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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Purgatory: U.S. Presidential Election 2016
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Nick Tamen
Ship's Wayfaring Fool
# 15164
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Posted
And at Urban Dictionary.
(Not sure what happened there.)
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The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. — Anne Lamott
Posts: 2833 | From: On heaven-crammed earth | Registered: Sep 2009
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saysay
Ship's Praying Mantis
# 6645
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
quote:
saysay: Colleges are generally included as part of the 'Cathedral'.
So by the 'Cathedral' you mean a generalised group of colleges who aren't representative of the left (except that they are), but who are prohibiting free speech? You're getting a bit twisted here.
Not in the slightest. Colleges are included in the Cathedral, they are not the Cathedral. The Cathedral is a term used primarily in alt-right and NRX circles. Google 'cathedral moldbug' if you're really interested (warning: it may make your eyes bleed).
I honestly don't care whether or not you believe that the regressive left is a real thing in the US that more and more people have been complaining about and getting extremely angry about. Frankly I don't understand why so many of the participants on a thread about an American election aren't American and why y'all seem so convinced that you know our culture better than we do. I don't understand why your reaction to everything in this thread isn't just to shrug. If the regressive left isn't a problem in the UK/Africa/Brazil then I'm happy for you.
Honestly, I hope that I'm wrong about how large a problem the regressive left is. I hope my perception is completely skewed by the fact that I spent so much time fighting the suspension of a student who drew a swastika in order to start a discussion of its Hindu origins and threw the campus into an overwrought frenzy of tears and hate crime accusations. Trump's popularity suggests that I'm not.
But by denying that there's any possibility that the regressive left could be causing problems in the US that others on the left need to call out, you're making it seem like the problem is indeed with the entire left. You can't address a problem if you deny its existence.
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"It's been a long day without you, my friend
I'll tell you all about it when I see you again"
"'Oh sweet baby purple Jesus' - that's a direct quote from a 9 year old - shoutout to purple Jesus."
Posts: 2943 | From: The Wire | Registered: May 2004
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by saysay:
I honestly don't care whether or not you believe that the regressive left is a real thing in the US that more and more people have been complaining about and getting extremely angry about. Frankly I don't understand why so many of the participants on a thread about an American election aren't American and why y'all seem so convinced that you know our culture better than we do.
Well, I'm an American-- and there are a few others here. And so far the comments on this thread re the election seem pretty astute- insightful even-- and representative of what I hear in my conservative evangelical circles. I don't resonate with your comments, and they don't represent the Americans in my particular circle. so... ymmmv. There are obviously regional and cultural differences within the US, but there's also experience. I suspect you are right that your particular experience is skewing your study, although the same may be true with me as well, or with all of us.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
quote:
saysay: There are few people in the US who would seriously argue that most of the colleges in the US aren't primarily controlled and staffed by members of the left.
I'm getting more and more interested in debating tricks, but I admit that I have very little vocabulary about it. I'm wondering if the trick saysay is using here has a name.
She links to an article where a couple of students got upset about "Trump 2016" being chalked all over the campus and the reaction of the Administrator to this. She put this as "How the left is helping fuel the insanity", thereby framing it as if the reaction of these students and this Administrator is representative of 'the left'. I'm not sure if 'framing' is the most correct term here though, or whether there is another one which is more specific.
When simontoad calls her out on this, she reacts with "surely most colleges are staffed by the left?"
At the very least, there is a logical error here. Even if it were true that "all colleges are staffed by the left" (another instance of framing, but I'm willing to give her a pass here), this doesn't mean that a particular college is representative of the left.
But I'm looking for a term for this debating trick. My first instinct says 'moving the goalposts', but that doesn't seem to be specific enough either.
I would call it correlation error.
There is an established correlation between progressive politics and higher education. And so, since most people who work in colleges have graduate degrees, college staff and faculty tend to be more liberal/ progressive than the population as a whole. But correlation is not causation. And if it is causation in this instance-- why? Saysay and others on the right want to suggest it is a form of elitism-- a way of slamming the door of access to the middle class behind you and looking down on the "ignorant." Others, though, would say it might suggest that there is something analytically superior to progressive politics-- so that the more educated you become the more likely you are to see the wisdom of our ways.
The reality is, of course, that there are a 1000 different possibilities to explain the correlation, some of which don't even involve causation.
The real kicker, of course, is the subtle conspiracy-level implication that colleges are not just full of people who happen to favor more progressive politics, but rather are an organized quasi-official institution of The Left. ![[Ultra confused]](graemlins/confused2.gif)
And no, I don't think most Americans believe that-- or we wouldn't have so many conservative working-class Americans working their butts off to get their first-gen kids into college. But there is a certain group among The Right who are enamored with these sorts of conspiracy theories.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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saysay
Ship's Praying Mantis
# 6645
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Posted
I don't have a particular problem with the fact that so many non-Americans are commenting on the election. Particularly given our habit of dragging other countries into endless wars, I get why they feel like they have a stake in it.
I also don't have a problem admitting that I'm commenting from a particular perspective influenced by both the media and actual people I've encountered and talked to. Everyone is, that's to be expected. I move in so many minority circles that I know mine may in fact be an extremely minority perspective that doesn't warrant enough of a problem to be addressed. I'm a freak, I know that, that's fine.
I just wish people would stop telling me to stop believing my lying eyes and ears. The way out of our godawful postmodern morass involves including as many perspectives as possible, not continuing the dominance game.
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdwellar:Saysay and others on the right want to suggest it is a form of elitism-- a way of slamming the door of access to the middle class behind you and looking down on the "ignorant."
I'M NOT ON THE RIGHT.
