homepage
  roll on christmas  
click here to find out more about ship of fools click here to sign up for the ship of fools newsletter click here to support ship of fools
community the mystery worshipper gadgets for god caption competition foolishness features ship stuff
discussion boards live chat cafe avatars frequently-asked questions the ten commandments gallery private boards register for the boards
 
Ship of Fools


Post new thread  Post a reply
My profile login | | Directory | Search | FAQs | Board home
   - Printer-friendly view Next oldest thread   Next newest thread
» Ship of Fools   » Ship's Locker   » Limbo   » Purgatory: In, out, in, out; EU Referendum thread. (Page 18)

 - Email this page to a friend or enemy.  
Pages in this thread: 1  2  3  ...  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  ...  35  36  37 
 
Source: (consider it) Thread: Purgatory: In, out, in, out; EU Referendum thread.
quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740

 - Posted      Profile for quetzalcoatl   Email quetzalcoatl   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by rolyn:
quote:
Originally posted by Rocinante:
Scepticism about polling is understandable, given recent experience, but it does not give the remain campaign any grounds for complacency. I think the "leave" vote may be significantly under-represented.

Not sure if Johson's been too wise in bringing you-no-who's name into the debate. Cameron will throw it back at him for sure.

Come June 23, what could upset the apple cart is if fired-up 'leavers' turn up at polling booths who don't normally get out to vote, while cosy 'remainers' stay in the chair.

Also if the remain campaign insists on continuing to plough it's negative rut then there's a real possibility that remainers will switch and say You know what? I'm gonna do the opposite
Call it the Boatie McBoatie factor. Underestimate a combination of mischief and anti-establishment feeling at your peril. [/QB]

Yes, my first reaction was, fuck you, Cameron, I'm going to vote Leave. However, the appalling gallery of Leave leaders has changed that. But I wouldn't be surprised if there isn't quite a large rebellious vote for Leave. Quite ironic that Cameron and Corbyn are on the same side, this may not help either.

--------------------
I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.

Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011  |  IP: Logged
Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748

 - Posted      Profile for Doc Tor     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
Quite ironic that Cameron and Corbyn are on the same side, this may not help either.

I think it might help. Corbyn has credibility with the young who may not otherwise vote. His reasons for remaining are a lot more nuanced than Hameron, too.

--------------------
Forward the New Republic

Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged
quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740

 - Posted      Profile for quetzalcoatl   Email quetzalcoatl   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
Quite ironic that Cameron and Corbyn are on the same side, this may not help either.

I think it might help. Corbyn has credibility with the young who may not otherwise vote. His reasons for remaining are a lot more nuanced than Hameron, too.
Yes, that could swing it. Ironic, that Cameron may be depending on Labour voters to push Remain over the line. I would guess that they are also in a bolshy mood, though.

--------------------
I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.

Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011  |  IP: Logged
Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322

 - Posted      Profile for Enoch   Email Enoch   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
If Johnson comparing the EU to the Nazis doesn't destroy the remaining credibility of the Leave campaign then I don't understand the country anymore.

quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
I think Brexit support is the UK equivalent of Trump support, Alan. Political opportunists sloganising and playing on fears. Bad hair seems to help as well.

Both those get a
[Overused]

--------------------
Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson

Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008  |  IP: Logged
quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740

 - Posted      Profile for quetzalcoatl   Email quetzalcoatl   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
If Johnson comparing the EU to the Nazis doesn't destroy the remaining credibility of the Leave campaign then I don't understand the country anymore.

I don't think it will, as this campaign is going beyond normality into surreal and Trump-like dimensions. There seem to be so many irrational ideas floating around, about the EU, about brown people, and French and German people, and so on. Seeing Farage and Gove and Galloway on the same side is weird enough, but now, people are not really saying normal or rational things. I bet Cameron is wishing he'd never started this. The nutters have been let out of the asylum.

