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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Purgatory: U.S. Presidential Election 2016
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RuthW
liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by W Hyatt:
I'm just pointing out that as a small counter-weight to any problems that are weighing it down, it seems to me that it has at least one small advantage by allowing for a result that is less vulnerable to legal challenges.
I'd much rather have an accurate count of the popular vote, which would be possible if we didn't have a such silly piecemeal system for running national elections.
Posts: 24453 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001
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Palimpsest
Shipmate
# 16772
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
quote:
beatmenace: Hillary knew that stock of double-headed coins would come in useful one day.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-elections/iowa-caucus-hillary-clinton-wins-six-delegates-by-coin-toss-a68 48126.html
The internet is having a ball with this, suggesting alternative ways of breaking the tie. A staring contest perhaps?
Thumb-wrestling is the only fair way.
During Bush Gore when it looked really close, ,I was hoping it would come down to a close vote in New Mexico. The way they decide a tie election is the two candidates meet and draw for high card from a deck of cards. That would have been a great way to decide the whole thing.
Posts: 2990 | From: Seattle WA. US | Registered: Nov 2011
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
Re Bush v. Gore:
That's what got me questioning the electoral college. AIUI, they're supposed to have the option to vote differently than what was assigned to them. ISTM that it was obvious that *something* was going on, and maybe they might have been able to spare us Dubya's reign.
Gore should've insisted that all the votes be counted--and he said so, since. That's far more fundamentally important than who wins--and if we lose that, we lose everything. I hate it when election results (at any level) are called by media and pundits before they're all counted. Sure, it sometimes takes extra weeks to count and sort out everything: absentee ballots, provisional ballots, overseas ballots, technical glitches, hacking sabotage, etc. (Here, in SF, ballot boxes have been known to wind up in the bay. And then there's the matter of where absentee ballots wind up, and if they're counted. Best to take them to the main elections office yourself, and watch them put in the box.)
It would be better to just wait, until all ballots are accounted for and counted.
And as for the Supremes... ![[Mad]](angryfire.gif)
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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Og, King of Bashan
Ship's giant Amorite
# 9562
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Posted
The Trump and Carson campaigns are now accusing the Cruz campaign of foul tactics in Iowa.
At some point on Monday evening, a rumor emerged that Carson was flying home, and people wondered if he intended to suspend his campaign. An hour later, we were informed that Carson was, in fact, just flying home to get some clean laundry. End of story, it seemed.
Well now, people are pointing fingers at the Cruz campaign for fanning the flames of the rumor in caucus locations, to potentially convince Carson voters that they were throwing their votes away and that they should support Cruz.
Cruz has apologized, stating that his people were just reporting what they saw on CNN. CNN denies that it ever reported that Carson was out.
It may blow over, but if it turns into an all out scorched earth grudge match between Cruz and Trump (who is claiming that the rumor gave Cruz Iowa), I've got my popcorn ready.
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"I like to eat crawfish and drink beer. That's despair?" ― Walker Percy
Posts: 3259 | From: Denver, Colorado, USA | Registered: May 2005
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Og, King of Bashan:
The Trump and Carson campaigns are now accusing the Cruz campaign of foul tactics in Iowa.
Foul tactics?!? From the party of swift boaters, birthers, smear campaigns targeted against adopted children???
I'm shocked! Shocked, I tell you.
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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Hedgehog
Ship's Shortstop
# 14125
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
quote:
Originally posted by Og, King of Bashan:
The Trump and Carson campaigns are now accusing the Cruz campaign of foul tactics in Iowa.
Foul tactics?!? From the party of swift boaters, birthers, smear campaigns targeted against adopted children???
I'm shocked! Shocked, I tell you.
It gets worse!! Trump is accusing Cruz of misrepresenting Trump's position on certain issues! That has surely never before happened in the history of politics! You just can't trust those Canadians!
Why is it that the biggest bullies are also the biggest cry-babies?
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"We must regain the conviction that we need one another, that we have a shared responsibility for others and the world, and that being good and decent are worth it."--Pope Francis, Laudato Si'
Posts: 2740 | From: Delaware, USA | Registered: Sep 2008
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
Donald Trump isn't just a loser, he's a bad loser.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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Og, King of Bashan
Ship's giant Amorite
# 9562
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Posted
Rand Paul and Rick Santorum are out. I hardly remembered that Santorum was in at any point.
