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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Purgatory: U.S. Presidential Election 2016
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chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Honest Ron Bacardi:
Viciousness, fear etc. is a human weakness, as lilBuddha points out. Not an attractive one under the circumstances, but maybe it served some function in other more evolutionary situations. I'd need to think about that. Or maybe it's just a perversion of a protective impulse.
The other way of looking at it was that there is an entire group of people in society whose identity was largely built on notions of superiority over various out groups and that earlier iterations of liberalism basically bought them off by providing them with specific niche livelihoods which they could valorize.
Changes in the economy mean that they can longer maintain the positions of relative advantage that they once enjoyed, and as they have know that they are better than all these uppity blacks/gays/women it is clearly someone else's fault.
Posts: 4035 | From: Berkshire | Registered: May 2007
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by saysay:
quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:
Mr. Miller's article was lengthy, but its entire purpose can be summed up from two lines near the end.
Crœsos post was short, but its entire purpose can be gleaned from the rest of his posting habits: he is trying to make people run screaming away from anyone who calls themselves a liberal or progressive.
Yep. Even if it means ignoring the racism and excessive greed that is now running rampant in the GOP and indeed, in his own heart (because yes, he DID get in some neatly concealed homophobic and other digs under the guise of addressing liberal excess).
I'm certainly willing to admit there are radical liberals with problematic agendas. I'm certainly willing to admit we have our own sacred cows that don't bear up well to close inspection. But the degree of projection the author is engaging in here is worth of it's own Vegas act, complete with scantily clad showgirls in 8 foot headpieces (all the better to distract you my dear).
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by saysay:
quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:
Mr. Miller's article was lengthy, but its entire purpose can be summed up from two lines near the end.
Crœsos post was short, but its entire purpose can be gleaned from the rest of his posting habits: he is trying to make people run screaming away from anyone who calls themselves a liberal or progressive.
I must be missing something, because it read the exact opposite to me.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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saysay
Ship's Praying Mantis
# 6645
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
Yep. Even if it means ignoring the racism and excessive greed that is now running rampant in the GOP and indeed, in his own heart (because yes, he DID get in some neatly concealed homophobic and other digs under the guise of addressing liberal excess).
I'm certainly willing to admit there are radical liberals with problematic agendas. I'm certainly willing to admit we have our own sacred cows that don't bear up well to close inspection. But the degree of projection the author is engaging in here is worth of it's own Vegas act, complete with scantily clad showgirls in 8 foot headpieces (all the better to distract you my dear).
I'm constantly amazed at the number of people who call themselves liberals or progressives who also happen to be psychic and know what people they've never met really think and feel and have in their heart. But I think I pointed that out in a previous post to Golden Key.
Most of us get it: you, the college educated brainwashed, are our betters. You have made it clear how much you despise the majority of humanity (which, as it happens, includes any number of people of color, homosexuals, people of different religions, etc. who you don't despise as long as they primarily identify as a member of that minority). You will never listen to anyone or anything that doesn't fit neatly into your version of the Narrative. You will prosecute heresy with a zeal that would have made the Inquisition proud.
Most of America doesn't have a major problem with a couple of radical liberals with problematic agendas (I won't hold you responsible for your fringe lunatics as long as you don't hold me responsible for Fred Phelps). At this point, the entire Progressive movement is problematic. A good number of the people I know have at least entertained the possibility that Trump is being paid by the Clintons because his being the Republican candidate is the only way she'll get elected. Biden's right: if Trump is the Republican candidate, she strolls to victory (although I'm still holding out hope for a write-in vote for Omar).
But go on, keep insisting on your Narratives. It's never been about the majority of people anyway, it's always been about the elite's ability to maintain their power by any means necessary.
Oh, I know, the Narrative insists that the anger is because white men are losing the arbitrary power they once had on account of being white men, blah, blah, blah. But there wasn't this kind of anger four and eight years ago.
Is there ever a point when Progressives will listen when people try to point out the problems with their behavior? (Yeah, I didn't think so). Political correctness involves the presumption of guilt; Progressive original sin but without the possibility of redemption.