[ 15. May 2016, 16:08: Message edited by: quetzalcoatl ]

--------------------
I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.

Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011  |  IP: Logged
rolyn
Shipmate
# 16840

 - Posted      Profile for rolyn         Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
I bet Cameron is wishing he'd never started this. The nutters have been let out of the asylum.

One does wonder if this was a good time to throw such a bone to the pack.
If voters fall back on party loyalty then Remain has nothing to worry about. Thing is this isn't 1975. The Internet is now the Oracle in Chief and the moderating influence of UK liberalism was destroyed at the last Election.


Boaty McBoatface is what a meant to say above. An Internet vote which propelled a joke name way ahead of the household name, one which it was supposed would win the dedication of a polar exploration vessel. Possibly not greatest example of the whims of the Electorate. [Roll Eyes]

--------------------
Change is the only certainty of existence

Posts: 3206 | From: U.K. | Registered: Dec 2011  |  IP: Logged
Rocinante
Shipmate
# 18541

 - Posted      Profile for Rocinante   Email Rocinante   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
If Johnson comparing the EU to the Nazis doesn't destroy the remaining credibility of the Leave campaign then I don't understand the country anymore.

They haven't much credibility to lose, but it doesn't matter. People I know who are going to vote leave are not following the debate, they don't care which talking head says what. They just don't like the EU because it costs us money, foreigners tell us what to do, and it lets those foreigners come here and cost us more money. Their minds are made up.

Cameron needs Labour to save his ass by appealing to all the younger voters who have so much to lose here to actually, you know, go and vote...

However, given what happened to Labour in Scotland after they campaigned with the Tories in the independence referendum, Corbyn could be forgiven for being a little circumspect. I agree with Doc Tor that Jezza's pitch of "I have reservations about the EU myself but on balance I think we should stay", whilst not being brilliant rhetoric may ultimately cut more ice than Cameron's position of "I'm Prime Minister and I say we're all doomed if we leave". That stuff just bounces off the brexiters, and young people have Cameron set on "ignore".

Posts: 384 | From: UK | Registered: Jan 2016  |  IP: Logged
chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641

 - Posted      Profile for chris stiles   Email chris stiles   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Rocinante:
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
If Johnson comparing the EU to the Nazis doesn't destroy the remaining credibility of the Leave campaign then I don't understand the country anymore.

They haven't much credibility to lose, but it doesn't matter. People I know who are going to vote leave are not following the debate, they don't care which talking head says what. They just don't like the EU because it costs us money, foreigners tell us what to do, and it lets those foreigners come here and cost us more money. Their minds are made up.

Yes, and assuming we leave it will be somewhat interesting to see what they do when they realise that reconstituting the UK as Norway/Switzerland,/Canada/Singapore/Albania, still costs us money, that foreigners still tell us what to do, that the chuckleheads in charge are happy to run an open immigration policy, and that the country isn't magically better purely because everyone has been told to sit up and behave.
Posts: 4035 | From: Berkshire | Registered: May 2007  |  IP: Logged
Eirenist
Shipmate
# 13343

 - Posted      Profile for Eirenist         Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
So if we decide to leave, how long will it be before we start trying to find a way to get back in, without, (of course) admitting that that's what we're doing?

--------------------
'I think I think, therefore I think I am'

Posts: 486 | From: Darkest Metroland | Registered: Jan 2008  |  IP: Logged
LeRoc

Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216

 - Posted      Profile for LeRoc     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Eirenist: So if we decide to leave, how long will it be before we start trying to find a way to get back in, without, (of course) admitting that that's what we're doing?
It's already started.

--------------------
I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)

Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641

 - Posted      Profile for chris stiles   Email chris stiles   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
quote:
Eirenist: So if we decide to leave, how long will it be before we start trying to find a way to get back in, without, (of course) admitting that that's what we're doing?
It's already started.
.. amongst those that don't envisage Britain as some kind of feudal tax haven for billionaires (people really need to understand how Singapore is set up before assuming it matches their aspiration).

