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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Purgatory: U.S. Presidential Election 2016
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simontoad
Ship's Amphibian
# 18096
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Posted
I have a t-shirt with a photo of a campaign poster for Edvard Hund, a terrier in a coat and tie. His policy is "Release the Hounds" and his slogan was "Vote For the Underdog".
I think Mr Hund should be prevailed upon to stand as a write-in candidate in the Presidential Election. A massive TV and internet campaign should be enough in the last week of the election. Everyone loves cute little doggies in a coat and tie.
Personally, I would still vote for Hillary. I don't think America is ready for a non-human President. Plus, "Release the Hounds" sounds dangerous.
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Human
Posts: 1571 | From: Romsey, Vic, AU | Registered: May 2014
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
Croesos--
quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:
That's a huge conspiracy that's being postulated. Much larger than could plausibly be kept secret.
You might want to take a look at my post about Black Box Voting. The site has been working on clean elections for about 13 years.
Elections do get stolen, and sometimes that's never really settled. Example: JFK's election. (Wikipedia)
Electronic voting machines can be hacked. (See BBV link, above.) Russian hackers got into the Democratic National Committee's server, AIUI; and, despite the fuss, didn't actually get into Hillary's server, AIUI. As someone pointed out upthread, Russian hackers could cause chaos simply by saying they'd hacked the election, even if they didn't actually do it.
Wikipedia has more on controversial and fraudulent elections.
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
Martin--
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
That number makes me uneasy.
Beastly isn't it?! 1:6.66.. Martin Sheen's Greg Stillson in The Dead Zone comes to mind!
I presume that's from the movie version? I watched the TV series. There, Stillson was pretty darn slick, and wouldn't publicly do the kind of chaotic mess-making that Trump is doing.
I felt sorry for Stillson, because of the way his dad broke and manipulated him, and the way the power brokers eventually did the same.
Unless you're referring *only* to the 666. I don't think that was used in the series, but I can see why someone might think Stillson was the anti-Christ or the beast. I've always thought of the a-C as much more slick, cosmopolitan, controlled, polished, and seemingly harmless than Stillson or Trump could ever be. YMMV.
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
RE: Election rigging. It is important to note how full of shit Trump is regarding that claim. If the Democrats could rig an election, they would control congress.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
lB--
I wasn't saying that Trump is right. I was responding to Croesos' comment that rigging was implausible.
Rigging happens frequently in lower levels of gov't. Chicago has a "vote early, vote often" reputation. The state of Louisiana similarly. Here in San Francisco, there've been all sorts of things, including ballot boxes winding up in the bay.
You might check the link in my response to Croesos. Or just go straight to Black Box Voting.
I'm admittedly biased, but I think the Democrats are much less likely to rig the presidential vote. (Hopefully, not any others.)
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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simontoad
Ship's Amphibian
# 18096
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Posted
We bought home from America a White Chocolate White House. When we unpacked, we put it in the treats cupboard, intending to consume it over the next few days. Almost a month later, it is still there, whole. Neither my wife nor I can explain why we are not eating it, but we both feel quite distinctly that we should leave it alone.
It's weird.
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Human
Posts: 1571 | From: Romsey, Vic, AU | Registered: May 2014
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Stetson
Shipmate
# 9597
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Callan:
quote:
Originally posted by Stetson:
Callan wrote:
quote:
George Wallace levels of naivety about Russia cheered on by a latter day Alger Hiss with a side order of sleaze
I think you mean Henry, not George.
And who is "Alger Hiss" in the Trump campaign?
Quite right, I got my Wallace's mixed up. At least I didn't invoke Ian. Or William. ![[Hot and Hormonal]](icon_redface.gif)
Alger Hiss is Assange. There's not much difference, morally, between passing confidential information to the Russians and leaking it to influence the election of the Russian government's preferred candidate in an election. If someone was pulling that sort of thing to get a Democrat elected at Brezhnev's behest, back in the day, the Republicans, quite properly, would have been incensed. We live in very strange times.
