homepage
  roll on christmas  
click here to find out more about ship of fools click here to sign up for the ship of fools newsletter click here to support ship of fools
community the mystery worshipper gadgets for god caption competition foolishness features ship stuff
discussion boards live chat cafe avatars frequently-asked questions the ten commandments gallery private boards register for the boards
 
Ship of Fools
Thread closed  Thread closed


Post new thread  
Thread closed  Thread closed
My profile login | | Directory | Search | FAQs | Board home
   - Printer-friendly view Next oldest thread   Next newest thread
» Ship of Fools   » Ship's Locker   » Limbo   » Purgatory: U.S. Presidential Election 2016 (Page 98)

 - Email this page to a friend or enemy.  
Pages in this thread: 1  2  3  ...  95  96  97  98  99  100  101  ...  138  139  140 
 
Source: (consider it) Thread: Purgatory: U.S. Presidential Election 2016
no prophet's flag is set so...

Proceed to see sea
# 15560

 - Posted      Profile for no prophet's flag is set so...   Author's homepage   Email no prophet's flag is set so...   Send new private message       Edit/delete post 
The Canadian press has this from Andrew Coyne, a highly respected reporter, even if I don't generally like or agree with him: We Are Staring Into the Abyss of a Trump Presidency

quote:
<That this election> is even close is something of a calamity, a victory for all that is dark and barbaric in the American character.... Are the roots of Trump to be found in the coarsening of the culture, the celebrification of everything, the degradation of knowledge or civility in the age of social media, when everyone with access to a computer thinks he knows all there is to know about anything?
I don't like to speculate about things I don't understand, but the view from here seems to be the end of civil society, violence in the offing. Is it now despair, and hunker down, trying to stay out of the way of this maniac?

--------------------
Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/

Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010  |  IP: Logged
Graven Image
Shipmate
# 8755

 - Posted      Profile for Graven Image   Email Graven Image   Send new private message       Edit/delete post 
This is the first election where I am having a lot of trouble feeling okay about friends who are supporting a different candidate. Always before it was oh well we will agree to disagree, and it is good to have the tension there to work out the best answer.

Now that has changed. I have some long time friends who are wildly in favor of Trump and hang on his every word and are so angry and I think afraid of "them" taking away their freedom and country that I simply do not want to be around them. I find they make me feel sad, and drain the life out of me. I believe that our relationships will never be the same again. I do not argue with them I just listen and feel very very sad about what is happening to this country.

Posts: 2641 | From: Third planet from the sun. USA | Registered: Nov 2004  |  IP: Logged
lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333

 - Posted      Profile for lilBuddha     Send new private message       Edit/delete post 
quote:
Originally posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe:
But the audience may egg him on to say stupider and stupider things, which will put Hillary in a better and better light. Especially since she's a skilled lawyer who, I'm sure, knows how to cross-examine.

Logic and reason will not win this. If those things were a main factor, Trump would not have won the nomination, much less have good numbers right now.

--------------------
I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou

Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008  |  IP: Logged
Boogie

Boogie on down!
# 13538

 - Posted      Profile for Boogie     Send new private message       Edit/delete post 
quote:
Originally posted by Graven Image:
I have some long time friends who are wildly in favor of Trump and hang on his every word and are so angry and I think afraid of "them" taking away their freedom and country that I simply do not want to be around them.

I wonder where this fear comes from?

In a free and tolerant country like the USA it's very hard to see why some are in such fear.

They need to read this.

I felt the same way about friends who voted for Brexit. It must be a million times worse having Trump supporters as friends - I can't imagine it. Are they generally very low intelligence, if I may ask such a question?

[fixed link]

[ 18. September 2016, 21:37: Message edited by: Marvin the Martian ]

--------------------
Garden. Room. Walk

Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008  |  IP: Logged
Graven Image
Shipmate
# 8755

 - Posted      Profile for Graven Image   Email Graven Image   Send new private message       Edit/delete post 
Boogie asked,
quote:
It must be a million times worse having Trump supporters as friends - I can't imagine it. Are they generally very low intelligence, if I may ask such a question?
These people clearly do not seem of low intelligence but do tend to be non college graduates who work in middle income jobs such as plumbers, mechanic, and shop keepers. They see themselves as very patriotic and raise the flag on high. Any meeting seems to start with a pledge to the flag. I retired to a rural area so we have farmers in the mix.

They look after their neighbors, and most often vote conservative and listen to Fox News. They clearly do think life as they know it is in great danger. They tend to think higher education can make a person uppity as they say. Others who live in the area tend to be artists, and authors, or professionals who have retired in the area or commute to jobs in the city. These people tend to be liberal. Everyone is active in the community. Up until this election there was an easy mix of the two groups. We were all neighbors working to make our community a good place to live.

