome with some of the newer breed of New Wine-y charismatic Anglican clergy -- which is a shame, in my view.

His view of the charismatic scene is that is has largely dissipated and become very shallow indeed.

I have to say, I do agree with him that there was rather more 'depth' back in the day ... but I don't think all is lost. Don't expect me to go down the New Wine route though ...

There could be sour grapes in his attitude of course, he told me that other people were getting the credit for things he'd pioneered and done - so there are obviously two sides to the whole thing - as with everything else ...

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chris stiles
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quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
I remember Richard Hare concluding a CoE liturgy, ("now let the very gates of Hell tremble: in the name of Christ, Amen!"), and not just singing in tongues, but a spine-tingling Jubliate Deo, I think in a service led by Colin Urquhart, both at St Nick's Durham. I don't think it can all have been merely froth and bubble.

The problem usually starts when people try to replicate very singular experiences, and this is my impression of what 'Kingdom Faith' have tried to do ever since.

The other mistake is when people assume a gracious move of the spirit necessarily baptises a particular approach or theology.

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Gamaliel
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Cross-posted with Eutychus ...

No, I don't think it was all froth and bubble - in the same way as I don't believe the 'new churches' were all froth and bubble either ...

But I do think something has been lost - both on the more sacramental side of the charismatic renewal if you like - and also on the more 'non-conformist' side.

With the former you had a drawing from the tradition of things both new and old, as it were ... and with the latter you had a good, strong emphasis on expository preaching which also helped to 'ground' things.

I don't see a great deal of evidence of either on the current charismatic scene - at least not to the same extent as hitherto.

I don't think we can recapture old glories or live in the past - we are where we are and we need to move on - but other than a few pockets here and there, I don't see a great deal on the contemporary charismatic scene that interests or inspires me.

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Eutychus
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Well, my particular take c.1998 was enshrined in a sermon about Elijah's changing experiences of God, from being fed supernaturally by the brook (there's a river, there's a river, there's a river flowing from the throne...) to going to the widow of Sarepta. I felt God was calling us to move on from Toronto-type experiences to social action.

(This was a few months before the late Simon Pettit's memorable NFI Brighton conference message on Remember the Poor, which is actually online).

The poor started turning up in our church not long after that (uninvited!), and, well, here we are.

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Bibaculus
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There was a lot of talk of 'renewal' in the Holy Spirit back in the 70s. Even the Church Union seemed to get in on the act. I guess the idea of keeping it sacramental (Richard Hare once told me of a 'long playing Mass' he had been to - it lasted for hours, with all the charismatic interruptions) was good, and very Anglican. I was never involved - really not my cup of gin - but it does all have a period feel to it now.

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Gamaliel
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Yes, I'd agree that it has a 'period feel' to it ...

As for Eutychus's shift in paradigm ... I don't think that's all that unusual historically - insofar that this is the direction in which the Quakers went and they were arguably the first 'charismatic movement' post-Reformation.

I wouldn't be at all surprised to see the milder and more moderate end of the Vineyard and New Wine-y spectrum as well as 'emerging' style Baptists and others heading more in that kind of direction in future.

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Gamaliel
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It's probably a matter for another thread but I'd also suggest that the 1994/96 period - the 'Toronto Blessing' and its aftermath - marked the high-water mark for a particular style of charismatic revivalism. Things have fragmented or gone in different directions since ... some going further down that route into loopy-doopy land whilst others have moderated their approach and started to engage more in social action or to draw from older traditions.

There was only so far you could take the charismatic dimension. Once you'd had everyone singing in tongues or 'slain in the Spirit' and so on there was nowhere really left to go - you either had to retrace your steps or else branch out in a different direction.

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cliffdweller
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quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
It's probably a matter for another thread but I'd also suggest that the 1994/96 period - the 'Toronto Blessing' and its aftermath - marked the high-water mark for a particular style of charismatic revivalism. Things have fragmented or gone in different directions since ... some going further down that route into loopy-doopy land whilst others have moderated their approach and started to engage more in social action or to draw from older traditions.

There was only so far you could take the charismatic dimension. Once you'd had everyone singing in tongues or 'slain in the Spirit' and so on there was nowhere really left to go - you either had to retrace your steps or else branch out in a different direction.