Thanks for the clarification. I was thinking more of Hiss the supposedly traitorous adviser to FDR, rather than Hiss the betrayer of secrets, so the Assange comparison didn't hit me that hard.
My understanding is that, legalities aside, the main rap against Hiss was that he wielded unsavoury influence over foreign-policy, with the perjury trial just being sorta the equivalent of getting Al Capone on tax evasion. I do realize that the perjusy was thought to imply actual espionage, but that wasn't really what his accusers were particularly concerned about.
As for the comparions with a pro-Russian Democrat duriing the Cold War, well, things do change over time, and it's debatable(at least to many Americans) how much of a threat Russia poses to the US at the present time. You can probably compare this to British attitudes toward the USA during the Civil War, when public and establisment opinion were divided between supporting the Union or supporting the Confederacy. Rather than the more cut-and-dry attitudes toward the US during, say, the 1812-1814 period.
[ 18. October 2016, 11:32: Message edited by: Stetson ]
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I have the power...Lucifer is lord!
Posts: 6574 | From: back and forth between bible belts | Registered: Jun 2005
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Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061
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Posted
What interests me is the impact the election will have on women, and also the church. Here is an article on the impact of evangelical women. It will probably not surprise you that they are not fond of the crotch groping.
A veteran of many a losing campaign discusses the Trumpian death march to Election Day.
And over at the POST the pundits say it's over. The money quote: "It would be a mistake to call Trump’s current path to an electoral college victory narrow. It is nonexistent."
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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page
Posts: 6378 | From: Washington DC | Registered: Mar 2014
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Crœsos
Shipmate
# 238
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
lB--
I wasn't saying that Trump is right. I was responding to Croesos' comment that rigging was implausible.
Rigging happens frequently in lower levels of gov't. Chicago has a "vote early, vote often" reputation. The state of Louisiana similarly. Here in San Francisco, there've been all sorts of things, including ballot boxes winding up in the bay.
I was referring to in-person voter fraud at the polls, the type of "rigging" Trump suggests his followers can prevent by going to "certain neighborhoods" and leering at voters. This is also the same kind of election rigging Republicans have been hatching conspiracy theories about for years as an excuse to disenfranchise certain voters. Election rigging by insiders with control of the process is far more plausible.
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Humani nil a me alienum puto
Posts: 10706 | From: Sardis, Lydia | Registered: May 2001
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Ed's policy is NOT about letting loose the dogs of war, it is a plea for canine liberation.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Nick Tamen
Ship's Wayfaring Fool
# 15164
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
Rigging happens frequently in lower levels of gov't. Chicago has a "vote early, vote often" reputation. The state of Louisiana similarly. Here in San Francisco, there've been all sorts of things, including ballot boxes winding up in the bay.
A citation, other than anecdata, reputation or reference to elections more than 50 years ago (JFK v. Nixon) showing that "rigging happens frequently" please? And what exactly constitutes "frequently"?
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The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. — Anne Lamott
Posts: 2833 | From: On heaven-crammed earth | Registered: Sep 2009
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Nick Tamen:
A citation
I think GK is thinking of Asterix in Corsica*
![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
*("the ballot boxes are full BEFORE the elections?" "Yes, then we throw them in the sea without opening them, and the strongest man wins. It's a tradition of ours").
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gwai:
[crossposted with Croesos who is having similar thoughts]
Re elections and rigging, what worries me is the number of people who are trying to disenfranchise those who are likely to disagree with them. (See Florida and African-American voters, for instance)
Disenfranchising voters seems to be standard political practice. SOP for current Republicans specifically targets groups that will not likely support them.
But, ISTM,that is not the trumpelstiltskin's main motive. IIRC, he began the rigged voting talk against his fellow Republican contenders during the primaries. Even said afterward that he didn't care if it was rigged as long as he won.