It seems Trump has given some permission to express aloud their fear and anger of others that before was not talked about in public. It has shocked me to hear their raciest remarks, although I was aware of their sexist attitudes.

Posts: 2641 | From: Third planet from the sun. USA | Registered: Nov 2004  |  IP: Logged
Boogie

Boogie on down!
# 13538

 - Posted      Profile for Boogie     Send new private message       Edit/delete post 
So sorry to hear this Graven Image - it must be happening up and down the USA.

Travel would help them lose many of their fears, but I don't imagine they see any need to broaden their horizons.

[Frown]

--------------------
Garden. Room. Walk

Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008  |  IP: Logged
Pigwidgeon

Ship's Owl
# 10192

 - Posted      Profile for Pigwidgeon   Author's homepage     Send new private message       Edit/delete post 
Today's Doonesbury comic strip offers a wonderful -- and scary -- metaphor.

(After today this link will take you to whatever the current day's strip is.)

--------------------
"...that is generally a matter for Pigwidgeon, several other consenting adults, a bottle of cheap Gin and the odd giraffe."
~Tortuf

Posts: 9835 | From: Hogwarts | Registered: Aug 2005  |  IP: Logged
cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338

 - Posted      Profile for cliffdweller     Send new private message       Edit/delete post 
quote:
Originally posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe:
But the audience may egg him on to say stupider and stupider things, which will put Hillary in a better and better light. Especially since she's a skilled lawyer who, I'm sure, knows how to cross-examine.

Although cross-examination is really the role of the moderator, who may or may not allow Hillary to ask questions and may or may not hold The Donald's feet to the fire to answer them. We've seen how very much of a difference it makes who the moderator is. (And of course, if the moderator doesn't bend over backwards to mollify Donald and put him in a good light, as we've seen, he's just go into one of his toddler temper tantrums and refuse to participate. That's sorta his thing).

Perhaps Hillary's best strategy is to simply sit back and say very little (not her strong suit) and let Donald hang himself. His own words are far more damning than anything his worst enemy could say about him.

Which is really the fundamental problem with Trump's candidacy. He is so ridiculously unqualified, so morally bankrupt, that, yes, it makes it easy to run against him. But that's the problem. The reason for a competitive two-party system is to demand more of our elected officials. Competition, at it's best, draws out excellence, forces us to dig deep and work hard and be better than we knew we could be. But when there's no real competition, we don't have to change. The status quo (and yes, Hillary is a status quo candidate) is good enough when the alternative is complete and utter chaos. We deserve better.

--------------------
"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner

Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008  |  IP: Logged
Soror Magna
Shipmate
# 9881

 - Posted      Profile for Soror Magna   Email Soror Magna   Send new private message       Edit/delete post 
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
...
I wonder where this fear comes from?...

The shocking realization that being white and male no longer guarantees a spot at the front of the line. What's the world coming to when an uppity black man can become president and an intelligent, experienced, well-qualified woman dares to challenge an ignorant, unqualified, narcissistic white man?

--------------------
"You come with me to room 1013 over at the hospital, I'll show you America. Terminal, crazy and mean." -- Tony Kushner, "Angels in America"

Posts: 5430 | From: Caprica City | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged
quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740

 - Posted      Profile for quetzalcoatl   Email quetzalcoatl   Send new private message       Edit/delete post 
quote:
Originally posted by Soror Magna:
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
...
I wonder where this fear comes from?...

The shocking realization that being white and male no longer guarantees a spot at the front of the line. What's the world coming to when an uppity black man can become president and an intelligent, experienced, well-qualified woman dares to challenge an ignorant, unqualified, narcissistic white man?
Yes, the more I read all this 'Clinton is ill and doddery' shit, the more I'm thinking misogyny, misogyny, misogyny. It reeks.

--------------------
I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.

Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011  |  IP: Logged
Horseman Bree
Shipmate
# 5290

 - Posted      Profile for Horseman Bree   Email Horseman Bree   Send new private message       Edit/delete post 
quote:
Are they generally very low intelligence, if I may ask such a question?
Having seen this quote, I was reading down to post, and Soror answered for me.

The only thing to add is that intelligence is no guarantee of not being racist, homophobic or just plain stupid. Extremely intelligent people are just as capable of idiotic beliefs as are any (pejorative of your choice).

