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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Purgatory: U.S. Presidential Election 2016
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ldjjd
Shipmate
# 17390
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lyda*Rose:
I think that a Trump nomination would be a gift to the Democrats.
In my opinion, all the GOP aspirants so far have been and will continue to be be a gift to the Democrats.
At least if Trump gets the nomination, and he is demolished by Hillary, Republicans can say that he isn't really a Republican.
In fact, some are already saying that, and some are even suggesting that he may be a stooge planted by by Democrats (perhaps those crafty, cunning Clintons?).
Posts: 294 | Registered: Oct 2012
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ldjjd
Shipmate
# 17390
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Posted
Trump tries to do damage control after enraging Hispanics. In the process, he manages to alienate Asians by mocking their sterotypical broken English.
The man will certainly go down in the anals of history.
Posts: 294 | Registered: Oct 2012
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
Kelly--
I doubt that Trump cares--except he may well think that they shouldn't be here, either.
Reality, reason, history, and common sense are beyond his ken.*
*"...and Barbie, and all my other action figures!"--Lorn, "Angel".
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
Croesos--
Thanks for that link! Wonderful article. ![[Snigger]](graemlins/snigger.gif)
Also on that site: "Donald Trump White Supremacist Roundup".
Some scary stuff there. I worry that a lot of people may actually vote for Trump, for all sorts of reasons--including being his fans. There are lots of people who agree with him, and not just avowed white supremacists. So many people were/are terrified of having Obama as president...
![[Help]](graemlins/help.gif)
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ldjjd:
The man will certainly go down in the anals of history.
![[Overused]](graemlins/notworthy.gif)
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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Og, King of Bashan
Ship's giant Amorite
# 9562
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ldjjd:
Also, the clown car is doing a fine job of energizing Hispanics. Jeb and Rubio are doing little to help matters.
I guess this is another example of white privilege in this country. I'm white, and the candidates jump all over themselves to appeal to me. Meanwhile, a group of Latinos organize a forum in Iowa on immigration and no-one other than O'Malley and Chafee deign to attend.
So your choice is open hostility on the right and at least we aren't openly hostile on the left. And Sanders supports the Dream Act, but other than that seems to be in the "Dey turk err jurbs" camp.
What a thrilling choice.
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"I like to eat crawfish and drink beer. That's despair?" ― Walker Percy
Posts: 3259 | From: Denver, Colorado, USA | Registered: May 2005
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Pigwidgeon
Ship's Owl
# 10192
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Og, King of Bashan:
I guess this is another example of white privilege in this country. I'm white, and the candidates jump all over themselves to appeal to me. Meanwhile, a group of Latinos organize a forum in Iowa on immigration and no-one other than O'Malley and Chafee deign to attend.
At this point in the election cycle, I think they're looking for large donations rather than votes. They probably figure they have more hope for the big bucks from white audiences than they do from Latinos.
(Trump has plenty of his own big bucks, but he's the exception to every rule.)
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"...that is generally a matter for Pigwidgeon, several other consenting adults, a bottle of cheap Gin and the odd giraffe."
~Tortuf
Posts: 9835 | From: Hogwarts | Registered: Aug 2005
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saysay
Ship's Praying Mantis
# 6645
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
tangent:
She quite possibly did, since it wasn't the first time. But as an aside, I do find the persistent (in a number of venues/contexts) "on some level you must have known" narrative re adultery tiresome blame-the-victim nonsense.
![[Killing me]](graemlins/killingme.gif)
Oh, my goodness.
Never change.
At this rate we'll have a successful write-in vote for Omar, no problem.
More realistically I suspect a lot of people are simply not going to vote in this election. The government redistributes wealth upwards no matter who is in office, so what does it matter?
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"It's been a long day without you, my friend
I'll tell you all about it when I see you again"
"'Oh sweet baby purple Jesus' - that's a direct quote from a 9 year old - shoutout to purple Jesus."
Posts: 2943 | From: The Wire | Registered: May 2004
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
Kelly--
I doubt that Trump cares--except he may well think that they shouldn't be here, either.