His rigging talk is to salve his ego if he loses. He might be expanding the reasons, but that is his primary.
It does tie into the common trope and is dangerous because if this.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Prester John
Shipmate
# 5502
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Nick Tamen:
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
Rigging happens frequently in lower levels of gov't. Chicago has a "vote early, vote often" reputation. The state of Louisiana similarly. Here in San Francisco, there've been all sorts of things, including ballot boxes winding up in the bay.
A citation, other than anecdata, reputation or reference to elections more than 50 years ago (JFK v. Nixon) showing that "rigging happens frequently" please? And what exactly constitutes "frequently"?
Hopefully the Slate is considered a balanced enough source for
you. That was for Chicago. I couldn't find anything that would summarize San Francisco's problems but a quick Google search for San Francisco election fraud turns up plenty of hits. Most of these admittedly were for local elections as opposed to presidential or gubernatorial elections.
Posts: 884 | From: SF Bay Area | Registered: Feb 2004
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Nick Tamen
Ship's Wayfaring Fool
# 15164
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Prester John:
Hopefully the Slate is considered a balanced enough source for
you. That was for Chicago. I couldn't find anything that would summarize San Francisco's problems but a quick Google search for San Francisco election fraud turns up plenty of hits. Most of these admittedly were for local elections as opposed to presidential or gubernatorial elections.
I'll accept Slate. But a quick read—and I'm happy to be corrected if because of reading quickly I missed something—I didn't see support for a general statement that "rigging happens frequently," unless "in Chicago" is added to the end of the sentence. At most, the story seems to show that improper activity, some of which may qualify as actual (or attempted) vote rigging* and some of which may not, has occurred in Chicago. Even if San Francisco is added, that leaves lots of the rest of the country.
Perhaps I should add that I see a difference between electoral fraud and rigging an election. The former can include things as basic as someone attempting to vote twice. The latter I think suggests a more coordinated and systemic attempt to skew or control the results.
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The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. — Anne Lamott
Posts: 2833 | From: On heaven-crammed earth | Registered: Sep 2009
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Crœsos
Shipmate
# 238
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Posted
We are now 21 days from Election Day 2016. The third and final presidential debate will be held tomorrow in Las Vegas. The previous entry in this series can be found here.
Nate Silver has the probability of a Clinton victory at 84%, with an average outcome of 327 electoral votes for Clinton. This is nearly the highest chance of victory and EV count Silver has given the Clinton campaign to date, the maximum (so far) being achieved yesterday and today's numbers being slightly down from there. Silver has also posted an explanation about why it's unlikely his model will be predicting a much greater probability of a Clinton victory. (Simple version, his model is stingy with the last few percentage points in any direction. Technical version, his model uses a t-distribution while other projections use a normal distribution to model voting behavior.) Also relevant to the current thread is Silver's podcast "Voter Fraud Is Very Rare In American Elections". Note that there is a distinction between 'voter fraud' and 'election fraud'.
Sam Wang at the Princeton Election Consortium predicts a 95% chance of a Clinton victory using a random drift model and a 97% chance using Bayesian analysis, the same as a week ago. Wang's average outcome is Clinton getting 334 electoral votes.
The Upshot at the New York Times currently gives Hillary Clinton a 91% chance of winning the election. Only click through that link if you're a NYT subscriber or you're willing to use one of your ten monthly Times clicks on this.
RealClearPolitics, which is a current state aggregator rather than a predicting trend analyzer, currently has Clinton winning 256 electoral votes, Trump winning 170 electoral votes, and 112 electoral votes listed as "toss ups". In contrast with every other poll tracker, RCP seems to think the race is closer this week than it was last week.
The folks at electoral-vote.com (another real-time poll aggregator like RealClearPolitics) currently have Clinton winning 352 electoral votes to Trump's 186 if the election were held today, the same as last week.