I would make similar observations re the American charismatic movement. I don't read that as negative (I don't think Gamaliel does either?) but simply a maturing/ balancing/ helpful engagement.

In the US, the Pentecostal movement begins in earnest with the Azusa St Revival in 1906. Mainstream churches wanted nothing to do with this (interestingly, recent scholarship suggests this disavowal had as much or more to do with racism-- Azusa St. was uniquely segregated, something still illegal in Southern states-- than with ecstatic experiences). I would suggest that ecclesiastical segregation was what sent American Pentecostalism off on some wild trajectories, by cutting us loose from historic Christianity. IMHO, the primary benefit of the 1970s charismatic movement was the re-engagement-- the opportunity for Pentecostals to speak with mainstream Christianity and vice-versa. All of which led to the current situation which is much like Gamaliel described in the UK.

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Martin60
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I encountered his stuff in the mid 90's when my cult came in from the cold and some of us went down that cul-de-sac. One senior pastor I respected recommended him. I bought his works. Four of us got swept up at the Happy Clappy Thrappy Bappies. Mooing, swooning, clucking damnationists. I got THE laughter. That WAS awesome. Best laugh I EVER had. I got in to correspondence with the reformed cult leader enthusing about it all and he burst my bubble with material which resonated with my study of brainwashing decades before. Hank Hanegraaff's APES amongst other things. Altered States of Awareness, Peer Pressure, Enhanced Expectation, Suggestibility. My then wife was completely away with fairies, visions and shall we say visceral catharsis.

It IS all froth and bubble. ALL.

After mine was burst I asked her permission to say one thing. She gave it. I said two words. They burst her bubble instantly.

The words were 'Parallel play'. We never went again. The fellowship was riven with multiple sex scandals from the top shortly after.

The parallel play was epitomized by an old married couple who both attended, full on, every week. They never interacted with each other. You had to be told they were married.

I only ever read one paragraph of Urquhart in all of this. It described his little child babbling in the back of the car. And him 'realising' it was Tongues.

Dross. All of it. All part of doing anything and everything apart from what Jesus would do. Us playing in the fields - which my wife saw for days on end until it turned nasty - of our own projection.

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opaWim
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The history of the Charismatic Renewal/Movement is strewn with in-consequences.
It arose out of the desire to incorporate key elements from the Pentecostal Movement in the classical churches. In other words: Pentecostalism without the customary fundamentalism, in the church were you were born into, your church. It was never the intention to form new denominations. But they did form nevertheless.
An annoying obfuscation was caused by the appropriation of the label ¨Charismatic¨ by Pentecostal-ish communities that wanted to distance themselves from the sometimes unedifying fanaticism of certain old-fashioned Pentecostal churches.
As an active participant from 1975 onwards in the Charismatic Renewal, I have seen the protestant component slowly petering out, while the RC component has largely been rendered harmless by a return to an obedient traditionalistic attitude that some of us in the 70's were desperately trying to escape.

It was all very good while it lasted, but it was inevitable that a lot of the key-figures from the beginning, like Colin Urquhart, ended up in other places.

I myself, while still participating in the CR, have moved on to the Remonstranten. Who could have foreseen that 40 years ago [Big Grin]

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Sipech
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quote:
Originally posted by opaWim:
It arose out of the desire to incorporate key elements from the Pentecostal Movement in the classical churches. In other words: Pentecostalism without the customary fundamentalism, in the church were you were born into, your church. It was never the intention to form new denominations. But they did form nevertheless.

Not all. Ichthus sought the support of the local churches before embarking on starting a new church with the particular aim of re-evangelising a local area in south London. If they hadn't got the backing of the local churches (of course, with the proviso that there wouldn't be any poaching from other congregations) then they wouldn't have gone ahead.

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Baptist Trainfan
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Now that is very different from the way that a certain well-known church started operating locally when I lived in London - they made it perfectly clear that they wanted to "go it alone", with the inference that other churches "hadn't got the Spirit" as they had.

And there was a lot of fuss in my present location when something similar happened. The "established" churches were most upset that the newcomer simply failed to acknowledge the local Body of Christ.

[ 01. April 2016, 16:19: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]

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Hedgerow Priest
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quote:
Originally posted by Sipech:
.

What is it that you want to know?

