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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Purgatory: U.S. Presidential Election 2016
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Moo:
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
If she honestly believed it, I would be careful describing it as a false claim. A mistaken claim would be a better description.
Okay, a mistaken claim. The point is that confronted with very solid evidence of the mistake*, she refused to look at it. She still insists she's part Cherokee.
*The Cherokee genealogists had very extensive records.
Moo
Is there an American edition of Who Do You Think You Are? It's one of the things about the show that's quite interesting, how the stories handed down in families often to turn out to be true, but also that some of them are partly true but a little garbled (such as a couple of different facts getting mashed together).
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
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Posted
quote:
originally posted by Callan:
If John McCain had won in 2008, would there have been all this stuff about him being a covert Muslim and not, actually, being a citizen of the US at all? I don't think there would.
Actually, the John McCain isn't a natural born citizen card was already in the works because John McCain was born in the Panama Canal zone. Nobody would have claimed McCain was a Muslim because McCains father isn't a Muslim and his school records from Indonesia don't list him as being a Muslim. Chances are very good another conspiracy theory about John McCain would have arisen in due time. Conspiracy theorists always come up with something to hang on the president.
Now, the question here is how many of those people who claim Obama was a Muslim and not a citizen would have voted for him even if they didn't have the slightest doubt about his religion or place of birth.
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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan
Posts: 8411 | From: By a large lake | Registered: Jul 2006
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
Moo,
I've been looking at this Elizabeth Warren Cherokee business.
I can't actually find anything in the reports that consists of solid evidence she's wrong. I can only find reports showing that she lacks solid evidence that she's right.
Which isn't the same thing.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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seekingsister
Shipmate
# 17707
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by tclune:
My understanding is that he won by a landslide -- 9-0.
--Tom Clune
Nice one ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
Posts: 1371 | From: London | Registered: May 2013
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
Moo, I am part Cherokee, but none of the official people will acknowledge it, papers and family history--and physical resemblances--notwithstanding. My ancestors, like so many others, missed out on the Dawes Roll thing. In our case we applied too early and then didn't reapply--IIRC there were several years worth of applications where this happened to people, so much so that the gen. research sites suggest alternative methods for those caught in this bind. But that isn't going to get me tribal recognition regardless of what I prove. Great-great-granddad didn't sign up properly and so we missed out on land ownership, among other things (which is the humorous example I use with students to remind them to sign my attendance sheet!). There are also plenty of tribes (since Warren has claimed two) that won't officially recognize people who don't have a certain percentage of Indian blood, which means that in one generation you can go from accepted to "go away." There is also the problem of the freedmen--people (often black) who lived with the tribes and sometimes intermarried, who were Cherokee or whatever in all ways except birth--there are fights about how to designate these people and their descendants. Do they count as Indian or not?
Indian gen. research is complicated by the fact that some families have generations that purposely hid their identity for reasons of shame or racism. Grandma V did this, and the family history was whispered in corners. Easy not to know if no one whispered to you! like some of Warren's cousins. In my case, Grandma's mother was still living and damn proud of her ethnicity when I questioned her (not too pleased with daughter's hushhush attempt, which probably contributed to their alienation over the years). But what if she'd been dead already? I would never have known they sent her to Indian school.
I'm guessing at least half of those with Indian ancestry are in similar nonprovable boats. And I am worse than Warren as I have always checked the Indian box on forms, and even benefitted from cultural enrichment programs in primary school, despite having even today no official "proof" of my ancestry. (And I refrain from allowing school pubs etc to designate me as first Indian whatever, just as Warren did, because I'm embarrassed to do so when I retain neither the language nor the culture nor anything but blood by my generation. Too embarrassing to claim a distinction that should go to someone with a clear and living tie to the modern tribes.)
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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Moo
Ship's tough old bird
# 107
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
I can't actually find anything in the reports that consists of solid evidence she's wrong. I can only find reports showing that she lacks solid evidence that she's right.
Which isn't the same thing.
Here is some evidence.
Even if her family story were true, she is only 1/32 Cherokee. This should not qualify her for affirmative action. I would have no problem with her claiming to be Cherokee if she had not claimed special benefits.
Moo
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Kerygmania host
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See you later, alligator.
Posts: 20365 | From: Alleghany Mountains of Virginia | Registered: May 2001
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
I can't find anything saying she ended up in affirmative action or any other program (unlike me). Could you direct me?
