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Source: (consider it) Thread: Purgatory: U.S. Presidential Election 2016
Stetson
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quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
Presumably, if you're anti-abortion and anti-gay, you're going to vote Trump, whether or not you're evangelical, or Christian?

You'd think so, but apparently it's problematic for folks like Alan Noble (the author of the Vox article cited by Josephine). The objections all seem to boil down to the idea that Trump cannot be trusted to deliver on his promises. Given that Team R has been playing this game for decades (vote for an abortion ban, actually get an upper-income tax cut!) I can only surmise it's because Trump is just a lot more brazen about it than past Republican politicians.
From what I've seen, GOP presidents ARE inclined to appoint judges(at various levels) who, for example, take a narrow interpretation of Roe V. Wade(without actually overturning it), and implement bans on abortion funding, both domestically and overseas.

I suspect that Trump can be counted on to do stuff like that(he has said as much about Planned Parenthood, even as he praised their non-abortion services), and the evangelical base knows it.

And even if he's attended a zillion "great gay weddings" and thinks that "everyone should just use the washrooms they want", he can always wash his hands of having to walk the walk on such issues, by saying that they're state-level and he can't interfere.

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Stetson
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The first question on that Patheos blog, wondering about how Christians can support someone who "is famous for unwholesome talk and putting people down" is possibly a little naive about the calibre of morality we ALREADY have in politics.

During the 2000 primaries, push-polls in one southern state implied that John McCain had fathered an illegitimate black child. These calls were made at a time when McCain was stumping the state in the company of his family, including an adopted child from India.

A multitude of similar examples could be produced, from across the political spectrum, and in countries outside the US as well. I guess a guy like Trump does go a step further, dropping even the facade of decent behaviour, but once you know how politics are done behind the scenes, it's kinda hard to take seriously the earnest hand-wringing about "unwholesome talk" and "putting people down".

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I have the power...Lucifer is lord!

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cliffdweller
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It also seems so clueless. Yeah, sure we were a bit uncomfortable when he started advocating violence against those who disagree with you, spreading lies about whole groups of people and talking about bombing the families of people he doesn't like into oblivion. But when you start using coarse language that's when it crosses a line.
[brick wall]

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Barnabas62
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quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
It also seems so clueless. Yeah, sure we were a bit uncomfortable when he started advocating violence against those who disagree with you, spreading lies about whole groups of people and talking about bombing the families of people he doesn't like into oblivion. But when you start using coarse language that's when it crosses a line.
[brick wall]

Reminds me of a well known storyline from a Tony Campolo sermon on his first visit to the UK. Telling about a sermon given to a ultra-conservative church in the US.

"Yesterday and everyday , according to UN statistics, 30,000 children aged under one year died because of lack of food, water, proper care. And the truth is, you don't give a shit. And what's more, you care more about the fact that I said shit than those 30,000 deaths a day".

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cliffdweller
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Yes, it's become apocryphal. I heard it as Wheaton College. But it's vintage Tony-- in part because it's so spot on.

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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner

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Barnabas62
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I'm an eyewitness. The sermon was delivered at one of the very early Spring Harvest conferences in the UK (at Prestatyn). You could feel the shockwaves running through the two thousand or so delegates there. I got into a bit of trouble that night as a result of my spontaneous and pretty loud "Right on!" response. Disapproving stares etc. But it changed the place for the better, elevated the importance of social justice issues within UK evangelicalism.

Just been watching Anderson Cooper on CNN re Trump and GOP support. Some discussion about Trump's 'refreshing' directness compared with Hillary's professional side-stepping. The truth is that his spontaneous responses reveal all too clearly the underlying ugliness of his character.

I'm sure that many GOP politicians would like him to make more use of scripted speeches written by professionals, just to make him less embarrassing to them, do less damage to others seeking election/reelection in November. But we've now seen what he's really like. I guess the ugliness of character is attractive to those who share his prejudices. But that's way away from the majority of the US electorate.

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Prester John
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quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
It also seems so clueless. Yeah, sure we were a bit uncomfortable when he started advocating violence against those who disagree with you, spreading lies about whole groups of people and talking about bombing the families of people he doesn't like into oblivion. But when you start using coarse language that's when it crosses a line.
[brick wall]

Reminds me of a well known storyline from a Tony Campolo sermon on his first visit to the UK. Telling about a sermon given to a ultra-conservative church in the US.