Reality, reason, history, and common sense are beyond his ken.*
*"...and Barbie, and all my other action figures!"--Lorn, "Angel".
Do I give a shit what Trump cares about? I am just gleefully noting how he is eroding his potential Republican base.
[ 27. August 2015, 23:08: Message edited by: Kelly Alves ]
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by saysay:
More realistically I suspect a lot of people are simply not going to vote in this election. The government redistributes wealth upwards no matter who is in office, so what does it matter?
I think the US Government (rather like the UK Government) just allows this to happen, rather than having more progressive* taxation policies. The gap between rich and poor grows naturally.
(* Definition: A progressive tax is a tax in which the tax rate increases as the taxable amount increases.)
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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Og, King of Bashan
Ship's giant Amorite
# 9562
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ldjjd:
The Clintons have always been extremely popular among African-Americans. I'm quite certain that they will be out in force (perhaps only slightly dimimshed from 2008 and 2012).
Are you sure nothing has changed since 1992? Many within the Black Lives Matter movement blame the Clintons for the anti-crime policies that have resulted in mass incarceration of non-violent black offenders.
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"I like to eat crawfish and drink beer. That's despair?" ― Walker Percy
Posts: 3259 | From: Denver, Colorado, USA | Registered: May 2005
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Crœsos
Shipmate
# 238
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Og, King of Bashan:
quote:
Originally posted by ldjjd:
The Clintons have always been extremely popular among African-Americans. I'm quite certain that they will be out in force (perhaps only slightly dimimshed from 2008 and 2012).
Are you sure nothing has changed since 1992?
As a reminder, in 1992 African-Americans composed 8% of the U.S. electorate and cast 83% of their ballots for the Democratic presidential candidate. The Republican party may wish that "nothing has changed" since then, but assumptions that African-American voters were simply going to dissolve into the æther is what gave us the (unintentional) hilarity of the Unskewed Polls fiasco in 2012.
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Humani nil a me alienum puto
Posts: 10706 | From: Sardis, Lydia | Registered: May 2001
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saysay
Ship's Praying Mantis
# 6645
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
I think the US Government (rather like the UK Government) just allows this to happen, rather than having more progressive* taxation policies. The gap between rich and poor grows naturally.
(* Definition: A progressive tax is a tax in which the tax rate increases as the taxable amount increases.)
Sadly, this is not the case. We have Baltimore and Ferguson and New York and California. We have five percent of the world's population an 25 percent of the world's prisoners.
There is an open class war being waged, and those who have power and money have made it clear that they will do anything to maintain their power and money.
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"It's been a long day without you, my friend
I'll tell you all about it when I see you again"
"'Oh sweet baby purple Jesus' - that's a direct quote from a 9 year old - shoutout to purple Jesus."
Posts: 2943 | From: The Wire | Registered: May 2004
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Og, King of Bashan:
quote:
Originally posted by ldjjd:
The Clintons have always been extremely popular among African-Americans. I'm quite certain that they will be out in force (perhaps only slightly dimimshed from 2008 and 2012).
Are you sure nothing has changed since 1992? Many within the Black Lives Matter movement blame the Clintons for the anti-crime policies that have resulted in mass incarceration of non-violent black offenders.
I definitely think the Clinton era changes have played a role, but most that I've read trace it further back to Reagan's zero-tolerance drug laws/ mandatory sentencing.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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Og, King of Bashan
Ship's giant Amorite
# 9562
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:
quote:
Originally posted by Og, King of Bashan:
quote:
Originally posted by ldjjd:
The Clintons have always been extremely popular among African-Americans. I'm quite certain that they will be out in force (perhaps only slightly dimimshed from 2008 and 2012).
Are you sure nothing has changed since 1992?
As a reminder, in 1992 African-Americans composed 8% of the U.S. electorate and cast 83% of their ballots for the Democratic presidential candidate. The Republican party may wish that "nothing has changed" since then, but assumptions that African-American voters were simply going to dissolve into the æther is what gave us the (unintentional) hilarity of the Unskewed Polls fiasco in 2012.