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
Your link goes to a woman who claims that if you aren"t enrolled in one of 3 official groups, you simply aren"t Cherokee. Which is a bald assertion, as well as nonsense (since new applicants would logically go from being "not Cherokee" to "Cherokee" as soon as accepted, despite having undergone no ontological change.)
I mean, she"s entitled to assert such things, but I see no reason why anyone else should accept her assertion.
Drat this sprained thumb!
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Moo:
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
I can't actually find anything in the reports that consists of solid evidence she's wrong. I can only find reports showing that she lacks solid evidence that she's right.
Which isn't the same thing.
Here is some evidence.
Even if her family story were true, she is only 1/32 Cherokee. This should not qualify her for affirmative action. I would have no problem with her claiming to be Cherokee if she had not claimed special benefits.
Moo
Evidence? That's a list of a few of her ancestors, not all of them. I don't even know if any of the people on that list are the ones that Warren ever claimed had Native American blood in them.
And like Lamb Chopped, I haven't seen anything in my research this evening that demonstrates Warren claimed special benefits. As far as I can see, she made the claim after being employed, not before, and in fact it's her failure to claim any special benefit while a student that has people saying she's been inconsistent.
[ 06. November 2014, 13:21: Message edited by: orfeo ]
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
PS, At the very least, none of the people in that "evidence" appear to be the person married in 1884 that was at the centre of other discussions I saw.
It feels a bit like pointing at all my great-great-great-grandparents who never claimed to be Cornish to refute the particular one who did so claim.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Gwai
Shipmate
# 11076
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Posted
Let's say she is wrong, and she has no ancestors who either are Cherokee or have lived as Cherokee.* As long as she truly believed she was Cherokee, surely it was reasonable for her to accept aid as Cherokee. And considering how much valid debate there is about what it really means to be Cherokee (thinking of Lamb Chopped's post as an excellent example of this) why on earth would she automatically take other people's opinion of whether she's Cherokee above what she knows from relatives she trusts?
*Avoiding debate about what it means to be Cherokee.
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A master of men was the Goodly Fere,
A mate of the wind and sea.
If they think they ha’ slain our Goodly Fere
They are fools eternally.
Posts: 11914 | From: Chicago | Registered: Feb 2006
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by seekingsister:
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
I dunno. People have shown a remarkable capacity to obsess over the birthplace of a President...
Well they will reap what they sow, Ted Cruz was born in Canada and only recently gave up his Canadian citizenship. Is he a socialist spy from the North? They have free healthcare up there - gasp!
I don't understand this.
1. If the accusation is that you have to have been born a US citizen on US soil to be president, how come this person can be a candidate at all? After all, until recently he has owed allegiance to the lineal descendant of George III.
2. Going back to Barak Obama, am I right that the accusation by the conspiracy theorists isn't that he is barred because Hawaii isn't really in the US - even though the rest of us all think it is - but that he wasn't really born there at all and the records have been faked? Presumably this was by someone who had a strange foreknowledge that in 48 years time this small baby was going to run for president.
3. If the US is a secular state, why would being a Moslem - if he were one which it seems very clear to everyone else that he isn't - bar one from being president?
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Moo:
Here is some evidence. ...
I don't know anything about the issue behind this, but what a seriously malevolent site.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
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Posted
Ted Cruz may not be eligible to be president. He probably is and Obama would have likely been eligible even if he had been born in Kenya. Being a Muslim wouldn't disqualify Barack Obama or anybody else from serving as president. Nobody claims Hawaii wasn't a state when Obama was born.
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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan
Posts: 8411 | From: By a large lake | Registered: Jul 2006
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Pigwidgeon
Ship's Owl
# 10192
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by tclune:
quote:
Originally posted by Pigwidgeon:
quote:
Originally posted by seekingsister:
The last GOP president to get in was GWB, the first time he barely won...
That's still a matter of debate.
My understanding is that he won by a landslide -- 9-0.
--Tom Clune
Nope, it was 5-4.
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"...that is generally a matter for Pigwidgeon, several other consenting adults, a bottle of cheap Gin and the odd giraffe."
~Tortuf
Posts: 9835 | From: Hogwarts | Registered: Aug 2005
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by seekingsister:
[qb] Going back to Barak Obama, am I right that the accusation by the conspiracy theorists isn't that he is barred because Hawaii isn't really in the US - even though the rest of us all think it is - but that he wasn't really born there at all and the records have been faked? Presumably this was by someone who had a strange foreknowledge that in 48 years time this small baby was going to run for president.