"Yesterday and everyday , according to UN statistics, 30,000 children aged under one year died because of lack of food, water, proper care. And the truth is, you don't give a shit. And what's more, you care more about the fact that I said shit than those 30,000 deaths a day".

I'm glad he was blessed with the ability to read the hearts and minds of a church full of people. What a prophet.
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Barnabas62
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That point is probably relevant to this thread. Close to 35 years ago, when the story was doing the rounds, it was certainly true in the UK that there was general suspicion in conevo circles of "the social gospel" and "liberalism". Faith had been "privatised", made very largely a matter of personal conversion and personal morality. Religion and politics were not supposed to mix. The social justice dimension, (as another radical book of the time put it, "God's bias to the poor"), really didn't get much of a look in.

That was the context that Campolo was challenging. The context was a criticism of a collective prevailing attitude, not a universal condemnation. I don't claim to have got the words completely right; it was a quote from memory.

But from this side of the pond, the emphasis on personal responsibility, the suspicion of liberalism, social intervention, still seems to have something of a hold in US conservative evangelicalism. I know it doesn't apply to everyone, but I wouldn't be surprised if it was a factor still at work when evaluating presidential candidates. UK evangelicalism has changed since the early 1980's; most folks I know see no conflict between a message of personal conversion and active involvement in matters of social responsibility.

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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?

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Golden Key
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Re Shipmates with Millenial kids reluctant to vote:

Are the kids aware of Rock The Vote? It's for them. I don't know whether they should or shouldn't vote, but the site might be useful.

Also, PopSugar has a list of ways for people to figure out who to choose, and become involved. (It's a magazine for young women, mostly. Lots of pop culture, but also more serious things.)

FWIW, YMMV, etc.

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Jane R
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Hillary Clinton doesn't have to be perfect.

She just has to be better than Donald Trump.

The bar is not set very high.

quote:
Some discussion about Trump's 'refreshing' directness compared with Hillary's professional side-stepping.
Translation:

Refreshing directness = Every time he opens his mouth his brains fall out

Professional side-stepping = Refuses to allow hostile interviewers to say things she doesn't mean or can't back up with evidence

[ 09. June 2016, 13:17: Message edited by: Jane R ]

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Jane R
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sorry for the double-post, but that should be

"refuses to let hostile interviewers trick her into saying things she doesn't mean or can't back up with evidence"

If you don't want her, we'll have her over here. Warts and all...

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Josephine

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Thanks Golden Key!

I think that anyone over 40 who cares about the election would do well to listen to the 30-and-unders, and try to understand their concerns. Writing them off as a bunch of privileged idiots isn't going to do any of us any good.

I got curious when my son started talking about people he knew who were planning to vote for either Trump or Sanders, whichever one ended up on the ballot in November. How could someone say that? It made no sense to me!

So I started asking questions and listening. And I heard ignorance, of course. (A 20-year-old male really doesn't understand the indignities women my age faced at work when we were their age.) And privilege. But I heard a lot of pain and fear and hopelessness.

These aren't kids who know they'll never have to work a minimum wage job. These are kids who are already working minimum wage, or not working and afraid that the only kind of job they'll ever be able to get is a "freelance" job that doesn't even provide minimum wage. The gig economy. Student loans. Unaffordable housing.

I hope there are people on Hillary's campaign listening to the young people who were flocking to Bernie. Because it will make a difference come November. It might make the difference between a Trump presidency and a Clinton presidency.

And I don't want a Trump presidency.

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Brenda Clough
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quote:

But from this side of the pond, the emphasis on personal responsibility, the suspicion of liberalism, social intervention, still seems to have something of a hold in US conservative evangelicalism.

Uh? In the US the emphasis on personal responsibility has always been there, sometimes to cruel effect. The boast about being 'a maker not a taker' is heard in this context; I have a friend who qualifies for food stamps but does not dare to file for them because her neighbors would denigrate it.
But social intervention is king, in evangelical circles. There is hardly a uterus they don't want to run, and they'll happily climb into bed with you and point out to you that your partner is not to their liking. Throw the name 'Terry Schiavo' into a search window, and stand back -- even your deathbed is not free from their commentary.

