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Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:


Now, the Democrats are determined to give Hillary Clinton her opportunity to run for president in a general election. Few people of any political persuasion are in love with her. I don't get it. Democrats should nominate Amy Klobuchar. She has all the same policy positions as Clinton and she's likeable.

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Originally posted by Augustine the Aleut:

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Originally posted by Porridge:

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Originally posted by Golden Key:
LeRoc--

Except the Republican party is pro business. If they stop to think about that, they might decide it's wiser not to support Carly. She was a large part of running HP into the ground and wrecking its much-vaunted culture.

As a woman, I was thrilled and proud when she got that job--doesn't happen often, here. Let's say I was not amused by her job performance.

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The Republicans are only pro certain businesses, though. They certainly support the Mitt Romney sorts of business, which create capital out of completing the destruction of possibly foundering businesses, but not necessarily the bread-and-butter mom-and-pop type businesses which comprise so much of the main Street not Wall Street sorts of enterprise that fuel much of the US economy.

So Carly may have as much of a shot as Mitt (who, I hear, is being begged to run again).

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I would tend to agree with you but, generally speaking, what is important is that the Republic party is believed to be pro-business. Whether or not it actually is may not be terribly relevant.

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Originally posted by Golden Key:
So unless they nominate her for wrecking a worker-friendly culture...which is not out of the question...

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Next month, Gov. Bobby Jindal is bringing a mass prayer event to LSU's campus sponsored by a conservative Christian group that has espoused controversial views on a number of issues, including the causes of Hurricane Katrina.

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Isn't this how Rick Perry kicked off his presidential bid in 2012, with a supposedly non-political prayer rally? Of all the Republican efforts in 2012 that seems like the the one future candidates should try to avoid emulating. It was poorly organized, the candidate was ill-prepared for public appearances, and . . . there was a third thing but I forget what it was.

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Humani nil a me alienum puto

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Originally posted by Doublethink.:
It mildly surprises me that America is comfortable with political dynasties.

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Originally posted by Prester John:

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Originally posted by Doublethink.:
It mildly surprises me that America is comfortable with political dynasties.

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Why? We've had them before. John Adams and John Quincy Adams. Teddy Roosevelt and Franklin Roosevelt.

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Originally posted by Porridge:
We could have added the Kennedys if only they didn't keep getting assassinated.

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Originally posted by Doublethink.:
It mildly surprises me that America is comfortable with political dynasties.

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Originally posted by seekingsister:
The only reasons the Republicans are doing well in Congress is

A) gerrymandering of districts in the House
B) standard shift away from party of the incumbent president in the Senate

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Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
Presidents having to show Christian credentials? Meh. What you have to do is show alleged MORAL credentials. Which is why a Mormon made it as far as he did in the last race, and why Jimmy Carter got bagged on all the time for actually believing all that stuff and letting it affect his actions. (Mustn't go that far, of course!) Basically what you must have is church membership in a mainstream denomination, the duller the better (we're not looking for much more than that as an electorate, and we'll get squeamish about active activity such as teaching or preaching, or even membership in some of the denominations with a more "active" reputation.) and an ability to make broad sweeping statements that can't offend anybody (for example, Muslims/Jews/extreme patriots/other Christian groups, which means avoiding a lot of potholes, most notably all but the most glancing of references to Jesus). So no praying in Jesus' name or mentions of Christian doctrine where anybody can hear you, which includes your private life (which won't be private, of course). But you can quote him as a great human teacher all you want, and it will add to your moral cred (don't ever come out and say that, but do act from that perspective and you'll be all right).

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This came up as a tangent in another thread and rather than getting off on an unrelated tangent I thought I'd analyze it here. So what are the religious affiliations of the current field of candidates? How many of them belong to a "mainstream denomination"? Let's see!

Republicans
There are so many Republican contenders (declared, soon to be declared, and still "exploring") you could almost do a statistical analysis of their religious beliefs. So how do they shake out?

Declared Candidates (listed in chronological order of declaration of candidacy)

Rafael Edward “Ted” Cruz – Not just a Southern Baptist, but his father is a pastor. The Southern Baptists are not a "mainstream denomination", not least because they reject being called a "denomination" of any sort.

Randal “Rand” Paul – Born into the Presbyterian faith and still allegedly an adherent. Some would say his true gods are libertarianism and capitalism, but he is officially a member of a "mainstream denomination".

