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Source: (consider it) Thread: Purgatory: U.S. Presidential Election 2016
Barnabas62
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I had a really good laugh last night. I occasionally sample Fox News to get the "idiosyncratic" view they put out about US affairs and last night I watched the Kelly file.

Following some discussion with other talking heads about the need to reset Trump's campaign and get him "on message" the programme showed tome excerpts from the Donald's latest knockabout speech. In which he kept on message for about 5 minutes, then went off script and revisited many of his other controversial remarks. Including those he'd made about Megyn Kelly herself. The programme then switched back to a view of Megyn Kelly with her head in her hands.

In the resulting discussion, I came across the phrase "non-Fox news". By which Megyn and the other talking heads meant all the other news outlets, all of whom were characterised as liberal, all wishing to destroy Trump's candidacy, with only Fox "playing fair". Now that was pretty weird.

But what made it weirder was Megyn Kelly's despairing observation that "all that was true" about the "non-Fox media", "but he keeps supplying them with fresh ammunition to shoot him down!"

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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?

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la vie en rouge
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While there is clearly something very wrong with Donald Trump, I don’t think there’s any reason to suppose a brain tumour or dementia or the like. Let’s face it, he’s been like this for pretty much as long as anyone remembers. He’s just never had the chance to play out his dysfunction on such a grand scale before.

Obviously he’ll never submit to any kind of psychological/psychiatric evaluation so chances are we’ll never know for sure, but it looks to most observers like he has a raging personality disorder. I’m not sure a physical examination would show that up. This makes me wonder, actually – if it’s considered appropriate to make someone have a physical before allowing them to assume the role of President of the United States, would it be wrong to say you have to have a psychological examination as well? I wonder what Il Duce would do if got elected and was then disbarred on the grounds of certifiable insanity./musing

In other news, Will Smith is my new favourite political commentator:

quote:
My grandmother would have smacked my teeth out of my head if I had referred to a woman as a fat pig[…] If one of my sons – I am getting furious just thinking about it – if one of my sons said that in a public place, they couldn’t even live in my house any more.
I love how he gives the lie to “political correctness” by saying his grandma would have been appalled.

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Eutychus
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quote:
Originally posted by la vie en rouge:
I wonder what Il Duce would do if got elected and was then disbarred on the grounds of certifiable insanity./musing

See above. He can object, in which case it's up to Congress to decide.

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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy

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Robert Armin

All licens'd fool
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quote:
Originally posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe:
quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
God has lifted His hand from America, but Trump will get it back.

He should only get it back slapped firmly across his sinful mouth.
[Overused]

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Keeping fit was an obsession with Fr Moity .... He did chin ups in the vestry, calisthenics in the pulpit, and had developed a series of Tai-Chi exercises to correspond with ritual movements of the Mass. The Antipope Robert Rankin

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romanlion
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Tangential to the thread but I thought it was worth posting...

Thank you Mr. Obama. Well done.

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"You can't get rich in politics unless you're a crook" - Harry S. Truman

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Nick Tamen

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quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
If he is unaware and can't be sworn in, then the United States will be without a president.

Wouldn't there simply be a default to the incoming VP?
I believe then it goes to the House of Representatives, who vote on who will be the president.
It only goes the House of Representatives if there is no winner in the electoral college. If a president-elect becomes incapacitated after the electoral college has met and the votes have been counted by Congress but before the inauguration, then the vice-president elect becomes president. It not quite as clear what happens if the incapacity occurs between voting by the electoral college and certification by Congress, but it seems the result would likely be the same.

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The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. — Anne Lamott

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Brenda Clough
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As somebody said upthread, Trump has always been this way. What you see is what you get, for at least the past quarter-century. None of this stuff is new. The GOP knew what was in the basket. They bought it anyway, driven by a crass desire to win at any cost and a resolute pushing of heads under the sand. They have sold their souls for a mess of orange-colored pottage.

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Crœsos
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quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
Not only has Trump refused to release his tax returns, he has refused to have a physical. He has said nothing about a blind trust for his holdings that I can recall.
He seems to feel he is above all these things.

