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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Purgatory: U.S. Presidential Election 2016
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Stetson
Shipmate
# 9597
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Posted
MM/Croesos exchange:
quote:
quote:
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Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
But more importantly, if it's all due to racism then how exactly do you plan to turn those votes back around to blue? If I'm right then improving economic conditions in small towns is all it will take, but if you're right then what are the options?
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Then it seems pretty obvious that you're wrong. Economic conditions, even in small towns, were better in November 2016 than they were in November 2012 and much better than they were in November 2008. If improving economic conditions for white Americans is what it takes to get their votes, we wouldn't expect to see the results we did.
I grew up in a time and place where racism, particularly but not exclusively against East Indians, could fairly be described as rampant. And, thinking back on it, it didn't seem to really have much connection to poverty. This was an oil-boom region, and I recall hearing just as much racist talk before the early 80s crash as after.
If anything, eacist talk became less acceptable as the decade, with its lower prices, wore on, probably just do to changing social mores.
[ 11. November 2016, 18:12: Message edited by: Stetson ]
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I have the power...Lucifer is lord!
Posts: 6574 | From: back and forth between bible belts | Registered: Jun 2005
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:
So your question is how could a campaign that explicitly embraced white nationalism work when the previous two Republican campaigns that didn't somehow failed? I think to ask that question is to answer it.
No, my question is why you think people who want to vote for a white nationalist candidate would vote for a black man when one isn't standing.
quote:
Economic conditions, even in small towns, were better in November 2016 than they were in November 2012 and much better than they were in November 2008.
That doesn't chime with the various articles I've read by people who have actually been to some of those towns. Can you provide evidence?
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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Crœsos
Shipmate
# 238
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Economic conditions, even in small towns, were better in November 2016 than they were in November 2012 and much better than they were in November 2008.
That doesn't chime with the various articles I've read by people who have actually been to some of those towns. Can you provide evidence?
You mean something more than "I think I read an article somewhere with some anecdotal account in it that backs up my opinion"? Here ya go. The data for non-metro median family income is at the bottom of each year's data set. A quick calc shows that everywhere the non-metro median income increased from 2008 to 2012, and in most places either increased further or held steady between 2012 and 2016.
So turnabout being fair play, where's your data?
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Humani nil a me alienum puto
Posts: 10706 | From: Sardis, Lydia | Registered: May 2001
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Crœsos
Shipmate
# 238
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Posted
Oh, and there doesn't seem to be any data for non-metropolitan Delaware for 2016. I'm guessing that sometime between 2012 and 2016 Delaware urbanized enough that there weren't any statistically significant non-metropolitan areas left, though that's just conjecture on my part.
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Humani nil a me alienum puto
Posts: 10706 | From: Sardis, Lydia | Registered: May 2001
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Dafyd
Shipmate
# 5549
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:If it's all due to racism as you suggest, then how do you explain the fact that most of the swing voters in states that went from blue to red voted for Obama last time?
So your question is how could a campaign that explicitly embraced white nationalism work when the previous two Republican campaigns that didn't somehow failed? I think to ask that question is to answer it.
I think that white nationalism clearly got Trump through the Republican primaries. And clearly not enough white voters objected to it. But from over here the issue that was front and centre of the post-primary campaign was that Trump was running on a platform of not being a woman.
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we remain, thanks to original sin, much in love with talking about, rather than with, one another. Rowan Williams
Posts: 10567 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Feb 2004
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
The connection between racism and misogyny is insecurity. Fear. I think that's why both racism and misogyny were in play in this election. The real source of that insecurity? Now that's a subject for politicians of all flavours to consider.
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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Robert Armin
All licens'd fool
# 182
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Posted
My pc has been ill for the past few days, so this is my first chance to say, from the bottom of my heart, may God bless America ![[Votive]](graemlins/votive.gif) .
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Keeping fit was an obsession with Fr Moity .... He did chin ups in the vestry, calisthenics in the pulpit, and had developed a series of Tai-Chi exercises to correspond with ritual movements of the Mass. The Antipope Robert Rankin
Posts: 8927 | From: In the pack | Registered: May 2001
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
Thanks, Robert. ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
And may God bless your PC, too. I'm well familiar with ongoing PC problems.