Marco Rubio – Rubio is the most interesting case of all the announced candidates. He was born into Roman Catholicism, spent time as a Mormon, then attended a Protestant megachurch before returning to Catholicism. He identifies as Catholic but also still attends that Protestant megachurch. One blogger described it as "Sunday mornings with the Virgin Mary, Saturday nights with Fun Jesus!" Neither one of these qualifies as a "mainstream denomination", a term which in an American context typically means "Mainline Protestant". Besides, whatever other criticisms can be leveled at the Catholic Church, "squeamish[ness] about . . . teaching or preaching" isn't one of their faults.

Benjamin “Ben” Carson – A Seventh Day Adventist, definitely not considered a "mainstream denomination".

Cara “Carly” Fiorina – Raised as an Episcopalian but currently "an irregular churchgoer who is not affiliated with a particular denomination". I'm not sure birthright membership really counts as "church membership in a mainstream denomination".

Michael “Mike” Huckabee – Not just a Southern Baptist but a Southern Baptist minister. Still not a "mainstream denomination". (See entry for Ted Cruz above.)

George Pataki – A lifelong Roman Catholic. Despite much more widespread social acceptance of the faith in the U.S. since it was a stumbling block for JFK, it doesn't fall into the usual parameters of a "mainstream denomination" for either American political purposes or LC's description of the term. (See entry for Marco Rubio above.)

Richard “Rick” Santorum – Not just a Roman Catholic, but a Catholic so secure in his faith he feels comfortable lecturing the Pope on the contents of upcoming encyclicals. (Ironically the Pope being lectured by Santorum to "leav[e] science to the scientists" has a master's degree in chemistry and is thus a scientist himself, something that cannot be said of Santorum.) Like Marco Rubio and George Pataki, not a member of a "mainstream denomination". In fact, given his advocacy of re-criminalizing homosexuality, Santorum is arguably outside mainstream Catholicism (by U.S. standards) as well.

Lindsey Graham – A Southern Baptist, which means he's not a member of a "denomination" (see note on Ted Cruz and Mike Huckabee above), let along a "mainstream" one.

Scheduled Announcements (have scheduled events to announce candidacy)

James Richard “Rick” Perry – Grew up in the United Methodist Church (the mainstreamiest of American "mainstream denominations") but suddenly switched to a non-denominational megachurch not long before his last attempt at the Republican Presidential nomination. Pretty much by definition you can't be a member of a "mainstream denomination" if you go to a non-denominational church.

Donald Trump – Born into the Presbyterian faith and claims to still be an adherent. This does qualify as a "mainstream denomination".

Exploratory Committees (have an exploratory committee but no announcement date scheduled yet)

John Ellis “Jeb” Bush – Surely this scion of old money New England belongs to some crusty "mainstream denomination", right? Nope. Although raised as an Episcopalian (a very "mainstream denomination"), Jeb Bush converted to Roman Catholicism in 1995. (See entries on Rubio, Pataki, and Santorum as to why this isn't a "mainstream denomination" as the term is being used here.)

Christopher “Chris” Christie – A member of the Roman Catholic faith. (See entries on Rubio, Pataki, Santorum, and Bush as to why this isn't a "mainstream denomination" as the term is being used here.)

Piyush “Bobby” Jindal – Another Roman Catholic. (See entries on Rubio, Pataki, Santorum, Bush, and Christie as to why this isn't a "mainstream denomination" as the term is being used here.)

John Kasich = Interestingly identifies as "Anglican". Most Americans in communion with the Anglican Church identify as "Episcopalian", but either way I think he still gets credit as belonging to a "mainstream denomination".

Scott Walker – Currently a member of a non-denominational evangelical church. As noted under Rick Perry, you can't belong to a "mainstream denomination" if you go to a non-denominational church.

Democrats
A much smaller field here.

Declared Candidates

Hillary Clinton – A member of the United Methodist Church. As noted above (see Rick Perry) this is usually considered a very "mainstream denomination" in the U.S.

Bernard “Bernie” Sanders – Although not particularly observant, Bernie Sanders is Jewish. Though this is likely to help him avoid LC's mentioned pitfalls of "praying in Jesus' name" or "mentions of Christian doctrine where anybody can hear you", he's still not a member of a "mainstream denomination".

Martin O’Malley – A Roman Catholic. (See entries on Rubio, Pataki, Santorum, Bush, Christie, and Jindal.) It's interesting that half a century after JFK's Catholicism was considered an impediment the most numerously represented faith in the 2016 presidential primaries is Catholicism.

Scheduled Announcement

Lincoln Chafee – A member of the Episcopal Church, a "mainstream denomination".