[ 16. May 2016, 13:24: Message edited by: chris stiles ]

Posts: 4035 | From: Berkshire | Registered: May 2007  |  IP: Logged
TurquoiseTastic

Fish of a different color
# 8978

 - Posted      Profile for TurquoiseTastic   Email TurquoiseTastic   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
I have been wondering what happens if turnout is rather low. Then whatever the vote is, it won't really settle anything. Say we had 51% Leave or 51% Remain on a 60% turnout. In either case the losing side could (and would) claim that their opponents had no clear majority.

I almost feel this should be a compulsory vote.

Posts: 1092 | From: Hants., UK | Registered: Jan 2005  |  IP: Logged
Marvin the Martian

Interplanetary
# 4360

 - Posted      Profile for Marvin the Martian     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
If Johnson comparing the EU to the Nazis doesn't destroy the remaining credibility of the Leave campaign then I don't understand the country anymore.

Both the French and the Germans have "previous" in terms of trying to unite the continent under their rule. Napoleon tried it, Hitler tried it. And in both cases it was the British who bloody well stopped them.

Now we're in a situation where the French and Germans have decided to combine forces in order to unite the continent under their rule, and because they know military means won't work as long as Britain remains free they're using bureaucracy and economics as their weapons this time. But ultimately the ends are the same - a European Empire controlled from Paris and Berlin. And in just over a month the British will have a decision to make - do we meekly roll over and submit to their rule, or do we bloody well stop them again?

--------------------
Hail Gallaxhar

Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
LeRoc

Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216

 - Posted      Profile for LeRoc     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
[Killing me]

--------------------
I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)

Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
Alan Cresswell

Mad Scientist 先生
# 31

 - Posted      Profile for Alan Cresswell   Email Alan Cresswell   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
And in just over a month the British will have a decision to make - do we meekly roll over and submit to their rule

By voting to leave the EU and surrendering any influence we have.
quote:
or do we bloody well stop them again?
By, staying in the EU and using our influence to promote policies and practices that we consider to be the best for everyone in Europe.

The arguments work both ways. Even if you accept the rather absurd notion that the EU is actually a front for a Franco-German Empire.

--------------------
Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.

Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641

 - Posted      Profile for chris stiles   Email chris stiles   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:

And in just over a month the British will have a decision to make - do we meekly roll over and submit to their rule, or do we bloody well stop them again?

So what do you propose to do after that? Invade the continent as a pre-emptive measure?

[Roll Eyes]

Posts: 4035 | From: Berkshire | Registered: May 2007  |  IP: Logged
Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748

 - Posted      Profile for Doc Tor     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
And in both cases it was the British who bloody well stopped them.

Er, no. In both cases it was an alliance of many countries united together for a common goal.

Oh, if only we had something like that now, that would make warfare on the European continent unlikely. Sounds like a thing we might support, yes? Perhaps even join?

--------------------
Forward the New Republic

Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged
leo
Shipmate
# 1458

 - Posted      Profile for leo   Author's homepage   Email leo   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by TurquoiseTastic:
I have been wondering what happens if turnout is rather low. Then whatever the vote is, it won't really settle anything. Say we had 51% Leave or 51% Remain on a 60% turnout. In either case the losing side could (and would) claim that their opponents had no clear majority.

I almost feel this should be a compulsory vote.

It doesn't matter how low the turnout is - the british system regards it as 'the democratic will of the people' - as it did when about 16% voted a mayoral election here.

--------------------
My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com

Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
Marvin the Martian

Interplanetary
# 4360

 - Posted      Profile for Marvin the Martian     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
Even if you accept the rather absurd notion that the EU is actually a front for a Franco-German Empire.

Absurd? When the Greek crisis was going on, which European leader was the one calling the shots and deciding which economic policies the Greek government would be allowed to follow? It wasn't Tsiparas, the Prime Minister of Greece. It wasn't Juncker, the President of the EU. It was Merkel, the Chancellor of Germany.