--------------------
It's Not That Simple

Posts: 5372 | From: more herring choker than bluenose | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Sober Preacher's Kid

Presbymethegationalist
# 12699

 - Posted      Profile for Sober Preacher's Kid   Email Sober Preacher's Kid   Send new private message       Edit/delete post 
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
The Canadian press has this from Andrew Coyne, a highly respected reporter, even if I don't generally like or agree with him: We Are Staring Into the Abyss of a Trump Presidency

quote:
<That this election> is even close is something of a calamity, a victory for all that is dark and barbaric in the American character.... Are the roots of Trump to be found in the coarsening of the culture, the celebrification of everything, the degradation of knowledge or civility in the age of social media, when everyone with access to a computer thinks he knows all there is to know about anything?
I don't like to speculate about things I don't understand, but the view from here seems to be the end of civil society, violence in the offing. Is it now despair, and hunker down, trying to stay out of the way of this maniac?
Andrew Coyne is an editorialist, not a reporter. He is a professional opinionator.

--------------------
NDP Federal Convention Ottawa 2018: A random assortment of Prots and Trots.

Posts: 7646 | From: Peterborough, Upper Canada | Registered: Jun 2007  |  IP: Logged
Robert Armin

All licens'd fool
# 182

 - Posted      Profile for Robert Armin     Send new private message       Edit/delete post 
quote:
Originally posted by Pigwidgeon:
Today's Doonesbury comic strip offers a wonderful -- and scary -- metaphor.

(After today this link will take you to whatever the current day's strip is.)

Some of the comments that follow are very scary.

--------------------
Keeping fit was an obsession with Fr Moity .... He did chin ups in the vestry, calisthenics in the pulpit, and had developed a series of Tai-Chi exercises to correspond with ritual movements of the Mass. The Antipope Robert Rankin

Posts: 8927 | From: In the pack | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333

 - Posted      Profile for lilBuddha     Send new private message       Edit/delete post 
quote:
Originally posted by Soror Magna:
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
...
I wonder where this fear comes from?...

The shocking realization that being white and male no longer guarantees a spot at the front of the line. What's the world coming to when an uppity black man can become president and an intelligent, experienced, well-qualified woman dares to challenge an ignorant, unqualified, narcissistic white man?
That is an overly-simplistc view of this shituation.
Those people are definitely in the mix. But they are not the whole of the Benito Trump's supporters. ISTM, a great many are merely bandwagoners.
And the mainstream Republican party have done a bang up job instilling the politics of fear, and Trumpelstiltskin is capitalising on this.
There is also the legitimate frustration with the political status quo.
None of this excuses any of them, mind, but it is more complex than just racism and loss of status.

--------------------
I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou

Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008  |  IP: Logged
Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528

 - Posted      Profile for Lamb Chopped   Email Lamb Chopped   Send new private message       Edit/delete post 
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:

I felt the same way about friends who voted for Brexit. It must be a million times worse having Trump supporters as friends - I can't imagine it. Are they generally very low intelligence, if I may ask such a question?

I spoke with one this morning, who holds a master's in psych and has worked with his mind all his life. He is a bit of a single issues man (abortion) which makes sense because he is RC. But more to the point, he has not read as widely the kind of shit that Trump is spouting, and was unaware of some of what he has said. And he has legitimate concerns about Hilary Clinton.

I begged him to abstain. I have done the reading, and what I read scares me.

--------------------
Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!

Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004  |  IP: Logged
rolyn
Shipmate
# 16840

 - Posted      Profile for rolyn         Edit/delete post 
It is interesting that many are scared of trump while an equal number, (presumably), are not scared but excited. It's as if this candidate has tapped directly into an ideological vein. Like a narcotic experience-- a high for some, a bad trip for others.
And of course the more this campaign is only about him, and not about any of Hilary's carefully laid out policies, the more likely he is to win it.

If, on November 9, we wake up to President trump then the hope must be that he can be controlled by the Senate.

--------------------
Change is the only certainty of existence

Posts: 3206 | From: U.K. | Registered: Dec 2011  |  IP: Logged
Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468

 - Posted      Profile for Golden Key   Author's homepage     Send new private message       Edit/delete post 
Boogie--

quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
Travel would help them lose many of their fears, but I don't imagine they see any need to broaden their horizons.

[Frown]

Except that kind of travel isn't easy for Americans. Unless you live along the Canadian or Mexican border, you're far away from another country. Americans generally don't get much paid vacation. (IIRC, we have the least of any country in the industrialized world.) Many people don't get *any* paid vacation. Travel is expensive; and, since we have farther to go than, say, someone from the UK going to the Continent, it's *really* expensive. Many people dream of travel, and save their whole lives to try to take one brief trip out of the country. And many people desperately want to go abroad, but have no way to do it, ever.

--------------------
Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")

Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
Belle Ringer
Shipmate
# 13379

 - Posted      Profile for Belle Ringer   Email Belle Ringer   Send new private message       Edit/delete post 
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
I wonder where this fear comes from?