(And before someone rehashes the same old Santorum joke, I heard that he was actually ending debate closing statements by urging people to google him, suggesting that he finally hired someone to fix that...)
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"I like to eat crawfish and drink beer. That's despair?" ― Walker Percy
Posts: 3259 | From: Denver, Colorado, USA | Registered: May 2005
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Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061
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Posted
I seem to remember that God told both these gentlemen (and also Mike Huckabee) to run. Guess that didn't include actually winning, eh?
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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page
Posts: 6378 | From: Washington DC | Registered: Mar 2014
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Dave W.
Shipmate
# 8765
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Og, King of Bashan:
At some point on Monday evening, a rumor emerged that Carson was flying home, and people wondered if he intended to suspend his campaign. An hour later, we were informed that Carson was, in fact, just flying home to get some clean laundry.
Well, that's just ... odd.
Posts: 2059 | From: the hub of the solar system | Registered: Nov 2004
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
I seem to remember that God told both these gentlemen (and also Mike Huckabee) to run. Guess that didn't include actually winning, eh?
God just wanted to laugh at them.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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romanlion
editorial comment
# 10325
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Posted
Well one thing is clear...
If old, white, and entrenched is what you are looking for, the dims are your party.
The GOP top 4 is comprised of two Hispanics, a black guy, and white guy.
Too bad they're all racists...
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"You can't get rich in politics unless you're a crook" - Harry S. Truman
Posts: 1486 | From: White Rose City | Registered: Sep 2005
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by romanlion:
Well one thing is clear...
If old, white, and entrenched is what you are looking for, the dims are your party.
The GOP top 4 is comprised of two Hispanics, a black guy, and white guy.
Too bad they're all racists...
This is as ugly as people calling people sexist if they dare criticize Hillary.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Og, King of Bashan:
Rand Paul and Rick Santorum are out. I hardly remembered that Santorum was in at any point.
(And before someone rehashes the same old Santorum joke, I heard that he was actually ending debate closing statements by urging people to google him, suggesting that he finally hired someone to fix that...)
I googled him, the wiki page "santorum neologism" is still on the first page of search results.
[ 04. February 2016, 05:01: Message edited by: Doublethink. ]
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
I don't think sex and ethnicity are completely irrelevant. Historically, politicians have been white and male, and women and minorities are still underrepresented. If I'd perceive two politicians as equally "good", I would choose one who is female and/or from a minority to try to offset this a bit.
So, to an extent romanlion has a point. The current Republican field is ethnically more diverse than the Democratic one. There's no denying that.
That doesn't take away that I perceive a rather nasty racist streak pervading the GOP, which extends to the presidential candidates.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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Og, King of Bashan
Ship's giant Amorite
# 9562
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.:
quote:
Originally posted by Og, King of Bashan:
At some point on Monday evening, a rumor emerged that Carson was flying home, and people wondered if he intended to suspend his campaign. An hour later, we were informed that Carson was, in fact, just flying home to get some clean laundry.
Well, that's just ... odd.
I don't know how big YOUR suitcase is...
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"I like to eat crawfish and drink beer. That's despair?" ― Walker Percy
Posts: 3259 | From: Denver, Colorado, USA | Registered: May 2005
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Firenze
Ordinary decent pagan
# 619
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Posted
He doesn't have a staffer who could nip to the laundramat? There are no retailers of gentlemens' apparel in the vicinity? Should either would be cheaper and less trouble than a flight?
[ 04. February 2016, 13:40: Message edited by: Firenze ]
Posts: 17302 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Jun 2001
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Crœsos
Shipmate
# 238
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by romanlion:
Well one thing is clear...
If old, white, and entrenched is what you are looking for, the dims are your party.
The GOP top 4 is comprised of two Hispanics, a black guy, and white guy.
Too bad they're all racists...
This is as ugly as people calling people sexist if they dare criticize Hillary.
RL has been very obsessed with the racial profiles of the current leading presidential contenders of the party that twice elected Barack Obama president. It is the "one thing" that is clear to him. Though for someone so fixated on this aspect of the presidential race (in both senses of the term) he seems remarkably incurious about other aspects of his obsession.