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Barnabas62
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We're at cross purposes, Brenda. I'm not talking about policing the personal morality of others. Think Dom Helder Camara. The difference between acts of charity and supporting social reform in favour of the disadvantaged. Or, more recently, the themes explored by Jim Wallis in God's Politics.

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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?

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Brenda Clough
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Alas, these are not the first image that snap into the mind of most Americans when you say 'evangelical.' I fear that the term has been tainted now for our generation.
An assessment of the current state of play, by one of the most articulate commentators I know. And, cheeringly, he lives in the swing state of Ohio.

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moonlitdoor
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quote:

posted by Josephine

I got curious when my son started talking about people he knew who were planning to vote for either Trump or Sanders, whichever one ended up on the ballot in November. How could someone say that? It made no sense to me!


It seems to me that there are several kinds of divide in political attitudes, and one is between people who are strongly optimistic about the consequences of change and people who are not.

Most politicians promise a lot but some talk especially strongly about how they will dramatically improve things by making wholesale changes. Both Donald Trump and Bernie Sanders come in this category.

On the other side you have politicians who are content to tinker with the existing setup, hoping to rub off some of the rough edges and make small improvements.

Personally I never vote for a candidate from the first group, because I see them as fantasists, and the second group as realists. There are various other reasons why I wouldn't vote for Donald Trump, but this is the main reason I was very keen for Hillary Clinton to get the nomination.

However for who don't share my scepticism about the likely consequence of wholesale change, the desire to vote for a candidate of change may be very strong. Perhaps in some cases more important than what exactly the change is.

[ 09. June 2016, 18:28: Message edited by: moonlitdoor ]

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mousethief

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quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
We're at cross purposes, Brenda. I'm not talking about policing the personal morality of others. Think Dom Helder Camara. The difference between acts of charity and supporting social reform in favour of the disadvantaged. Or, more recently, the themes explored by Jim Wallis in God's Politics.

But Brenda has a point. The American Evangelical Right as a generalization is very involved in public life, but not in feeding the homeless, but in dictating other people's morality. Thankfully there are exceptions, but they don't get the airtime, and people speaking out against the Great Evangelical Morality Machine, like Rachel Held Evans, get ignored by non-Christians and rape threats from GLEs.

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simontoad
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quote:
Originally posted by Josephine:
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
Interesting points, Josephine. Following the parallels, Hillary is a racist and a misogynist?

No, they don't think she's a racist and a misogynist. The kids that I'm hearing are young, but they're not stupid. They just think that she is so supportive of and beholden to the banksters and the military-industrial complex that nothing will change under her. And they think the system has to change, if they're going to have a shot at a stable adult life.
Short of violent revolution in North America, that system is not going to change substantially in the next decade, even if Che Guevara rose from the grave and became president. That's something that needs to change slowly if democratic methods are to be used. The job of your youth, should they choose to accept it, is to shape and participate in that change.

In my lifetime as a politically aware person, only one massive change seemed to happen overnight: the collapse of the Soviet empire in Eastern Europe. I reckon if I was East German though, I could explain to you how wrong that statement is from their perspective.

As an aside, in one of the churches I visit the congregation includes a gay couple who own a trabant. So cool.

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Golden Key
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mt--

Thanks for mentioning Rachel. Don't think I'd heard of her, but I'm reading some of her work online.
[Cool]

For non-Americans: There's a saying that "The Religious Right is neither".

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--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
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cliffdweller
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quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
mt--

Thanks for mentioning Rachel. Don't think I'd heard of her, but I'm reading some of her work online.
[Cool] .

RHE is one of my favorites (although she self-identifies as "post-evangelical"). She is a voice for the new, younger, and far far more liberal/socially conscious generation of evangelicals. Others include Shane Clairborne, Ron Sider, Jim Wallis, Tony Campolo, Brian McLaren, and the late Glen Stassen.

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Barnabas62
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I like Rachel Held Evans and I think if I lived in the US I'd be describing myself as post evangelical as well.