Yes, that is the way the conspiracy runs. Jon Stewart and many others have had a field day just basically running thru the implications of the conspiracy theory-- which not only involves his father plotting this long, involved 48 year plot and then leaving the scene, but also involves the knowing cooperation of a huge web of government officials from the governor of Hawaii on down. The fact that there are, in fact, people who actually believe this is... well, let's just say, remarkable.
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
If the US is a secular state, why would being a Moslem - if he were one which it seems very clear to everyone else that he isn't - bar one from being president?
No official bar, just the usual "electability" questions in a deeply "religious" (in some sense) nation.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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Pigwidgeon
Ship's Owl
# 10192
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
Ted Cruz may not be eligible to be president. He probably is and Obama would have likely been eligible even if he had been born in Kenya.
"No person except a natural born citizen, or a citizen of the United States, at the time of the adoption of this Constitution, shall be eligible to the office of President."
I've wondered why this was never brought up when Mitt's dad was trying to get the nomination. (He was born in a Mormon settlement in Mexico.)
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"...that is generally a matter for Pigwidgeon, several other consenting adults, a bottle of cheap Gin and the odd giraffe."
~Tortuf
Posts: 9835 | From: Hogwarts | Registered: Aug 2005
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Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
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Posted
It was.
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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan
Posts: 8411 | From: By a large lake | Registered: Jul 2006
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Pigwidgeon:
"No person except a natural born citizen, or a citizen of the United States, at the time of the adoption of this Constitution, shall be eligible to the office of President."
I've wondered why this was never brought up when Mitt's dad was trying to get the nomination. (He was born in a Mormon settlement in Mexico.)
I assume that's what it means, rather than that it bars those born by caesarian section, i.e. like Macduff "from his mother’s womb untimely ripped."
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061
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Posted
And John McCain was born in Panama, where his father was serving in the US military.
The 'birtherism' nuttiness is merely a thin veil for racism. Which is why it is important for the fantasy birth place to be Kenya. It would never do for the late Mr. Obama to have his future-president son in, say, Belgium or Canada.
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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page
Posts: 6378 | From: Washington DC | Registered: Mar 2014
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Jahlove
Tied to the mast
# 10290
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
Ted Cruz may not be eligible to be president. He probably is and Obama would have likely been eligible even if he had been born in Kenya. Being a Muslim wouldn't disqualify Barack Obama or anybody else from serving as president. Nobody claims Hawaii wasn't a state when Obama was born.
I am not a fan of Barack Obama (not a fan of any politicos, actually) but this is something I really don't get - the so-called "Birther" position.
My query is - Obama's mother was unquestionably a US citizen - surely, whatever the nationality of his father, wherever he was born, wherever he later moved to, wherever he was schooled, he inherits US citizenship through her (to say otherwise would be to say that if a female US diplomat serving in, say, Germany, gave birth outside of the US embassy or certain military bases in a foreign country with or without a named father) then that child would NOT be a "natural born US citizen) which seems absurd.
I have also asked the question on sites considerably less Obama-friendly than this one and even the most hard-line anti-Obamaists conclude that the "Birther" stance doesn't hold water (which makes me wonder why they even bother pushing that angle but hey).
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“Sing like no one's listening, love like you've never been hurt, dance like nobody's watching, and live like its heaven on earth.” - Mark Twain
Posts: 6477 | From: Alice's Restaurant (UK Franchise) | Registered: Sep 2005
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seekingsister
Shipmate
# 17707
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Posted
The "birther" thing is not based in reality, so it will be fun to ask why Ted Cruz qualifies to run for president and see them splutter to explain.
Kenyan birth or not, Obama has never been accused of being a dual citizen to my knowledge - unlike Ted Cruz and Michele Bachmann. Having an allegiance to a foreign country (and in Bachmann's case a choice she made as an adult) surely is more of an issue than being born to an American woman abroad.
Posts: 1371 | From: London | Registered: May 2013
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Pigwidgeon
Ship's Owl
# 10192
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
And John McCain was born in Panama, where his father was serving in the US military.
I believe he was born in the Canal Zone, which was U.S. territory at the time.
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"...that is generally a matter for Pigwidgeon, several other consenting adults, a bottle of cheap Gin and the odd giraffe."
~Tortuf
Posts: 9835 | From: Hogwarts | Registered: Aug 2005
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Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061
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Posted
It was. And his parents were unquestionably US citizens -- I believe his father was a Navy officer. Nevertheless it was not an issue for McCain in any way. Because of his skin color.