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Humani nil a me alienum puto
Posts: 10706 | From: Sardis, Lydia | Registered: May 2001
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Og, King of Bashan
Ship's giant Amorite
# 9562
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Posted
Maybe he left his lucky boxers at home?
Of course it was an odd explanation, and there were easier or less expensive solutions, which is why I was making light of the situation.
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"I like to eat crawfish and drink beer. That's despair?" ― Walker Percy
Posts: 3259 | From: Denver, Colorado, USA | Registered: May 2005
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Og, King of Bashan
Ship's giant Amorite
# 9562
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by romanlion:
Well one thing is clear...
If old, white, and entrenched is what you are looking for, the dims are your party.
The GOP top 4 is comprised of two Hispanics, a black guy, and white guy.
Too bad they're all racists...
This is as ugly as people calling people sexist if they dare criticize Hillary.
RL has been very obsessed with the racial profiles of the current leading presidential contenders of the party that twice elected Barack Obama president. It is the "one thing" that is clear to him. Though for someone so fixated on this aspect of the presidential race (in both senses of the term) he seems remarkably incurious about other aspects of his obsession.
Democrats should be upset about the racial make-up of our current presidential contenders. We can talk about judging the content of character all we want, but on election day, whose characters are you comparing? Usually a couple of white people, most likely white men. It's not that there aren't other qualified minorities or females out there. It's that you need a lot of things to break your way in order to even consider running for office, and those things (connections, internships and first jobs, opportunities to get graduate education, etc.) tend to break easier for white men. The fact that the party that nominated Obama twice doesn't have a minority candidate tells us that one election didn't fix the systematic problem.
I would suggest that Democrats who are concerned about racial equality and racial justice need to consider in any election which candidate will do more to solve the opportunity gap. And I would go as far as to say that, yes, race and gender will play a part in that consideration- all other things being equal, the female or minority candidate is going to know what broke their way to get into office, and will probably be more likely to build connections and offer internships and jobs to other women or minorities. It doesn't have to be the only thing you consider, but you should consider it.
It's not about wanting to feel good about voting for someone who doesn't share the race or gender of everyone else who has filled the office, or proving with your vote that you are not racist or sexist. And it's not enough to say "at least my candidate isn't saying openly racist things." We know the problem is there, and we need to do something to fix it.
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"I like to eat crawfish and drink beer. That's despair?" ― Walker Percy
Posts: 3259 | From: Denver, Colorado, USA | Registered: May 2005
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Og, King of Bashan:
.... I would suggest that Democrats who are concerned about racial equality and racial justice need to consider in any election which candidate will do more to solve the opportunity gap. And I would go as far as to say that, yes, race and gender will play a part in that consideration- all other things being equal, the female or minority candidate is going to know what broke their way to get into office, and will probably be more likely to build connections and offer internships and jobs to other women or minorities. It doesn't have to be the only thing you consider, but you should consider it. ....
Isn't a rather more important question 'which candidate looks potentially like the more competent supreme leader and head of state'?
I'd have thought that against that, all symbolic criteria are luxuries that fade into insignificance.
[ 04. February 2016, 16:54: Message edited by: Enoch ]
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
Enoch: Isn't a rather more important question 'which candidate looks potentially like the more competent supreme leader and head of state'?
That's a bit too simple. I'm sure that there are dozens of people somewhere in the Democratic party that are just as bright as Clinton, Sanders and O'Malley, that have good ideas … It is also about how much effort does the party put into signalling good people of different genders and backgrounds, how much space does it give them to move up …?
There is sufficient political distance between Clinton and Sanders that if I were to vote in a Democratic primary, I would choose Sanders. But if they were close together, I would probably vote for Clinton. Because having a female president could contribute to break some of the gender barriers that might still exist within the party, it might be an inspiration for more women to take up leadership positions … Those would be good things.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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Og, King of Bashan
Ship's giant Amorite
# 9562
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Posted
When the practical question all too often turns out to be "which of these two white male candidates looks potentially like the more competent supreme leader and head of state," we are failing the potentially competent supreme leaders and heads of state who didn't have the system fixed for them in a way that I do as a white man. We are still handing minorities a bad check.
There is systematic injustice in this country, we can do something about it, and I believe that part of being a competent head of state is recognizing that injustice and the potential to fix it.