So what's the electoral math at this point? We'll start with the 2012 election map. At this point Trump is ahead in all the states Romney carried except North Carolina (15), where he's behind, and Arizona (11), which is almost dead even. Of the 2012 Obama states, Iowa (6) is similar to Arizona in that it consistently polls within the margin of error, so it's within the possible grasp of the Trump campaign. If Trump regains North Carolina, retains Arizona, and adds Iowa to his total that gets him to 212 electoral votes. To get to 270 the Trump campaign would need to also carry Ohio (currently Clinton leads by ~0.7%), Florida (Clinton ~4.3%), Nevada (Clinton ~4.3%), and any one of the following states/combinations:
- Minnesota (Clinton ~7.6%)
- Pennsylvania (Clinton ~7.8%)
- Colorado (Clinton ~8.2%)
- Both New Hampshire (Clinton ~8.3%) and Maine's 2nd Congressional District (Clinton ~0.9%)
Not impossible per se, but a very difficult road over some (currently) very hostile terrain.
Once again the usual caveats apply about how anything can change in the next three weeks. This is the current state of play, not a prediction.
[ 18. October 2016, 17:26: Message edited by: Crœsos ]
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Humani nil a me alienum puto
Posts: 10706 | From: Sardis, Lydia | Registered: May 2001
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Gramps49
Shipmate
# 16378
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Posted
1) Trump has used the vote rigging claim before. When he lost the Iowa primary he claimed the vote was rigged. He also did this in other primaries which he lost. And, one way to detract from the sexual assault claims is not claim the system is rigged--making HIM a victim.
I have seen this tactic used by domestic assault perpetrators which I have worked with for a number of years. "It is not my fault, I am the victim here."
70% of Trump followers agree the system is rigged, which effectively makes around 30% of the total electorate thinking that way.
Now, if some nefarious state can hack into one of our state systems to the point of making the results questionable, it will prove their point. Makes me think that there may be collusion between such a state and the Trump campaign.
2. Now even the GOP Senate Leadership is resorting to desperation tactics. Senator McCain is now stating the Senate Republicans will block any Supreme Court nomination by Clinton. I think this will backfire on them because, if there is one thing people do not appreciate is a deadlocked government. Look for the Senate to go to the Dems by 60 to 40, at least.
3) Hopefully, the House will also flip Democratic. Many of the Red States have a number of congressional districts that are leaning Democratic. Look for the Clinton campaign now to go all out in reaching out to those districts. Clinton will be going full bore so that her future administration will have a favorable congress.
Posts: 2193 | From: Pullman WA | Registered: Apr 2011
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rolyn
Shipmate
# 16840
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
The money quote: "It would be a mistake to call Trump’s current path to an electoral college victory narrow. It is nonexistent."
Let us hope that such confidence regarding Hilary being home and dry doesn't cause a significant number of voters to think it is safe to tick trump's box as a protest vote.
The Brexit comparison isn't too helpful now, but many voters went for Leave as mischief/protest action because It was felt, even on Polling day itself that Remain had it in the bag.
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Change is the only certainty of existence
Posts: 3206 | From: U.K. | Registered: Dec 2011
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Og, King of Bashan
Ship's giant Amorite
# 9562
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gramps49:
2. Now even the GOP Senate Leadership is resorting to desperation tactics. Senator McCain is now stating the Senate Republicans will block any Supreme Court nomination by Clinton. I think this will backfire on them because, if there is one thing people do not appreciate is a deadlocked government. Look for the Senate to go to the Dems by 60 to 40, at least.
That would be a truly historic event. The 538 Senate Forecast gives the Democrats a 76% chance of winning control over the Senate, but a <0.1% chance of picking up the 14 seats necessary to become a filibuster proof majority. So don't get your hopes up.
Still, all the Dems need to do is get 51 and they can extend the filibuster rule change to apply to Supreme Court nominees. And I think no one would blame them if the Republicans try to drag this out for another four years.