Do not tell me what I want or there will be a hellcall.
There are nasty elitists on both the left and the right. Denying that is delusional.
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"It's been a long day without you, my friend
I'll tell you all about it when I see you again"
"'Oh sweet baby purple Jesus' - that's a direct quote from a 9 year old - shoutout to purple Jesus."
Posts: 2943 | From: The Wire | Registered: May 2004
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by saysay:
I just wish people would stop telling me to stop believing my lying eyes and ears. The way out of our godawful postmodern morass involves including as many perspectives as possible, not continuing the dominance game.
Who is telling you this-- and in what context???
quote:
Originally posted by saysay:
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdwellar:Saysay and others on the right want to suggest it is a form of elitism-- a way of slamming the door of access to the middle class behind you and looking down on the "ignorant."
I'M NOT ON THE RIGHT.
Do not tell me what I want or there will be a hellcall.
There are nasty elitists on both the left and the right. Denying that is delusional.
Sorry-- ambiguous grammar on my part. Yes, you'd already staked out your place on the left, even though you rarely argue from that pov.
What I meant that was unclear from the sentence structure is "Saysay might want to suggest this. And others-- on the right-- suggest this..."
Sorry for the implication.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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RuthW
liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13
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Posted
What is "the regressive left"?
Posts: 24453 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001
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Alwyn
Shipmate
# 4380
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by saysay:
[...]Frankly I don't understand why so many of the participants on a thread about an American election aren't American and why y'all seem so convinced that you know our culture better than we do. I don't understand why your reaction to everything in this thread isn't just to shrug. If the regressive left isn't a problem in the UK/Africa/Brazil then I'm happy for you.[...]
I'm not American. I'm fascinated by your Presidential election. Your excellent TV series The West Wing is partly to blame, but the main reason for my interest is that the next leader of the Free World will make decisions which will affect me. If, for example, the analysis of the Economist Intelligence Unit is accurate, Mr Trump's "hostile attitude towards free trade" could lead to a trade war and his "militaristic tendencies" about the Middle East could boost the recruitment of extremist groups.
I don't think I know your culture better than you do. Are there things which you wished that non-Americans understood about US culture, in the context of discussing a Presidential election?
Like RuthW, I'm curious about what the regressive left means. The Wikipedia page on it says that it refers to people on the left who tolerate bigotry - and this is particularly linked to tolerance of what Maajid Nawaz calls Islamism. Is that what you mean?
[fixing typo]
[ 24. March 2016, 07:22: Message edited by: Alwyn ]
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Post hoc, ergo propter hoc
Posts: 849 | From: UK | Registered: Apr 2003
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
saysay: Colleges are included in the Cathedral, they are not the Cathedral.
Okay, that doesn't change my argument in the slightest.
quote:
saysay: The Cathedral is a term used primarily in alt-right and NRX circles. Google 'cathedral moldbug' if you're really interested (warning: it may make your eyes bleed).
Yes, Nick Tamen's links were helpful too. The term 'Cathedral' seems to mean: we take an amorph grouple we don't like, and we throw random insinuations and accusations at them that are just vague enough for us to be able to say "we didn't say that" when called out on it.
The term 'regressive left' is another example of this. It sounds negative, but it is unclear what it means. We can always brick it up with anecdotes, which we can stick on the left by way of 'correlation error'. But we can pull out of it when necessary.
It is a way of framing the debate (again), but I'd like to have a more specific term for this form of framing.
quote:
saysay: Frankly I don't understand why so many of the participants on a thread about an American election aren't American and why y'all seem so convinced that you know our culture better than we do.
The main reason of course is that the Ship of Fools isn't a bulletin board restricted to US citizens. In fact, it explicitly invites diversity of arguments, which I take to include diversity of national backgrounds.
"Y'all seem so convinced that you know our culture better than we do" is another example of just randomly firing accusations at people and see what sticks. I never made such a claim, I'm simply pointing out the absurdity in the arguments you're trying to make.
quote:
cliffdweller: I would call it correlation error.
Thank you, yes, this term could be a good start.
I have the feeling that there exists a rather good terminology for logical fallacies (Wikipedia gives a good list of those), but I'm looking to find terminology for the ways in people use those and other tricks to influence debates. Maybe this kind of terminology doesn't exist (in that case someone should invent it).
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
What is "the regressive left"?
I think its another way of describing "The Cathedral".
The links Nick Tamen provided were interesting but the whole thesis demonstrates the problem of generalisation. It reminds me of the postmodern arguments about the evils of science.
Of course there are tyrannical people and of course there are bullies and of course there is arrogance, smugness and self righteousness and looking down noses. Such people and such behaviour is found amongst the adherents of all sorts of beliefs and opinions.
In my own understanding of the Christian faith, human behaviour demonstrates the struggle between the vice of human pride and the virtue of human humility. And it is a struggle for all of us. No segment of human belief and behaviour is free from it.
So I think the "regression" of the regressive left must mean that tendency to regress towards pride and self-righteousness in the way some folks behave towards others. It would be silly to deny that such regression doesn't exist, but it would be equally silly to assert that somehow it is an inevitable consequence of the beliefs and opinions commonly shared amongst people of the left, or liberals, or what-have-you. That's would just be smearing many good folks who are simply trying to work out what it means to be fair, without any intention of asserting a dominance.
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
Sorry for going on about my 'debate trick' tangent (I do think it is helpful for me).
I would like to coin the term 'slippery correlation' for one of the patterns I'm seeing here. The 'correlation' part refers to the logical error saysay is making; the word 'slippery' is meant to convey a form of intent.