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"I like to eat crawfish and drink beer. That's despair?" ― Walker Percy
Posts: 3259 | From: Denver, Colorado, USA | Registered: May 2005
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
I just listened to NPR's "Here and Now". Two women explained why they support Trump. ![[Eek!]](eek.gif)
IMHO, the interviewer did a good job--wasn't rude, and politely asked sensible questions. I'm not a Trump supporter, and I found some of the responses mind-blowing. ("He's a great thinker"???)
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
I just listened to NPR's "Here and Now". Two women explained why they support Trump.
IMHO, the interviewer did a good job--wasn't rude, and politely asked sensible questions. I'm not a Trump supporter, and I found some of the responses mind-blowing. ("He's a great thinker"???)
He thinks about as much as Godin's statue.
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
Your mistype is even more appropriate than getting it correct.
Trump thinks less than even an imaginary statue.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
I just listened to NPR's "Here and Now". Two women explained why they support Trump.
IMHO, the interviewer did a good job--wasn't rude, and politely asked sensible questions. I'm not a Trump supporter, and I found some of the responses mind-blowing. ("He's a great thinker"???)
I've yet to hear a coherent reason from Trump supporters.
The basic "reasoning" seems to be that he is not establishment. By that virtue, perhaps Ronald McDonald should run as well.
They have many of the same attributes. Big name recognition, self advertising, prioritise their benefit of your welfare, both are clowns...
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Og: Thread Killer
Ship's token CN Mennonite
# 3200
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
I just listened to NPR's "Here and Now". Two women explained why they support Trump.
IMHO, the interviewer did a good job--wasn't rude, and politely asked sensible questions. I'm not a Trump supporter, and I found some of the responses mind-blowing. ("He's a great thinker"???)
I've yet to hear a coherent reason from Trump supporters.
The basic "reasoning" seems to be that he is not establishment. ...
Coherency is not to be trusted.
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I wish I was seeking justice loving mercy and walking humbly but... "Cease to lament for that thou canst not help, And study help for that which thou lament'st."
Posts: 5025 | From: Toronto | Registered: Aug 2002
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simontoad
Ship's Amphibian
# 18096
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Posted
or snoop dog?
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Human
Posts: 1571 | From: Romsey, Vic, AU | Registered: May 2014
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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Og, King of Bashan:
The fact that the party that nominated Obama twice doesn't have a minority candidate tells us that one election didn't fix the systematic problem.
Things are getting better, at least on the Democratic side. If you look at the racial breakdown of the Democratic House members, the numbers aren't too far off the national average (I think the biggest discrepancy is the male:female ratio amongst white Dems - there aren't enough white women.)
The Senate is much worse, but you'd expect that, as Senators tend to be older, more experienced politicians. They're also elected state-wide, which probably makes a difference (I don't have the numbers to say whether the minority representatives come from majority-white districts as often as one would expect, but I'd guess not.)
You see the same story in State Governors. Of the five minority Governors, only one, David Ige, is a Democrat, and he's Governor of Hawaii, where he's not really a minority at all (Governor Ige is Japanese-American. Asian-Americans are the largest ethnic group in Hawaii.) Which all suggests to me that white Democrats have a problem electing non-white representatives.
Posts: 5026 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2013
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The Riv
Shipmate
# 3553
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Posted
I watched a few minutes of the Democratic Party debate last night and appreciated that both candidates worked to draw more distinctions. Both had buy lines that wore thin pretty quickly, though, and I moved on after about 20 minutes.
Still feel as if a vigorous hike on election day would be a better use of time than queuing to vote. To me, America is trending to the Left: not far or quickly enough for Liberals, too far and too quickly enough for Conservatives. Other than that, I really don't see what all the fuss is about.
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"I don't know whether I like it, but it's what I meant." Ralph Vaughan Williams
"Riv, you've done a much better job communicating your passion than your point. I have absolutely no idea what you are talking about." Tom Clune
Posts: 2749 | From: Too far South, USA. I really want to move. | Registered: Nov 2002
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Og, King of Bashan
Ship's giant Amorite
# 9562
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by simontoad:
or snoop dog?
Snoop started from nothing in a bad part of Long Beach and used his talents to make millions of dollars and escape the ghetto.
Trump inherited a real estate empire and used his talents to turn that into . . . a slightly less valuable real estate empire.