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"I like to eat crawfish and drink beer. That's despair?" ― Walker Percy
Posts: 3259 | From: Denver, Colorado, USA | Registered: May 2005
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
Croesos
Thanks again for another excellent "state of play" summary. Just one little point which may add to the picture. On the RealClear Politics site, you can get a No-toss-ups analysis which gives Clinton/Kane 322 electoral votes and a lead of over 100 in the electoral college. Not too different from the 538 polls-plus (i.e. most conservative) forecast at this stage. (For RCP, a toss-up state appears to be one in which the average polls lead is less than 5%.)
In this election it is very different to preserve objectivity over the analyses of poll. Thank you for doing that. I do think you are quite right to point out that the road to electoral college victory has become very difficult for Trump. He has to win virtually all the RCP toss-up states. That is what the numbers say at this stage.
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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Crœsos
Shipmate
# 238
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Og, King of Bashan:
quote:
Originally posted by Gramps49:
2. Now even the GOP Senate Leadership is resorting to desperation tactics. Senator McCain is now stating the Senate Republicans will block any Supreme Court nomination by Clinton. I think this will backfire on them because, if there is one thing people do not appreciate is a deadlocked government. Look for the Senate to go to the Dems by 60 to 40, at least.
That would be a truly historic event. The 538 Senate Forecast gives the Democrats a 76% chance of winning control over the Senate, but a <0.1% chance of picking up the 14 seats necessary to become a filibuster proof majority. So don't get your hopes up.
To take a brief detour into the Senate election, there are 10 Democratic and 24 Republican U.S. Senate seats up for election this year. 2010 was a wave year for Republicans, so six years later they have much more to defend in the Senate than the Democrats. Of the seats under contention, only six or seven are close enough to be considered uncertain. Another two are reasonably certain but involve a party switch (both Republican to Democrat). So as it currently stands the most likely outcome is a Democratic gain of 2 to 9 seats in the U.S. Senate. A gain of 5 seats will give the Democrats outright control of the Senate, while a gain of 4 allows them control only if Tim Kaine wins the vice presidency.
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Humani nil a me alienum puto
Posts: 10706 | From: Sardis, Lydia | Registered: May 2001
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Gramps49
Shipmate
# 16378
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Posted
Og, new polling indicates McCain is losing to his opponent and McCain was thought to be a solid seat. Both Michelle and Hillary are now planning on campaigning in Arizona this next week.
Now, Micheal Moore has now announced he is releasing a movie on Trump tonight in NYC. Called Trumpland.
Posts: 2193 | From: Pullman WA | Registered: Apr 2011
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Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061
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Posted
After his latest outburst I have lost all respect for McCain. He should retire.
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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page
Posts: 6378 | From: Washington DC | Registered: Mar 2014
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Pigwidgeon
Ship's Owl
# 10192
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Posted
There's also "official" fraud. In Arizona we have had polling places closed (in the recent Presidential primary people waited in line for up to five hours, unless they gave up and went home); "mistakes," especially in the Spanish-language election materials and ballots which gave the wrong election date or mis-information about ballot propositions; a polling place closed after the ballots (with voting information on them) were mailed, etc. etc. The State and County election officials responsible are all Republicans -- most of the voters affected by these so-called mistakes are in Democrat-majority areas or are Spanish speaking.
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"...that is generally a matter for Pigwidgeon, several other consenting adults, a bottle of cheap Gin and the odd giraffe."
~Tortuf
Posts: 9835 | From: Hogwarts | Registered: Aug 2005
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Pigwidgeon
Ship's Owl
# 10192
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
After his latest outburst I have lost all respect for McCain. He should retire.
He should have retired after his 2008 loss of the White House.
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"...that is generally a matter for Pigwidgeon, several other consenting adults, a bottle of cheap Gin and the odd giraffe."