It looks, even from 3,000 miles away, like he is unaware of the terms of the presidency. If he is unaware and can't be sworn in, then the United States will be without a president.
Wouldn't there simply be a default to the incoming VP?
I believe then it goes to the House of Representatives, who vote on who will be the president.
This gets back to my earlier post about the U.S. constitutional system's reliance on norms of behavior. There's no actual legal requirement for a presidential candidate to release his tax returns, or undergo a medical exam prior to assuming office, or to place his business holdings in a blind trust (though he does have to declare what his business holdings are if he wins the presidency). Those aren't really "the terms of the presidency". They're just norms of good governance that have developed in the post-war years.

So what happens if a candidate receives a majority of electoral votes and it is discovered that he does actually violate "the terms of the presidency". Let's say the Universe is feeling extra ironic and it comes out sometime after Election Day that president-elect Donald Trump is not actually "a natural born Citizen". [Snigger] What happens then?

If it happens between November 8, 2016 and December 19, 2016 (when the electoral college meets), not much is changed. Electors will cast their ballots for someone other than the disqualified candidate (probably the running mate) and a new president is elected. If it happens between December 19, 2016 and January 6, 2017 (when Congress meets to certify the electoral vote), that's when things get interesting. In that case no (valid) candidate will have a majority of electoral votes and the presidency would be decided by a contingent election in the House of Representatives, who are restricted to pick a president "from the persons having the highest numbers [of electoral votes] not exceeding three on the list of those voted for as President". So only the top 3 electoral vote-getters are allowable in this scenario, meaning that unless Gary Johnson was very lucky the House's only choice would be Hillary Clinton. An added twist is that in a contingent election the House of Representatives votes in state caucuses, so it's 1 state = 1 vote, not 1 Representative = 1 vote.

So what happens if the disqualification is discovered or happens between the certification of the electoral vote on January 6, 2017 and the start of the new president's term on January 20, 2017? The Constitution doesn't explicitly cover this, but it seems likely that the succession of the newly elected Vice President would be the solution called for.

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Humani nil a me alienum puto

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Og: Thread Killer
Ship's token CN Mennonite
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quote:
Originally posted by romanlion:
Tangential to the thread but I thought it was worth posting...

Thank you Mr. Obama. Well done.

Good on him. Waste of money keeping people in longer then they would if convicted today.

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I wish I was seeking justice loving mercy and walking humbly but... "Cease to lament for that thou canst not help, And study help for that which thou lament'st."

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Nick Tamen

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quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:
If it happens between December 19, 2016 and January 6, 2017 (when Congress meets to certify the electoral vote), that's when things get interesting. In that case no (valid) candidate will have a majority of electoral votes and the presidency would be decided by a contingent election in the House of Representatives . . . .

From what I've read, this isn't necessarily clear. There seems to be a split of interpretation, which some taking the position that the candidate becomes President elect when the electoral votes are cast, and others taking the position that the candidate doesn't become President elect until the votes are counted in Congress. Per the FAQ page for the National Archives' site for the Electoral College:
quote:
As to a candidate who dies or becomes incapacitated between the meeting of electors and the counting of electoral votes in Congress, the Constitution is silent on whether this candidate meets the definition of “President elect” or “Vice President elect.” If the candidate with a majority of the electoral votes is considered “President elect,” even before the counting of electoral votes in Congress, Section 3 of the 20th Amendment applies. Section 3 of the 20th Amendment states that the Vice President elect will become President if the President elect dies or becomes incapacitated.
This Arkansas Law Review article (reprinted at Yale) says:
quote:
What happens if, God forbid, the person who wins the general election in November and the electoral college tally in December dies before the electoral college votes are officially counted in Congress in January? If the decedent can be considered "the President elect" within the meaning of the Twentieth Amendment, then the rules would be clear, but it is not self-evident that a person who dies before the official counting of electoral votes in Congress is formally the "President elect." Both Article II and the Twelfth Amendment seem to focus on the formal counting of votes in the Congress as the magic, formal moment of vesting in which the winning candidate is elected as "President." Although the legislative history of the Twentieth Amendment suggests that the electoral college winner is "President elect" the moment the electoral college votes are cast, and before they are counted in Congress, the text of the Amendment fails to say this explicitly. In the absence of such explicit language, some might argue that the formal vesting rules of Article II and the Twelfth Amendment remain in effect, and that the Twentieth Amendment term "President elect" does not apply to death prior to formal vote-counting in Congress. (So too, the argument might run, the legislative history of the Twentieth Amendment plainly says that electoral votes will be counted in, and electoral college deadlocks will be resolved by, the incoming Congress, rather than the lame duck Congress; however, the text of the Amendment does not explicitly require this.)
(Footnotes have been omitted.)