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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page
Posts: 6378 | From: Washington DC | Registered: Mar 2014
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Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
And John McCain was born in Panama, where his father was serving in the US military.
The 'birtherism' nuttiness is merely a thin veil for racism. Which is why it is important for the fantasy birth place to be Kenya. It would never do for the late Mr. Obama to have his future-president son in, say, Belgium or Canada.
The issue WAS raised about John McCain. You seem to be under the impression that John McCain and his followers made a big deal about Obama's birthplace. John McCain did not. The people who did weren't and aren't big fans of John McCain either. The highest profile person to make an issue of this was Donald Trump who frequently makes a big deal about possibly running for president in order to gin up interest in The Apprentice. Obama's father was from Kenya. Why claim Obama was born in Canada or Belgium?
Here is the wikipedia article on the natural born citizen clause including a list of presidential candidates whose eligibility under the natural born citizen clause has been questioned. Barack Obama was not the first. One of the arguments even assumed he was born in Hawaii.
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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan
Posts: 8411 | From: By a large lake | Registered: Jul 2006
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seekingsister
Shipmate
# 17707
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
The issue WAS raised about John McCain.
Not to the degree it was about Obama - not even close.
Posts: 1371 | From: London | Registered: May 2013
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Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
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Posted
That's because Obama won the election and McCain did not.
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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan
Posts: 8411 | From: By a large lake | Registered: Jul 2006
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
That's because Obama won the election and McCain did not.
The view from outside was that it was all about race and racism.
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by seekingsister:
quote:
Originally posted by tclune:
My understanding is that he won by a landslide -- 9-0.
--Tom Clune
Nice one
Seconded. The tclune cutting edge at work. Nice to see you again, Tom.
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Callan:
If John McCain had won in 2008, would there have been all this stuff about him being a covert Muslim and not, actually, being a citizen of the US at all? I don't think there would.
Well, McCain's citizenship has been questioned, at times, because he was born in the Panama Canal Zone.
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
Also a concert pianist. That definitely would rate highly in my book. Not that I have a vote.
And Condi should stick with that--exclusively.
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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Crœsos
Shipmate
# 238
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
quote:
Originally posted by Callan:
If John McCain had won in 2008, would there have been all this stuff about him being a covert Muslim and not, actually, being a citizen of the US at all? I don't think there would.
Well, McCain's citizenship has been questioned, at times, because he was born in the Panama Canal Zone.
I think it's more accurate to say that John McCain's birthplace being in Panama has been mentioned at times, most often to point out the intellectual inconsistency of various birthers. His citizenship has never really been questioned.
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Humani nil a me alienum puto
Posts: 10706 | From: Sardis, Lydia | Registered: May 2001
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
Nobody claims Hawaii wasn't a state when Obama was born.
Except a small number of Hawaiians, but for entirely different motives!
At least it's now acknowledged the original takeover was unlawful.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:
I think it's more accurate to say that John McCain's birthplace being in Panama has been mentioned at times, most often to point out the intellectual inconsistency of various birthers. His citizenship has never really been questioned.
Plug "McCain's citizenship questioned" into a search engine. Or read the Snopes.com article.
[ 06. November 2014, 20:46: Message edited by: Golden Key ]
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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Moo
Ship's tough old bird
# 107
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
Evidence? That's a list of a few of her ancestors, not all of them. I don't even know if any of the people on that list are the ones that Warren ever claimed had Native American blood in them.
That is a list of her maternal ancestors to the fourth generation. She claimed Cherokee ancestry through her mother.
quote:
And like Lamb Chopped, I haven't seen anything in my research this evening that demonstrates Warren claimed special benefits. As far as I can see, she made the claim after being employed, not before, and in fact it's her failure to claim any special benefit while a student that has people saying she's been inconsistent.
Here are three snippets from this site which I linked to earlier. quote:
The Boston Herald reported in April that Warren had listed herself as a minority in the American Association of Law Schools directory and that Harvard Law School had touted her supposed lineage when the program faced doubts about faculty diversity.
{snip}
But Penn’s 2005 Minority Equity Report identified her as the recipient of a 1994 faculty award, listing her name in bold to signify that she was a minority.
{snip}
Harvard hired Warren for a temporary position in 1992, and the law school reported a Native American woman on its federally mandated affirmative-action report. The program did not report a Native American woman for 1993 through 1995, during which time Warren was back at Penn — she had spurned Harvard’s initial offer of a tenured position, according to a Globe report.