~Tortuf
Posts: 9835 | From: Hogwarts | Registered: Aug 2005
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Twilight
Puddleglum's sister
# 2832
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gramps49:
Now, Micheal Moore has now announced he is releasing a movie on Trump tonight in NYC. Called Trumpland.
I wonder why he waited so long? I trust Michael Moore almost completely although I think he can sometimes be cruel and always a bit biased. His "Sicko," permanently took the shine of Hillary for me, although never enough to make me vote for Trump.
Posts: 6817 | Registered: May 2002
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Og, King of Bashan
Ship's giant Amorite
# 9562
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gramps49:
Og, new polling indicates McCain is losing to his opponent and McCain was thought to be a solid seat.
Beware of cherry picking polls. Neither RCP or 538 show this one as a close race. (I'd link, but UBB is giving me fits at the moment.)
I suppose it would be the height of hypocrisy to turn around and ask you for a link to the polling you are seeing?
(And as I said above, 14 is not only a highly improbable number of seats, it's totally unnecessary. You only need 51 votes to change the Senate rules, and mark my words, the filibuster rule will not survive a four year Republican Supreme Court stonewall.)
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"I like to eat crawfish and drink beer. That's despair?" ― Walker Percy
Posts: 3259 | From: Denver, Colorado, USA | Registered: May 2005
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
Tired of claims of sexual prowess, pneumonia, cocaine, election rigging, impeachment, and private e-mail servers?
Here's a piece that actually looks at where the candidates stand on political issues!!!11!!1!11!111!!
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
For those thinking a third party candidate is a possible voting solution, go to YouTube and do a search for John Oliver third parties. Is link it, but it is 18min. and that isn't fair to the hosts. That and you can sort out region access.
The tl;do is that neither Gary Johnson or Jill Stein appear at all prepared for the job.
[ 18. October 2016, 21:40: Message edited by: lilBuddha ]
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Pigwidgeon
Ship's Owl
# 10192
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
For those thinking a third party candidate is a possible voting solution, go to YouTube and do a search for John Oliver third parties. Is link it, but it is 18min. and that isn't fair to the hosts. That and you can sort out region access.
The tl;do is that neither Gary Johnson or Jill Stein appear at all prepared for the job.
I watched that yesterday and just about fell out of my chair laughing. I have become a huge (or should that be "yuge"?) John Oliver fan.
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"...that is generally a matter for Pigwidgeon, several other consenting adults, a bottle of cheap Gin and the odd giraffe."
~Tortuf
Posts: 9835 | From: Hogwarts | Registered: Aug 2005
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
I've heard interviews with Gary Johnson. I *might* let him manage a garage sale--with supervision!--but that's about it.
And he still seemed to have some kind of hope that he might win.
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
Tired of claims of sexual prowess, pneumonia, cocaine, election rigging, impeachment, and private e-mail servers?
Here's a piece that actually looks at where the candidates stand on political issues!!!11!!1!11!111!!
Thanks for that. I like Hillary more than I thought.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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simontoad
Ship's Amphibian
# 18096
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
Ed's policy is NOT about letting loose the dogs of war, it is a plea for canine liberation.
Yes indeed, but can the USA afford to have gangs of dogs roaming the streets, looking for elections to rig? I say no, and the nation's experience with the resurgence of wolves proves my point.
I'd vote Hillary over Edvard Hund any day of the week.
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Human
Posts: 1571 | From: Romsey, Vic, AU | Registered: May 2014
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Nick Tamen
Ship's Wayfaring Fool
# 15164
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Pigwidgeon:
There's also "official" fraud. In Arizona we have had polling places closed (in the recent Presidential primary people waited in line for up to five hours, unless they gave up and went home); "mistakes," especially in the Spanish-language election materials and ballots which gave the wrong election date or mis-information about ballot propositions; a polling place closed after the ballots (with voting information on them) were mailed, etc. etc. The State and County election officials responsible are all Republicans -- most of the voters affected by these so-called mistakes are in Democrat-majority areas or are Spanish speaking.
