Posted                      

quote:

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Originally posted by irish_lord99:
Republican voters have already been influenced against Pope Francis for some time now. Fox news criticisms him every chance they get, and talk radio absolutely despises him.

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Two more points for Pope Francis!


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"...that is generally a matter for Pigwidgeon, several other consenting adults, a bottle of cheap Gin and the odd giraffe."
~Tortuf

Posted                    

quote:

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Originally posted by RuthW:

quote:

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Originally posted by simontoad:

quote:

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Originally posted by Doublethink.:
So the pope has described Trumps views on immigration as unchristian - do we think this will help or hinder him ?

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Well, Trump had better be careful or he may lose the Latino vote.

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The ones he didn't already lose when he said Mexicans coming to the US are rapists and that he's going to build a big wall between the US and Mexico and get Mexico to pay for it?

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sorry, my grin was for this


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Human

Posted                    

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Originally posted by RuthW:
The ones he didn't already lose when he said Mexicans coming to the US are rapists and that he's going to build a big wall between the US and Mexico and get Mexico to pay for it?

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Posted                   

quote:

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Originally posted by Enoch:

quote:

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Originally posted by RuthW:
The ones he didn't already lose when he said Mexicans coming to the US are rapists and that he's going to build a big wall between the US and Mexico and get Mexico to pay for it?

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But presumably they don't have votes.

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Posted                   

quote:

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Originally posted by RuthW:
Jeb! is bowing out. I wonder if/when/who he will endorse.

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Posted                   

• Trump 67
• Cruz 11
• Rubio 10
• Kasich 5
  
• Bush 4
• Carson 3
  
• Fiorina 1
• Paul 1
• Huckabee 1

• Clinton 51 (+431)
• Sanders 51 (+16)
• Unassigned 1
  
• O'Malley 0 (+2)

Posted                   

quote:

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Originally posted by RuthW:
Trump trounced his opponents in Nevada yesterday:

Trump -- 45.9
Rubio -- 23.9
Cruz -- 21.4

He said months ago he would run the table, and it's starting to look like he was right.

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quote:

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Originally posted by RuthW:
The Koch brothers' best political operative has recently gone to work for Rubio's campaign (or his super-pac, I can't remember which, and it's not like it matters!). A quick look at the major papers didn't yield up much else in the way of reporting about what's going on with establishment Republican donors and operatives; if someone here sees something along those lines, I'd be grateful for a link. I would love to be a fly on the wall in one of the meetings they're no doubt holding today.

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Posted                    

quote:

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Originally posted by Boogie:
Yes, the politics of fear.

I see Trump"s fear - it's the fear of the rich. They all build more and more walls and live in self-contained bubbles fearful to protect all their stuff and their lifestyles.

But the voters, why on Earth are they taken in?

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Posted                    

quote:

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Originally posted by deano:

quote:

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Originally posted by Boogie:
Yes, the politics of fear.

I see Trump"s fear - it's the fear of the rich. They all build more and more walls and live in self-contained bubbles fearful to protect all their stuff and their lifestyles.

But the voters, why on Earth are they taken in?

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Oh dear. It must be terrible for people like you who can't understand folks who disagree with your politics: "Oh why can't people see that people like me know best?"

Can you see the arrogance behind your argument?

Perhaps, and this is only a suggestion you understand, the voters WANT what they are seeing. Perhaps they are NOT being taken in but actually are voting in the full knowledge of what they are voting for.

I admit that might be a bit of a stretch for committed socialists who have a habit of believing they really do know what is best for people.

Maybe you need to consider the nightmare position, not that Trump is elected, but that people don't actually want your style of politics. Perhaps it is socialism that is wrong, not the voters.

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Posted                    

quote:

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Originally posted by Pomona:

quote:

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Originally posted by deano:

quote:

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Originally posted by Boogie:
Yes, the politics of fear.

I see Trump"s fear - it's the fear of the rich. They all build more and more walls and live in self-contained bubbles fearful to protect all their stuff and their lifestyles.

But the voters, why on Earth are they taken in?