As I said before, I have no problem with Warren honestly believing that she had Cherokee ancestry and listing it on applications, etc. My problem is that she refused to discuss the matter with the Cherokee genealogists and tribal leaders. It is one thing to make an honest mistake, even if you benefit from it, and another to refuse to consider any evidence that it was a mistake.
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Kerygmania host
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See you later, alligator.
Posts: 20365 | From: Alleghany Mountains of Virginia | Registered: May 2001
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Moo
Ship's tough old bird
# 107
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
I don't know anything about the issue behind this, but what a seriously malevolent site.
As I said in my first post on this topic, the Cherokees are very angry--as angry as black people would be if they learned that a white person had claimed to be black in order to benefit from affirmative action.
Moo
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Kerygmania host
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See you later, alligator.
Posts: 20365 | From: Alleghany Mountains of Virginia | Registered: May 2001
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Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
quote:
Originally posted by Callan:
If John McCain had won in 2008, would there have been all this stuff about him being a covert Muslim and not, actually, being a citizen of the US at all? I don't think there would.
Well, McCain's citizenship has been questioned, at times, because he was born in the Panama Canal Zone.
I think it's more accurate to say that John McCain's birthplace being in Panama has been mentioned at times, most often to point out the intellectual inconsistency of various birthers. His citizenship has never really been questioned.
If by mentioned, you mean filing a federal lawsuit challenging his eligibility then yes it's been mentioned.
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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan
Posts: 8411 | From: By a large lake | Registered: Jul 2006
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
When Madeleine Albright found out she had Jewish ancestry (while she was SoS, IIRC) and mentioned it, some in the American Jewish community were very suspicious, thinking she was making it up for some sort of political gain.
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Moo:
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
Evidence? That's a list of a few of her ancestors, not all of them. I don't even know if any of the people on that list are the ones that Warren ever claimed had Native American blood in them.
That is a list of her maternal ancestors to the fourth generation. She claimed Cherokee ancestry through her mother.
My point is on her mother's side she has 2 grandparents, 4 great-grandparents, 8 great-great-grandparents and 16 great-great-great-grandparents. Are we even looking at the right ones here? Because we sure as heck aren't looking at a COMPLETE list of her maternal ancestors to the fourth generation.
[ 06. November 2014, 21:56: Message edited by: orfeo ]
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Pigwidgeon:
quote:
Originally posted by tclune:
My understanding is that he won by a landslide -- 9-0.
--Tom Clune
Nope, it was 5-4.
Yes. The 4 were a small sign of *some* sanity on the court. The 5 should've been fired--it wasn't their decision to make.
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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Moo
Ship's tough old bird
# 107
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Posted
She claimed Cherokee ancestry though her mother. The census reports consistently listed her mother as white.
Moo
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Kerygmania host
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See you later, alligator.
Posts: 20365 | From: Alleghany Mountains of Virginia | Registered: May 2001
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
Sorry, I went one generation too far. But it immediately struck me that there is only 1 entry per generation, which is clearly wrong. There is one great-great-grandfather listed. Even restricting to her mother's side, there should be 4-great-great-grandfathers and 4 great-great-grandmothers listed.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Moo:
As I said in my first post on this topic, the Cherokees are very angry--as angry as black people would be if they learned that a white person had claimed to be black in order to benefit from affirmative action.
No. That is evidence that a person or persons unknown for some reason known to them has sufficient personal dislike of Mrs Warren to set up a blogsite to express that dislike. The website is designed simply so as to encourage other people to dislike her too.
Look, I'm a foreigner. I don't know who Mrs Warrant is. Before this thread, I'd never heard of her. Unless she becomes the next US president in two years time, it's quite possible I won't hear of her again. But I can tell this from the way the website sets itself up and presents its case.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Moo:
She claimed Cherokee ancestry though her mother. The census reports consistently listed her mother as white.