All I'm saying is that if someone generally ignored your issues and told you to vote for them anyway because they were better than the other guy or because they have always had your back (even when they didn't), you would be upset. The Black Lives Matter movement feels like this is what is happening to black voters now, and there is an argument that it is happening to Latino voters as well. If your main strategy to appeal to minority voters is to let the other guy say racist things and hope that the minority voters punish him at the ballot box, you aren't earning their votes. This isn't a partisan argument, this is about recognizing that white voters are treated differently from black and Latino voters. You earn the white vote with campaign promises, and then you hope the other guy says enough scary things to get the black and Latino vote out. That is wrong. And that's why you need a primary with multiple contenders. If the party insiders settle on one candidate whose main job is keeping the big donors happy, who is going to force them to listen to the people who don't have the dollars to influence policy?
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"I like to eat crawfish and drink beer. That's despair?" ― Walker Percy
Posts: 3259 | From: Denver, Colorado, USA | Registered: May 2005
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ldjjd
Shipmate
# 17390
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Posted
If I were Hillary, I'd keep Bill busy by sending him to to African-American neighborhoods in urban Ohio, Wisconsin, Indiana, Pennsylvania, Virginia, and North Carolina.
That should go a long way toward delivering the needed turnout in those key states.
Posts: 294 | Registered: Oct 2012
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ldjjd
Shipmate
# 17390
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Posted
Issues aren't the only thing that matters to voters.
Of equal imortance, perhaps of more importance, is rapport (I can't think of a better term). The relationship between Bill and the Affrican-American community has always been extremely close. It's a personal and emotional bond, and I don't think that it's at all faked on Bill's part.
This is well-illustrated by Bill opening his post-Presidential office in Harlem.
Posts: 294 | Registered: Oct 2012
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ldjjd:
Issues aren't the only thing that matters to voters.
Of equal imortance, perhaps of more importance, is rapport (I can't think of a better term). The relationship between Bill and the Affrican-American community has always been extremely close. It's a personal and emotional bond, and I don't think that it's at all faked on Bill's part.
This is well-illustrated by Bill opening his post-Presidential office in Harlem.
That seems to be true, but I'm not sure if that rapport extends to Hilary.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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Og, King of Bashan
Ship's giant Amorite
# 9562
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Posted
So you have actual people on the streets pleading with you to listen to them. Actual black youths being killed in encounters with the police. A justice system that has more black men in jail than were enslaved in 1850. And what are you going to do about it?
Tell blacks that their issues aren't really important to them and that they will really be happy with visits from someone they have rapport with.
I can't say what the response will be, but if it is "fuck that," I don't blame them.
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"I like to eat crawfish and drink beer. That's despair?" ― Walker Percy
Posts: 3259 | From: Denver, Colorado, USA | Registered: May 2005
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Og, King of Bashan:
So you have actual people on the streets pleading with you to listen to them. Actual black youths being killed in encounters with the police. A justice system that has more black men in jail than were enslaved in 1850. And what are you going to do about it?
Tell blacks that their issues aren't really important to them and that they will really be happy with visits from someone they have rapport with.
I can't say what the response will be, but if it is "fuck that," I don't blame them.
Indeed.
![[Votive]](graemlins/votive.gif)
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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ldjjd
Shipmate
# 17390
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
quote:
Originally posted by ldjjd:
Issues aren't the only thing that matters to voters.
Of equal imortance, perhaps of more importance, is rapport (I can't think of a better term). The relationship between Bill and the Affrican-American community has always been extremely close. It's a personal and emotional bond, and I don't think that it's at all faked on Bill's part.
This is well-illustrated by Bill opening his post-Presidential office in Harlem.
That seems to be true, but I'm not sure if that rapport extends to Hilary.
I'm not sure either, which is why I suggested the above effective role for him. I think that he can make it clear that a vote for Hilary is a vote for both of them - a transposition of an earlier line he used during his campaigns.
Also, Bill has shown that he can be stellar in his articulation of the issues, as long has he doesn't talk on and on.
I can think of no other White politician who could come close to Bill's ability to motivate African-American voters.
Posts: 294 | Registered: Oct 2012
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3M Matt
Shipmate
# 1675
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Posted
I'm British, so look in on this from outside the bubble somewhat.