Carry on making yourselves irrelevant to the majority. (And wondering why Trump is popular, and telling people what they really think and feel and why, etc.)
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"It's been a long day without you, my friend
I'll tell you all about it when I see you again"
"'Oh sweet baby purple Jesus' - that's a direct quote from a 9 year old - shoutout to purple Jesus."
Posts: 2943 | From: The Wire | Registered: May 2004
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
That's quite a blast of hell-fire for Purgatory.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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saysay
Ship's Praying Mantis
# 6645
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Posted
And if it reads too much like a personal attack on cliffdweller, I will apologize. I meant it more as a counter rhetorical tactic on a group ('you' as opposed to the 'they' Progressives frequently refer to).
Maybe it didn't work and/or that wasn't clear. Wouldn't be the first time.
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"It's been a long day without you, my friend
I'll tell you all about it when I see you again"
"'Oh sweet baby purple Jesus' - that's a direct quote from a 9 year old - shoutout to purple Jesus."
Posts: 2943 | From: The Wire | Registered: May 2004
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ldjjd
Shipmate
# 17390
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Posted
What a nuanced, balanced, fact-based analysis of us liberals/progressives, SaySay.
[ 10. December 2015, 04:19: Message edited by: ldjjd ]
Posts: 294 | Registered: Oct 2012
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ldjjd
Shipmate
# 17390
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Posted
saysay says,
"I'm constantly amazed at the number of people who call themselves liberals or progressives who also happen to be psychic and know what people they've never met really think and feel and have in their heart."
Saysay on the other hand, has apparently met great numbers of people who call themselves liberals or progressives, and saysay has the obvious ability to know what they really think and feel and say in their hearts.
[ 10. December 2015, 04:38: Message edited by: ldjjd ]
Posts: 294 | Registered: Oct 2012
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
The irony is strong here.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
You don't have to be a psychic to see and hear a guy at a Trump rally speaking into a microphone his opinion that Muslims should be kept out of the US, in order to know what this guy is thinking. HE JUST TOLD YOU. You have to be asleep not to know what people are saying out loud, in public, to anyone who will listen.
[ 10. December 2015, 04:48: Message edited by: mousethief ]
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
saysay--
Thanks for your explanation. ![[Smile]](smile.gif) I'm thinking through it, and will try to reply within a few days.
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
From Hillary's campaign site:
"No, Donald Trump. We’re not barring Muslims from entering the country. "
She sent a shorter version out to her mailing list, which I'm on.
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
I haven't watched the full interview but it looks as though that 'radical Progressive' Bill O'Reilly took Donald Trump to the cleaners on the stupidity of his proposed blanket ban on Muslims entering the US.
saysay, there is support for Trump's policy amongst supporters of the very right wing UKIP political party in the UK. A lot of UKIP supporters come from. a similar demographic to the majority of Trump supporters. There is something disturbing in this picture of the relatively disadvantaged and alienated sections of our society being attracted to the rage and hate and fear filled rhetoric of Donald Trump. I've listened to a lot of supporters' comments. He is a spokesperson for their frustrations, using plain language to give simple sounding solutions.
What O'Reilly has apparently pointed out is that Trump's proposal does not work in the real world. It's stupid and counter productive. That's not a Progressive agenda in play. That's the logic of enlightened self interest.
Yes, I do believe that there is a need to listen to the frustrations of those segments of society who feel shut out from decisions which affect them. That's not the same as kowtowing to the extreme opinions that some of them now hold. Nor is it about patronising them.
I grew up in a poor, white, working class area of the U.K. I was lucky to have good parents and bright enough to be able to make good use of a decent education. But I know and have not forgotten what deprivation feels like. So it pains me to see folks taken in. Fooled by the likes of Donald Trump. He's pandering and manipulating. A vile Pied Piper. Leading them into a dark place.
[ 10. December 2015, 07:30: Message edited by: Barnabas62 ]
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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ldjjd
Shipmate
# 17390
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Posted
From saysay:
"A good number of the people I know have at least entertained the possibility that Trump is being paid by the Clintons because his being the Republican candidate is the only way she'll get elected."