Don't people sue about these things?
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The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. — Anne Lamott
Posts: 2833 | From: On heaven-crammed earth | Registered: Sep 2009
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Pigwidgeon
Ship's Owl
# 10192
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Nick Tamen:
quote:
Originally posted by Pigwidgeon:
There's also "official" fraud. In Arizona we have had polling places closed (in the recent Presidential primary people waited in line for up to five hours, unless they gave up and went home); "mistakes," especially in the Spanish-language election materials and ballots which gave the wrong election date or mis-information about ballot propositions; a polling place closed after the ballots (with voting information on them) were mailed, etc. etc. The State and County election officials responsible are all Republicans -- most of the voters affected by these so-called mistakes are in Democrat-majority areas or are Spanish speaking.
Don't people sue about these things?
Yup.
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"...that is generally a matter for Pigwidgeon, several other consenting adults, a bottle of cheap Gin and the odd giraffe."
~Tortuf
Posts: 9835 | From: Hogwarts | Registered: Aug 2005
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romanlion
editorial comment
# 10325
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by simontoad:
Yes indeed, but can the USA afford to have gangs of dogs roaming the streets,...
Sure...
Just bring them to heel.
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"You can't get rich in politics unless you're a crook" - Harry S. Truman
Posts: 1486 | From: White Rose City | Registered: Sep 2005
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
Eutychus--
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
quote:
Originally posted by Nick Tamen:
A citation
I think GK is thinking of Asterix in Corsica*
*("the ballot boxes are full BEFORE the elections?" "Yes, then we throw them in the sea without opening them, and the strongest man wins. It's a tradition of ours").
No.
"Scavenged ballot box lids haunt S.F. elections" (SFGate).
If you read down through it, there are mentions of many other election problems in SF. You can also do a web search on "San Francisco ballot boxes bay". When I searched through DuckDuckGo, there was another article that mentioned ballots actually being left in the machines.
Believe it or not, politics is corrupt in the US. I've been hearing about it, in the news, all my life, *including* many, many occasions of election malfeasance, tampering, etc.
Maybe you don't want to believe it, Eutychus, but it's true.
![[Disappointed]](graemlins/disappointed.gif)
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
Gramps and Twilight--
quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
quote:
Originally posted by Gramps49:
Now, Micheal Moore has now announced he is releasing a movie on Trump tonight in NYC. Called Trumpland.
I wonder why he waited so long? I trust Michael Moore almost completely although I think he can sometimes be cruel and always a bit biased. His "Sicko," permanently took the shine of Hillary for me, although never enough to make me vote for Trump.
Thanks for the info. Sounds worth seeing.
I may trust Michael a bit less than Twilight; but I think his info is generally mostly right. His style can have sharp edges, though. I liked his 9/11 film, and was glad that he also had detailed references on his site to back up what he said. I avoided "Sicko", because I've had quite a few problems with both health care and insurance, and I was afraid I wouldn't behave myself in the theater.
Anyway, I went to Michael's site to poke around, and I found this:
"Is Trump Deliberately Sabotaging His Campaign, Because He Never Really Wanted The Job In The First Place?"
Interesting info, if true. Both Trump and former campaign manager (?) said, sometime back, that T didn't really want to do the actual work, and would delegate it. But this article goes farther than that, evidently with info that Michael was given on deep background. I'm not sure I credit T with the active, functional intelligence that he would need to do what M said. Other than that caveat, though, it might be possible...
Bit of trivia about Michael: That time he made an activist speech at the Academy Awards? He said, later, that he got an idea at Mass that morning that he should do something. Hence, the speech.
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
"Scavenged ballot box lids haunt S.F. elections" (SFGate).
From your link, emphasis mine: quote:
As the lids keep being discovered farther and farther from San Francisco's shores, the lore around them has built
Your story is about ballot box lids. If you can show me in that article where fraud is proven (or ballot boxes ended up in the sea), then go ahead.