Thank you....I am interested in the early years of Urquhart's ministry in Luton and even before; his formation as a Priest was not in an evangelical tradition - trained at Kings, and clearly he had a Catholic and sacramental background; the cover of his first book shows vestments, servers etc. At what point in the history of St Hugh's did these things disappear?

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Eutychus
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quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
Now that is very different from the way that a certain well-known church started operating locally when I lived in London - they made it perfectly clear that they wanted to "go it alone", with the inference that other churches "hadn't got the Spirit" as they had.

I don't think Ichthus started out with such a charismatic/pentecostal ethos. It was more Open Brethren on evangelistic steroids and a chunk of Wesleyan holiness.

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mr cheesy
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quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
And there was a lot of fuss in my present location when something similar happened. The "established" churches were most upset that the newcomer simply failed to acknowledge the local Body of Christ.

I think many are a lot more mellow and less uptight about these things now. Nobody really needs to "ask permission" from other churches to do anything anywhere these days.

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arse

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Sipech
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quote:
Originally posted by Hedgerow Priest:
I am interested in the early years of Urquhart's ministry in Luton and even before; his formation as a Priest was not in an evangelical tradition - trained at Kings, and clearly he had a Catholic and sacramental background; the cover of his first book shows vestments, servers etc. At what point in the history of St Hugh's did these things disappear?

Ah, that part I'm not clear on. My relative didn't take up her post at St Hugh's until the mid 90s, which was when I first became aware of the church. My parents had some of Urquhart's books from when they moved from an Anglican church to a charismatic baptist, but I didn't become aware of the link with St Hugh's until after I'd shaken the dust of Luton off my feet.

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Gamaliel
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That's a good question, Hedgerow Priest.

Broadly speaking, I'd suggest that a semblance of traditional Anglican vesting and so on went on within the Anglican charismatic renewal until around the mid-1990s ... but I might be wrong.

There certainly wasn't much of that around in the late-90s in the charismatic evangelical Anglican circles I knew - but then, perhaps they had come from the lower end of the spectrum in the first place ... although with a certain amount of ceremonial.

Other than conversations with individuals, I've not personally experienced the RC charismatic thing nor the charismatic side of the Anglo-Catholic spectrum, so I can't say a great deal about those.

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Let us with a gladsome mind
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Barnabas62
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quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
Now that is very different from the way that a certain well-known church started operating locally when I lived in London - they made it perfectly clear that they wanted to "go it alone", with the inference that other churches "hadn't got the Spirit" as they had.

I don't think Ichthus started out with such a charismatic/pentecostal ethos. It was more Open Brethren on evangelistic steroids and a chunk of Wesleyan holiness.
Plus Graham Kendrick and the late Ken McGreavey. At least for a period.

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chris stiles
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quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
Well, my particular take c.1998 was enshrined in a sermon about Elijah's changing experiences of God, from being fed supernaturally by the brook (there's a river, there's a river, there's a river flowing from the throne...) to going to the widow of Sarepta. I felt God was calling us to move on from Toronto-type experiences to social action.

Yes, I wasn't meaning to sound dismissive - it's just that it seemed to me that 'Kingdom Faith' was punctuated by high notes - such as the one you mentioned - that were then drawn out ad nasauem (in the early 90s, there was the whole 'the angels will be heard during the night' bandwagon that they got on - this would have been before toronto - probably just before).

I can't remember a particular emphasis on the more anglo-catholic background that Urquhart came from - he did robe up occasionally, but it seemed to be more part of the flim-flammery at the time.

On reflection, I could imagine an Urquhart like figure featuring in the books of the intellectual lovechild of Robertson Davies and Susan Howatch.

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L'organist
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posted by Hedgerow Priest
quote:
Thank you....I am interested in the early years of Urquhart's ministry in Luton and even before; his formation as a Priest was not in an evangelical tradition - trained at Kings, and clearly he had a Catholic and sacramental background; the cover of his first book shows vestments, servers etc. At what point in the history of St Hugh's did these things disappear?
I think it has something to do with a parish outing to a Billy Graham meeting at Wembley around 1966/1967 - fairly certain it was after that things at Lewsey started to move away from mainstream.

[ 01. April 2016, 22:41: Message edited by: L'organist ]

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ExclamationMark
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quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
Now that is very different from the way that a certain well-known church started operating locally when I lived in London - they made it perfectly clear that they wanted to "go it alone", with the inference that other churches "hadn't got the Spirit" as they had.