I'm sure Donald needs the money.
I guess saysay scores points, though, because I can't think of anyone I know who would entertain such a possibility.
Well, that proves it. I'm a power hungry elitist, blithly ignoring the deepest feelings and needs of those poor saps who aren't college educated liberals or progressives.
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
hosting/
ldjjd: The temperature has been running high on this thread for a while. Don't take it any higher, or, if you want to trade personal insults, take it to Hell.
Also, please use the boards' quote function when quoting other posters.
The above applies to everyone else, too.
/hosting
[ 10. December 2015, 07:27: Message edited by: Eutychus ]
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
There is something disturbing in this picture of the relatively disadvantaged and alienated sections of our society being attracted to the rage and hate and fear filled rhetoric of Donald Trump.
How odd that they would follow a multi billionaire who could never begin to know how they live
![[Confused]](confused.gif)
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
Worth about $4 billion, Boogie. He understands enough to know how to pander and exploit. Does he actually care?
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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la vie en rouge
Parisienne
# 10688
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
There is something disturbing in this picture of the relatively disadvantaged and alienated sections of our society being attracted to the rage and hate and fear filled rhetoric of Donald Trump. I've listened to a lot of supporters' comments. He is a spokesperson for their frustrations, using plain language to give simple sounding solutions.
Which is what demagogues always do. Over here Marine Lepen plays on exactly the same tactic – taking complex social problems and offering apparently simple solutions. “All we need to do is… We should just…”
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Rent my holiday home in the South of France
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beatmenace
Shipmate
# 16955
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by la vie en rouge:
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
There is something disturbing in this picture of the relatively disadvantaged and alienated sections of our society being attracted to the rage and hate and fear filled rhetoric of Donald Trump. I've listened to a lot of supporters' comments. He is a spokesperson for their frustrations, using plain language to give simple sounding solutions.
Which is what demagogues always do. Over here Marine Lepen plays on exactly the same tactic – taking complex social problems and offering apparently simple solutions. “All we need to do is… We should just…”
And it seems to have worked.
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"I'm the village idiot , aspiring to great things." (The Icicle Works)
Posts: 297 | From: Whitley Bay | Registered: Feb 2012
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
This always happens in times of economic hardship.
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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itsarumdo
Shipmate
# 18174
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Posted
Always, maybe not, but there are striking and rather worrying parallels between 1930's Germany and the contemporary rise of right wing buffoons in democracies in the US, France and elsewhere in the world. Financial and other insecurities, fear. I saw a little gem 2 weeks ago - a bus arrived at the stop I was waiting at, and clearly had many people standing and little room for more passengers. There was no well organmised queue, but heck- this is England and people have an instinctive sense of "who is first in the queue". Well, I was first, but as soon as the bus stopped someone moved up to the doors and made sure he had a place on the bus. He knew what he was doing because he kept his head down all the time. Multiply that fearful act by 10, 100, 1000 and we have a mob who will elect a dictator because he promises to protect them and occasionally direct his piss downwards.
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"Iti sapis potanda tinone" Lycophron
Posts: 994 | From: Planet Zog | Registered: Jul 2014
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Crœsos
Shipmate
# 238
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by saysay:
Oh, I know, the Narrative insists that the anger is because white men are losing the arbitrary power they once had on account of being white men, blah, blah, blah. But there wasn't this kind of anger four and eight years ago.
As someone who actually remembers the last eight years, this seems remarkably revisionist. I seem to recall how the secret Commie-Muslim-Kenyan usurper was going to kill everyone's grandma with death panels once he was done "palling around with terrorists". Insisting that all Mexican immigrants (regardless of legality) are rapists and drug dealers or that all Muslims are secretly terrorist-traitors waiting for the right moment to strike is just the next logical step in the progression.
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Humani nil a me alienum puto
Posts: 10706 | From: Sardis, Lydia | Registered: May 2001
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
There is something disturbing in this picture of the relatively disadvantaged and alienated sections of our society being attracted to the rage and hate and fear filled rhetoric of Donald Trump.