On the one hand, there's no doubt that fraud, especially at low levels of government and in unstable democracies, is possible, but the fact that the same stories are told about SF and Corsica, decades apart, and referred to as "lore", suggests to me that this is the stuff of urban legend (you'd be amazed at how many cities worldwide have the rumour that there were plans to build a wall around a particularly rough area of town).
This thread is full of people decrying conspiracy theory talk, especially that of Trump and the alt-right. That's great, as I find that talk alarming. But such denunciations are considerably weakened if the people doing the denouncing aren't actually any better at fact-checking.
(By the way, has anyone here actually done vote-counting? When I found out you could simply volunteer at our polling station, I did a count for our last mayoral elections. Very interesting and giving a whole new meaning to participatory democracy).
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
The Donald's accusations have two dimensions.
1. Dishonest and distorted behaviour by those parts of the media hostile to him. Actually, it's an attack on the First Amendment.
2. The "Clinton Machine" is responsible for organised vote-rigging against him. But as President Obama pointed out, the management of registration, ballot security and counting is in the hands of local and state officials all over the USA. It is silly to argue either that they are all in the pay of the "Clinton Machine", whatever that is, or that any corruptions of means are one-sided i.e. only occurring among Democrats.
It is, indeed, a whining (not winning) argument, and it is not confirmed by evidence from the past of previous misdeeds in San Francisco, or Florida, or wherever. Corrupt behaviour by officials and supporters during the election is subject to the law. But Trump routinely asserts that people are guilty ahead of due process, and has also criticised due process and those responsible for it when the results have gone against him.
He has no respect for the constitutional separation of powers. That's what his statements tell you. He is also an abuser of his own power. That is what his behaviour tells you.
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
Eutychus--
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
"Scavenged ballot box lids haunt S.F. elections" (SFGate).
From your link, emphasis mine: quote:
As the lids keep being discovered farther and farther from San Francisco's shores, the lore around them has built
Your story is about ballot box lids. If you can show me in that article where fraud is proven (or ballot boxes ended up in the sea), then go ahead.
Did you miss the slideshow pictures at the beginning? First two are pics of the ballot box lids that were found. Third one is a map of the places they were found, around the Bay.
Did you miss quote:
"As the lids keep being discovered farther and farther from San Francisco's shores, the lore around them has built, and they've become local collectors' items"?
(Emphasis mine)
You seem to have caught the lore part, but not that it was about actual, physical ballot box lids.
The rest of the article goes on to discuss that more, and lots of other incidents of election tampering.
That article is from 2002. Here's one from 2010:
"Stolen ballots found all wet in the Marina" (SFGate).
I'm not going to plague the H/As with more links in this post. But if you want to look further, I found these searches useful:
--"mail-in ballots not counted san francisco"
--"absentee ballots not counted san francisco"
--"election tampering san francisco"
And, of course, you can drop San Francisco from the search, and/or substitute another place.
FYI: Former president Jimmy Carter has participated in international election monitoring. The voting system where his group goes must meet some basic standards to even qualify for monitoring. He said that the US system didn't even qualify. (This was some years back, probably around the 2000 election--the one that was such a horrific mess, and I don't mean the candidates.)
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by romanlion:
quote:
Originally posted by simontoad:
Yes indeed, but can the USA afford to have gangs of dogs roaming the streets,...
Sure...
Just bring them to heel.
That's against the Constitootion!
Canine liberation NOW!
Cock a leg and lay an egg for FREEDOM!
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
Sorry for the multiple copies of my last post. My connection with the Ship has been very strange, over the last hour or two.
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
No problem, they are gone! My connection has also been a bit erratic. I'll follow up.
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
Thanks, Barnabas. ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
On a lighter note:
Tom Tomorrow's "This Modern World" comic strip is having great, sarcastic, outrageous fun with the election.
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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