But this made me smile! The Donald got his comeuppance courtesy of the timely relevance of the liturgy. Maybe the blog entry got a mention earlier in this thread; if so, I'd missed it. Well worth unearthing now; a good read, in the context of this thread.

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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?

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Doone
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RHE [Overused]
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Og: Thread Killer
Ship's token CN Mennonite
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quote:
Originally posted by Prester John:
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
It also seems so clueless. Yeah, sure we were a bit uncomfortable when he started advocating violence against those who disagree with you, spreading lies about whole groups of people and talking about bombing the families of people he doesn't like into oblivion. But when you start using coarse language that's when it crosses a line.
[brick wall]

Reminds me of a well known storyline from a Tony Campolo sermon on his first visit to the UK. Telling about a sermon given to a ultra-conservative church in the US.

"Yesterday and everyday , according to UN statistics, 30,000 children aged under one year died because of lack of food, water, proper care. And the truth is, you don't give a shit. And what's more, you care more about the fact that I said shit than those 30,000 deaths a day".

I'm glad he was blessed with the ability to read the hearts and minds of a church full of people. What a prophet.
You obviously havn't heard much North American evangelical preaching for the last 20 years.

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Og: Thread Killer
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Since my conversion to Christianity over 34 years ago, I have identified as a liberal evangelical.

We have been around for decades, if not centuries if you believe the historiography of us Mennonites.


Having watched youth over the last 34 years ebb and flow as to what they think, I would hesitate to identify any youth cohort as thinking as a block in any way.

Oh, and I do love RHE.

As always, Twitter is not a good indicator of reality.

[ 10. June 2016, 11:37: Message edited by: Og: Thread Killer ]

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I wish I was seeking justice loving mercy and walking humbly but... "Cease to lament for that thou canst not help, And study help for that which thou lament'st."

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Brenda Clough
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quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
I like Rachel Held Evans and I think if I lived in the US I'd be describing myself as post evangelical as well.

But this made me smile!

Excellent!

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Barnabas62
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See this link.

In particular, it is worth watching Joe Biden's comments.

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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?

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HCH
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This election season has made me think of some bad scenarios:

(a) Many supporters of Bernie Sanders decide not to vote at all or decide to vote for Trump and thus swing the outcome of the election.

(b) A narrow election leaves Hilary in the White House and Republicans running both houses of Congress. The Republicans decide not to confirm any federal court judges nominated by any Democrat; they can then wait for a liberal Supreme Court judge to die, giving the conservatives a 4-3 majority on the Supreme Court.

(c) A third party candidate gets enough of the vote to throw the election into the House of Representatives which will then certainly elect a Republican.

(d) The Republican party, stuck with Trump, talks him into having a vice presidential candidate who is someone they like. If Trump wins, they will then wait 90 days, impeach him (he's bound to provide plenty of grounds), convict him (aided by eager Democrats) and then have the president they want.

I think I had one or two more of these, but they slip my mind.

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Stetson
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HCH wrote:

quote:
(c) A third party candidate gets enough of the vote to throw the election into the House of Representatives which will then certainly elect a Republican.


The Libertarians will be running Gary Johnson again, with William Weld as his running mate. According to an article I read in the Economist, the polls have him taking more votes from Democrats than from Republicans, though at this point I would take any polling about their prospects with a grain of salt.

[ 10. June 2016, 16:46: Message edited by: Stetson ]

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cliffdweller
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quote:
Originally posted by HCH:
This election season has made me think of some bad scenarios:

(a) Many supporters of Bernie Sanders decide not to vote at all or decide to vote for Trump and thus swing the outcome of the election.

(b) A narrow election leaves Hilary in the White House and Republicans running both houses of Congress. The Republicans decide not to confirm any federal court judges nominated by any Democrat; they can then wait for a liberal Supreme Court judge to die, giving the conservatives a 4-3 majority on the Supreme Court.

(c) A third party candidate gets enough of the vote to throw the election into the House of Representatives which will then certainly elect a Republican.

(d) The Republican party, stuck with Trump, talks him into having a vice presidential candidate who is someone they like. If Trump wins, they will then wait 90 days, impeach him (he's bound to provide plenty of grounds), convict him (aided by eager Democrats) and then have the president they want.

I think I had one or two more of these, but they slip my mind.