In a free and tolerant country like the USA it's very hard to see why some are in such fear.

The fear is broadly cultural, promoted by the advertising industry (you need to buy the right stuff or your friends will reject you, and you need to buy the latest toys for your kids or they'll be social rejects), fear sells.

Also news media (so-called), good news gets a quick glance, bad news buys the media and reads part of the article and drifts to some of the ads.

TV and movies are primarily about bad stuff, tension, fear, because adrenaline "feels alive".

The culture is inundated with from all 3 sides daily. Politics is mostly just going along for the ride, many a campaign starts out "clean" but soon gives in to mud-slinging because it works culturally.

Posts: 5830 | From: Texas | Registered: Jan 2008  |  IP: Logged
simontoad
Ship's Amphibian
# 18096

 - Posted      Profile for simontoad   Email simontoad   Send new private message       Edit/delete post 
The elderly couple I visited in CA are Trump supporters. They are both well educated Reagan Democrats. They are both prejudiced against blacks, mexicans and muslims (the semitic variety) mostly the whispering type of racism but sometimes more overt. I think more important than their racism though is their conservatism. I don't think they would vote for Clinton whoever was the Republican candidate, and this is the election that proves it. They reckon Clinton and the whole Democratic Party are corrupt, I suspect.

They genuinely believe that San Francisco is so horrible it should not be spoken of except in hushed tones, and that gang violence has made much of the San Joaquin Valley incapable of supporting civilised society.

It's sad. I wish our politics were not so different. They are too important to me, and were so good to me when I was young and this stuff can't be allowed to get in the way.

After all, the fact remains that the US has the institutional strength to withstand a Trump Presidency and is decentralized compared to the UK or Australia. If Trump loses and calls for armed resistance against a corrupt system it will get hairy, but it will also be a good opportunity to squash the far right. That can't be a bad thing.

--------------------
Human

Posts: 1571 | From: Romsey, Vic, AU | Registered: May 2014  |  IP: Logged
Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468

 - Posted      Profile for Golden Key   Author's homepage     Send new private message       Edit/delete post 
simontoad--

How is the US more decentralized, please? Thanks.

--------------------
Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")

Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
simontoad
Ship's Amphibian
# 18096

 - Posted      Profile for simontoad   Email simontoad   Send new private message       Edit/delete post 
heaps of states, heaps of little pillars of authority all over the shop.

--------------------
Human

Posts: 1571 | From: Romsey, Vic, AU | Registered: May 2014  |  IP: Logged
lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333

 - Posted      Profile for lilBuddha     Send new private message       Edit/delete post 
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
simontoad--

How is the US more decentralized, please? Thanks.

The authority granted individual States does not have a parallel in the UK. Not massively familiar with Australian governmental practice, but the States and territories have some autonomy from the federal government, so I would have though it somewhere between the UK and the US.

--------------------
I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou

Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008  |  IP: Logged
Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468

 - Posted      Profile for Golden Key   Author's homepage     Send new private message       Edit/delete post 
Thanks, both of you. I thought it might be states.

So does that mean that UK counties (?) and cities don't have much say over themselves? And the same with the different divisions of Australia? Can, say, Queensland pass its own laws that don't apply to New South Wales?

--------------------
Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")

Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815

 - Posted      Profile for Gee D     Send new private message       Edit/delete post 
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
simontoad--

How is the US more decentralized, please? Thanks.

The authority granted individual States does not have a parallel in the UK. Not massively familiar with Australian governmental practice, but the States and territories have some autonomy from the federal government, so I would have though it somewhere between the UK and the US.
Those writing our constitution were strongly influenced by the US one. This means (in general terms and some inaccuracy) that specific powers are given to the Commonwealth and all others belong to the States. Canada is the sort of half-way house where the specific powers are given to the Provinces and everything else is that of the national government.

--------------------
Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican

Posts: 7028 | From: Warrawee NSW Australia | Registered: Jun 2008  |  IP: Logged
Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815

 - Posted      Profile for Gee D     Send new private message       Edit/delete post 
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
Thanks, both of you. I thought it might be states.

So does that mean that UK counties (?) and cities don't have much say over themselves? And the same with the different divisions of Australia? Can, say, Queensland pass its own laws that don't apply to New South Wales?

Following from my post above, State legislation only applies in the state both here and in the US.

--------------------
Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican

Posts: 7028 | From: Warrawee NSW Australia | Registered: Jun 2008  |  IP: Logged
Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468

 - Posted      Profile for Golden Key   Author's homepage     Send new private message       Edit/delete post 
Thanks, Gee D. I was imagining that Aussie law might be something like the way you describe Canadian law. So, re my example, Queensland can pass its own law, without the national government's approval. I worded it clumsily before.