And there was a lot of fuss in my present location when something similar happened. The "established" churches were most upset that the newcomer simply failed to acknowledge the local Body of Christ.

That's happened in pretty much every town on my acquaintance (including the present one). It's still happening here - mind you many of the churches locally are stuck in a 30 year old time warp harking back to the days when the ecumenical approach did seem to be trail blazing. All the larger churches are, at best, arms length with this ecumenical stuff.

In the "place I was before" we had an average of one group a year coming to plant a church as apparently we're weren't doing church correctly.

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ExclamationMark
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I came across Kingdom Faith in the past but it sailed far too close to the prosperity gospel for my liking.

We also had a couple of people in a church we attended who had been in KF. One was made an elder with indecent haste and he was very peculiar - laying hands on washing machines when they didn't work and all that malarky. It transpired that he wasn't really a very nice man at all.

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Eutychus
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quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
In the "place I was before" we had an average of one group a year coming to plant a church as apparently we're weren't doing church correctly.

You too? We're inundated with them. To add insult to injury, as they arrive in this "virgin territory" they expect us to help them with language training and childcare! I keep trying to point them to largeish rural towns with no installed protestant churches at all, but somehow the Spirit never seems to lead there [Disappointed]

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Curiosity killed ...

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Kingdom Faith Camp still runs, now led by Colin Urquhart's son and daughter-in-law. I know a small vociferous group of people who go every year to be "fed" to continue in their local Church of England church.

From what I've heard there is far too much prosperity gospel and accounts of healing that cannot be confirmed*. The 10% tithing and wealth that pours down is something I've heard a lot and been castigated for not trusting enough in God†. I have also heard accounts (from the ministers invited to attend) of the mooing and barking in services.

* They all came back one year with stars in their eyes talking about healings, including someone with breast cancer, that weren't on the Kingdom Faith camp website as part of the good news or anywhere else to be found. Cynical me wondered about someone giving thanks for recovery following lots of treatment.
† That particular group thanks God, not the people who have done the work, made pretty huge sacrifices to enable things, given their hard earned cash or whatever, for anything given.

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Edward Green
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I also re-read When the Spirit Comes last year. The impression I got was that Urquhart's spiritual renewal came with a Christian conversion.

I am still trying to get my head around the theological liberalism of the 1970's and the church and clergy that it produced. I went through a very Secular Theological period myself and even that doesn't seem to resonate. I am unsure what a lot of people coming out of theological college actually believed, or what confidence they had in the Christian faith. But dressing up was certainly involved!

In terms of Charismatic Renewal and the sacramental traditions Michael Ramsey was more than sympathetic. Walsingham was a centre of renewal. And back in the 60's in the US it was the High Church wing of the Episcopal Church that saw renewal. Theologically spiritual gifts and ecstatic experience have always been part of catholic thought.

There is I suppose also the link from Pentecostalism, back through Holiness and Revival teaching to the Wesleys who can be read as proto-'modern catholics' rather than as proto-evangelicals.

The common strand is an expectation of the supernatural beyond conversion and the scriptures. This does not always sit well with Reformed theology.

Roman Catholic Charismatic renewal is still huge. There are two Anglo-Catholic charismatic renewal groups in the CofE. Both are small.

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Sipech
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In my years in Horsham, I knew folk at Kingdom Faith, but I wouldn't have described it as a prosperity gospel church. It was much more into mysticism and claims of the supernatural.

At the more wacky end, there were some who were heavily into John Crowder's version of christianity (see here for a critical take).

Under that influence, some broke off from the nearby CLC (an Elim Pentecostal church) and formed....well.... this - this last link comes with a severe health warning!

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Gamaliel
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It might be huge, but the RC charismatic renewal in the UK is all but invisible to evangelical charismatics here and to Protestants more generally - for all the ecumenism of recent decades.

I've heard from an RC priest of my acquaintance that RC renewalists sing the same worship songs as the evangelical charismatic constituency and act in a similar way - only with a more Catholic eucharistic theology.

I have to say, I wasn't impressed by the so-called 'tongues' on the programme - a bunch of RC yoof sat round gabbling in tongues in a way that anyone could do after two minutes instruction in how to do it.