--------------------
Hail Gallaxhar

Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
Marvin the Martian

Interplanetary
# 4360

 - Posted      Profile for Marvin the Martian     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by chris stiles:
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:

And in just over a month the British will have a decision to make - do we meekly roll over and submit to their rule, or do we bloody well stop them again?

So what do you propose to do after that? Invade the continent as a pre-emptive measure?
Leave 'em to it. If all those other countries are happy to be ruled by Germany and France then that's their look out, but personally I'd prefer to see Britain ruled by the democratic will of the British people.

--------------------
Hail Gallaxhar

Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
Marvin the Martian

Interplanetary
# 4360

 - Posted      Profile for Marvin the Martian     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
Er, no. In both cases it was an alliance of many countries united together for a common goal.

Oh, if only we had something like that now, that would make warfare on the European continent unlikely. Sounds like a thing we might support, yes? Perhaps even join?

The only goal the EU has is the enrichment of France and Germany at the expense of everyone else.

--------------------
Hail Gallaxhar

Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713

 - Posted      Profile for Sioni Sais   Email Sioni Sais   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by chris stiles:
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:

And in just over a month the British will have a decision to make - do we meekly roll over and submit to their rule, or do we bloody well stop them again?

So what do you propose to do after that? Invade the continent as a pre-emptive measure?
Leave 'em to it. If all those other countries are happy to be ruled by Germany and France then that's their look out, but personally I'd prefer to see Britain ruled by the democratic will of the British people.
Some hope! For forty years this country has been run entirely for the interest of big business. Ordinary people plus SMEs have been screwed time after time while international corporations, investment traders and banks dictate economic and social policy.

Believe me, without the EU we'd be one hell of a lot worse off.

--------------------
"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"

(Paul Sinha, BBC)

Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
Marvin the Martian

Interplanetary
# 4360

 - Posted      Profile for Marvin the Martian     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
Some hope! For forty years this country has been run entirely for the interest of big business. Ordinary people plus SMEs have been screwed time after time while international corporations, investment traders and banks dictate economic and social policy.

What on earth makes you think the EU isn't dominated by banks and multinationals? The difference is, in Britain it's possible to vote for change.

I just don't understand this idea that the EU is some kind of bastion of social democracy and upholder of the common people. Especially when the most socialist and common-people-focused government that's been elected in Europe for a generation (Greece again) was told in no uncertain terms that the EU wouldn't allow it to enact any of the policies it had campaigned on.

--------------------
Hail Gallaxhar

Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
Eirenist
Shipmate
# 13343

 - Posted      Profile for Eirenist         Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
'Britain ruled by the democratic will of the British people' . . . .
. . . .who are told how to vote by the underlings of an Australian who prefers to live in the U.S.A, and his peers.

--------------------
'I think I think, therefore I think I am'

Posts: 486 | From: Darkest Metroland | Registered: Jan 2008  |  IP: Logged
Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110

 - Posted      Profile for Barnabas62   Email Barnabas62   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
Some hope! For forty years this country has been run entirely for the interest of big business. Ordinary people plus SMEs have been screwed time after time while international corporations, investment traders and banks dictate economic and social policy.

What on earth makes you think the EU isn't dominated by banks and multinationals? The difference is, in Britain it's possible to vote for change.

Does this mean you'll vote for Corbyn, rather then the Posh Boys' party!

More seriously, Marvin. Of course you are right that multinationals lobby and grease the EU wheels, often very successfully. Multinational influence-peddling is a challenge for every national democracy. The real issue is whether you can better look after national interests by sole negotations, or as part of a larger group. Basically, the smaller you are, the fewer chips you have to play with and the more you are likely to have to kow-tow.

It's a myth that we'd do better in such negotations by leaving the club.

--------------------
Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?

Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641

 - Posted      Profile for chris stiles   Email chris stiles   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:

More seriously, Marvin. Of course you are right that multinationals lobby and grease the EU wheels, often very successfully. Multinational influence-peddling is a challenge for every national democracy.

It's a myth that we'd do better in such negotations
by leaving the club.

Yes, there is also the question of whether or not multinationals/big finance are going to find it easier or harder to influence national policy under the sorts of people likely to emerge the in case of Leave vote, or under the sort of regime they envisage.
Posts: 4035 | From: Berkshire | Registered: May 2007  |  IP: Logged
Ricardus
Shipmate
# 8757

 - Posted      Profile for Ricardus   Author's homepage   Email Ricardus   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
If Johnson comparing the EU to the Nazis doesn't destroy the remaining credibility of the Leave campaign then I don't understand the country anymore.

Both the French and the Germans have "previous" in terms of trying to unite the continent under their rule. Napoleon tried it, Hitler tried it. And in both cases it was the British who bloody well stopped them.

Now we're in a situation where the French and Germans have decided to combine forces in order to unite the continent under their rule, and because they know military means won't work as long as Britain remains free they're using bureaucracy and economics as their weapons this time. But ultimately the ends are the same - a European Empire controlled from Paris and Berlin. And in just over a month the British will have a decision to make - do we meekly roll over and submit to their rule, or do we bloody well stop them again?

This is the kind of meta-stupid argument that is not only demonstrably wrong but also manages to obscure some genuine reasons for scepticism towards the EU.

1. Germany and France between them hold 2 out of 30 seats on the Council, 2 out of 28 seats on the Commission, and 170 out of 751 seats in the Parliament, which makes both countries underrepresented relative to their population size.

2. François Hollande was in favour of rapprochement with Tsipras.

3. Merkel's view of Greece prevailed because most of the electorate in the rest of the Eurozone agreed with it. Politicians in Ireland, Spain, Italy, Slovakia, Slovenia, Finland etc all grandstanded about how unfair it would be if Greece was allowed debt relief when they had all had to implement austerity measures.

4. The Greek government can implement whatever laws it likes, it's just that it might not get debt relief if it implements laws its creditors don't like. That tends to be how creditor-debtor relationships work. I think Greece's creditors have been remarkably stupid but I think that reflects the nature of sovereign debt rather than European democracy.

5. Because obviously freedom-loving Britain has no 'previous' in Empire-building.

Point (3) is where your argument hides a genuine reason for scepticism. Earlier someone quoted Enoch Powell's observation that the problem with European democracy is that there is no European demos, and the level of national grandstanding around the Greek crisis rather serves to confirm this.

--------------------
Then the dog ran before, and coming as if he had brought the news, shewed his joy by his fawning and wagging his tail. -- Tobit 11:9 (Douai-Rheims)

Posts: 7247 | From: Liverpool, UK | Registered: Nov 2004  |  IP: Logged
Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713

 - Posted      Profile for Sioni Sais   Email Sioni Sais   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
Some hope! For forty years this country has been run entirely for the interest of big business. Ordinary people plus SMEs have been screwed time after time while international corporations, investment traders and banks dictate economic and social policy.

What on earth makes you think the EU isn't dominated by banks and multinationals? The difference is, in Britain it's possible to vote for change.

We can vote for change, but there's little chance we wll get any change because UK governments even inside the EU are so craven to business interests that they won't stand up to them. Not even to the extent that the German and French governments do.
quote:


I just don't understand this idea that the EU is some kind of bastion of social democracy and upholder of the common people. Especially when the most socialist and common-people-focused government that's been elected in Europe for a generation (Greece again) was told in no uncertain terms that the EU wouldn't allow it to enact any of the policies it had campaigned on.

That Greek government wasn't simply socialist and people-focused. It was in very weak position to bargain with anyone. The governments of Sweden and Denmark which have any number of socialist markers (high taxation and government spending for a start) don't have the problems Greece has because they aren't economically weak.