Exploratory Committee

James “Jim” Webb – I can't find much about Webb's religious beliefs other than that he's identified as a follower of "non-denominational Christianity" on his Wikipedia entry. Once again, if you're non-denominational you can't belong to a "mainstream denomination".

So, if we abide by LC's rule of thumb, if the Republicans want to win the White House in 2016 they should nominate Rand Paul, Donald Trump, or John Kasich. Everyone else is just wasting their time and their donor's money because they don't belong to a "mainstream denomination". The Democrats, on the other hand, could choose either Hillary Clinton or Lincoln Chafee and still have a shot at the presidency.

There. That clears out and simplifies what was becoming a very cluttered field.

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Humani nil a me alienum puto

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Originally posted by Prester John:

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Originally posted by Doublethink.:
It mildly surprises me that America is comfortable with political dynasties.

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Why? We've had them before. John Adams and John Quincy Adams. Teddy Roosevelt and Franklin Roosevelt.

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Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
The election is not for more than a year!

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But it's only two months until the Iowa State Fair, where candidates will be evaluated on whether or not they can eat a corn dog in a dignified manner. I truly cannot think of a better way to evaluate leadership ability.

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Humani nil a me alienum puto

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Originally posted by Crœsos:
n,This came up as a tangent in another thread and rather than getting off on an unrelated tangent I thought I'd analyze it here. So what are the religious affiliations of the current field of candidates? How many of them belong to a "mainstream denomination"? Let's see!

. . . Rafael Edward “Ted” Cruz – Not just a Southern Baptist, but his father is a pastor. The Southern Baptists are not a "mainstream denomination", not least because they reject being called a "denomination" of any sort.

. . .

Lindsey Graham – A Southern Baptist, which means he's not a member of a "denomination" (see note on Ted Cruz and Mike Huckabee above), let along a "mainstream" one.

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Originally posted by Nick Tamen:
But in any event, I understood Lamb Chopped to be using "denomination" generally to mean "religious group," rather than in a more strict sense. So I understood "members of mainstream denominations" to include Sourhern Baptists, Roman Catholics and Jews.

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Originally posted by Crœsos:

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Originally posted by Nick Tamen:
But in any event, I understood Lamb Chopped to be using "denomination" generally to mean "religious group," rather than in a more strict sense. So I understood "members of mainstream denominations" to include Sourhern Baptists, Roman Catholics and Jews.

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But when I noted Southern Baptist Ted Cruz's use of the equally Southern Baptist Liberty University as the place to announce his candidacy she explicitly rejected the idea that Liberty U. was associated with what she'd termed "mainstream denomination[s]".

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Originally posted by Nick Tamen:

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Originally posted by Crœsos:
n,This came up as a tangent in another thread and rather than getting off on an unrelated tangent I thought I'd analyze it here. So what are the religious affiliations of the current field of candidates? How many of them belong to a "mainstream denomination"? Let's see!

. . . Rafael Edward “Ted” Cruz – Not just a Southern Baptist, but his father is a pastor. The Southern Baptists are not a "mainstream denomination", not least because they reject being called a "denomination" of any sort.

. . .

Lindsey Graham – A Southern Baptist, which means he's not a member of a "denomination" (see note on Ted Cruz and Mike Huckabee above), let along a "mainstream" one.

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Your Wikipedia link is to "Mainline Protestant." "Mainline" is not the same as "mainstream," either in meaning or etymology. A religious group can be mainstream without being Mainline, and an argument could be made that some of the Mainline groups are decreasingly mainstream. Where I live, Southern Baptists are the mainstream religious group, and as they're the largest Protestant group in the country, I don't see how they cannot be considered mainstream by any definition.

As for "denomination," I know plenty of Southern Baptists who have no problem at all with the Southern Baptist Convention being called a denomination. But in any event, I understood Lamb Chopped to be using "denomination" generally to mean "religious group," rather than in a more strict sense. So I understood "members of mainstream denominations" to include Sourhern Baptists, Roman Catholics and Jews.

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Originally posted by Nick Tamen:
Your Wikipedia link is to "Mainline Protestant." "Mainline" is not the same as "mainstream," either in meaning or etymology. A religious group can be mainstream without being Mainline, and an argument could be made that some of the Mainline groups are decreasingly mainstream. Where I live, Southern Baptists are the mainstream religious group, and as they're the largest Protestant group in the country, I don't see how they cannot be considered mainstream by any definition.