The GOP are utterly clueless. Obama's presidency has been an utter global catastrophy and winning this election should be easy for them, but somehow I think they will blow it.
They have a few decent candidates: Carson and Rubio both strike me as good men, but a little bland and not presidential.
[ 29. August 2015, 07:59: Message edited by: 3M Matt ]
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3M Matt.
Posts: 1227 | From: London | Registered: Nov 2001
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by 3M Matt:
Obama's presidency has been an utter global catastrophy
Which must surely be a subjective statement. Some would say he failed to lead the world in a war against Iran. Others that he failed to cut carbon emissions. And, of course, the US electorate will largely judge him based on domestic policy, which (to me) seems to have the usual combination of good and bad.
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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Soror Magna
Shipmate
# 9881
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Og, King of Bashan:
So you have actual people on the streets pleading with you to listen to them. Actual black youths being killed in encounters with the police. A justice system that has more black men in jail than were enslaved in 1850. And what are you going to do about it? ...
When Secretary Clinton told the BLM representatives that their movement should also be developing and presenting concrete policy proposals, they responded that asking them for solutions was "victim-blaming". Unfortunately for them, I think she's right: if all the BLM movement creates is a hashtag and street demonstrations, nothing will change. And there are some really obvious things they should have been able to present immediately: end mandatory minimum sentencing, end three-strikes-and-you're-out, outlaw papers-please and stop-and-frisk, decriminalize possession of illegal drugs for personal use, establish national guidelines for use-of-force and investigating police killings, improve public defender services, equip police with as many fricking recording devices as they can carry, ensure every inmate in prison has access to education and mental health treatment, as well as better support for parole, probation and release ... I could go on.
Me, personally, I kind of like it when people ask me to tell them what to do, especially when I want something from them.
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"You come with me to room 1013 over at the hospital, I'll show you America. Terminal, crazy and mean." -- Tony Kushner, "Angels in America"
Posts: 5430 | From: Caprica City | Registered: Jul 2005
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
I think I saw a website with 10 policy proposals by the BLM movement. I have to look it up.
ETA found it: Campaign Zero
[ 29. August 2015, 14:58: Message edited by: LeRoc ]
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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romanlion
editorial comment
# 10325
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
I think I saw a website with 10 policy proposals by the BLM movement. I have to look it up.
ETA found it: Campaign Zero
Nothing in there to address Jamyla Bolden
Or Amari Brown
Or Malijah Grant
If only they had been killed by police.
BLM's selective outrage, combined with their tactics is why they will never have widespread credibility, even in their own communities.
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"You can't get rich in politics unless you're a crook" - Harry S. Truman
Posts: 1486 | From: White Rose City | Registered: Sep 2005
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Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
quote:
Originally posted by 3M Matt:
Obama's presidency has been an utter global catastrophy
Which must surely be a subjective statement. Some would say he failed to lead the world in a war against Iran. Others that he failed to cut carbon emissions. And, of course, the US electorate will largely judge him based on domestic policy, which (to me) seems to have the usual combination of good and bad.
I am delighted that Obama has failed to lead us into a war. How often do we need to hear it? No land wars in Asia!!! No one could say our little adventure in Iraq was worth the billions of dollars and many deaths it cost. Both my children are in the US Army, so chicken hawks get no quarter from me.
And thank God for Obamacare! The sick get care -- where's the down side in that?
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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page
Posts: 6378 | From: Washington DC | Registered: Mar 2014
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Og, King of Bashan
Ship's giant Amorite
# 9562
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Posted
If you were being harassed at work, you complained to the boss, and he said "come back with some proposals to make things better for you," wouldn't you want to say "O gave you my proposal, stop being an asshole"?
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"I like to eat crawfish and drink beer. That's despair?" ― Walker Percy
Posts: 3259 | From: Denver, Colorado, USA | Registered: May 2005
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Og, King of Bashan:
If you were being harassed at work, you complained to the boss, and he said "come back with some proposals to make things better for you," wouldn't you want to say "O gave you my proposal, stop being an asshole"?