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The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. — Anne Lamott

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Leorning Cniht
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quote:
Originally posted by la vie en rouge:
I love how he gives the lie to “political correctness” by saying his grandma would have been appalled.

Not calling a woman a fat pig is old-fashioned politeness and chivalry. Would his grandmother have been similarly appalled had he called a man a "fat pig"?

Surely the "politically correct" action is to use the same kind of language about a female political opponent as you would use about a male political opponent?

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Brenda Clough
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All right, I'll say it: Donald Trump is a fat pig.

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lilBuddha
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He is, however is fatness has naught to do with his incredible unsuitability for office.
There is sooooooooooooooo many relevant things to ridicule him with, body shaming need not enter into it.

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Amanda B. Reckondwythe

Dressed for Church
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quote:
Originally posted by la vie en rouge:
I love how he gives the lie to “political correctness” by saying his grandma would have been appalled.

His grandperson of indeterminate gender would have been appalled too, I'm sure.

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"I take prayer too seriously to use it as an excuse for avoiding work and responsibility." -- The Revd Martin Luther King Jr.

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Eutychus
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Are these visa problems anything significant?

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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy

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Brenda Clough
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However I think it will always be correct to slam Donald for his tiny hands. And -all- that implies.

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Callan
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Originally posted by la vie en rouge:

quote:
Obviously he’ll never submit to any kind of psychological/psychiatric evaluation so chances are we’ll never know for sure, but it looks to most observers like he has a raging personality disorder.
I think that "personality disorder" is one of those terms that means that someone does not have the usual set of emotional responses but doesn't have anything tangible we can pin it on. I've seen it used to describe people as varied as serial killers to difficult old ladies.

In Trump's case, I think that he has acquired power without attaining some sort of relevant discipline. In Jurassic Park, at one point Ian Malcolm explains that usually, to acquire power, one has to submit oneself to some sort of discipline to acquire it and this discipline means that when one acquires power one will not use it in obviously self-destructive ways. If one studies the martial arts and becomes a black belt in Karate, one will not then get into an argument with an old lady at a bus stop and end up breaking all her bones. Malcolm's point is that the proprietor of Jurassic Park has not gone through this process and has, therefore, created an unsustainable system which currently leaves them being menaced by hungry velociraptors.

Generally, in a democracy, one goes through a process where one learns to be a politician by working one's way up the ranks. This teaches one a certain amount of humility. You have to persuade people to support you, to build coalitions, to ignore insults, to smile at people you rather dislike and to accept that you can't win all your battles. Trump has come from nowhere. If you go back to the OP there is a list of Republican candidates, which doesn't include Trump but does include the line "did I miss anyone" to which the response, with the benefit of 20/20 hindsight is "Ooh, now you mention it..." So Trump has gone from not being on the radar to being "THE REPUBLICAN CANDIDATE FOR THE PRESIDENCY OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA". And nothing in his past life will have given him the relevant skill set either. He's a billionaire who inherited his wealth and has probably spent his life dealing with people who flattered him or fawned before him.