It is about making a correlation between things, but refusing to state what the scope of the correlation is. This allows you to make the correlation very broad so that it attacks a wide group of people, but also to narrow the correlation down when pointed to the logical inconsistency of it.
Saysay linked to an article talking about something that happened in a college in the US and wrote "how the left is helping fuel the insanity". She is deliberately vague on what the scope is of the correlation she wants to make between what happened at the collage and 'the left'."
On one side, this allows her to tar 'the left' with a large brush. She wants whatever happened at that college to stick to all of us. One of the ways of doing this is using anecdotal evidence of course, but she can even back this up a bit by saying that college staff are more left-wing. Statistically that might even be true. It doesn't give her the logical arguments to generalise from one event to the whole 'left' of course, but it might just stick.
On the other side, it allows her to retreat a bit when people point out the logical inconsistencies in what she's saying. "I didn't say it was representative of the left" or "I was just saying it was an opinion of the left, not the only opinion". But at the same time hoping that some part of the accusation will still stick.
So, what I propose to say is "saysay linked to an article about something that happened at a college in the US and made a slippery correlation with the left". Would that be a useful term? Does there exist an 'official' term for what I'm describing here?
Now, I also want a name for something else she's doing here which is a bit broader. The term I'm looking for would refer to giving a slightly negative sounding name to a relatively large amorphous group of people, such as 'Cathedral' or 'regressive left' and throwing a lot of slippery correlations at them as a way of framing.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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Athrawes
Ship's parrot
# 9594
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Posted
Giving positive or negative adjectives to describe nouns is called positioning. Does that help?
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Explaining why is going to need a moment, since along the way we must take in the Ancient Greeks, the study of birds, witchcraft, 19thC Vaudeville and the history of baseball. Michael Quinion.
Posts: 2966 | From: somewhere with a book shop | Registered: Jun 2005
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simontoad
Ship's Amphibian
# 18096
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Posted
I'm not only intensely interested in US Presidential politics, but I really really want a vote. I'm excited to vote. I reckon it would be brilliant, but alas, I also want to live in Australia and vote here. I shall have to content myself with coming to visit in September, where I shall be able to fill myself with all the ads on TV, including the local ones which will be extra special, and gather up as much paraphernalia as people are willing to hand me for free.
I really want Trump stuff, but not Trump For President stuff. I'm thinking a shirt from Trump University, some Trump Steak, and maybe if I can swing it one of the T's from Trump Towers. The postage might be a killer on that, but I would love to hoist it over my chook shed as a souvenir of my time in the Big Apple.
A packet of Trump fags would be good too. Does he have a line in cigarettes?
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Human
Posts: 1571 | From: Romsey, Vic, AU | Registered: May 2014
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by saysay:
I'm a freak, I know that, that's fine.
I seriously doubt you are more freakish than 50% of your Shipmates. quote:
I just wish people would stop telling me to stop believing my lying eyes and ears. The way out of our godawful postmodern morass involves including as many perspectives as possible, not continuing the dominance game.
Eyes and ears are mere tools, seeing and listening something else and while varied perspectives matter the most critical and difficult thing to do is to reconcile them and uncover the sources that are, for one reason or another, concealed. Gold is rarely found on the surface.
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
Athrawes: Giving positive or negative adjectives to describe nouns is called positioning. Does that help?
Yes, that's a helpful starting point.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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Komensky
Shipmate
# 8675
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Posted
I'm trying to catch up on this thread. What happened to discussion about the US election?
K.
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"The English are not very spiritual people, so they invented cricket to give them some idea of eternity." - George Bernard Shaw
Posts: 1784 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2004
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Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061
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Posted
Nothing of major significance is going to happen for a while. The excitement of substance will kick up with the conventions, in the summer. The GOP convention in Cleveland shows every prospect of being a hoedown with real fireworks -- someone pointed out to me today that it is taking place in Kasich's home state, which is why he is not throwing in the towel. They have set up a call for extra riot barriers and police forces.
Our only hope of real incident between now and then is some (or even more) spectacular flameout or outrage from some candidate or another. It is this horrified fascination that is to the fore at this moment. To every thing there is a season, and a time for every meme under heaven.
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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page
Posts: 6378 | From: Washington DC | Registered: Mar 2014
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Pigwidgeon
Ship's Owl
# 10192
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by simontoad:
A packet of Trump fags would be good too.
Probably not a good way to ask for cigarettes in the U.S.
![[Biased]](wink.gif)
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"...that is generally a matter for Pigwidgeon, several other consenting adults, a bottle of cheap Gin and the odd giraffe."
~Tortuf
Posts: 9835 | From: Hogwarts | Registered: Aug 2005
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Pigwidgeon:
quote:
Originally posted by simontoad:
A packet of Trump fags would be good too.
Probably not a good way to ask for cigarettes in the U.S.
Or the UK (in the UK Trumps = farts)
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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Augustine the Aleut
Shipmate
# 1472
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
Nothing of major significance is going to happen for a while. The excitement of substance will kick up with the conventions, in the summer. The GOP convention in Cleveland shows every prospect of being a hoedown with real fireworks -- someone pointed out to me today that it is taking place in Kasich's home state, which is why he is not throwing in the towel. They have set up a call for extra riot barriers and police forces.
Our only hope of real incident between now and then is some (or even more) spectacular flameout or outrage from some candidate or another. It is this horrified fascination that is to the fore at this moment. To every thing there is a season, and a time for every meme under heaven.
Very much so. I open my daily electric New York Times in the morning, a bit nervous about what might have been said the day before. My Venezuelan postperson commented that she thought she had been watching the US news on Saturday, but it had turned out to be Saturday Night Live (a satirical and variety show, for those out of range of US television). She said that she knew many intelligent and decent US folks, but they did not seem to be running in the election. Perhaps locally, I suggested, and away from the television cameras.