All quite plausible, and of varying degrees of terrifying.

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Brenda Clough
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Did you know conservatives have an Obama prayer? You can see why church attendance is dropping like a rock.

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Prester John
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quote:
Originally posted by Og: Thread Killer:
You obviously havn't heard much North American evangelical preaching for the last 20 years.

I have. In fact some may classify me as a conservative evangelical- although I would dispute that categorization. I have a feeling that if Billy Graham had stood up and declared to a church full of liberal evangelicals that they didn't give a damn about the number of babies being aborted with the same level of arrogant certainty that Tony Campolo gave in his speech I wonder if the reaction of those praising Tony Campolo would be distinctly different. I guess there isn't a problem judging the hearts of room full of people if its someone else's ox that is being gored.
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moonlitdoor
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Since I first heard that story, I've never liked Tony Campolo. It reminds me of Warren Wynd in the Father Brown story The Miracle of Moon Crescent, who gets his comeuppance because 'he dared to know them at a glance'.

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cliffdweller
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I've heard tony many times and he really doesn't come across that way. In part because he's one of us-- a conservative evangelical. Some are of course offended but not the same way we'd feel if it were an outsider taking potshots at us

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Barnabas62
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/Campolo tangent/

I found the exact quote.

quote:
“I have three things I'd like to say today. First, while you were sleeping last night, 30,000 kids died of starvation or diseases related to malnutrition. Second, most of you don't give a shit. What's worse is that you're more upset with the fact that I said shit than the fact that 30,000 kids died last night.”
I did misquote him. What he said wasn't a universal criticism. Basically, the comment falls into "if the cap fits, wear it" category. Compared with Amos 5, addressed to analogous indifferences amongst the religious in the Northern Kingdom towards the poverty and injustice in their society, it's pretty mild stuff.


Being in an audience where the story was retold, I was one of those who did give a shit; indeed, my wife and I have been involved in third world support work, particularly focused on young children, for close on forty years now. I wasn't offended by the "most of you". I knew only too well at the time that our active engagement was a minority thing in my locality. Third world involvement was largely about support for missionary work focused on saving souls. So, based on my own experience, I felt it was probably legitimate criticism of prevailing attitudes amongst conservative evangelicals in the UK. At the very least, I hoped it would serve as a wake up call, which it certainly did at that 1982 conference.

[ 10. June 2016, 22:06: Message edited by: Barnabas62 ]

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Brenda Clough
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Donald Trump speaks at the Road to Majority conference, the convocation of right-wing religious groups held today.

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Barnabas62
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Hmm, Brenda. This quote from your link kind of cross-relates to the tangent.

quote:
The spectacle of self-proclaimed Christian conservatives cheering a foul-mouthed ex-casino owner for his pledge to turn away refugees tells you pretty much everything you need to know about what the religious right has become—or maybe what it always was.
A latter day Amos would come in handy right about now.

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Amanda B. Reckondwythe

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Meanwhile, Hillary gives us another reason to wonder if we really can support her after all.

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Golden Key
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ABR--

I skimmed through the article. I didn't see anything about Hillary *directly* approving or requesting that guy. Does it look bad? Yes, if he was put on the board only for being a donor, and his business experience, etc. wasn't a factor.

I also don't know how common it is for administration officials to give posts to donors, friends, etc. Per the news over the years, it happens, and sometimes becomes a scandal. But I don't think it's necessarily career-ending.

It may be like the private e-mail server. As I recall, there was a headline saying that the 5 previous SoS had one, too.

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Barnabas62
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Dunno, GK. It looks a bit smelly to me. I don't think it's on the same level as threatening and racially demeaning a judge, but it certainly puts a dampener on the ringing endorsements.

The ABC timing suggests they have had long term suspicions (going back to 2012) confirmed by the availability of the emails.

I'm not sure how big a deal it is. It will be interesting to see how Hillary responds.

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lilBuddha
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From the International Security Advisory Board's page on the US Dept. of State website
quote:
Board members are national security experts with scientific, military, diplomatic, and political backgrounds. (bold mine)
Political backgrounds, hmmm. American security decisions are overseen by politicians. People whose only qualification for Intelligence is the dubious intelligence of the electorate.
Not that this makes a Quid Pro Quo posting a good thing, but it isn't any real lapse in the process.