How odd that they would follow a multi billionaire who could never begin to know how they live
He plays into the "self-made" myth and presents an image of success*. Also, his money gives him the appearance of independence. And this is not small. The average voter might not truly understand political process, but it is obvious that the system is not properly functioning for their the benefit. Simply not being perceived as part of the system has strong appeal, especially in America. That is how the Tea-baggers** came to be elected.
*He is neither self made, nor wildly successful.
**Whether you agree with them or not, they bear much responsibility for the increased inefficiency of the current American government.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338
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Posted
I hope all of those expressing righteous indignation about DJT's latest outburst of insanity and unpleasantness have noted just how well-regarded and received he was by certain UK politicians.
Yes, I'm thinking of one A Salmond who almost single-handedly pushed through planning permission for the Donald's golfing development in Aberdeenshire, despite objections from the RSPB, Natural Heritage Scotland, the site being an SSSI andon one of Europe's largest and most important unspoiled (then) sand dune systems.
Its also interesting to note that when he speaks in the US he wants to keep jobs "for locals" when the reverse is true in Aberdeenshire, with just 60 jobs materialising from the 500+ that were promised when he was trying to get planning permission; most of the staff at DT's golf course have been brought in from elsewhere - immigrants, in fact!
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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
Posts: 4950 | From: somewhere in England... | Registered: Sep 2012
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Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061
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Posted
Which gives us another idea: a [Man who will never be president] fast. Not only not mentioning the dreaded name, but never patronizing any of his many businesses ever again. I had always vaguely associated a [Man who will never be president] property with vulgarity and being expensive; now the name is actively repulsive. He is doing his brand no favors and frankly it is his brand that is the most important to him. The welfare and governance of the USA is way way back there in the rankings.
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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page
Posts: 6378 | From: Washington DC | Registered: Mar 2014
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
The petition in the UK is closing on 500,000 signatures and is, I think, already a record for such petitions in the UK.
I watched O'Reilly-Trump. I thought it was pretty much a soft pedal. Jeremy Paxman or John Humphrys would have eaten Trump alive on the basis of the evidence available. O'Reilly made good points and roundly criticised Trump's position, but then gave Trump a chance to weigh into Hillary Clinton towards the end of the interview, one which he took gleefully.
It looks like the Fox agenda re Trump is "equivocal" at best, but I'm not surprised by that.
[ 10. December 2015, 16:47: Message edited by: Barnabas62 ]
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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saysay
Ship's Praying Mantis
# 6645
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
You don't have to be a psychic to see and hear a guy at a Trump rally speaking into a microphone his opinion that Muslims should be kept out of the US, in order to know what this guy is thinking. HE JUST TOLD YOU. You have to be asleep not to know what people are saying out loud, in public, to anyone who will listen.
OMG! There is still someone on the Left who listens to what people say and takes it at face value. I don't deny that there are people like this out there, and that they are the most likely to attend a Trump rally.
Have you talked to any of the non-rally attending Trump supporters who are showing up in his numbers but don't necessarily fit into the media narrative?
quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:
As someone who actually remembers the last eight years, this seems remarkably revisionist. I seem to recall how the secret Commie-Muslim-Kenyan usurper was going to kill everyone's grandma with death panels once he was done "palling around with terrorists". Insisting that all Mexican immigrants (regardless of legality) are rapists and drug dealers or that all Muslims are secretly terrorist-traitors waiting for the right moment to strike is just the next logical step in the progression.
Oh, I certainly remember the Tea Partiers and the birthers and the Obama is secretly a Muslim people too. And I remember that it seemed to me that both they and the media were trying to make them look like they were a much larger group than they were, and that they somehow represented the 'real' America in a way that citified Democrats did not.
What disturbs me is that now seems to actually be the case.
Given Trump's popularity and what's been going on at college campuses, whatever else happens, I'm guessing this election cycle is going to shift the Overton window.
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"It's been a long day without you, my friend
I'll tell you all about it when I see you again"
"'Oh sweet baby purple Jesus' - that's a direct quote from a 9 year old - shoutout to purple Jesus."