Posts: 6236 | From: Ottawa, Canada | Registered: Oct 2001
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saysay
Ship's Praying Mantis
# 6645
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
What is "the regressive left"?
It's a term people I know use to refer to the (hopefully small) portion of the left that seeks to censor ideas it doesn't like and shut down conversation rather than engage in the liberal free exchange of ideas.
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
I think its another way of describing "The Cathedral".
No, not really, not the way I commonly hear those terms used. 'The Cathedral' is an inescapable web of interlocking systems verging on a conspiracy. The regressive left are a minority of people on the left, much like the Tea Partiers are on the right.
quote:
It would be silly to deny that such regression doesn't exist, but it would be equally silly to assert that somehow it is an inevitable consequence of the beliefs and opinions commonly shared amongst people of the left, or liberals, or what-have-you.
Well, yes. The point of distinguishing the regressive left as a small part of the overall left is that while they frequently claim to be progressive or liberal, their methods are frequently seen as abhorrent to others who call themselves liberals.
quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
She wants whatever happened at that college to stick to all of us.
Seriously, don't tell me what I want. I think you're engaged in serious projection here.
I don't want whatever happened at that college to stick to all of 'you' (whoever that may be). I want to address something that I see as a problem on the left within the US, something that I (and others) see as a trend that is driving people into Trump's camp. If it's not a problem anywhere else in the world, that's great, but you haven't presented an argument for why it's not a problem in the US. The only way I think what happened at that college (and what has happened at others in the US) tars everyone on the left (at least in the US) lies in our failure to call unacceptable behavior out.
quote:
One of the ways of doing this is using anecdotal evidence of course, but she can even back this up a bit by saying that college staff are more left-wing. Statistically that might even be true. It doesn't give her the logical arguments to generalise from one event to the whole 'left' of course, but it might just stick.
You're reading things that aren't there into what I said. I'm not generalizing anything (except maybe apathy) to the whole 'left.'
quote:
But at the same time hoping that some part of the accusation will still stick.
Keep incorrectly speculating about my motives and you'll wind up with a hellcall.
quote:
Now, I also want a name for something else she's doing here which is a bit broader. The term I'm looking for would refer to giving a slightly negative sounding name to a relatively large amorphous group of people, such as 'Cathedral' or 'regressive left' and throwing a lot of slippery correlations at them as a way of framing.
Here's the thing: I'm a descriptivist when it comes to linguistics. If everybody uses a word to mean a certain thing, and everybody (or almost everybody) understands the word to refer to that thing, then that is effectively the definition of the word.
You can see how, in an international community, this can get complicated right here in this thread. In the US, 'fag' is an extremely offensive term used to refer to homosexuals. It's the kind of word that, if used in a school or workplace, might very well have serious consequences for you. But we shippies have been around this particular offensive block a couple of times, and most of us have come to understand that in British English, a 'fag' refers to a cigarette. So we don't go calling each other to hell when the context makes the person's meaning clear.
I didn't invent the terms 'Cathedral' or 'regressive left.' They are terms used among the people I know to refer to specific ideas. Clearly they are not necessarily terms used internationally or even across the US. I didn't know that before I posted; I honestly have no idea how widespread their usage is.
In real life, I have to engage with Trump supporters and libertarians and all kinds of people who are not on the left who use terminology like this. I'm not the one setting the terms of this debate.
If you want to blame me for "giving a slightly negative sounding name to a relatively large amorphous group of people" I can't stop you. But it makes about as much sense as blaming me for the fact that 'fag' has negative connotations in the US that it doesn't necessarily have elsewhere.
Anyone want to discuss how Hillary lied us into Libya? Or are we all just waiting for the coronation?
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"It's been a long day without you, my friend
I'll tell you all about it when I see you again"
"'Oh sweet baby purple Jesus' - that's a direct quote from a 9 year old - shoutout to purple Jesus."
Posts: 2943 | From: The Wire | Registered: May 2004
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
saysay: I don't want whatever happened at that college to stick to all of 'you' (whoever that may be). I want to address something that I see as a problem on the left within the US
Exactly. You say that this is a problem on the left, but you're deliberately vague about how much it applies. You make the scope of the correlation bigger or smaller as needed.
I used the term 'slippery correlation' before, but I'm not entirely satisfied with the term 'slippery'. I want something that expresses "I can make it as big or as small as I want" a bit more clearly. I was thinking about 'accordion correlation' but that sounds a bit too cheerful (I like accordions).
quote:
saysay: Keep incorrectly speculating about my motives and you'll wind up with a hellcall.
Pretty please?
quote:
saysay: I didn't invent the terms 'Cathedral' or 'regressive left.'
No, but you gave me a pretty good idea of what these terms mean.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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saysay
Ship's Praying Mantis
# 6645
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
quote:
saysay: I don't want whatever happened at that college to stick to all of 'you' (whoever that may be). I want to address something that I see as a problem on the left within the US
Exactly. You say that this is a problem on the left, but you're deliberately vague about how much it applies. You make the scope of the correlation bigger or smaller as needed.
"As needed"? As needed for what? This is a discussion board. I'm attempting to understand and discuss my culture and Trump's popularity.
Has it occurred to you that I'm not being deliberately vague about how much it applies, but that I in fact don't know, seeing as how I'm not omniscient? And that maybe, just maybe, that's why I'm interested in discussing it? Did you miss the post where I admitted to cliffdweller that I realize my perspective may be skewed?