--------------------
"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"

(Paul Sinha, BBC)

Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748

 - Posted      Profile for Doc Tor     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
Er, no. In both cases it was an alliance of many countries united together for a common goal.

Oh, if only we had something like that now, that would make warfare on the European continent unlikely. Sounds like a thing we might support, yes? Perhaps even join?

The only goal the EU has is the enrichment of France and Germany at the expense of everyone else.
I knew I should have bought shares in tin foil hat manufacturers while I had the chance.

Thank God you only get one vote.

--------------------
Forward the New Republic

Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged
Arethosemyfeet
Shipmate
# 17047

 - Posted      Profile for Arethosemyfeet   Email Arethosemyfeet   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
I just don't understand this idea that the EU is some kind of bastion of social democracy and upholder of the common people. Especially when the most socialist and common-people-focused government that's been elected in Europe for a generation (Greece again) was told in no uncertain terms that the EU wouldn't allow it to enact any of the policies it had campaigned on.

Simple, really. The last 30 years of British governments have been so right wing they make the EU look socialist. Tattered and threadbare it may be, but the EU is the last line of defence against the depredations of the tories and their fellow travellers. Give Corbyn a solid majority in 2020 and we'll the opposite situation.
Posts: 2933 | From: Hebrides | Registered: Apr 2012  |  IP: Logged
quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740

 - Posted      Profile for quetzalcoatl   Email quetzalcoatl   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Arethosemyfeet:
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
I just don't understand this idea that the EU is some kind of bastion of social democracy and upholder of the common people. Especially when the most socialist and common-people-focused government that's been elected in Europe for a generation (Greece again) was told in no uncertain terms that the EU wouldn't allow it to enact any of the policies it had campaigned on.

Simple, really. The last 30 years of British governments have been so right wing they make the EU look socialist. Tattered and threadbare it may be, but the EU is the last line of defence against the depredations of the tories and their fellow travellers. Give Corbyn a solid majority in 2020 and we'll the opposite situation.
Well, you have said something explicitly, that I hear people murmuring sotto voce - that the EU offers protection against UK governments! This seems incredible and bizarre, but it seems to be one strand in the pro-EU position.

In fact, it may not be true in various areas, I mean the EU could be more reactionary than the UK government, but some people seem to see it the other way round.

Possibly, part of the Labour pro-EU position is this, I'm not sure.

But then the Leave clowncar seems to rub it in - the EU might be an umbrella of protection against such a weird bunch.

--------------------
I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.

Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011  |  IP: Logged
lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333

 - Posted      Profile for lilBuddha     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
I knew I should have bought shares in tin foil hat manufacturers while I had the chance.

Thank God you only get one vote.

Tin foil hats commodities have proven to hold their worth better than nearly any other. Never a shortage of adherents to that trend, unfortunately.

--------------------
I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou

Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008  |  IP: Logged
alienfromzog

Ship's Alien
# 5327

 - Posted      Profile for alienfromzog   Email alienfromzog   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
This is interesting.

I really do despair of democracy. Why don't people see through the crap or you know, think at all?

Brexit is a bad idea.

AFZ

--------------------
Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts.
[Sen. D.P.Moynihan]

An Alien's View of Earth - my blog (or vanity exercise...)

Posts: 2150 | From: Zog, obviously! Straight past Alpha Centauri, 2nd planet on the left... | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740

 - Posted      Profile for quetzalcoatl   Email quetzalcoatl   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by alienfromzog:
This is interesting.

I really do despair of democracy. Why don't people see through the crap or you know, think at all?

Brexit is a bad idea.

AFZ

I think it's partly because politics has become very boring and alienating. People are used to this, so they either ignore it, or well, ignore it. People like Boris can play to this, as they offer a kind of clowncar, or a cartoon version, which people find amusing or diverting, or possibly, revolting. I don't think immigration is really about politics, it's something more atavistic, isn't it? The darkies are coming!

--------------------
I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.

Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011  |  IP: Logged
Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110

 - Posted      Profile for Barnabas62   Email Barnabas62   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by alienfromzog:
This is interesting.

I really do despair of democracy. Why don't people see through the crap or you know, think at all?

Brexit is a bad idea.

AFZ

Sure. But stupid is fashionable. So is bad hair. The New Dark Ages cannot be too far away.

--------------------
Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?

Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
rolyn
Shipmate
# 16840

 - Posted      Profile for rolyn         Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
I think it's partly because politics has become very boring and alienating. People are used to this, so they either ignore it, or well, ignore it. People like Boris can play to this, as they offer a kind of clowncar, or a cartoon version, which people find amusing or diverting, or possibly, revolting. I don't think immigration is really about politics, it's something more atavistic, isn't it? The darkies are coming!

Yes, and this phenomenon is exactly which is pushing someone like Trump close to ruling the most powerful country in the world. The more we make fun of these individuals, and the more they are prepared to make off-the-wall statements then, consequently, the more mileage the clowncar seems capable of.

I think having a collectively bleak view of the future doesn't help, governments have bigged up climate change and terrorism yet neither of these has impacted hugely so far. It's created a fear of shadows thus opening a window through which marvericks and fantasies are now appearing.

--------------------
Change is the only certainty of existence

Posts: 3206 | From: U.K. | Registered: Dec 2011  |  IP: Logged
lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333

 - Posted      Profile for lilBuddha     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
The world becomes more complicated, but understanding fails to grow apace. Life is not getting better for a significant portion of the population. Understanding why is difficult, therefore it is easy to point and say, "It is because of them", whoever they may be.

--------------------
I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou

Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008  |  IP: Logged
rolyn
Shipmate
# 16840

 - Posted      Profile for rolyn         Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
The world becomes more complicated, but understanding fails to grow apace.

Something similar has been cited as having been the underlying ,and real cause of WW1.

--------------------
Change is the only certainty of existence

Posts: 3206 | From: U.K. | Registered: Dec 2011  |  IP: Logged
Alan Cresswell

Mad Scientist 先生
# 31

 - Posted      Profile for Alan Cresswell   Email Alan Cresswell   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Boris is getting increasingly out of touch. He's beginning to make Nigel Farage seem like the voice of reason in the Leave campaign.

I think it's wonderful that he's touring the country in a German-built bus, that would cost 13% more if we weren't in the EU (I wonder what the bus company think about that option when they come to the point of needing to replace the bus?). Turning up at a brewery which received a £50,000 EU grant for a new bottling line, and being surprised that they didn't endorse leaving the EU. Brandishing a pastie, protected by EU legislation from imitation by cheaper and inferior products.

Is he incapable of a little bit of research? I'm sure he could find businesses that have not benefited directly from EU membership, who will endorse his message. I'm sure he could find something emblematic of the region he's visiting that isn't a product protected by EU legislation. Even a bus that wouldn't cost the company that owns it an extra £50,000 to replace if we left. Surely if he's so sure that the EU is bad for the UK then he can find something to illustrate that? Surely it can't be that difficult?

--------------------
Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.

Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Dave W.
Shipmate
# 8765

 - Posted      Profile for Dave W.   Email Dave W.   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by chris stiles:
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:

And in just over a month the British will have a decision to make - do we meekly roll over and submit to their rule, or do we bloody well stop them again?

So what do you propose to do after that? Invade the continent as a pre-emptive measure?
Leave 'em to it. If all those other countries are happy to be ruled by Germany and France then that's their look out, but personally I'd prefer to see Britain ruled by the democratic will of the British people.
Wait, what? Just a few posts before this it was "And in just over a month the British will have a decision to make - do we meekly roll over and submit to their rule, or do we bloody well stop them again?" which sounded very determined indeed. Whatever happened to stopping the Germans and French from dominating the continent?
Posts: 2059 | From: the hub of the solar system | Registered: Nov 2004  |  IP: Logged
Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322

 - Posted      Profile for Enoch   Email Enoch   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Farage said this morning that if he loses the referendum by a small margin, it will show the country is divided and he'll insist it is run again. If he were to win by a small margin, would he insist it is run again because he wanted to make sure people agree with him?