[ 13. November 2016, 06:10: Message edited by: Golden Key ]
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
My reading of the news is that Michigan has been called formally for Trump and New Hampshire for Clinton, confirming the Electoral College composition as 306-232 in favour of Donald Trump. So I'm putting this thread on notice of closure tomorrow evening GMT. Feel free to lodge last thoughts.
Barnabas62
Purgatory Host
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338
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Posted
To my mind, where Hillary kept going wrong was in stressing that she was standing "as a woman", when she should have said she was standing as a Democrat. After all, the election was not to get the best woman into the White House but the best person.
Where the Democratic party went wrong was in allowing a process to take place of virtual coronation of HRC when there should have been a proper selection process. Quite apart from anything else (and notwithstanding R Reagan) at 69 and 70 both candidates were too old to be standing for such a strenuous office.
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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
Posts: 4950 | From: somewhere in England... | Registered: Sep 2012
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TurquoiseTastic
Fish of a different color
# 8978
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Posted
Crikey I don't think that's the case at all. Sanders gave Clinton a much fiercer race for the nomination than I expected. I don't think Sanders would have won the White House, though, or come close - he could have been painted as a Commie.
Did the Democrats have anyone better though? Not that I'm aware...
Posts: 1092 | From: Hants., UK | Registered: Jan 2005
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Twilight
Puddleglum's sister
# 2832
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Dafyd:
I think that white nationalism clearly got Trump through the Republican primaries. And clearly not enough white voters objected to it. But from over here the issue that was front and centre of the post-primary campaign was that Trump was running on a platform of not being a woman.
I agree with this, but would be more specific. I think first and foremost he was running on a platform of not being Hillary Clinton. Not saying that there aren't lots of people who would never vote for any woman, just that this latest group included people who might have considered another woman. I really like her, but I was amazed when the Democratic party decided to run a woman who would have topped many lists of Most Hated Woman in America.
Posts: 6817 | Registered: May 2002
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Soror Magna
Shipmate
# 9881
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Posted
My last thought:
- Adolf Hitler 24%, wins Electoral College
- Lady Macbeth 25%
- Don't care either way 51%
Kiss We the People goodbye ...
[ 13. November 2016, 19:19: Message edited by: Soror Magna ]
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"You come with me to room 1013 over at the hospital, I'll show you America. Terminal, crazy and mean." -- Tony Kushner, "Angels in America"
Posts: 5430 | From: Caprica City | Registered: Jul 2005
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Anglican't
Shipmate
# 15292
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
quote:
Originally posted by Dafyd:
I think that white nationalism clearly got Trump through the Republican primaries. And clearly not enough white voters objected to it. But from over here the issue that was front and centre of the post-primary campaign was that Trump was running on a platform of not being a woman.
I agree with this, but would be more specific. I think first and foremost he was running on a platform of not being Hillary Clinton. Not saying that there aren't lots of people who would never vote for any woman, just that this latest group included people who might have considered another woman. I really like her, but I was amazed when the Democratic party decided to run a woman who would have topped many lists of Most Hated Woman in America.
Indeed. Presumably many of those who deserted the Democrats this time around were the same people who had voted for Barack Obama twice. It's possible, of course, that there is a significant body of voters happy with, and prepared to vote for, a black man in the White House but who would recoil at the thought of a woman there. Seems improbable to me, though.
Posts: 3613 | From: London, England | Registered: Nov 2009
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Amanda B. Reckondwythe
Dressed for Church
# 5521
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by TurquoiseTastic:
Did the Democrats have anyone better though?
Joe Biden.
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"I take prayer too seriously to use it as an excuse for avoiding work and responsibility." -- The Revd Martin Luther King Jr.
Posts: 10542 | From: The Great Southwest | Registered: Feb 2004
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MarsmanTJ
Shipmate
# 8689
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:
Indeed. Presumably many of those who deserted the Democrats this time around were the same people who had voted for Barack Obama twice. It's possible, of course, that there is a significant body of voters happy with, and prepared to vote for, a black man in the White House but who would recoil at the thought of a woman there. Seems improbable to me, though.