What's the word for the argumentative technique in which you derail discussion by insisting on speculating about a person's intentions or motives for holding positions they don't actually hold? It seems to be popular on the ship.
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"It's been a long day without you, my friend
I'll tell you all about it when I see you again"
"'Oh sweet baby purple Jesus' - that's a direct quote from a 9 year old - shoutout to purple Jesus."
Posts: 2943 | From: The Wire | Registered: May 2004
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Nick Tamen
Ship's Wayfaring Fool
# 15164
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by saysay:
I didn't invent the terms 'Cathedral' or 'regressive left.' They are terms used among the people I know to refer to specific ideas. Clearly they are not necessarily terms used internationally or even across the US. I didn't know that before I posted; I honestly have no idea how widespread their usage is.
FWIW, I'm American, and I like to think I'm reasonably well informed and attentive. I do have some direct involvement in academia. Having said that, I had never heard either term until this thread. The two links I provided were found by googling. My hunch is that both terms, but perhaps "the Cathedral" in particular, are mainly used by a particular group and may not have hit the mainstream yet.
I will admit that the idea of "the Cathedral" sets my conspiracy-theory-trumps-reality antennae a-tingle. I'm not suggesting that about you, or assuming anything other than that you're using terms you're familiar with to label what you're describing from your experience. But the label itself does give me that vibe.
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The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. — Anne Lamott
Posts: 2833 | From: On heaven-crammed earth | Registered: Sep 2009
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Augustine the Aleut:
My Venezuelan postperson commented that she thought she had been watching the US news on Saturday, but it had turned out to be Saturday Night Live (a satirical and variety show, for those out of range of US television).
Conversely, a couple weeks ago when the actual, live prime-time Republican debate devolved into a middle-school literal pissing contest re who's junk is bigger, I was sure I must be watching the opening segment of SNL... but no, this was the real thing. Maybe that's the real reason Jon Stewart retired early (sob, snif)-- there's not much left for the satirical shows when you've got real life absurdities like this.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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saysay
Ship's Praying Mantis
# 6645
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
I used the term 'slippery correlation' before, but I'm not entirely satisfied with the term 'slippery'. I want something that expresses "I can make it as big or as small as I want" a bit more clearly. I was thinking about 'accordion correlation' but that sounds a bit too cheerful (I like accordions).
Instead of getting offended by smears against the entire left that I'm not making or picking apart the logic of generalities that I'm not making (however sloppy my language), do you want to argue with the assertion that I am making?
Can we agree that the students protesting Trump campaign slogans written in chalk as acts of violence are unlikely to be on the right and in all likelihood consider themselves to be members of the left?
Now, do you agree or disagree with my assertion that this behavior - and much of the rest of the left's tolerance for it and failure to call it out - is part of what is fueling Trump's popularity?
quote:
Originally posted by Nick Tamen:
FWIW, I'm American, and I like to think I'm reasonably well informed and attentive. I do have some direct involvement in academia. Having said that, I had never heard either term until this thread. The two links I provided were found by googling. My hunch is that both terms, but perhaps "the Cathedral" in particular, are mainly used by a particular group and may not have hit the mainstream yet.
I think you're probably right about that. IME at the very least they're used a lot more on the right and in libertarian circles, and the ship tends to be a fairly lefty place.
quote:
I will admit that the idea of "the Cathedral" sets my conspiracy-theory-trumps-reality antennae a-tingle. I'm not suggesting that about you, or assuming anything other than that you're using terms you're familiar with to label what you're describing from your experience. But the label itself does give me that vibe.
Oh, definitely. I just find it a convenient shorthand to refer to both a certain set of beliefs and the people who believe them, most of whom I consider complete nutjobs.
But as Ruth pointed out upthread, nutjobs get a vote too. If we're lucky they'll be disgusted with their choices this election season and stay home.
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"It's been a long day without you, my friend
I'll tell you all about it when I see you again"
"'Oh sweet baby purple Jesus' - that's a direct quote from a 9 year old - shoutout to purple Jesus."
Posts: 2943 | From: The Wire | Registered: May 2004
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Nicolemr
Shipmate
# 28
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Posted
Snopes.com just published their debunking of what happened at Emory regarding chalked "Trump 2016" graffiti. Seems like it's not quite the way it's been reported:
Snopes
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On pilgrimage in the endless realms of Cyberia, currently traveling by ship. Now with live journal!
Posts: 11803 | From: New York City "The City Carries On" | Registered: May 2001
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saysay
Ship's Praying Mantis
# 6645
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Posted
Huh. I hadn't even heard the claims that snopes is debunking there.
IMO what they admit as true is damning enough.
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"It's been a long day without you, my friend
I'll tell you all about it when I see you again"
"'Oh sweet baby purple Jesus' - that's a direct quote from a 9 year old - shoutout to purple Jesus."
Posts: 2943 | From: The Wire | Registered: May 2004
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by saysay:
Can we agree that the students protesting Trump campaign slogans written in chalk as acts of violence are unlikely to be on the right and in all likelihood consider themselves to be members of the left?
Now, do you agree or disagree with my assertion that this behavior - and much of the rest of the left's tolerance for it and failure to call it out - is part of what is fueling Trump's popularity?
Lord, I hope not. I have absolutely no idea what in the world is fueling Trump's popularity. As mentioned upthread, despite swimming in some very very conservative con-evo circles, I don't know a single Trump supporter-- or at least anyone who'll own up to it. So I have no idea what in the world is driving his popularity, I can't even figure out where the heck these people are. I've heard a lot of hand-wringing and a lot of speculation but so far really haven't heard any real-live Trump supporters explaining why/what is driving them. There were a couple of links upthread but they didn't really tell us much.