I fail to see the similarity.
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"I like to eat crawfish and drink beer. That's despair?" ― Walker Percy
Posts: 3259 | From: Denver, Colorado, USA | Registered: May 2005
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by The Riv:
Still feel as if a vigorous hike on election day would be a better use of time than queuing to vote.
I could never live with myself if I did that and Trumpster won.
I'll vote the best I can, take a silkwood shower if necessary, then go for the vigorous hike.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
The Riv,
Seriously WTF? If you draw a line between absolute left (anarchy) and absolute right (absolute dictatorship), it falls to the left of the center of American politics. Objectively, no spin.
American politics have been drifting rightward for a while. The patron saint of the Right, old Ronnie Raygun, couldn't get elected as a republican these days.
[ 05. February 2016, 15:54: Message edited by: lilBuddha ]
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
lilBuddha: absolute left (anarchy) [...] absolute right (absolute dictatorship)
![[Confused]](confused.gif)
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by The Riv:
To me, America is trending to the Left: not far or quickly enough for Liberals, too far and too quickly enough for Conservatives. Other than that, I really don't see what all the fuss is about.
I don't think America is further left of where it was when it elected Jimmy Carter 40 years ago.
The increasing polarization is a much bigger effect than a change in the political centre of mass.
Posts: 5026 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2013
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
quote:
lilBuddha: absolute left (anarchy) [...] absolute right (absolute dictatorship)
Absolute freedom and absolute control. Does this work better for you?
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
lilBuddha: Absolute freedom and absolute control. Does this work better for you?
'fraid not.
It is funny; this goes exactly opposite to the people on the Ship and elsewhere who say that the left is about bringing the government into everything.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
quote:
Originally posted by The Riv:
To me, America is trending to the Left: not far or quickly enough for Liberals, too far and too quickly enough for Conservatives. Other than that, I really don't see what all the fuss is about.
I don't think America is further left of where it was when it elected Jimmy Carter 40 years ago.
The increasing polarization is a much bigger effect than a change in the political centre of mass.
The conservative mainstream politicians are getting more conservative. The Democratic mainstream politicians are increasingly serving business which tends to the more conservative end of the spectrum in practical effect.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
quote:
lilBuddha: Absolute freedom and absolute control. Does this work better for you?
'fraid not.
It is funny; this goes exactly opposite to the people on the Ship and elsewhere who say that the left is about bringing the government into everything.
Not exactly. it is about control. The right wants to control everyone, the left wants everyone in control. In theory, anyway. In practice it is messy and overlapping. Anarchy is impractical, especially in anything larger than small, hunter-gather groups. So one needs a regulated form of egalitarianism, and this involves some form of government.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Og, King of Bashan:
quote:
Originally posted by simontoad:
or snoop dog?
Snoop started from nothing in a bad part of Long Beach and used his talents to make millions of dollars and escape the ghetto.
Trump inherited a real estate empire and used his talents to turn that into . . . a slightly less valuable real estate empire.
I fail to see the similarity.
Snoop actually has an active brain cell or five rolling around in his head, too. He's a pretty smart guy. Not ready for president, but if he ran for Senate, ( say) I'd vote for him.
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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The Riv
Shipmate
# 3553
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Posted
I said, "To me..." and you are, of course, entitled to your opinions. As a young man I was a very conservatively minded person, but I have changed. Moderating gradually, I now find myself a bit left of center, and I'm content with that. I see aspects of the same in American society and culture, and I'm content with that, too. I know that worldwide, U.S. Liberals are more or less = to other developed countries' Centrists. I'm not talking about that, though. I've simply quieted myself in these arenas, and am gladly easing into a post-political lifestyle. Certainly there's no harm there. The pandering (even if its contents are genuinely owned)/power/money triumvirate has made its indelible marks, and I'm sure I'm not alone in an understanding of life as being more worthwhile after leaving it all by the wayside.
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"I don't know whether I like it, but it's what I meant." Ralph Vaughan Williams
"Riv, you've done a much better job communicating your passion than your point. I have absolutely no idea what you are talking about." Tom Clune
Posts: 2749 | From: Too far South, USA. I really want to move. | Registered: Nov 2002
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
I do believe you when you say that the society of the US is moving to the left on a number of issues. The problem is that politics can sometimes move in another direction.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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simontoad
Ship's Amphibian
# 18096
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Og, King of Bashan:
quote:
Originally posted by simontoad:
or snoop dog?