--------------------
Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")

Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
Jane R
Shipmate
# 331

 - Posted      Profile for Jane R   Email Jane R   Send new private message       Edit/delete post 
Goldenkey:
quote:
Many people dream of travel, and save their whole lives to try to take one brief trip out of the country. And many people desperately want to go abroad, but have no way to do it, ever.
[Votive]

Travel isn't the answer, anyway. One of my colleagues - a highly educated, well-travelled, articulate and (normally) well-informed woman whose opinions I (used to) respect - voted for Brexit. I was flabbergasted when I found out. She was *on holiday in Germany* when the vote happened, for God's sake (she had a postal vote) - how could she not want to stay in the EU?

Many people from the UK holiday in Southern Europe every year. They stay in purpose-built high-rise hotels with English-speaking receptionists and waiters; they sit on the beach all day; they go to 'English bars' in the evening. They quite like the local food, but they're not interested in the local culture or learning the language so they can communicate with non-English-speaking locals. They go for the weather.

Other people do go to experience Culture - the castles along the Rhine, the art treasures of Italy, the archaeological sites of Greece and Turkey. They may go to the trouble of learning some phrases to speak to the locals, but even some of them tend to look down their noses at the modern inhabitants of the countries they are visiting.

That kind of travel doesn't broaden the mind very much.

Posts: 3958 | From: Jorvik | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Firenze

Ordinary decent pagan
# 619

 - Posted      Profile for Firenze     Send new private message       Edit/delete post 
And some pack their prejudices when they do go. I was exasperated by a Trip Advisor review of a very nice restaurant in Pavia. The decor is a wild profusion of domestic and commercial memorabilia from the last hundred years - plates, utensils, advertisements, ornaments, you name it - cover the walls. And the review? OK the food was good but what about the 'Fascist era' poster?

I mean, where do you begin?

Posts: 17302 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815

 - Posted      Profile for Gee D     Send new private message       Edit/delete post 
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
Thanks, Gee D. I was imagining that Aussie law might be something like the way you describe Canadian law. So, re my example, Queensland can pass its own law, without the national government's approval. I worded it clumsily before.

And here, and in the US, laws on the same topic may vary from State to State. It was only in 2006 that defamation law became uniform throughout the country - and that came about by agreement between the States and the Commonwealth. Similar agreements have led to uniform consumer credit and consumer protection laws. But even crimes acts vary and in the case of Queensland and Western Australia have a very different approach as well. I gather that there has not been the same trend to uniform legislation in the US; indeed from memory there are different methods of choosing the members of the Electoral College.

--------------------
Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican

Posts: 7028 | From: Warrawee NSW Australia | Registered: Jun 2008  |  IP: Logged
Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322

 - Posted      Profile for Enoch   Email Enoch   Send new private message       Edit/delete post 
quote:
Originally cited by no prophet's flag is set so...:
That this election is even close is something of a calamity, a victory for all that is dark and barbaric in the American character.... Are the roots of Trump to be found in the coarsening of the culture, the celebrification of everything, the degradation of knowledge or civility in the age of social media, when everyone with access to a computer thinks he knows all there is to know about anything?

That sounds just like our Brexiteers, which is why I'm so fearful that Trump, which any electorate with a collective moral compass would see fall like Icarus, could well win.

At least though, Brexiteers don't have a constitutional right to bear arms - and even in our supposedly gun free culture that campaign produced a political murder. But obviously, that makes Trump and his supporters even more worrying.

--------------------
Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson

Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008  |  IP: Logged
Boogie

Boogie on down!
# 13538

 - Posted      Profile for Boogie     Send new private message       Edit/delete post 
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
quote:
Originally cited by no prophet's flag is set so...:
That this election is even close is something of a calamity, a victory for all that is dark and barbaric in the American character.... Are the roots of Trump to be found in the coarsening of the culture, the celebrification of everything, the degradation of knowledge or civility in the age of social media, when everyone with access to a computer thinks he knows all there is to know about anything?

That sounds just like our Brexiteers, which is why I'm so fearful that Trump, which any electorate with a collective moral compass would see fall like Icarus, could well win.


Yes.

I'm already trying to imagine the USA with a president Trump.


[Tear] [Frown] [Roll Eyes] [Eek!]

--------------------
Garden. Room. Walk

Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008  |  IP: Logged
Marvin the Martian

Interplanetary
# 4360

 - Posted      Profile for Marvin the Martian     Send new private message       Edit/delete post 
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
So does that mean that UK counties (?) and cities don't have much say over themselves?

Local Councils (which may be counties, cities or metropolitan boroughs depending on population) do have autonomy in areas such as parks, rubbish collection, community centres, leisure centres, libraries and so forth. They also have a measure of control (subject to national government policy) over policing, healthcare, fire service, transport, housing and social services.