Here is the thing: If the worst of this is true, all it means is that Clinton is a typical, status quo politician. She is running true to form, hardly breaking news.

If the Ooompa Loompa runs true to form, he will squeeze the US for every penny he can, whislt running it to the ground. And America will either have to shutter its doors or sell off to its creditors. United States of China.

ETA: The ISAB referenced above is the board which this "scandal" references.
And to add that the committees making major intelligence decisions and overseeing them are largely political in composition.

[ 11. June 2016, 14:56: Message edited by: lilBuddha ]

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Martin60
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quote:
Originally posted by Prester John:
quote:
Originally posted by Og: Thread Killer:
You obviously havn't heard much North American evangelical preaching for the last 20 years.

I have. In fact some may classify me as a conservative evangelical- although I would dispute that categorization. I have a feeling that if Billy Graham had stood up and declared to a church full of liberal evangelicals that they didn't give a damn about the number of babies being aborted with the same level of arrogant certainty that Tony Campolo gave in his speech I wonder if the reaction of those praising Tony Campolo would be distinctly different. I guess there isn't a problem judging the hearts of room full of people if its someone else's ox that is being gored.
Chalk and oranges. And I'm not aware of conservative Christians doing anything to ameliorate and prevent the social causes of abortion. Far from it. Apart from harassing women, committing arson and murder of course.

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cliffdweller
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The problem for the GOP trying to flog this scandal narrative is that at this point Sec. Clinton is running neck-and-neck with Pres. Obama for the title of "most heavily scrutinized and rescrutinized politician on the planet." Seriously, at this point in time about the only thing we don't know about her is what color panties she wears on Tuesdays (and given this crowd I'm kinda surprised we don't know that). So at a certain point it's all just moot. Either you've decided she's a lying, ambitious, immoral scumbag or you've decided she's a strong woman overcoming ridiculous sexism. No one's going to move from those poles one way or another.

Trump, otoh, has had virtually no vetting and we're hearing some new low (some from investigations, but most coming out of his own mouth) pretty much every day.

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Amanda B. Reckondwythe

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Meanwhile, Trump calls himself "the least racist person" on earth while continuing to refer to Senator Elizabeth Warren as "Pocahontas," even eliciting war whoops from his audience.

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mousethief

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quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
I'm not aware of conservative Christians doing anything to ameliorate and prevent the social causes of abortion. Far from it. Apart from harassing women, committing arson and murder of course.

And making it illegal to have a miscarriage.

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Martin60
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quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
I'm not aware of conservative Christians doing anything to ameliorate and prevent the social causes of abortion. Far from it. Apart from harassing women, committing arson and murder of course.

And making it illegal to have a miscarriage.
Aye, theoretically in Utah and all too Godlessly real in the ironically named El Salvador.

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mousethief

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Aye.

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Barnabas62
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quote:
Originally posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe:
Meanwhile, Trump calls himself "the least racist person" on earth while continuing to refer to Senator Elizabeth Warren as "Pocahontas," even eliciting war whoops from his audience.

I'm sure the GOP establishment must be in despair. Loved this quote from that linked article.

quote:
“Get used to it,” said Republican pollster Whit Ayres, a Trump critic. “This is your life for the next five months.”
And Megyn Kelly of Fox News(!) sticks the knife in re the attack on the judge.

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Brenda Clough
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There is a reason, I just know it, why Trump is so very reluctant to release his tax returns. I hope he will be pressured into doing so before the election, because I am certain there are some nasty skeletons in them.

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Hedgehog

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quote:
Originally posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe:
Meanwhile, Trump calls himself "the least racist person" on earth while continuing to refer to Senator Elizabeth Warren as "Pocahontas," even eliciting war whoops from his audience.

It has been my experience that racists never think of themselves as racist.

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mousethief

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quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
There is a reason, I just know it, why Trump is so very reluctant to release his tax returns. I hope he will be pressured into doing so before the election, because I am certain there are some nasty skeletons in them.

I heard someone say the reason he doesn't want to release them is that he hardly made any money (like, in the neighborhood of half a million) and is embarrassed by that.

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