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chris stiles
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quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:

I've heard from an RC priest of my acquaintance that RC renewalists sing the same worship songs as the evangelical charismatic constituency

They also have their own set of worship bands/musicians who play in similar style (google Matt Maher etc.).
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Edward Green
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I am not sure RC Renewal is invisible at all levels. Certainly locally it is visible and acknowledged by local charismatic leaders. The Alpha Course videos speak of Pope Francis as a prophetic voice. Soul Survivor work with RC renewal groups.

In terms of music there is certainly overlap - just like Anglicans singing Methodist Hymns.

But some material is clearly theologically catholic:

Our God is Here

None of this explains why the charismatic movement is so evangelical.

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Gamaliel
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I could posit some reasons why the charismatic movement is so evangelical - but it's probably material for another thread ...

I'd also suggest that it is perfectly possible for the charismatic dimension to flourish in Reformed soil - as per New Frontiers and other evangelical groups from the more reformed/Reformed end of the spectrum.

On one level, I think it's to do with the way that the 'means of production' in evangelical charismatic circles in the UK - the books, conferences, music etc are dominated by a small number of publishing houses and so on - with a particular background historically and theologically.

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chris stiles
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quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:

On one level, I think it's to do with the way that the 'means of production' in evangelical charismatic circles in the UK - the books, conferences, music etc are dominated by a small number of publishing houses and so on - with a particular background historically and theologically.

Modern technology means that these things can scale down - and this is something of which a a lot of smaller denomination in the US appear to have taken advantage. Granted, by UK standards these denominations are still quite numerically big - and generally the groups in the UK that have got on board with this approach tend to be the ones that were more organised to start with (HTB et al).

In fact, I suspect a lot of the resentment of such groups is driven by exactly this kind of thing - even if it expresses itself quite differently.

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Gamaliel
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Sure, yes, I think that's right.

Meanwhile, coming back to a point Edward Green made about liberal theology in the 1970s ... if my chronology is right and if what l'Organist says is right about Urquhart's parish hoing to Billy Graham rallies in 1966/67, then we're talking about the early to mid-60s perhaps when he was training.

My mother-in-law was an 'early-adoptor' of the Anglican charismatic renewal in the early 1960s through the ministry of Michael Harper.

There were precursors, though and my mother-in-law has some rather odd proto-charismatic, somewhat mystical Anglican books dating from the 1950s.

It's many years since I read 'When The Spirit Comes' so I can't comment on whether Urquhart's 'renewal' experience appears like a conversion rather than a Wesleyan/Pentecostal 'second-blessing' thing ... but then I don't tend to see these things in neat sequential phases.

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Gamaliel
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Sure, yes, I think that's right.

Meanwhile, coming back to a point Edward Green made about liberal theology in the 1970s ... if my chronology is right and if what l'Organist says is right about Urquhart's parish hoing to Billy Graham rallies in 1966/67, then we're talking about the early to mid-60s perhaps when he was training.

My mother-in-law was an 'early-adoptor' of the Anglican charismatic renewal in the early 1960s through the ministry of Michael Harper.

There were precursors, though and my mother-in-law has some rather odd proto-charismatic, somewhat mystical Anglican books dating from the 1950s.

It's many years since I read 'When The Spirit Comes' so I can't comment on whether Urquhart's 'renewal' experience appears like a conversion rather than a Wesleyan/Pentecostal 'second-blessing' thing ... but then I don't tend to see these things in neat sequential phases.

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Edward Green
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quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
... then we're talking about the early to mid-60s perhaps when he was training.

Yep, the book was written in 74. So 50-60's.

His own perspective is different to the one I got from the book. See
AAH.

It is very hard to put ourselves in the shoes of those in another time.

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Hedgerow Priest
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Hi Edward....yes I had previously read that AAH interview article. It seem that CU had mystical experience and awareness of God as a child through his involvement in Church and prayer, and during his time at Theological college..which was actually in the early 1960s..he had a Charismatic experience and spoke in tongues, as narrated in When the Spirit Comes. It was shortly after he moved to St Hugh's that he had a subsequent experience, a 'revelation of what it meant to be a son of God'

I think the contradiction between having an awareness of God in prayer and experience, on the one hand, and the dry liberalism which was the order of the day in the early 1960s on the other, causes him to ultimately move away from the liturgical tradition in which he was formed, ultimately to embrace evangelical revivalism.