They can collect their own council taxes, but the national government decides how much they can charge.

There's certainly nothing like in the US, where States can actually pass their own laws independently of the national government.

--------------------
Hail Gallaxhar

Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
Marvin the Martian

Interplanetary
# 4360

 - Posted      Profile for Marvin the Martian     Send new private message       Edit/delete post 
quote:
Originally posted by Jane R:
She was *on holiday in Germany* when the vote happened, for God's sake (she had a postal vote) - how could she not want to stay in the EU?

I've been on holiday to Egypt, Tunisia and Morocco, but that doesn't mean I want the UK to be part of the Arab League.

--------------------
Hail Gallaxhar

Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
Callan
Shipmate
# 525

 - Posted      Profile for Callan     Send new private message       Edit/delete post 
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
quote:
Originally cited by no prophet's flag is set so...:
That this election is even close is something of a calamity, a victory for all that is dark and barbaric in the American character.... Are the roots of Trump to be found in the coarsening of the culture, the celebrification of everything, the degradation of knowledge or civility in the age of social media, when everyone with access to a computer thinks he knows all there is to know about anything?

That sounds just like our Brexiteers, which is why I'm so fearful that Trump, which any electorate with a collective moral compass would see fall like Icarus, could well win.

At least though, Brexiteers don't have a constitutional right to bear arms - and even in our supposedly gun free culture that campaign produced a political murder. But obviously, that makes Trump and his supporters even more worrying.

Two political murders. Remember Arek Joswik.

The very scary thing is that the nationalist right seem to be rather good at energising non-voters. People voted for Brexit who hadn't voted for years and much of AfD's support appears to derive from non-voters. American psephology is not my thang but if the polls are being adjusted for the usual levels of turn-out and Trump motivates a bunch of people who would otherwise stay at home then we are going to get really nostalgic for that comparatively happy time when complaining about the badness of 2016 meant getting mawkish about David Bowie and Alan Rickman.

--------------------
How easy it would be to live in England, if only one did not love her. - G.K. Chesterton

Posts: 9757 | From: Citizen of the World | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Jane R
Shipmate
# 331

 - Posted      Profile for Jane R   Email Jane R   Send new private message       Edit/delete post 
Marvin:
quote:
I've been on holiday to Egypt, Tunisia and Morocco, but that doesn't mean I want the UK to be part of the Arab League.
Well done Marvin, you just proved my point.
Posts: 3958 | From: Jorvik | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Alan Cresswell

Mad Scientist 先生
# 31

 - Posted      Profile for Alan Cresswell   Email Alan Cresswell   Send new private message       Edit/delete post 
quote:
Originally posted by Jane R:
Marvin:
quote:
I've been on holiday to Egypt, Tunisia and Morocco, but that doesn't mean I want the UK to be part of the Arab League.
Well done Marvin, you just proved my point.
OK, I might be having a stupid moment - but I'm not seeing what your point was, let alone that Marvin proved it. Care to help me out by expanding on it a bit?

I can see how someone holidaying overseas benefits from visa waiver programmes (none of us want the time, hassle and expense of applying for a tourist visa for a weeks holiday). But, I would be very surprised if Brexit doesn't include a visa waiver scheme, nor that the UK doesn't immediately enter into such schemes with other countries (at least those which are already covered by such arrangements through the EU). Brexit isn't going to directly affect our ability to holiday overseas (indirectly, exchange rates may change the affordability of overseas holidays).

Of course, if your example was of someone taking advantage of freedom of movement to live and/or work in Germany I would say that I'd be surprised if they voted for Brexit - if they had a vote at all.

--------------------
Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.

Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Jane R
Shipmate
# 331

 - Posted      Profile for Jane R   Email Jane R   Send new private message       Edit/delete post 
No, it was a lot simpler than that - I was trying to disprove Boogie's statement that travel broadens the mind and would automatically prevent people from wanting to vote for Brexit/Donald Trump...

I'm not even sure that living in another country does it, either. Wasn't there a poll of British expats which showed that they were split approximately 50/50 on the question of Brexit? Not that it really mattered, because they didn't get to vote. I'm not talking about Gibralter and the other overseas territories here - I'm thinking of the British pensioners who have bought retirement homes in Spain.

Posts: 3958 | From: Jorvik | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061

 - Posted      Profile for Brenda Clough   Author's homepage   Email Brenda Clough   Send new private message       Edit/delete post 
Thank the Lord, the press corps seems to be wising up about how to handle a brazen liar like Trump. This is from the Atlantic, and so should be a free click.