Sure. There is no doubt that African-Americans have every right to complain about the Democrat's casual indifference/ sense of entitlement to their vote. There is no doubt that they have every right to complain about the current state of affairs. Frustration, heartbreak, raw anger-- all appropriate responses.
None of that changes the fact that Mrs. Clinton's advice was spot on. As I think the slate of specific proposals that have come out since then illustrate. Now it's up to the DNC to make good on their end of the bargain.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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saysay
Ship's Praying Mantis
# 6645
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
And thank God for Obamacare! The sick get care -- where's the down side in that?
Mountains of paperwork that no human being working outside the insurance industry can hope to understand including a three-inch wide dictionary that you are expected to store somewhere and when you go to the doctor they still send you a bill that you realize you will likely spend the rest of your life paying.
Nice idea, glitchy implementation.
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
As I think the slate of specific proposals that have come out since then illustrate.
The proposals were out there long before the riots or black lives matter movement. It's just nobody was paying attention.
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"It's been a long day without you, my friend
I'll tell you all about it when I see you again"
"'Oh sweet baby purple Jesus' - that's a direct quote from a 9 year old - shoutout to purple Jesus."
Posts: 2943 | From: The Wire | Registered: May 2004
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by saysay:
quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
And thank God for Obamacare! The sick get care -- where's the down side in that?
Mountains of paperwork that no human being working outside the insurance industry can hope to understand including a three-inch wide dictionary that you are expected to store somewhere and when you go to the doctor they still send you a bill that you realize you will likely spend the rest of your life paying.
Apparently you never had to wade thru the paperwork, appointment center nightmares, and bean-counting approval process native to any and all American HMOs prior to Obamacare.
And those of us who were unable to get ANY health insurance prior to Obamacare due to "pre-existing conditions" are happy to read 3 dictionaries in order to get the care we or our loved ones need. At a high cost, yes, but measurably less so than under the prior system.
Yes, the American health care system is seriously effed up. But far less so than it was prior to Obama.
[ 29. August 2015, 20:20: Message edited by: cliffdweller ]
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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ldjjd
Shipmate
# 17390
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Posted
I have several friends who are covered by Obamacare, and none has complained to me about "mountains of paperwork", a "dictionary", etc. Also, they enrolled through Covered California, a state-run exchange, where the found the sign up process quick and easy.
They are all covered by a non-profit HMO, so perhaps that accounts for their lack of complaints.
The for-profit companies are well known for payment delays, bickering over items covered, and mounds of paperwork. The ideal health care system, imo, would involve removing the profit motive from health care.
Posts: 294 | Registered: Oct 2012
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by saysay:
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
I think the US Government (rather like the UK Government) just allows this to happen, rather than having more progressive* taxation policies. The gap between rich and poor grows naturally.
(* Definition: A progressive tax is a tax in which the tax rate increases as the taxable amount increases.)
Sadly, this is not the case.
It is the case, whatever one's views about the reality of the class war. The description of the US and UK tax systems as not very progressive in accordance with the classic definition is simply a statement of fact.
quote:
We have Baltimore and Ferguson and New York and California. We have five percent of the world's population an 25 percent of the world's prisoners.
There is an open class war being waged, and those who have power and money have made it clear that they will do anything to maintain their power and money.
Let us say that you are right and there is a class war being waged by those with power and money in order to maintain their own position. What do you think should be done about that in the context of the upcoming Presidential election? Which is what this thread is about.
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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ldjjd
Shipmate
# 17390
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Posted
A first step would be to get big money out of politics.
That would involve reversing the Supremes' tragic Citizens United decision, equating political donations with free speech.
Next, reinstate the "fairness doctrine" for media giving opposing viewpoints equal time or space to rebut potential bias in the media. That would put an end to overt partisan propaganda peddled in the guise of news.
Posts: 294 | Registered: Oct 2012
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irish_lord99
Shipmate
# 16250
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ldjjd:
A first step would be to get big money out of politics.
Never gonna happen, nice as it would be. Nobody in politics wants it to happen, especially Hillary; who's gotten quite wealthy off of money in politics.
quote:
Originally posted by ldjjd:
Next, reinstate the "fairness doctrine" for media giving opposing viewpoints equal time or space to rebut potential bias in the media. That would put an end to overt partisan propaganda peddled in the guise of news.