So I have no clue. But I would hope, if it's anger that's driving this group, that there would be a heck of a lot more to it than that.
This is not new behavior. It wasn't invented by "the Left" whether big-L "Cathedral" left or small-l normal progressives. It's not millennial behavior. It's adolescent behavior. This is what young-just-out-of-the-house 18-22 year olds do. They get passionate, they argue, they get offended easily, they blow things out of proportion. It's age-appropriate. Now, when grown-up adult men in their 40's and above start doing it in the middle of a presidential debate, now that's just plain nutty. But 18-22 year olds? No, that's normal.
So I sure as heck hope that if it's anger that's driving Trump supporters, they've got something a lot more substantial than that to be angry about. There's a lot to choose from-- politicians diddling around when there's serious work to be done; unfunded wars that only stoke the fires of terrorism, an entitled Wall Street crowd that is fiscally raping the middle class. But 18-22 year olds acting like 18-22 year olds? No.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by saysay:
IMO what they admit as true is damning enough.
Damning of who? Why????
![[Confused]](confused.gif)
They admit:
1. There was pro-Trump graffiti
2. The university had internal conversations about it
No counseling sessions, no "safe places", no hands slapped, no chalk taken away from naughty toddlers.
What in the world is "damning" there???
This is, again, the sort of thing that has been happening not only on college campus but pretty much anywhere/everywhere that 18-22 year olds hang out since time began. And yeah, people talk about it when it happens. So...????
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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Marama
Shipmate
# 330
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Posted
Why did the Emory students not either
A. Get a bucket and brush and wash the slogan off or B. Cover it up with their own poster?
Graffiti wars amongst students have gone on for ever. Involving the management seems extraordinary.
Posts: 910 | From: Canberra | Registered: May 2001
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marama:
Why did the Emory students not either
A. Get a bucket and brush and wash the slogan off or B. Cover it up with their own poster?
Graffiti wars amongst students have gone on for ever. Involving the management seems extraordinary.
Doesn't sound like that is what happened. From the Snopes article linked above:
quote:
In nearly all such claims, details of the actual controversy were obfuscated by embellished elements framing students or schools as overly sensitive. While it was true some students of color expressed that the large number of Trump chalkings made them uneasy, most simply gathered to express their political distaste for the presidential candidate and his platforms on issues of race and religion.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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RuthW
liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
Nothing of major significance is going to happen for a while.
Baloney. Trump is the only Republican candidate with a realistic chance of gaining enough pledged delegates to win the nomination on the first ballot at the convention, but he hasn't pulled so far away from Cruz as to make the rest of the primary voting a moot point. It is increasingly likely that the June 7 primaries in California, New Jersey and a few small states will determine whether Trump goes to Cleveland with the nomination sewn up or facing a contested or even a brokered convention. Recent polling, as reported in the San Jose Mercury News, shows Trump with a marked lead in delegate-rich California, but it also shows that he didn't pick up any votes here when Rubio dropped out of the race, which may indicate that he has maxed out his support at less than 40% of the electorate.
The other thing of major significance that will happen before the Republican convention is the the jockeying for position on the Republican convention rules committee.
Posts: 24453 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
saysay: What's the word for the argumentative technique in which you derail discussion by insisting on speculating about a person's intentions or motives for holding positions they don't actually hold? It seems to be popular on the ship.
I don't know. Suggest something.
quote:
saysay: Can we agree that the students protesting Trump campaign slogans written in chalk as acts of violence are unlikely to be on the right and in all likelihood consider themselves to be members of the left?
Now, do you agree or disagree with my assertion that this behavior - and much of the rest of the left's tolerance for it and failure to call it out - is part of what is fueling Trump's popularity?
First of all, you keep talking from the starting point that these students or their Rector did something wrong. They didn't.
But even if they did. Your reasoning seems to be:
These students protested against slogans ⇒ this helps Trump
Except you put another step in between:
These students protested against slogans ⇒ they have a vague connection with the left ⇒ this helps Trump
Followed by a rather strong sense of "forget about these students, let's talk about the left". This extra step you put in between gives a very strong impression that you want to smear the left with something. If you want to avoid the appearance of accusing the left, phrasing things differently from "How the left is helping fuel the insanity" might be a good first step.
I've read a lot of accusations that the left (or President Obama specifically) are somehow to blame for Trump. Sorry, but that's bullshit. The voters who are more than happy to put a wall between them and Mexico are to blame for Trump.
Even if there were some truth in this: suppose that there are some things the Democratic Party does for its own reasons, but that indirectly strengthen Trump. Should it stop doing those things? I don't think so. Democrats shouldn't let Trump dictate their agenda.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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Crœsos
Shipmate
# 238
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by saysay:
I didn't say that "all colleges are staffed by the left." But it's a known fact that people working in higher ed lean left, which means most of the policies are written and implemented by members of the left.
Given the increasing divide between faculty and administration at these institutions I'm not sure you can reach any conclusions about who is writing policies by surveying who is on faculty. I'm also pretty sure that a college's anti-vandalism rules aren't necessarily "left" or "right". Seems kind of value neutral to me.
I've come to distrust surveys like this, since they often seem deliberately constructed to provide the "right" answer. For instance, in this one:
quote:
Among full-time faculty members at four-year colleges and universities, the percentage identifying as "far left" or liberal has increased notably in the last three years, while the percentage identifying in three other political categories has declined.
You'll note that the study is (deliberately?) constructed in such a way to exclude faculty at law schools or business colleges, which are typically administratively separate from undergraduate schools and usually not four-year programs. I have no data, but these institutions have a reputation for being somewhat politically conservative. The fact that the study was constructed in such a way to exclude the faculty at these schools seems like fishing for the "right" answer.