--------------------
Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page

Posts: 6378 | From: Washington DC | Registered: Mar 2014  |  IP: Logged
Jane R
Shipmate
# 331

 - Posted      Profile for Jane R   Email Jane R   Send new private message       Edit/delete post 
I believe this is the news story I was thinking of - not a poll as such, but a BBC report with interviews. Can't find anything with numbers in it.
Posts: 3958 | From: Jorvik | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Alan Cresswell

Mad Scientist 先生
# 31

 - Posted      Profile for Alan Cresswell   Email Alan Cresswell   Send new private message       Edit/delete post 
quote:
Originally posted by Jane R:
No, it was a lot simpler than that - I was trying to disprove Boogie's statement that travel broadens the mind and would automatically prevent people from wanting to vote for Brexit/Donald Trump...

But, hasn't it already been stated that "travel" is too broad a category including those who go somewhere that is just like the English sea-side but with warm weather and those who delve into the local culture and cuisine. Of course, I've no idea what sort of tourists your friends who went to Germany are, nor how Marvin spends his time overseas. So, that makes the anecdote pretty worthless to demonstrate anything. Plus, IIRC, Marvin voted to Remain ...

quote:
I'm not even sure that living in another country does it, either. Wasn't there a poll of British expats which showed that they were split approximately 50/50 on the question of Brexit? Not that it really mattered, because they didn't get to vote. I'm not talking about Gibralter and the other overseas territories here - I'm thinking of the British pensioners who have bought retirement homes in Spain.
I don't recall such a survey. Though there is still a High Court case pending brought by a large group of ex-pats questioning the legitimacy of the referendum on the grounds that they were excluded from voting despite the significant impact the decision would have on them - presumably because they would have voted Remain if they had the chance.

--------------------
Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.

Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Soror Magna
Shipmate
# 9881

 - Posted      Profile for Soror Magna   Email Soror Magna   Send new private message       Edit/delete post 
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
... Those people are definitely in the mix. But they are not the whole of the Benito Trump's supporters. ISTM, a great many are merely bandwagoners.
And the mainstream Republican party have done a bang up job instilling the politics of fear, and Trumpelstiltskin is capitalising on this.
There is also the legitimate frustration with the political status quo. ...

It may also be simplistic to assume it can only be either/or; both/and is also a possibility.

However, the real point I want to make is that the meaning of "status quo" has drifted and it makes me bonkers. Although it is currently used to mean the way things are, the full phrase is "status quo ante bellum" which means the way things were before the war. It's a negotiation point - combatants return to their original positions before the conflict.

IMNSHO, that is exactly what they want. They're not frustrated with the status quo; they want to return to it. The status quo ante bellum - before feminism, before civil rights, before Roe v. Wade, before the 15th and 19th Amendments; heck, some would be thrilled to go back to before the Civil War.

--------------------
"You come with me to room 1013 over at the hospital, I'll show you America. Terminal, crazy and mean." -- Tony Kushner, "Angels in America"

Posts: 5430 | From: Caprica City | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged
lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333

 - Posted      Profile for lilBuddha     Send new private message       Edit/delete post 
quote:
Originally posted by Soror Magna:
It may also be simplistic to assume it can only be either/or; both/and is also a possibility.

Of course.
quote:


IMNSHO, that is exactly what they want. They're not frustrated with the status quo; they want to return to it. The status quo ante bellum - before feminism, before civil rights, before Roe v. Wade, before the 15th and 19th Amendments; heck, some would be thrilled to go back to before the Civil War.

This is not the status to whose quo I am referring. What I am speaking of the entrenchment of a political class who are focused on serving masters other than the public.
My point is not to negate the racism or sexism, those exist in far to great a number of Trump's Dimnions. There are people who are backing the freakshow for reasons other than those. However, like the Brexidiots, they are shoulder to shoulder with those loathsome folk and are supporting someone who spouts such shite.
So I am not defending them, not by a long shot.

--------------------
I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou

Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008  |  IP: Logged
Soror Magna
Shipmate
# 9881

 - Posted      Profile for Soror Magna   Email Soror Magna   Send new private message       Edit/delete post 
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
...
So I am not defending them, not by a long shot.

Of that I have no doubt. I just don't think even the non-deplorables have much of a clue about the politics they're so incensed about. My evidence for that is that they have been voting against their own interests, losing economic ground, and then putting the blame in the wrong place for the last 50 years.

--------------------
"You come with me to room 1013 over at the hospital, I'll show you America. Terminal, crazy and mean." -- Tony Kushner, "Angels in America"

Posts: 5430 | From: Caprica City | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged
lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333

 - Posted      Profile for lilBuddha     Send new private message       Edit/delete post 
quote:
Originally posted by Soror Magna:
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
...
So I am not defending them, not by a long shot.