Certainly in WTSC he writes positively about his relationship with the Bishops, and sees the experience of Renewal- in relation to baptism and confirmation as consisting of "entering into the meaning of all that God wants to give us in these great sacramental acts" In later writings a revivalist streak emerges, and I am guessing that he formally parted ways with the C of E over infant baptism, which he now does not believe in.

Some years ago I looked him up in Crockfords, and if memory serves me correctly, he was ordained in 1963, served as a curate in Cheshunt, then a Priest in Charge in Letchworth, before moving to Luton in 1970. I would be fascinated to know more about his ministry in these formative years....

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Gamaliel
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Yes, that would be interesting, but I'm not sure what more we could tell us than what we can glean from his own accounts.

I can't 'prove' this scientically, but my impression is that there are more liberal, Anglo-Catholic or MoR Anglican clergy who are former evangelicals than t'other way around ... although these days, of course, some of these labels are porous and there aren't always firm divisions between these categories.

There have always been to-ing and fro-ing between churchmanships. The poet Wilfred Owen worked for a time with a vicar who'd gone from being a fervent Anglo-Catholic to a fervent evangelical.

As I've said upthread, Renewal Magazine became increasingly evangelical and revivalist in tone as time went by. I remember a 'testimony' article by an Anglo-Catholic priest written in very evangelical terms describing a move to what he saw as a lively evangelical faith from dry ritualism.

I suspect it's another of these both/and things ... I've visited high up the candle parishes which have exuded a sense of mystery and the numinous. I've visited others that seem to be run by anally-retentive obsessives who marshal everybody with military precision and within an inch of their lives - so that it's like a liturgical Changing of The Guard at Buckingham Palace.

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Baptist Trainfan
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quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
I can't 'prove' this scientically, but my impression is that there are more liberal, Anglo-Catholic or MoR Anglican clergy who are former evangelicals than t'other way around ...

Yes, I agree. And sometimes the ex-Evangelicals are the strongest critics of their former position, regarding it as "ill-informed" and "unthinking" - which isn't true of all Evangelicalism.
quote:
I've visited high up the candle parishes which have exuded a sense of mystery and the numinous. I've visited others that seem to be run by anally-retentive obsessives who marshal everybody with military precision and within an inch of their lives - so that it's like a liturgical Changing of The Guard at Buckingham Palace.
A case of the detail and the ritual taking precedence over the object, methinks. Equally, some Reformed-type churches provide worship which is intellectually stimulating and draws one to God, while others seem to offer little more than an abstruse theology lecture with hymns.

On a wider point, we know from the history of the Catholic Apostolics that it is possible to conjoin ritualistic worship with a measure of charismatic fervour. But does the rationality of the Reformed tradition effectively preclude that? Does anyone know of any charismatic Churches of Scotland, for instance?

[ 05. April 2016, 08:19: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]

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chris stiles
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quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:

On a wider point, we know from the history of the Catholic Apostolics that it is possible to conjoin ritualistic worship with a measure of charismatic fervour. But does the rationality of the Reformed tradition effectively preclude that? Does anyone know of any charismatic Churches of Scotland, for instance?

To what extent is that mainly down to the personality types that inhabit these circles though? [and yes, I know a couple of somewhat charismatic Churches of Scotland - I've not spent much time there, so couldn't really comment on how typical/atypical they are].
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Edward Green
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A particular Reformed stream is both anti-charismatic and anti-catholic. They reject the supernaturalism of both the sacraments and the charismatic, of both the 'Tradition' and the ecstatic.

The supernatural becomes expressed in regeneration and in the faithfulness of scripture (or rather 90% of them).

At John MacArthur's strange fire conference a few years back I caught this nugget:

quote:
Calling Catholics our brothers in Christ, that is an offence to the Gospel
- Justin Peters

Through the conference came the suggestion that the Charismatic movement is actually making Protestantism more Catholic again.

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Eutychus
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quote:
Originally posted by Edward Green:
Through the conference came the suggestion that the Charismatic movement is actually making Protestantism more Catholic again.

That old chestnut has been around for a long time. The argument is that charismatic unity is on the basis of woolly experience and not doctrine.

[ 05. April 2016, 11:21: Message edited by: Eutychus ]

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