By dint of the uselessness of the Republican field he has soared to a point of eminence and is now up against someone who is actually quite good. The only weapon in his armoury is bluster which isn't really going to cut it in a debate about who gets custody of the big red button for the nest four years. So, basically, he's out of his depth. God forbid that time, chance and a constitutional amendment with regards to the whole national born citizen thing ever makes me a candidate for the US Presidency but, candidly, if it did ever happen picking a fight with a baby would probably be the least of my worries. It's a really difficult job, being a Presidential candidate, and it's supposed to be, it's a try out for an impossible job, President of the US and leader of the free world. If a political party appoints someone who is not up to the job as their Top Person - side eye at a social democratic party in northern Europe - they will get found out. This is now happening to Donald Trump, in spades. And all that he can do its rant about it.

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How easy it would be to live in England, if only one did not love her. - G.K. Chesterton

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lilBuddha
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quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
However I think it will always be correct to slam Donald for his tiny hands. And -all- that implies.

sigh Though it is fun to impugn his manhood, it is his minuscule grip on sanity which is his worst trait.

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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou

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lilBuddha
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quote:
Originally posted by Callan:
Trump has come from nowhere.

As far as his experience, yes.
But his popularity is the natural result of years of Republican politics. He is just the bare-faced version of their dog-whistle rhetoric. They created the anger, the fear in a base of supporters willing to vote against their own benefit for impossible promises.

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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou

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chris stiles
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quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:
Originally posted by Callan:
Trump has come from nowhere.

As far as his experience, yes.
But his popularity is the natural result of years of Republican politics. He is just the bare-faced version of their dog-whistle rhetoric. They created the anger, the fear in a base of supporters willing to vote against their own benefit for impossible promises.

I tend to agree - the bigotry and xenophobia are nothing new, similarly impugning opponents patriotism (see Max Cleland, John Kerry etc). Trump just ran with the same set of tactics and turned them up to 11, in that sense he has less utility to the Republican elite.

and talk of personality disorders just serve to obscure that he is a total shite who refuses to take personal responsibility for his actions and should never be put anywhere near power.

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Barnabas62
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quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
Are these visa problems anything significant?

I have a feeling that there will be an endless stream of stories about questionable past events and behaviour re Trump and his family. The media (apart from Faux News of course) are going to have a field day.

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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?

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rolyn
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Yep, and judging by the way this dude thrives on negative attention it will play right into his power hungry little hands.

Just like brexit, attack and give it impetus, don't attack it and risk having it slither in unopposed.

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Change is the only certainty of existence

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Golden Key
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quote:
Originally posted by Callan:
Trump has come from nowhere.

Not really. He's been a celebrity in the US for decades--magnified by hosting "The Apprentice" reality show. That gives him name and facial recognition, and "what will the Donald say next".

He's also been messing around with the possibility of running for president for a long time.

Ronald Reagan, actor, was both governor and president--and celebrity status was probably a big factor. Other celebrities in politics include Clint Eastwood, Sonny Bono, and Al Franken.

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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")

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Golden Key
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# 1468

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quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
However I think it will always be correct to slam Donald for his tiny hands. And -all- that implies.

I haven't really understood why such a fuss is made about his hands. (And yes, I know the implications.) His hands are something that he can't help. (But maybe his hair...though there've been some days when it's looked normal, and even good.)

Interesting thing about hand size: I was reading comments on an article about Trump. People mentioned his hands. Then someone spoke up and said that short fingers are a fairly common Scottish trait, and that he himself has them. Trump's mother was from Scotland.

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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")

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Brenda Clough
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It only became an issue because he himself made it an issue, in the debates. It is not anyone else who has drawn the analogy from hand size to any other body part, but he himself. And that's why it's appropriate to ding him with it, now and forever.

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rolyn
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quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
. Other celebrities in politics include Clint Eastwood, Sonny Bono, and Al Franken.

...and not forgetting Arnie.
Anyone remember calls a long while back re. Ollie North for President? Bit of of a bad boy as I recall, but then we do have a penchant for looking up to 'bad' people, cos they're nice really .

When it comes to actors, and were I an American citizen, Clint would get my vote.