Agreed, shut down Faux news and MSNBC simultaneously and you'll immediately elevate the level of discourse: the problem is policing the sheer volume of media out there, and finding a way for both sides to agree on what's 'fair'.
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"There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics." - Mark Twain
Posts: 1169 | From: Maine, US | Registered: Feb 2011
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Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061
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Posted
I have friends who are getting medical care for the first time in years. If you are a creative type there is not, and never has been, enough money in the arts to pay for health insurance.
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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page
Posts: 6378 | From: Washington DC | Registered: Mar 2014
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by irish_lord99:
quote:
Originally posted by ldjjd:
A first step would be to get big money out of politics.
Never gonna happen, nice as it would be. Nobody in politics wants it to happen, especially Hillary; who's gotten quite wealthy off of money in politics.
This is defeatist and obscures the issue. ldjjd indicated one thing that could be done to make the effect of money far less baleful, and you ignore it. We may never be able to get money out of politics completely (why the reference to HRC? Is that a tu quoque or a non sequitur?) but we can do a hell of a lot better than we're doing now.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
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irish_lord99
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# 16250
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by irish_lord99:
quote:
Originally posted by ldjjd:
A first step would be to get big money out of politics.
Never gonna happen, nice as it would be. Nobody in politics wants it to happen, especially Hillary; who's gotten quite wealthy off of money in politics.
This is defeatist and obscures the issue. ldjjd indicated one thing that could be done to make the effect of money far less baleful, and you ignore it. We may never be able to get money out of politics completely (why the reference to HRC? Is that a tu quoque or a non sequitur?) but we can do a hell of a lot better than we're doing now.
I'm simply being realistic.
You can't overturn Citizens United without political movement at the national level, and you can't get into politics at the national level without lots and lots of money. That money doesn't arrive without expectations, and one of those expectations is that the influence of money continue.
It's never going to happen.
The reference to HRC was simply to point out that the likely next POTUS (according to ldjjd, to whom my comment was directed) won't be backing a move to take money out of politics, so his/her desired 'first step' is already dead in the water if he/she is right about HRC.
The problem is certainly not limited to Clinton; but if you want a POTUS in 2016 who didn't get there on the backs of corporate sponsors and special interest groups then you'll have to vote for Trump. ![[Projectile]](graemlins/puke2.gif)
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"There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics." - Mark Twain
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saysay
Ship's Praying Mantis
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Cliffdweller:
Apparently you never had to wade thru the paperwork, appointment center nightmares, and bean-counting approval process native to any and all American HMOs prior to Obamacare.
![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
Well, no, I didn't, since I got what little medical care the state required at the free clinic.
quote:
And those of us who were unable to get ANY health insurance prior to Obamacare due to "pre-existing conditions" are happy to read 3 dictionaries in order to get the care we or our loved ones need. At a high cost, yes, but measurably less so than under the prior system.
You know, my mother died young of a condition that she probably wouldn't have died from if she had access to appropriate health care, so this attempt at emotional manipulation is not going to work.
If you're going to refuse to listen to the people when they tell you that in many cases the medical bills after Obamacare are more expensive than they were before it, prepare for your candidate to lose.
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
It is the case, whatever one's views about the reality of the class war.
You said the US government, like the UK government, sits by and simply lets the redistribution of wealth upwards happen. I objected to that description as far too passive given the government's actions. What they did in Ferguson has been documented in reputable news sources. What they did elsewhere is being documented.
quote:
Let us say that you are right and there is a class war being waged by those with power and money in order to maintain their own position. What do you think should be done about that in the context of the upcoming Presidential election? Which is what this thread is about.
I'm actually of the opinion that states need to start drawing up their articles of secession.