My facebook feed which contains a lot of relatively open minded evangelical American friends seems to be pretty much 50/50 split between those who didn't want Hillary in office so voted Trump even though they dislike him intensely, and those for whom the reverse is true. By and large they all voted Obama the first time around, and probably about three-quarters of them voted Obama the second time around. So amongst my friends, there's a significant shift from at least marginal Obama support (it wasn't like either of his opponents were charismatic men who captured the imagination of younger voters) to those who never in a million years want Hillary in the White House. Some of those people voted Trump, a few voted third party. But my anecdotal evidence is to suggest that Hillary utterly failed to capture the imagination in the way Obama did. As one friend put it: "As a feminist, I have longed to see the day when we put a woman in the White House. Why did the first option for that have to be someone I really don't want to vote for?"
Posts: 238 | Registered: Oct 2004
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Teekeey Misha
Shipmate
# 18604
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Posted
Just had a quick glance back at the beginning of the thread (Nov 2014.)
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
The USA will get a conservative Republican, and you and the rest of the world had better hope he's not one of the batshit crazy ones.
Hmmm. Well, that went well, then!
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Misha
Don't assume I don't care; sometimes I just can't be bothered to put you right.
Posts: 296 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2016
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
Did I really say that? Yes I did
![[Hot and Hormonal]](icon_redface.gif)
Mind you, I don't think Trump is either a conservative Republican or batshit crazy. I don't think I'd ever accuse him of sincerity. Most of the batshit crazies were sincere. Nor would I call him a conservative Republican. He simply became whatever he needed to be to win. He may have convictions but I've got no very clear idea what they are. Other than a vastly exaggerated view of his own capabilities.
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
Did I really say that? Yes I did
Mind you, I don't think Trump is either a conservative Republican or batshit crazy. I don't think I'd ever accuse him of sincerity. Most of the batshit crazies were sincere. Nor would I call him a conservative Republican. He simply became whatever he needed to be to win. He may have convictions but I've got no very clear idea what they are. Other than a vastly exaggerated view of his own capabilities.
I'd say there's a very good case to be made that he's a neo-nazi.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe:
quote:
Originally posted by TurquoiseTastic:
Did the Democrats have anyone better though?
Joe Biden.
But, sadly, Joe said no. As did Elizabeth Warren.
Bernie said yes and the DNC didn't exactly go out of their way to roll out the welcome mat.
If they could have talked Warren into running a Sanders/Warren ticket might have been a winner.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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Teekeey Misha
Shipmate
# 18604
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
He simply became whatever he needed to be to win. He may have convictions but I've got no very clear idea what they are. Other than a vastly exaggerated view of his own capabilities.
I have no idea what he is, or thinks he is, or was, or wishes he was or wants to be. Just about the only thing I'd put money on is that he is absolutely, definitely bat shit crazy.
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Misha
Don't assume I don't care; sometimes I just can't be bothered to put you right.
Posts: 296 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2016
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
mousethief
Nazi is short for national socialist. Into saving 'us' from 'our enemies'. Don't really think Trump cares very much about any 'us' however much he might fake it that he does.
I guess he and Hitler might have megalomania in common. But, in a batshit crazy kind of way, I think Hitler was sincere.
Teekee Misha
I guess the kind of Type A leader personality he displays might shade into psychopath. At least I wouldn't be surprised. But that's more deviously crafty crazy, rather than your genuine batshit type. Mostly they are sincere, even if the sincerity is potty.
(ETA. Good Lord, I've just hit the 20,000 post mark. I need to get out more ...)
[ 14. November 2016, 00:54: Message edited by: Barnabas62 ]
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
.... and as the sun slowly sinks in the Western Sky (it sank over here several hours ago) we say farewell to this long discussion thread. And look forward two or three years to the rising of a new dawn, a new hope ....
Meanwhile all your thoughts can continue on the aftermath thread as we all come to terms with a Trump Presidency.
Many thanks to all participants (yes all) but an especial word of thanks to Croesos for his very helpful periodic updates and summaries.
Thread closed
Barnabas62
Purgatory Host
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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