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Change is the only certainty of existence

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Hedgehog

Ship's Shortstop
# 14125

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quote:
Originally posted by Callan:
Trump has come from nowhere. If you go back to the OP there is a list of Republican candidates, which doesn't include Trump but does include the line "did I miss anyone" to which the response, with the benefit of 20/20 hindsight is "Ooh, now you mention it..."

By coincidence, yesterday I was researching when Trump's name first came up on this thread. Technically it is true that he was not listed on the OP, but the OP was posted on 5 November, 2014, and the first reference to Trump's possible presidential ambitions is made on 6 November, 2014. To wit:
quote:
The highest profile person to make an issue of this was Donald Trump who frequently makes a big deal about possibly running for president in order to gin up interest in The Apprentice.

Admittedly, the discussion of Trump-as-a-real-Candidate doesn't gear up in earnest until 3 June 2015.

[Edit for spacing problems--I space out easily]

[ 04. August 2016, 22:02: Message edited by: Hedgehog ]

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"We must regain the conviction that we need one another, that we have a shared responsibility for others and the world, and that being good and decent are worth it."--Pope Francis, Laudato Si'

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Golden Key
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# 1468

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quote:
Originally posted by rolyn:
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
Other celebrities in politics include Clint Eastwood, Sonny Bono, and Al Franken.

...and not forgetting Arnie.

LOL. I actually blocked him out. He became governor, here in California, after the previous governor lost a recall election. I did not like him as governor.

Thankfully, the move to ditch the "a president must be a natural born citizen" rule didn't get much traction in Congress. Otherwise, Arnold might be in the White House. They wanted to change the rule specifically so *he* could run.

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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")

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Brenda Clough
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If you go over to the Washington POST site now, and look at the Opinion articles, the first four are:
This 30-second video is absolutely devastating for Donald Trump, By Greg Sargent
Trump backers criticize their candidate — on the record, by Jennifer Rubin
The unbearable stench of Trump’s B.S., By Fareed Zakaria, and
Trump’s shallowness runs deep, By George F. Will

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lilBuddha
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quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
It only became an issue because he himself made it an issue, in the debates. It is not anyone else who has drawn the analogy from hand size to any other body part, but he himself. And that's why it's appropriate to ding him with it, now and forever.

Actually, Rubio did.

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cliffdweller
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quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
It only became an issue because he himself made it an issue, in the debates. It is not anyone else who has drawn the analogy from hand size to any other body part, but he himself. And that's why it's appropriate to ding him with it, now and forever.

Actually, Rubio did.
Yes. And Trump, instead of pointing out how ridiculous Rubio was for bringing it up, took the bait and argued the point. To the point that it became a major talking point between the two in a
presidential debate, with Tump asserting that the part in question was "huge." I am forever grateful that he somehow refrained from stripping down to demonstrate.

The entire platform-- can't remember exactly how many clowns were still in the race at that point-- jumped in to debate the "size" issue. Only Kasich refrained, over in the corner futilely pleading to be allowed to discuss foreign policy, economic policy, anything other than the size of Donald's junk.

If SNL had done this in a parody sketch we would all have said it was too over the top. But no, we all saw it live on prime-time TV. This has been the sort of election the GOP is running.

[ 04. August 2016, 23:36: Message edited by: cliffdweller ]

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Og: Thread Killer
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Its still 3 months. A lot can happen before then. But, the Dems seem to have been on point about Trump being unsuitable to be President.

In essence

Its the stupidity, stupid.

On another note, I was reading something today about how Fox was now calling media apart from them "Non-Fox News sources". That will fit in well with the whole paranoia thing people there got going.

Reports are also coming out that "bullshit mountain" no longer cares for Trump's type of bs, now that Trump's main enabler is no longer in charge.

I also saw some speculation today that the old guard of Republicans would prefer to see Trump go completely down in flames so they can repudiate Trumpism completely.

Again...early days and given only 10 days ago polls said something completely different, all of this can and probably will change.

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simontoad
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# 18096

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quote:
Originally posted by la vie en rouge:
While there is clearly something very wrong with Donald Trump, I don’t think there’s any reason to suppose a brain tumour or dementia or the like. Let’s face it, he’s been like this for pretty much as long as anyone remembers. He’s just never had the chance to play out his dysfunction on such a grand scale before.