Posts: 2943 | From: The Wire | Registered: May 2004
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chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by saysay:
Oh, I certainly remember the Tea Partiers and the birthers and the Obama is secretly a Muslim people too. And I remember that it seemed to me that both they and the media were trying to make them look like they were a much larger group than they were, and that they somehow represented the 'real' America in a way that citified Democrats did not.
Why do you think they are that much bigger now than they used to be? Your original contention was that they were absent until now - as Creosus points out, they were not. Trump is just the logical progression of what the Tea Party has done at the state level a number of times, except this time with a candidate who isn't backed by one of the traditional conservative power brokers.
Posts: 4035 | From: Berkshire | Registered: May 2007
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chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by saysay:
Yes, Trump has said some thoroughly racist stuff. The media have made some thoroughly moronic commentary ('Muslim' is not a race).
Of course it isn't, but it is used as a shorthand for race (tell me again how the ban will be implemented).
Posts: 4035 | From: Berkshire | Registered: May 2007
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saysay
Ship's Praying Mantis
# 6645
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by chris stiles:
Your original contention was that they were absent until now - as Creosus points out, they were not.
No, I never said that "they" were absent.
What I said was:
quote:
But there wasn't this kind of anger four and eight years ago.
It's perfectly legitimate to interpret that to mean there were no people who were extremely angry at the Democrats, or political figures, or whatnot. However, I meant that there wasn't this kind of widespread anger among people who aren't usually particularly political.
quote:
Why do you think they are that much bigger now than they used to be?
I'm not sure how to parse this sentence. Who are "they" and how are they "bigger?" The Tea Party? But most Trump supporters aren't Tea Partiers. Or are you asking why I think the anger is more widespread (the causality of it)? Or why I think the extreme anger is more widespread?
If it's the last question, I think it because I'm encountering it more often in my day to day life, again, by people who are not particularly involved in politics. Because 2004 featured fuck the south, 2008-2014 featured a lot of people talking about how the nation was dangerously divided and what we could do about that (remember the sit-next-to-a-member-of-the-opposite-party State of the Union?) And in 2015 I'm hearing people talk about Civil War. Didn't used to hear that.
quote:
Originally posted by chris stiles:
quote:
Originally posted by saysay:
Yes, Trump has said some thoroughly racist stuff. The media have made some thoroughly moronic commentary ('Muslim' is not a race).
Of course it isn't, but it is used as a shorthand for race (tell me again how the ban will be implemented).
What circles do you move in that religion is commonly used as a shorthand for race? (I thought that was a Tea Party thing: Obama's black and lived in Kenya, therefore he's Muslim). And are you referring here to Trump's proposed ban on Muslim immigration?
If you want to pick on one of Trump's proposed policies as being impossible to implement (and most that I've seen are), that's a strange one to pick. Ask people their religion. Deny entry to those who identify as Muslim.
Now, tell me again how this proposed gun ban is going to work?
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"It's been a long day without you, my friend
I'll tell you all about it when I see you again"
"'Oh sweet baby purple Jesus' - that's a direct quote from a 9 year old - shoutout to purple Jesus."
Posts: 2943 | From: The Wire | Registered: May 2004
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
If you are entering the country to commit a terrorist act, and you know you will be stopped from entering if you say you are muslim, what do you think you will say when asked if you are a muslim - yes or no ?
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061
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Posted
I remember the day after Obama was elected for the first time. A few of us gathered quietly in the conference room at work (our boss was a rabid Republican) and raised a discreet glass. After 8 years of Bush, the overwhelming feeling was relief. Whew, that was over.
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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page
Posts: 6378 | From: Washington DC | Registered: Mar 2014
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
I found this interesting:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-35047233
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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saysay
Ship's Praying Mantis
# 6645
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink.:
If you are entering the country to commit a terrorist act, and you know you will be stopped from entering if you say you are muslim, what do you think you will say when asked if you are a muslim - yes or no ?
But it's not about whether or not the policy would prevent terrorist attacks any more than any of the Democratic gun control policies that have been proposed in the past few weeks would have kept guns out of the hands of mass shooters (most of the time they wouldn't have).