But since that's not likely to happen, we need a candidate who is willing to stand up for the working class. Someone who is willing to admit that while certain policies might have been created with the best intentions, in some cases the policies are actually hurting the people they were intended to help. Someone who, unlike the rest of the dems in this country, doesn't act like people should be happy that they aren't currently being beaten and who doesn't threaten to start beating them again if they don't smile and show some gratitude. Someone who is willing to take on some of the ideas that criminal justice reform advocates have been saying we need for years. Someone who is willing to acknowledge the problems and honestly talk about how to go about fixing them instead of acting like the problems don't exist because they haven't started affecting the middle class yet. Someone who understands that most members of the media have at least a college degree if not more, and most of the people in this country don't, and who refuses to pander to the media and their set narratives.
We're more likely to get a write-in vote for Omar.
Hillary might get the Democratic nomination, but she won't win the general election. The people won't stand for it.
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I'll tell you all about it when I see you again"
"'Oh sweet baby purple Jesus' - that's a direct quote from a 9 year old - shoutout to purple Jesus."
Posts: 2943 | From: The Wire | Registered: May 2004
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ldjjd
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# 17390
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Posted
There is a bit of irony regarding Trump and big money in politics.
While Trump points out the evils of outside big money, he is willing and able spend huge amounts of his own billions on his candidacy. Is the potential for corruption any less?
I do like his pointing out that in the past, he has expected and usually received tit for tax in his donations.
[ 30. August 2015, 01:17: Message edited by: ldjjd ]
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ldjjd
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# 17390
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Posted
saysay, my feiend,
Who is likely to defeat Hilary? Who, other than Bernie Sanders, is showing more interest in the necessary changes you mention other than Hilary, and she has addressed them. I know, I'll admit that it may be campaign rhetoric, but what is the alternative.
Sanders, for all his good sense and great ideas, will not be able to overcome the "Socialist" label. If he wins the nomination, he will be crushed in the general election.
Posts: 294 | Registered: Oct 2012
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saysay
Ship's Praying Mantis
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ldjjd:
saysay, my feiend,
Who is likely to defeat Hilary? Who, other than Bernie Sanders, is showing more interest in the necessary changes you mention other than Hilary, and she has addressed them.
Oh, I admit, she'll likely get the Democratic nomination. (not because she's addressed the necessary changes, because she hasn't, but because people think it's her turn)
But people are sick of the lies. And the lack of attempt to fix the real problems instead of coddling rich white women.
And they'll burn this country to the ground if things continue the way they've been going.
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"It's been a long day without you, my friend
I'll tell you all about it when I see you again"
"'Oh sweet baby purple Jesus' - that's a direct quote from a 9 year old - shoutout to purple Jesus."
Posts: 2943 | From: The Wire | Registered: May 2004
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cliffdweller
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# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by irish_lord99:
The problem is certainly not limited to Clinton; but if you want a POTUS in 2016 who didn't get there on the backs of corporate sponsors and special interest groups then you'll have to vote for Trump.
Although (as Trump himself pointed out in an odd bit of argument): all this does is remove the middle man. Instead of electing a corporate special-interest shill you elect the corporate special-interest directly.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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ldjjd
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# 17390
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Posted
saysay,
A President can do only so much, especialy with a majority of Congress and the Supreme Court beholden to monied, conservative, and even reactionary interests. Pres. Obama's tribulations illustrate this.
Without a Democratic President, I fear that some truly frightening legislation will be enacted without a veto.
Given how the whole system is gamed by those at the very top, I can only hope for gradual change after pitched battles, hopefully inspired by the President's bully-pulpit. That has happened on some issues.
My overriding hope is that necessary changes can occur before the whole thing falls apart or is burned down as you predict, my friend.
Posts: 294 | Registered: Oct 2012
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ldjjd
Shipmate
# 17390
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
quote:
Originally posted by irish_lord99:
The problem is certainly not limited to Clinton; but if you want a POTUS in 2016 who didn't get there on the backs of corporate sponsors and special interest groups then you'll have to vote for Trump.
Although (as Trump himself pointed out in an odd bit of argument): all this does is remove the middle man. Instead of electing a corporate special-interest shill you elect the corporate special-interest directly.
Indeed. Since Trump and his empire are one and the same, the Trump Empire (a royal house of sorts?) would preside. Would he or could he honestly divest himself of his identity with his empire for even a few years?