Snoop started from nothing in a bad part of Long Beach and used his talents to make millions of dollars and escape the ghetto.
Trump inherited a real estate empire and used his talents to turn that into . . . a slightly less valuable real estate empire.
I fail to see the similarity.
![[Frown]](frown.gif) I was riffing off not being establishment...
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Human
Posts: 1571 | From: Romsey, Vic, AU | Registered: May 2014
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RuthW
liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13
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Posted
Snoop is now establishment, though, in his field.
He moved out of Long Beach to Claremont years ago. (Full disclosure: I live in Long Beach, I love Long Beach, and people who leave of their own free will are freaks.) He's a record company executive. He's performed at the Kennedy Center. He's been in an Old Navy commercial. He's collaborated with Katy Perry.
Posts: 24453 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
But I would say Trump is the ultimate establishment candidate. Yes, he doesn't take money from entrenched special-interest groups because he IS an entrenched special-interest group. All he has done is cut out the middle man and ensure that he is accountable to no one. That's not progress.
on the flip side, Sanders, as a lifelong politician, looks like an establishment candidate. And yet his funding all comes from small individual donations-- and not from his own personal reserve.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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stonespring
Shipmate
# 15530
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Posted
On the whole Bernie vs. Hillary question, I am not sure who would better as president for the success of progressive policy goals in the medium or long term. The Republicans are likely to hold onto the House of Representatives at least until the 2020 census and the redistricting that follows (and may continue to hold onto it unless massive Republican gains in state legislatures and governorships are reversed). This means that any Democratic president would be limited to continuing Obama's strategy since the 2010 midterms of using executive actions and the existing authorities of federal regulatory agencies to try to do as much as can be done in a progressive direction without actual legislation (added to, of course, the President's ability to influence the political future of the country through appointments, the most significant of which being those to the Supreme Court). Bernie would probably be more aggressive in this respect, but Hillary might be more pragmatic which could be more effective if the Republicans sue or hold up budgets and debt ceiling increases in order to stop or delay executive actions and federal government regulatory actions that they disapprove of.
Looking at the long-term, though, it is worth asking how a President Bernie or President Hillary constrained by Republican-controlled House would help or hinder Democratic successes in future elections and the success of progressive candidates in Democratic primaries. If Bernie energetically pursues his progressive agenda and largely is seen to fail, will that set the progressive wing of the Democratic party back decades and mar hopes of achieving single payer healthcare and other progressive goals should the Democrats ever control both the Presidency and Congress again? Or would Bernie's audacity to pursue his agenda even up against a Republican House energize a progressive Democratic voting bloc that, seeing victory in sight if they can reclaim Congress, manages to enact policies like Bernie's, even if it takes a new census, redistricting, and new elections (with likely a different Democratic president at that point) to see it done?
Posts: 1537 | Registered: Mar 2010
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simontoad
Ship's Amphibian
# 18096
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Posted
Well, as a foreigner, I'm more interested in the well-being of the United States than of the Democratic Party in the future. Let the Democratic Party of the future take care of itself.
I think you make some good points about Hilary's pragmatism and how it is more likely to produce effective Government. That and my perception of her electability as compared to Sanders would make me more likely to vote for her in the primaries had I that privilege.
That said, from a political point of view I prefer Sanders, and I worry that I don't know enough about him to make the judgement I made above.
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Human
Posts: 1571 | From: Romsey, Vic, AU | Registered: May 2014
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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
In practice it is messy and overlapping.
In practice, it seems that the right wants to control everyone, and the left wants to control everyone differently.
Nobody seems terribly interested in empowering individuals.
Posts: 5026 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2013
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by stonespring:
On the whole Bernie vs. Hillary question, I am not sure who would better as president for the success of progressive policy goals in the medium or long term.
Well, seeing as Hillary has no progressive policy goals, her chance of bringing any to fruition is nil. Bernie is a progressive, but may have a hard time getting Congress to play ball. Although if he manages to ride a progressive insurgency to power, that may not be so cut-and-dried. But if you want progressive policy goals, I think you're more likely to get them with a progressive president than a blue dog, all things considered.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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