It's about a nation of crybullies screaming for the government to #DoSomething without regard to whether or not it's effective instead of putting on their big boy/girl/trans/etc, panties and dealing. No one cares that the "something" that gets done doesn't fix the problem it was intended to solve but does make life a lot more annoying to law-abiding citizens until it affects them.
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"It's been a long day without you, my friend
I'll tell you all about it when I see you again"
"'Oh sweet baby purple Jesus' - that's a direct quote from a 9 year old - shoutout to purple Jesus."
Posts: 2943 | From: The Wire | Registered: May 2004
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Louise
Shipmate
# 30
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
I hope all of those expressing righteous indignation about DJT's latest outburst of insanity and unpleasantness have noted just how well-regarded and received he was by certain UK politicians.
Yes, I'm thinking of one A Salmond who almost single-handedly pushed through planning permission for the Donald's golfing development in Aberdeenshire, despite objections from the RSPB, Natural Heritage Scotland, the site being an SSSI andon one of Europe's largest and most important unspoiled (then) sand dune systems.
Its also interesting to note that when he speaks in the US he wants to keep jobs "for locals" when the reverse is true in Aberdeenshire, with just 60 jobs materialising from the 500+ that were promised when he was trying to get planning permission; most of the staff at DT's golf course have been brought in from elsewhere - immigrants, in fact!
While Trump should never have been allowed to do this, the people who originally welcomed him and encouraged him with the golf course on such a sensitive site were Scottish Labour under First Minister Jack McConnell (then in coalition with the Lib Dems), who also gave Trump the 'Global Scot' business ambassador title he's just been stripped of.
You can see how the golf course thing started here
http://www.scotsman.com/news/how-jack-of-clubs-came-up-trumps-for-donald-1-1411884
Trump now hates Salmond and his successors for allowing a wind farm to go ahead within sight of his golf course and he's now looking to Ireland for his latest project.
It's probably fair to say that anything short of having the Greens in power would have led to a similar outcome. Politicians love to take credit for getting jobs and investment for areas where they're scarce and only rediscover their scruples when the other fellow might get credit for it, then all of a sudden what they were supporting last year becomes a terrible thing and what about the sand dunes...
By the way, it was John Swinney who made the planning decision.
[ 11. December 2015, 00:01: Message edited by: Louise ]
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Barnabas62
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# 9110
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Posted
saysay
Looks like you are saying that Trump is pandering to the fearful by offering them stupid counter productive offensive bullshit? I'll drink to that as a summary.
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
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chris stiles
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# 12641
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by saysay:
It's perfectly legitimate to interpret that to mean there were no people who were extremely angry at the Democrats, or political figures, or whatnot. However, I meant that there wasn't this kind of widespread anger among people who aren't usually particularly political.
It was perfectly legitimate to interpret it that way primarily because you were then using it as an argument to disprove a particular narrative.
If you want to bring up levels of anger, then over the last 4-8 years we have had a largely growth-less recovery where the lives of the working class and lower middle-classes have become more precarious (exactly the groups implicated in that narrative).
quote:
quote:
Originally posted by chris stiles:
quote:
Originally posted by saysay:
Yes, Trump has said some thoroughly racist stuff. The media have made some thoroughly moronic commentary ('Muslim' is not a race).
Of course it isn't, but it is used as a shorthand for race (tell me again how the ban will be implemented).
What circles do you move in that religion is commonly used as a shorthand for race? (I thought that was a Tea Party thing: Obama's black and lived in Kenya, therefore he's Muslim).
You just proved my point. To some of Trumo's audience, 'Muslim' functions as a racial designation and so pointing out that 'Muslim isn't a race' is somewhat of a non-sequitur. It matters little what you are I think 'Muslim' means - what matters is what Trump's audience believe it means.
quote:
Now, tell me again how this proposed gun ban is going to work?
I have no idea, I think you mistake me for a US Democrat.