Posts: 294 | Registered: Oct 2012
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cliffdweller
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# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by saysay:
quote:
Originally posted by Cliffdweller:
Apparently you never had to wade thru the paperwork, appointment center nightmares, and bean-counting approval process native to any and all American HMOs prior to Obamacare.
Well, no, I didn't, since I got what little medical care the state required at the free clinic.
quote:
And those of us who were unable to get ANY health insurance prior to Obamacare due to "pre-existing conditions" are happy to read 3 dictionaries in order to get the care we or our loved ones need. At a high cost, yes, but measurably less so than under the prior system.
You know, my mother died young of a condition that she probably wouldn't have died from if she had access to appropriate health care, so this attempt at emotional manipulation is not going to work.
If you're going to refuse to listen to the people when they tell you that in many cases the medical bills after Obamacare are more expensive than they were before it, prepare for your candidate to lose.
No manipulation-- just my experience. I know what it's like to spend hours upon hours wading thru meticulous paperwork trying to get the right combination of factors, to get in just the right network with just the right pediatrician, to get the referral that would get my son the treatment he needed.
And later, I know what it's like to be over 50 with pre-existing conditions and denied coverage at any price. Obamacare was a godsend, for many of us.
Yes, it has only slowed the rate of inflation rather than stopping or reversing it. Yes, a different system (single payer) would be much, much better. As I said, it's effed up. But it's better than it was. Much better.
And yes, some people are paying more now. But not because of Obamacare (although that's what their premium increase letters say). Their rates were raised by their insurers under Obamacare for the exact same reason the insurers raised rates every year for the last several decades: because they could.
So yeah, there are better models, better options, out there. But until America wakes up and decides having health care doesn't mean you turn into a godless communist, I'll take this little bit of progress over my old days of trying to eke out care for my loved ones any day of the week.
If that's emotional manipulation, well, then so be it.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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Barnabas62
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# 9110
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Posted
saysay
What Ferguson city government did through abuse of the fines system for revenue raising was condemned by the federal Justice department and folks may yet get prosecuted over that. In any case that wasn't using the local taxation system as a means of revenue raising.
A refusal by substantial numbers of black voters to vote for Clinton as a protest and expression of community anger simply lets in whichever more regressive GOP candidate gets that ticket. How in the Hell is that better?
And stoking anarchist fires can lead to the doleful establishment of revolutionary or counter-revolutionary totalitarian governments.
I see the emotional attraction of 'a plague on both their houses'. But if you think about it, it kills whatever fragile seeds of hope there may be of better 'government of the people by the people for the people'. I think it is a counsel of despair to give up on democracy, whatever its present imperfections in the U.S.
[ 30. August 2015, 04:41: Message edited by: Barnabas62 ]
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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cliffdweller
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# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ldjjd:
saysay, my feiend,
Who is likely to defeat Hilary? Who, other than Bernie Sanders, is showing more interest in the necessary changes you mention other than Hilary, and she has addressed them. I know, I'll admit that it may be campaign rhetoric, but what is the alternative.
Sanders, for all his good sense and great ideas, will not be able to overcome the "Socialist" label. If he wins the nomination, he will be crushed in the general election.
I suspect you are correct, but it will be interesting to see. At this moment in time Sanders has a bit of the same feel that Obama had at this point in the election cycle. I was sure at that time that he would never get the nomination, but hoped he would hang in there long enough for me to vote for him in our state's primary. But he did get the nod. So... I don't know.
Maybe... if Warren were to endorse/ agree to be VP...
Maybe... with Jon Stewart as campaign manager...
Pipe dreams, perhaps.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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Barnabas62
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# 9110
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Posted
Obama in 2008 gained the floating centre vote as well as improving further the Democrats' share of the African American and Hispanic vote.
Could Bernie do that? It seems more likely to me that Hilary will get the endorsements she needs. She's canny enough to know how to play her cards better this time around.
Actually, I think Bernie is overplaying the outsider card. You can endanger grass roots support that way, particularly since the Democrats are seeking to retain the Presidency. Obama played the 'fresh young face' card to perfection in 2008, which worked a lot better in the campaign to regain the Presidency for the Democrats. I don't think that works for Bernie, for many reasons.
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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