That is quite funny. It's so funny, that I forgot to read the rest of the thread before posting my appreciation.
[Killing me]

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mousethief

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# 953

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quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
Thankfully, the move to ditch the "a president must be a natural born citizen" rule didn't get much traction in Congress. Otherwise, Arnold might be in the White House. They wanted to change the rule specifically so *he* could run.

Although, would his presidency have been worse than GB2?

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lilBuddha
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quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
Thankfully, the move to ditch the "a president must be a natural born citizen" rule didn't get much traction in Congress. Otherwise, Arnold might be in the White House. They wanted to change the rule specifically so *he* could run.

Although, would his presidency have been worse than GB2?
Hard to say. By the time anyone was considering him running, the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq were already running. Would he have tried to end them?

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mousethief

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quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
By the time anyone was considering him running, the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq were already running. Would he have tried to end them?

Also hard to say.

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mdijon
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quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:
This gets back to my earlier post about the U.S. constitutional system's reliance on norms of behavior.

I must say it all seems much more carefully worked out than the equivalent UK system where it would probably be made up on the hoof.

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la vie en rouge
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quote:
Originally posted by rolyn:

When it comes to actors, and were I an American citizen, Clint would get my vote.

Presumably you don’t realise Mr Eastwood has been saying some pretty unpleasant things himself.

Clint, the reason you didn’t get called a racist for saying that stuff 60 years ago is that in those days a racist was a socially acceptable thing to be (among white people, anyways). [Disappointed]

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Callan
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quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
quote:
Originally posted by Callan:
Trump has come from nowhere.

Not really. He's been a celebrity in the US for decades--magnified by hosting "The Apprentice" reality show. That gives him name and facial recognition, and "what will the Donald say next".

He's also been messing around with the possibility of running for president for a long time.

Ronald Reagan, actor, was both governor and president--and celebrity status was probably a big factor. Other celebrities in politics include Clint Eastwood, Sonny Bono, and Al Franken.

But none of them wen't from being a celebrity to a Presidential Candidate with no stops in-between. Clint was Mayor of Carmel, Sonny was Mayor of Palm Springs and a Congressman, Al is, IIRC, a US Senator. Reagan was a Governor, then a defeated Presidential Candidate, then President. Before being elected Governor he worked on other peoples campaigns. So when he ran in 1980, he knew how this stuff worked, which levers, when pulled delivered which outcomes, that sort of thing. None of this is true of Trump, whose previous experience consists of an abortive bid for the Presidency in 2000 and various hints that he might run subsequently - messing around, as you so aptly put it. So he's getting a really fast initiation into being The Presidential Candidate.

My point is not that he's gone from being obscure to being famous. He's gone from being famous to being one election away from being the ruler of the most powerful state on the planet and without having, or having taken, the opportunity to learn any of the necessary skills to do so.

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Barnabas62
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# 9110

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Another mistake - or lie

Callan, this analysis and this one make me shudder even more than his lack of political experience.

[ 05. August 2016, 08:43: Message edited by: Barnabas62 ]

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chris stiles
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quote:
Originally posted by Og: Thread Killer:

I also saw some speculation today that the old guard of Republicans would prefer to see Trump go completely down in flames so they can repudiate Trumpism completely.

I think this is magnificent spin, but just that. As other people have pointed out above, the Republicans have long included elements of xenophobia/bigotry as part of their platform. I think the problem they are facing is that they've been outflanked on the right by a demagogue and these subjects are not useful in defeating him.

They were able to outflank the Democrats by yelling that they'd execute 10 immigrants a day (or whatever) and are now in the position where they are up against someone who sounds like he really means it.

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Al Eluia

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quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
Yes. And Trump, instead of pointing out how ridiculous Rubio was for bringing it up, took the bait and argued the point.