Another interesting factor is the deliberate exclusion of adjunct faculty. While I'm not sure this would skew the political distribution much, given how much of the teaching load at modern colleges and universities has been offloaded onto adjuncts (estimated by some as around 70% of undergraduate teaching) their exclusion from the study is curious. Kind of like the survey administrators were trying to measure academia as it was twenty or thirty years ago rather than as it is today.
A final factor not taken into account is the much wider prevalence of non-teaching academia on the political right in the U.S. Places like the American Enterprise Institute or Heritage Foundation allow conservative academics a place to do their research and provide platforms for publication without requiring the distractions of teaching. The greater availability of an alternate career path (and one that pays a lot better than adjunct positions) may be diverting conservatively-inclined academics without the need for a vast, left-wing conspiracy.
[ 25. March 2016, 13:19: Message edited by: Crœsos ]
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Humani nil a me alienum puto
Posts: 10706 | From: Sardis, Lydia | Registered: May 2001
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mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by saysay:
What's the word for the argumentative technique in which you derail discussion by insisting on speculating about a person's intentions or motives for holding positions they don't actually hold? It seems to be popular on the ship.
Bulverism. It comes from C.S. Lewis and outside certain Christian/peri-Christian circles I don't think its widely used. More's the pity - it's a great insight.
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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon
Posts: 12277 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2004
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Crœsos
Shipmate
# 238
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
I've read a lot of accusations that the left (or President Obama specifically) are somehow to blame for Trump. Sorry, but that's bullshit. The voters who are more than happy to put a wall between them and Mexico are to blame for Trump.
Even if there were some truth in this: suppose that there are some things the Democratic Party does for its own reasons, but that indirectly strengthen Trump. Should it stop doing those things? I don't think so. Democrats shouldn't let Trump dictate their agenda.
Jamelle Bouie has some interesting thoughts about Trump's rise.
quote:
But none of these theories answer the question why now. Each of these forces has been in play for years. Wages for working-class Americans have long been stagnant, and the collapse of job opportunities for workers without a college degree was apparent in the 1990s, long before the Great Recession. What’s more, economic and social decline—as well as frustration with foreign competition, which Trump has channeled in his campaign—isn’t unique to white Americans. Millions of Americans—blacks and Latinos in particular—have faced declining economic prospects and social disintegration for years without turning to a demagogue like Trump.
<snip>
We can’t say the same for Obama as a political symbol, however. In a nation shaped and defined by a rigid racial hierarchy, his election was very much a radical event, in which a man from one of the nation’s lowest castes ascended to the summit of its political landscape. And he did so with heavy support from minorities: Asian Americans and Latinos were an important part of Obama’s coalition, and black Americans turned out at their highest numbers ever in 2008.
<snip>
For millions of white Americans who weren’t attuned to growing diversity and cosmopolitanism, however, Obama was a shock, a figure who appeared out of nowhere to dominate the country’s political life. And with talk of an “emerging Democratic majority,” he presaged a time when their votes—which had elected George W. Bush, George H.W. Bush, and Ronald Reagan—would no longer matter. More than simply “change,” Obama’s election felt like an inversion. When coupled with the broad decline in incomes and living standards caused by the Great Recession, it seemed to signal the end of a hierarchy that had always placed white Americans at the top, delivering status even when it couldn’t give material benefits.
The whole thing is worth a read, but the short version is that Obama is to "blame" for Trump's rise because he's been blatantly PWB*. This is regarded as intolerable to a certain segment of the American population.
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*Presidenting While Black
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Humani nil a me alienum puto
Posts: 10706 | From: Sardis, Lydia | Registered: May 2001
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Soror Magna
Shipmate
# 9881
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:
quote:
Originally posted by saysay:
I didn't say that "all colleges are staffed by the left." But it's a known fact that people working in higher ed lean left, which means most of the policies are written and implemented by members of the left.
Given the increasing divide between faculty and administration at these institutions I'm not sure you can reach any conclusions about who is writing policies by surveying who is on faculty. ...
My institution of higher learning has a bicameral governing structure. The Senate is the academic governing body, and is, as you would expect, mostly tenured faculty. The Board of Governors, on the other hand, has financial authority, and consists mainly of wealthy and well-connected conservative donors to the current governing political party. They're most definitely not lefties. Faculties such as law, medicine, commerce, engineering, or forestry aren't exactly teeming with lefties either. IME, scientists that don't work in biological or environmental sciences are just as likely to be lefties or righties.
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"You come with me to room 1013 over at the hospital, I'll show you America. Terminal, crazy and mean." -- Tony Kushner, "Angels in America"
Posts: 5430 | From: Caprica City | Registered: Jul 2005
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Palimpsest
Shipmate
# 16772
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Posted
Today was Democratic Caucus day in Washington State. The caucus I went to was very crowded. Since it was a suburban neighborhood it was 23 to 18 Clinton to Sanders which meant 3 to 1 delegates to the country caucus.
Overall Sanders won the state by a substantial margin It doesn't mean to much, but you could see traces of an earlier way which may have been useful.
I kept thinking of the Will Roger's line "I'm not a member of any organized political party -- I'm a Democrat.
Posts: 2990 | From: Seattle WA. US | Registered: Nov 2011
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simontoad
Ship's Amphibian
# 18096
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Posted
Thanks for pointing us back to the election, rather than the broader cultural wars.
I've very much enjoyed reading the stuff posted by saysay and the responses to her posts. It's been a great discussion. I've had a bit of fun, as is my wont, but I've also been learning. I love learning.