[ 11. December 2015, 00:22: Message edited by: chris stiles ]
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W Hyatt
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# 14250
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink.:
If you are entering the country to commit a terrorist act, and you know you will be stopped from entering if you say you are muslim, what do you think you will say when asked if you are a muslim - yes or no ?
Clearly, you are too mired in the details to appreciate the wonderful simplicity of the solution.
[ 11. December 2015, 01:47: Message edited by: W Hyatt ]
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A new church and a new earth, with Spiritual Insights for Everyday Life.
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by saysay:
quote:
Originally posted by chris stiles:
Your original contention was that they were absent until now - as Creosus points out, they were not.
No, I never said that "they" were absent.
What I said was:
quote:
But there wasn't this kind of anger four and eight years ago.
It's perfectly legitimate to interpret that to mean there were no people who were extremely angry at the Democrats, or political figures, or whatnot. However, I meant that there wasn't this kind of widespread anger among people who aren't usually particularly political.
I hope you pay your words on the Humpty Dumpty pay scale.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
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saysay
Ship's Praying Mantis
# 6645
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by chris stiles:
quote:
Originally posted by saysay:
It's perfectly legitimate to interpret that to mean there were no people who were extremely angry at the Democrats, or political figures, or whatnot. However, I meant that there wasn't this kind of widespread anger among people who aren't usually particularly political.
It was perfectly legitimate to interpret it that way primarily because you were then using it as an argument to disprove a particular narrative.
I didn't use it as an argument to disprove a particular narrative, I used it as an argument to question the narrative, even though I know that heresy is likely to get me accused of being a witch and burned at the stake.
quote:
If you want to bring up levels of anger, then over the last 4-8 years we have had a largely growth-less recovery where the lives of the working class and lower middle-classes have become more precarious (exactly the groups implicated in that narrative).
And yet I wouldn't argue against the idea that economic deprivation causes anger, particularly when there is such a large disparity between the have's and have-nots.
But the narrative you proposed is this:
quote:
The other way of looking at it was that there is an entire group of people in society whose identity was largely built on notions of superiority over various out groups and that earlier iterations of liberalism basically bought them off by providing them with specific niche livelihoods which they could valorize.
Changes in the economy mean that they can longer maintain the positions of relative advantage that they once enjoyed, and as they have know that they are better than all these uppity blacks/gays/women it is clearly someone else's fault.
There's a lot to question in that narrative.
quote:
quote:
quote:
Originally posted by chris stiles:
quote:
Originally posted by saysay:
Yes, Trump has said some thoroughly racist stuff. The media have made some thoroughly moronic commentary ('Muslim' is not a race).
Of course it isn't, but it is used as a shorthand for race (tell me again how the ban will be implemented).
What circles do you move in that religion is commonly used as a shorthand for race? (I thought that was a Tea Party thing: Obama's black and lived in Kenya, therefore he's Muslim).
You just proved my point. To some of Trumo's audience, 'Muslim' functions as a racial designation and so pointing out that 'Muslim isn't a race' is somewhat of a non-sequitur. It matters little what you are I think 'Muslim' means - what matters is what Trump's audience believe it means.
But we're not talking about what Trump said speaking to his audience, we're talking about the media who are supposed to be educated people capable of fact checking. Or do you agree (as most of the media seem to) that facts don't matter as long as you're promoting the narrative and truthiness?
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I'll tell you all about it when I see you again"
"'Oh sweet baby purple Jesus' - that's a direct quote from a 9 year old - shoutout to purple Jesus."
Posts: 2943 | From: The Wire | Registered: May 2004
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lilBuddha
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# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by chris stiles:
quote:
Originally posted by saysay:
It's perfectly legitimate to interpret that to mean there were no people who were extremely angry at the Democrats, or political figures, or whatnot. However, I meant that there wasn't this kind of widespread anger among people who aren't usually particularly political.
It was perfectly legitimate to interpret it that way primarily because you were then using it as an argument to disprove a particular narrative.
If you want to bring up levels of anger, then over the last 4-8 years we have had a largely growth-less recovery where the lives of the working class and lower middle-classes have become more precarious (exactly the groups implicated in that narrative).