Moo
Census reports don't go into details of mixture, though, do they? I mean, if someone asked me about my national heritage I'd want to tell them I was half-English with a fair amount of Irish believed to be in the other half, and a suspected dash of Cornish but we can only find that bloke's marriage certificate in London where he says he was from St Ives but we've not found anything to verify that claim... but I doubt there's a box for that.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
Part of what complicates things is that, at the time people started paying attention you these things, several tribes had unified to create the Cherokee Nation. The Cherokee nation was comprised of a huge hunk of the southeast and midwest-- huge. So a lot of people who do have distant Native American ancestry might be inclined to say they are part Cherokee, as that gives a better chance at technical accuracy
One of my great grandparents had a Native American wife, and my best guess at the tribe based on her dress in the pic I saw was ?? Navajo, maybe? But the family has always called her " Cherokee." And I didn't even know she existed till I was 27. Just before I married.
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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Moo
Ship's tough old bird
# 107
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Posted
If her mother had any Cherokee ancestry, then Elizabeth has only half as much. If her mother did not have enough Indian ancestry to list it on a census form, Elizabeth, with only half as much, should not have listed it on any application.
I read a lot more about this two years ago when the subject first came up. I don't remember what all the websites were, but I read Warren's side as well as the Cherokees. The Cherokees were far more convincing, and I hold it very much against Warren that she refused to talk to them.
Moo
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See you later, alligator.
Posts: 20365 | From: Alleghany Mountains of Virginia | Registered: May 2001
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
I don't fuss either way about E's ancestry. However, maybe her mom thought it was wiser not to claim Cherokee on the census?
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Moo:
If her mother had any Cherokee ancestry, then Elizabeth has only half as much. If her mother did not have enough Indian ancestry to list it on a census form, Elizabeth, with only half as much, should not have listed it on any application.
I read a lot more about this two years ago when the subject first came up. I don't remember what all the websites were, but I read Warren's side as well as the Cherokees. The Cherokees were far more convincing, and I hold it very much against Warren that she refused to talk to them.
Moo
But it doesn't work this way. The census forms ask YOU to identify what you are, and until very recently, they forced you to pick a single category. Thus most of my ancestors picked "white" (including those who were 50% Cherokee, no doubt) because you had only two choices--and one was considerably more socially acceptable than the other.
I estimate that Grandma who hid her ethnicity was either 25% or 50% Cherokee. Judging by her appearance, I'm guessing 50%. Given her dislike of Indian ancestry, she would certainly have answered "white." Her son my father looks fullblood though he is at best 25%, and he also answered "white." I have answered "white" up until the last census, when I was able to indicate mixed heritage. My son will have to indicate THREE heritages if he so chooses. Or who knows? He may default to "white" as well, despite being less than 50% white in the mix.
Oh, and Great-grandma, who was quite like a fullblood Cherokee? She married a white Scotsman. Guess who filled out the census forms for his household? And in a day when people were still writing "squaw" on census forms (or not much later than that), three guesses what he would be motivated to write for the whole household?
As for the Cherokee Nation et al--I'm rather pissed at them for insisting on drawing a hard bright line between those who can prove their ancestry (to a very specific set of standards) and those who have a more distant derivation or a derivation provable by something other than the fucking Dawes Rolls. I don't mind the legal qualificatons for federal aid, etc. That's reasonable, since some test must exist. But to say or imply "you're not allowed to call yourself Cherokee because you don't meet this highly specific test of ancestry which is based on the US government's enrollment (not something the Cherokees dreamed up, and not something they administered either--and weren't they mishandling all kinds of Indian-related shit at the time? what makes them so trustworthy in this, then?)--
Well.
I'm not claiming aid. I wouldn't take it if it were offered. But I damn well don't want to have a treasured part of my family heritage taken from me because it's un-PC of me to mention it without having fully-signed up Cherokee Nation membership--or provable eligibility for same.
[Damn. It's like being told you're not a Jew because God forbid, you believe in Jesus. Never mind who gave you birth.]
ETA: As for refusing to talk to them, I don't know what she had going on specifically, but I know--because I've checked--that they would throw me out in a heartbeat. Their interest is in whether you meet membership criteria--which I don't, and probably never will.
[ 06. November 2014, 22:33: Message edited by: Lamb Chopped ]
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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Moo
Ship's tough old bird
# 107
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
I don't mind the legal qualifications for federal aid, etc. That's reasonable, since some test must exist.
{snip}
I'm not claiming aid. I wouldn't take it if it were offered.
The difference between you and Elizabeth Warren is that she listed herself as Native American, and thereby made herself a more desirable university hire.
I have said more than once that I don't care whether she called herself a Cherokee. I object strongly to the fact that she exploited the designation.
Moo
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Kerygmania host
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See you later, alligator.
Posts: 20365 | From: Alleghany Mountains of Virginia | Registered: May 2001
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