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Oh dear. It must be terrible for people like you who can't understand folks who disagree with your politics: "Oh why can't people see that people like me know best?"

Can you see the arrogance behind your argument?

Perhaps, and this is only a suggestion you understand, the voters WANT what they are seeing. Perhaps they are NOT being taken in but actually are voting in the full knowledge of what they are voting for.

I admit that might be a bit of a stretch for committed socialists who have a habit of believing they really do know what is best for people.

Maybe you need to consider the nightmare position, not that Trump is elected, but that people don't actually want your style of politics. Perhaps it is socialism that is wrong, not the voters.

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Because there is nothing in-between Trump and socialism. Obama is not a socialist and I'm quite happy with him, and I'd even be happy with a moderate Republican. Trump is just a fascist.

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Posted                   

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I don't know much about Trump's economic policies actually, but I doubt if he has this in mind. He is certainly a demagogue.

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Posted                    

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Originally posted by LeRoc:
I have no objection to questions of the form "why do people vote for candidate / party X?"

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Posted                   

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Originally posted by deano:

It was a polemical, ideological cry of indignation that people are actually voting for Trump in the first place.

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quote:

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Originally posted by deano:

... and that obviously it was because they are not bright enough to see through his lies.

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Posted                    

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Originally posted by Boogie:
But all prejudice has its roots in fear. I spend a few weeks every couple of years on one of the poorest communities in Mexico, working on a project with the locals there. I can't even begin to unravel his unbelievable hatred for them.

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Posted                    

quote:

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Originally posted by Boogie:
I did not say this. Fear has nothing to do with intellect. I am sure very bright people are voting for him.

But all prejudice has its roots in fear. I spend a few weeks every couple of years on one of the poorest communities in Mexico, working on a project with the locals there. I can't even begin to unravel his unbelievable hatred for them.

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Posted                   

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Originally posted by deano:
I'm sure some here will put that down to racism, but I think it is more subtle. I think it is a rejection against the "other" culture.

<snip>

With few exceptions people tend to feel more comfortable within a culture with which they identify as being part of. I don't accept that skin colour is relevant to that.

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I think you underestimate the degree to which Americans tie "culture" to "skin color", and overestimated the degree to which racism has been eliminated in America.

To take one example, a poll of likely voters in the recent South Carolina Republican Primary asked "In general do you think that whites are a superior race, or not?" Ten percent of likely Republican primary voters were willing to admit to a pollster that they believed in white superiority, and another eleven percent claimed to not be sure. Trump supporters were an outlier at 16% support for white superiority and 14% uncertainty, making them the group where this belief was most prevalent (and the only group above the average support of 10% for this proposition).

My own curiosity is piqued by the 1% of South Carolina Ben Carson supporters who nonetheless held that whites were the superior race.

It should be noted that South Carolina's Republican primary electorate was 96% non-Hispanic white in 2016, while the state of South Carolina itself is 64% non-Hispanic white according to the Census Bureau's 2014 estimate.

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Humani nil a me alienum puto

Posted                   

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Originally posted by The Riv:
It seems as if Rubio has "called out" Trump just in time for tonight's Republican *cough* debate *cough*.

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Posted                      

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I suspect that a white, Christian, non-racist, middle-class family from Texas could quite happily spend a week living with a black, non-racist, Christian, middle-class family in Maine and they would get on comfortably. The cultures are so similar that the skin colour wouldn't matter.

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re Maine and Texas cultures being that similar, if at all.

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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")

Posted                    

quote:

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Originally posted by Golden Key:
deano said:

quote:

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I suspect that a white, Christian, non-racist, middle-class family from Texas could quite happily spend a week living with a black, non-racist, Christian, middle-class family in Maine and they would get on comfortably. The cultures are so similar that the skin colour wouldn't matter.

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re Maine and Texas cultures being that similar, if at all.

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Posted                   

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Originally posted by deano:
Excellent response. Explains Trump's success so eloquently and succinctly.

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Posted                    

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Originally posted by lilBuddha:

quote:

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Originally posted by deano:
Excellent response. Explains Trump's success so eloquently and succinctly.