Sad thing for his supporters is that Trump is part of the reason for the less than stellar economy. And there is no reason to suppose he will do anything that helps either of those classes. Quite the opposite.
But people rarely vote on reason.
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Hallellou, hallellou
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lilBuddha
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# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by saysay:
truthiness?
More reality in Colbert's truthiness than in anything Trump has vomited from underneath whatever dead animal is perched upon his head.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
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saysay
Ship's Praying Mantis
# 6645
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
I hope you pay your words on the Humpty Dumpty pay scale.
Nope. I'm sometimes a descriptivist and sometimes a presciptivist but I try to be honest about which I'm being in any given situation and why.
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"It's been a long day without you, my friend
I'll tell you all about it when I see you again"
"'Oh sweet baby purple Jesus' - that's a direct quote from a 9 year old - shoutout to purple Jesus."
Posts: 2943 | From: The Wire | Registered: May 2004
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by saysay:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
I hope you pay your words on the Humpty Dumpty pay scale.
Nope. I'm sometimes a descriptivist and sometimes a presciptivist but I try to be honest about which I'm being in any given situation and why.
The problem is when you're a neologist and nobody knows you've invented a new way of using words until after the fact.
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Eutychus
From the edge
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Posted
hosting/
mousethief, step back from the personal insult line. Now.
/hosting
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chris stiles
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# 12641
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by saysay:
There's a lot to question in that narrative.
So question it directly - also note that the economic argument can run side by side with it.
quote:
But we're not talking about what Trump said speaking to his audience, we're talking about the media who are supposed to be educated people capable of fact checking.
In that case I have no idea what you were talking about in that original paragraph. I had assumed given the context that you were complaining that the media had made the claim of 'racist' around Trump's call to ban Muslims from entry to the US.
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Enoch
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# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Sad thing for his supporters is that Trump is part of the reason for the less than stellar economy. ....
Can you really say that? Is that any more than rhetoric?
Hitherto, has he ever been in the position personally to have any serious effect on the national economy at all?
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Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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Tubbs
Miss Congeniality
# 440
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by chris stiles:
quote:
Originally posted by saysay:
There's a lot to question in that narrative.
So question it directly - also note that the economic argument can run side by side with it.
quote:
But we're not talking about what Trump said speaking to his audience, we're talking about the media who are supposed to be educated people capable of fact checking.
In that case I have no idea what you were talking about in that original paragraph. I had assumed given the context that you were complaining that the media had made the claim of 'racist' around Trump's call to ban Muslims from entry to the US.
My understanding is that US media don't have to report actual facts about politicans and the like. This has lead to the rise of channels like Fox News that peddle news with a particular agenda - BE AFRAID AMERICA!
It's an ever decreasing circle. People watch media that renforces their view of the world. The media make shit up. People then repeat that shit as truth as they saw it on a trusted source that must be true.
The thing is, going back to Trump, he did say those things. And the people listening cheered and believe he is right. It's going to be very difficult to change that attitude. In the meantime, others with the power to actually do something, don't so before you know it, you've sleep walked into a situation that's out of control.
The fact that Trump with his nylon hair could get the GOP nomination is within the bounds of possiblity.
Tubbs
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"It's better to keep your mouth shut and be thought a fool than open it up and remove all doubt" - Dennis Thatcher. My blog. Decide for yourself which I am
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cliffdweller
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# 13338
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Posted
Even if Trump does not get the nomination, there's the way that his extreme racism/offensiveness has lowered the bar for everyone. Cruz and other Republican politicians with only slightly less problematic positions start to look "reasonable" simply because they are standing next to this raving loon. (Sorta like the way my vane grandmother always wanted friends who were at least a decade older than her, so that even in her 60s she looked "young" in comparison). So even if Trump is not elected, we'll end up with a situation where about the only real qualification for the presidency is "not advocating mass genocide".
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
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Brenda Clough
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# 18061
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Posted
A reporter spends a weekend with him. It would be a punishment to spend three minutes in an elevator with The Man Who Will Not Be President. This is not a man who should be anywhere near anything important. Who should not be trusted with a house plant.
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