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Human
Posts: 1571 | From: Romsey, Vic, AU | Registered: May 2014
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Honest Ron Bacardi
Shipmate
# 38
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by simontoad:
Thanks for pointing us back to the election, rather than the broader cultural wars.
I've very much enjoyed reading the stuff posted by saysay and the responses to her posts. It's been a great discussion. I've had a bit of fun, as is my wont, but I've also been learning. I love learning.
Whilst tangents can go wandering off into the undergrowth, it's difficult to see how to understand what is happening (on the GOP side especially) without considering the culture from which his support is drawn.
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Anglo-Cthulhic
Posts: 4857 | From: the corridors of Pah! | Registered: May 2001
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Stercus Tauri
Shipmate
# 16668
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
quote:
Originally posted by Pigwidgeon:
quote:
Originally posted by simontoad:
A packet of Trump fags would be good too.
Probably not a good way to ask for cigarettes in the U.S.
Or the UK (in the UK Trumps = farts)
Gratuitous tangent from my anecdotage: An English colleague who had just quit smoking was in a bar in rural Arizona at the end of a long day of flight trials, and remarked that he was dying for a fag. Dead silence in the bar...
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Thay haif said. Quhat say thay, Lat thame say (George Keith, 5th Earl Marischal)
Posts: 905 | From: On the traditional lands of the Six Nations. | Registered: Sep 2011
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Hedgehog
Ship's Shortstop
# 14125
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Posted
Leader Trump is suggesting his policies of disengaging from our allies is not isolationism but a case of "America First".
Which makes me wonder if he really intended to refer back to the organization "America First" that Charles Lindbergh was organizing in the Spring of 1941 to keep the United States from entering WW II against Nazi Germany (under the curious argument that we'd lose and, if democracy perishes in Europe, it is the fault of the losing democratic countries for picking a fight with Nazi Germany that they couldn't win) (which, in turn, led Woody Guthrie to sing, in his caustic song "Lindbergh": "They say America First; they mean America next.")
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"We must regain the conviction that we need one another, that we have a shared responsibility for others and the world, and that being good and decent are worth it."--Pope Francis, Laudato Si'
Posts: 2740 | From: Delaware, USA | Registered: Sep 2008
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Palimpsest:
Today was Democratic Caucus day in Washington State. The caucus I went to was very crowded. Since it was a suburban neighborhood it was 23 to 18 Clinton to Sanders which meant 3 to 1 delegates to the country caucus.
Overall Sanders won the state by a substantial margin It doesn't mean to much, but you could see traces of an earlier way which may have been useful.
I kept thinking of the Will Roger's line "I'm not a member of any organized political party -- I'm a Democrat.
Our precinct went 29–8 for Bernie.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Robert Armin
All licens'd fool
# 182
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Posted
Recently on Facebook a statement has been going round, saying NONE of Sanders' other Democratic Senators have endorsed him. Does anyone know if this statement is true and, if so, significant? From my perspective it doesn't sound good. (Posting as an ignorant Brit, who finds this thread fascinating and informative.)
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Keeping fit was an obsession with Fr Moity .... He did chin ups in the vestry, calisthenics in the pulpit, and had developed a series of Tai-Chi exercises to correspond with ritual movements of the Mass. The Antipope Robert Rankin
Posts: 8927 | From: In the pack | Registered: May 2001
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
Robert Armin: Recently on Facebook a statement has been going round, saying NONE of Sanders' other Democratic Senators have endorsed him.
I think this is true. He has a couple of endorsements from House Representatives, but not from Senators or Governors.
[ 27. March 2016, 22:03: Message edited by: LeRoc ]
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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Robert Armin
All licens'd fool
# 182
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Posted
If he's not being endorsed by those who work with him, and presumably know what he's like, that sounds like a vote of No Confidence that should be taken seriously. Which is a shame, as I like what he says.
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Keeping fit was an obsession with Fr Moity .... He did chin ups in the vestry, calisthenics in the pulpit, and had developed a series of Tai-Chi exercises to correspond with ritual movements of the Mass. The Antipope Robert Rankin
Posts: 8927 | From: In the pack | Registered: May 2001
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Crœsos
Shipmate
# 238
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
quote:
Robert Armin: Recently on Facebook a statement has been going round, saying NONE of Sanders' other Democratic Senators have endorsed him.
I think this is true. He has a couple of endorsements from House Representatives, but not from Senators or Governors.
In the Democratic party sitting Democratic Representatives, Senators, and Governors cast votes at the Democratic National Convention as unpledged delegates (a.k.a superdelegates). As such, there's often a bit of a political calculus going on in their endorsements, since if they pick wrong they've just voted against their party's eventual nominee (and possibly against the next president). Hillary Clinton was fairly aggressive in courting superdelegates early (Barack Obama had done the same thing to her in 2008 and Hillary Clinton almost never makes the same mistake twice) and had locked up almost 400 of them before the first vote was cast in Iowa. In other words, Sanders not just has to convince other Senators that they like his message, he has to convince them that he's got a realistic chance of winning.
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Humani nil a me alienum puto
Posts: 10706 | From: Sardis, Lydia | Registered: May 2001
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
The Senators who work with him get funds for their reelection campaigns from the DNC. The DNC is plumping for Hilary. I'll let you draw the equals sign and do the arithmetic.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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RuthW
liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13
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Posted
The other thing is that Sanders only became a Democrat last year, in order to run for president. He was before that an independent, the longest-serving independent in Congress ever, though he caucused with the Democrats. There really is little or no benefit for Democratic Senators in endorsing Sanders, and endorsements are a two-way street - you have to consider how the endorser benefits as much as how the endorsed does.
Posts: 24453 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001
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