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Yeah! Not like your reasoned response to Crœsos. Oh wait.
There is a fear and a frustration shared across boundaries, this much you got right. But limiting the cause to moderate politicians is insane to the point being concerned for the competence of anyone who truly believed it. If a finger could be pointed in a single direction, it would be at conservative politicians, as both the financial and security fears are a more direct result of their policies. The honest assessment is that politicians of all stripes share in the fucked-up system that causes much of the frustration.
As Trump plays to these insecurities without offering any real path beyond them, it is right and proper to be derisive of those who support him.
They are akin to people tired of being in a leaky, sail torn boat grabbing on to a lead weight simply because it is different.

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Posted                   

quote:

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Originally posted by deano:
My analysis was taken from Robert O. Paxton's "An Anatomy of Fascism". Sorry to pop that bubble.

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quote:

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Paxton debunks the consoling fiction that Mussolini and Hitler seized power. Rather, conservative elites desperate to subdue leftist populist movements ''normalized'' the fascists by inviting them to share power. It was the mob that flocked to fascism, but the elites who elevated it.

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quote:

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Have another go.

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Posted                    

quote:

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Originally posted by lilBuddha:

quote:

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Originally posted by deano:
My analysis was taken from Robert O. Paxton's "An Anatomy of Fascism". Sorry to pop that bubble.

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I haven't read that book, so I looked it up. From a review

quote:

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Paxton debunks the consoling fiction that Mussolini and Hitler seized power. Rather, conservative elites desperate to subdue leftist populist movements ''normalized'' the fascists by inviting them to share power. It was the mob that flocked to fascism, but the elites who elevated it.

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So perhaps you should

quote:

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Have another go.

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at reading it.

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Posted                   

quote:

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Originally posted by W Hyatt:

quote:

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Originally posted by Boogie:
But all prejudice has its roots in fear. I spend a few weeks every couple of years on one of the poorest communities in Mexico, working on a project with the locals there. I can't even begin to unravel his unbelievable hatred for them.

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I gather that they must have neglected to mention that they want to come to the U.S. and take our jobs.

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Posted                   

quote:

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Originally posted by deano:
I'm sure some here will put that down to racism, but I think it is more subtle. I think it is a rejection against the "other" culture.

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quote:

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Originally posted by deano:
But it gets worse...

“In Germany after 1930 only the communists, along with the Nazis, were increasing their vote.35 Like the Nazis, the German communists thrived on unemployment and a widespread perception that the traditional parties and constitutional system had failed”

Excerpt From: Paxton, Robert O. “The Anatomy of Fascism.” Random House, 2005-01-02T00:00:00+00:00. iBooks.
This material may be protected by copyright.

And for those who think that Trump doesn't know how to govern because he isn't a professional politician....

“A central ingredient in the conservatives’ calculation was that the Austrian corporal and the greenhorn Italian ex-socialist rabble-rouser would not have the faintest idea what to do with high office. They would be incapable of governing without the cultivated and experienced conservative leaders’ savoir faire.”

Excerpt From: Paxton, Robert O. “The Anatomy of Fascism.” Random House, 2005-01-02T00:00:00+00:00. iBooks.
This material may be protected by copyright.

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Posted                   

quote:

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Originally posted by deano:

"“An essential step in the fascist march to acceptance and power was to persuade law-and-order conservatives and members of the middle class to tolerate fascist violence as a harsh necessity in the face of Left provocation.

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quote:

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Originally posted by deano:

“A central ingredient in the conservatives’ calculation

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Posted                    

quote:

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Originally posted by deano:
Here you go...

“One reason why the Nazis succeeded in supplanting the liberal middle-class parties was the liberals’ perceived failure to deal with the twin crises Germany faced in the late 1920s. One crisis was many Germans’ sense of national humiliation by the Treaty of Versailles”

Excerpt From: Paxton, Robert O. “The Anatomy of Fascism.” Random House, 2005-01-02T00:00:00+00:00. iBooks.
This material may be protected by copyright.

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