Of that I have no doubt. I just don't think even the non-deplorables have much of a clue about the politics they're so incensed about. My evidence for that is that they have been voting against their own interests, losing economic ground, and then putting the blame in the wrong place for the last 50 years.
My opinion of the general electorate is about as low as it can be. People vote with far less reason and logic than they will generally admit.
Hence Brexit and the Angry Troll Doll.

--------------------
I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou

Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008  |  IP: Logged
Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061

 - Posted      Profile for Brenda Clough   Author's homepage   Email Brenda Clough   Send new private message       Edit/delete post 
I need to see the chapter and verse on this. Ideally, a selfie of Jesus's Honda (see Acts 2:1, 'All the apostles were in one Accord') with the Trump bumper sticker on it.

--------------------
Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page

Posts: 6378 | From: Washington DC | Registered: Mar 2014  |  IP: Logged
simontoad
Ship's Amphibian
# 18096

 - Posted      Profile for simontoad   Email simontoad   Send new private message       Edit/delete post 
I travel overseas every two years or so. I find that when I travel I spend alot of mental energy focusing in on things that shit me, such as the roads being so bloody narrow in Europe (including the UK), and the American capacity to create crap advertisements for the most bizarre things. I mean, why can't they do things like we do them at home for God's sake.

Really, if you stay in a place for a year or so, you will know bugger all about it no matter what you do. You can't properly understand a place that is not your home without... no, you just can't. Bill Bryson be damned.

We saw a few election signs about today as we cruised around some plantations along the Mississippi River. Local candidates are the g.o. We rarely see Presidential signs. There is a battle royale for the Mayor's job in Selma. One is a Police Officer wounded in the line of duty, but I don't know anything about the other. The Police Officer is a black guy, and I reckon that race is still relevant in Selma. It's a poor town. Well, parts of it are poor.

[ 19. September 2016, 23:55: Message edited by: simontoad ]

--------------------
Human

Posts: 1571 | From: Romsey, Vic, AU | Registered: May 2014  |  IP: Logged
lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333

 - Posted      Profile for lilBuddha     Send new private message       Edit/delete post 
quote:
Originally posted by simontoad:

Really, if you stay in a place for a year or so, you will know bugger all about it no matter what you do. You can't properly understand a place that is not your home without... no, you just can't.

Yes you can. I agree that travel doesn't inherently broaden one's horizons and, as many British expats prove,* one can live in another country and still be ignorant of it.
However, I dispute the assertion that one cannot understand a new place.


*And Americans in Baja California.

--------------------
I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou

Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008  |  IP: Logged
Boogie

Boogie on down!
# 13538

 - Posted      Profile for Boogie     Send new private message       Edit/delete post 
Trump has now compared Syrian refugees to a packet of poisoned skittles.

I felt sick when I read it. Such lack of compassion is utterly obnoxious. Surely, surely this will wake the voters of the USA up?

Godwin, I know. But ordinary people supported Hitler.


[Frown] [Frown]

[fixed code for URL]

[ 20. September 2016, 10:22: Message edited by: Alan Cresswell ]

--------------------
Garden. Room. Walk

Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008  |  IP: Logged
la vie en rouge
Parisienne
# 10688

 - Posted      Profile for la vie en rouge     Send new private message       Edit/delete post 
Boogie your link isn't working for me.

And no, Trump shouldn't be compared to Hitler. The correct comparison is with Mussolini.

--------------------
Rent my holiday home in the South of France

Posts: 3696 | Registered: Nov 2005  |  IP: Logged
leftfieldlover
Shipmate
# 13467

 - Posted      Profile for leftfieldlover         Edit/delete post 
I have just seen this on the BBC

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-37414245

What does Trump think should happen then? Should the bomber be left with his wounds untreated and not fed? This guy is an American. Would Trump have said the same thing about a non-Moslem bomber, who hadn't actually killed anyone? Do I get the feeling that Trump would have preferred this guy to have been killed in the shoot-out?

[ 20. September 2016, 09:49: Message edited by: leftfieldlover ]

Posts: 164 | From: oxford | Registered: Feb 2008  |  IP: Logged



Pages in this thread: 1  2  3  ...  95  96  97  98  99  100  101  ...  138  139  140 
 
Post new thread  
Thread closed  Thread closed
Open thread   Feature thread   Move thread   Delete thread Next oldest thread   Next newest thread
 - Printer-friendly view
Go to:

Contact us | Ship of Fools | Privacy statement

© Ship of Fools 2016

Powered by Infopop Corporation
UBB.classicTM 6.5.0

 
follow ship of fools on twitter
buy your ship of fools postcards
sip of fools mugs from your favourite nautical website
 
 
  ship of fools