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• dull (optional)
• not engaged in active activity such as teaching or preaching
• don't have an "active" reputation
• make broad, sweeping, yet inoffensive statements
• never make any but the most glancing references to Jesus
• never pray in Jesus' name
• never mention Christian doctrine where anybody can hear
• only quote Jesus as a "great human teacher"

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Originally posted by Nick Tamen:
So I understood "members of mainstream denominations" to include Sourhern Baptists, Roman Catholics and Jews.

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Originally posted by Crœsos:
Well, let's look at what LC defines as the characteristics of a "mainstream denomination" in the context of U.S. Presidential politics. They are:

• dull (optional)
• not engaged in active activity such as teaching or preaching
• don't have an "active" reputation
• make broad, sweeping, yet inoffensive statements
• never make any but the most glancing references to Jesus
• never pray in Jesus' name
• never mention Christian doctrine where anybody can hear
• only quote Jesus as a "great human teacher"

These characteristics don't make me think of Southern Baptists generally or any of the various presidential candidates claiming to be Southern Baptists specifically. They do sound s lot like the standard criticisms white American evangelicals have been leveling against mainline Protestant churches for the past several decades, ever since they decided that "evangelical" and "mainline Protestant" were mutually exclusive categories. You can see why the equivalence was noted.

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Originally posted by Nick Tamen:
All, or almost all, of the characertistics you've listed were given as characteristics of the candidate, not of any denominations—as in we get antsy about candidates who engage in activities such as preaching or teaching or who pray openly in Jesus' name.

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Originally posted by Crœsos:

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Originally posted by Nick Tamen:
All, or almost all, of the characertistics you've listed were given as characteristics of the candidate, not of any denominations—as in we get antsy about candidates who engage in activities such as preaching or teaching or who pray openly in Jesus' name.

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With the possible exception of Carly Fiorina, I'm not sure this distinction makes any real difference to the candidate analysis.

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Well, let's look at what LC defines as the characteristics of a "mainstream denomination" in the context of U.S. Presidential politics.

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Originally posted by Enoch:
This is very odd. How can any phrase used to mean 'normal' non-whacky, trinitarian denominations not include the RCC and the Southern Baptists? True, it's not my country, but aren't both those ecclesial communities quite large in the USA?.

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Originally posted by Enoch:
This is very odd. How can any phrase used to mean 'normal' non-whacky, trinitarian denominations not include the RCC and the Southern Baptists? True, it's not my country, but aren't both those ecclesial communities quite large in the USA?

Also, if the whole of the US Episcopalian Church meets Crœsos's blandness tick-list, I'm not sure that the CofE would be in communion with it. I doubt either, that the CofS would want to have links with a Presbyterian church if it really met the Crœsos test.

There are plenty of people in the CofE who would pass the Crœsos test, but we don't all.

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Originally posted by Enoch:
Also, if the whole of the US Episcopalian Church meets Crœsos's blandness tick-list, I'm not sure that the CofE would be in communion with it.

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Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
Republican Ticket: Rubio/Kasich

You saw it here first!

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Originally posted by irish_lord99:

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Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
Republican Ticket: Rubio/Kasich

You saw it here first!

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How do you figure that?

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Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
Voldemort is polling better.

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Originally posted by irish_lord99:

Also, if Republicans do manage to shaft Obamacare recipients via the upcoming supreme court decision, then look for the more moderate GOP candidates to surge in popularity, especially in red states where the court decision is going to be felt most.

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Originally posted by Mere Nick:
Every GOP candidate has a longer track record than did Obama at the time he ran.

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Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
Here is the thing. The potential Supreme Court ruling only affects 6 million people in the 37 red states. 6 million seems like a large number but it is stretched out over 37 states. How many of those 6 million people were ever going to vote Republican in the first place? Of the ones who were going to vote Republican, how many of them only purchased insurance to avoid the fines? Of those who were potential Republican voters who like Obamacare, how many of them are voting strictly on that issue? How many of them will vote in the primary? The backlash against candidates who oppose Obamacare in the Republican primary will be negligible. What there is will be more than offset by Republican voters delighted with Supreme Court decision.

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Originally posted by Crœsos:

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Originally posted by Mere Nick:
Every GOP candidate has a longer track record than did Obama at the time he ran.

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Not true. By my estimate Obama had a longer track record (time spent in elected office at a state or federal level) than Ted Cruz, Rand Paul, Ben Carson, Carly Fiorina, Jeb Bush, Donald Trump, and Bobby Jindal. That's seven of the thirteen Republican candidates who have either officially announced their candidacy or scheduled announcements.

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