This is one of the biggest things about Trump's temperament that disqualifies him in my mind. He is so easy to bait, so thin-skinned. Not the kind of person we want to entrust with nuclear codes, as HRC so aptly pointed out in her convention speech. (I have issues with HRC too, but she's far preferable to Mr. Tiny Hands.)

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Og: Thread Killer
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quote:
Originally posted by chris stiles:
quote:
Originally posted by Og: Thread Killer:

I also saw some speculation today that the old guard of Republicans would prefer to see Trump go completely down in flames so they can repudiate Trumpism completely.

I think this is magnificent spin, but just that. As other people have pointed out above, the Republicans have long included elements of xenophobia/bigotry as part of their platform. I think the problem they are facing is that they've been outflanked on the right by a demagogue and these subjects are not useful in defeating him.

They were able to outflank the Democrats by yelling that they'd execute 10 immigrants a day (or whatever) and are now in the position where they are up against someone who sounds like he really means it.

I would differentiate Trumpism from the domestic dog whistling, if only by degree. (Was the House or Senate Republican ledership suggesting they would execute immigrants?)

Trumpism, like the Tea Party which allowed him to rise, believes in disgust and anger above all that can only be soothed by a vision of some sort.

Traditional Republicanism at least knows you can't go around using Nukes and trusting Russia.

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I wish I was seeking justice loving mercy and walking humbly but... "Cease to lament for that thou canst not help, And study help for that which thou lament'st."

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Brenda Clough
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A guy who was the director of the CIA has an op-ed piece in today's NY Times. The salient quote:
"The dangers that flow from Mr. Trump’s character are not just risks that would emerge if he became president. It is already damaging our national security.

President Vladimir V. Putin of Russia was a career intelligence officer, trained to identify vulnerabilities in an individual and to exploit them. That is exactly what he did early in the primaries. Mr. Putin played upon Mr. Trump’s vulnerabilities by complimenting him. He responded just as Mr. Putin had calculated."

That's why Trump is scary. He's so easily manipulated.

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mousethief

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Being myself someone who is thin-skinned and easy to bait, I wouldn't trust myself in such an important office. And Trump is a master at this character flaw, while I'm just an apprentice.

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Og: Thread Killer
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# 3200

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quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
A guy who was the director of the CIA has an op-ed piece in today's NY Times...

It should be noted the guy works now for a consulting firm tied to Clinton, as gawker pointed out. .

Not saying what he says isn't true, just this is campaign time and he's not exactly a neutral.

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I wish I was seeking justice loving mercy and walking humbly but... "Cease to lament for that thou canst not help, And study help for that which thou lament'st."

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mousethief

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quote:
Originally posted by Og: Thread Killer:
quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
A guy who was the director of the CIA has an op-ed piece in today's NY Times...

It should be noted the guy works now for a consulting firm tied to Clinton, as gawker pointed out. .

Not saying what he says isn't true, just this is campaign time and he's not exactly a neutral.

Of course it may be that he took the position in this consulting firm exactly because he had the sentiments he refers to in this article.

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lilBuddha
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Regardless of partisanship, that is not a conclusion that calls for a rockert surgeon

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RuthW

liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13

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The reporter Graydon Carter coined the insult about Trump's hands:
quote:
Just to drive him a little bit crazy, I took to referring to him as a “short-fingered vulgarian” in the pages of Spy magazine. That was more than a quarter of a century ago. To this day, I receive the occasional envelope from Trump. There is always a photo of him—generally a tear sheet from a magazine. On all of them he has circled his hand in gold Sharpie in a valiant effort to highlight the length of his fingers. I almost feel sorry for the poor fellow because, to me, the fingers still look abnormally stubby. The most recent offering arrived earlier this year, before his decision to go after the Republican presidential nomination. Like the other packages, this one included a circled hand and the words, also written in gold Sharpie: “See, not so short!” I sent the picture back by return mail with a note attached, saying, “Actually, quite short.” Which I can only assume gave him fits.

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Brenda Clough
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From the Guardian, psychological analysis of Trump. Whatever else you can say about his pathologies, the man is a fascinating psychological study.

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