--------------------
Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson

Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008  |  IP: Logged
Alan Cresswell

Mad Scientist 先生
# 31

 - Posted      Profile for Alan Cresswell   Email Alan Cresswell   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
If Leave win, can I insist that it's re-run if he doesn't?

--------------------
Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.

Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322

 - Posted      Profile for Enoch   Email Enoch   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Just as with him, you can insist but nobody will give you what you want.

--------------------
Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson

Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008  |  IP: Logged
Alan Cresswell

Mad Scientist 先生
# 31

 - Posted      Profile for Alan Cresswell   Email Alan Cresswell   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Then, I'll scream and scream until I'm sick.

Just like he will if he loses.

--------------------
Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.

Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641

 - Posted      Profile for chris stiles   Email chris stiles   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:

In fact, it may not be true in various areas, I mean the EU could be more reactionary than the UK government, but some people seem to see it the other way round.

Sure, and there is daily evidence that the current Tory party is fairly reactionary:

http://voxpoliticalonline.com/2016/05/15/duncan-smith-reveals-hope-to-bin-workers-rights-in-on-air-rant/

This on the back of making employer tribunals much more expensive - even in cases of sexual harrasment.

I think a lot of the Labour position is based around some form of internationalism though.

Posts: 4035 | From: Berkshire | Registered: May 2007  |  IP: Logged
rolyn
Shipmate
# 16840

 - Posted      Profile for rolyn         Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
I sense that, as in tug-o-war, Brexit are being offered a bit of slack.
Nothing like farage counting up unhatched eggs to get mr and Mrs cosy out of the chair and into the Remain camp.

--------------------
Change is the only certainty of existence

Posts: 3206 | From: U.K. | Registered: Dec 2011  |  IP: Logged
Rocinante
Shipmate
# 18541

 - Posted      Profile for Rocinante   Email Rocinante   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
So, looks like Nige and Boris have pretty much lost it...anyone heard from Gove recently? Or has he cut his losses and started a new career selling flat globes door-to-door?
Posts: 384 | From: UK | Registered: Jan 2016  |  IP: Logged
Martin60
Shipmate
# 368

 - Posted      Profile for Martin60   Email Martin60   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
The trouble is that there is a vast constituency of the lost in the US and UK.

--------------------
Love wins

Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Eirenist
Shipmate
# 13343

 - Posted      Profile for Eirenist         Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
The pollsters seem to be calculating that older voters will vote 'Leave'. I am 78, I remember the 1960s, and I don't want to go back there.

--------------------
'I think I think, therefore I think I am'

Posts: 486 | From: Darkest Metroland | Registered: Jan 2008  |  IP: Logged
Ronald Binge
Shipmate
# 9002

 - Posted      Profile for Ronald Binge     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
Farage said this morning that if he loses the referendum by a small margin, it will show the country is divided and he'll insist it is run again. If he were to win by a small margin, would he insist it is run again because he wanted to make sure people agree with him?

Hilarious when Farage and his mates made ham fisted interventions over the Irish Referenda, putting on Paddy Leprechaun hats and such nonsense. He can go and shove off with himself if Remain wins. Given the shrillness of Leave now, that seems more likely.

--------------------
Older, bearded (but no wiser)

Posts: 477 | From: Brexit's frontline | Registered: Jan 2005  |  IP: Logged



Pages in this thread: 1  2  3  ...  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  ...  35  36  37 
 
Post new thread  Post a reply Close thread   Feature thread   Move thread   Delete thread Next oldest thread   Next newest thread
 - Printer-friendly view
Go to:

Contact us | Ship of Fools | Privacy statement

© Ship of Fools 2016

Powered by Infopop Corporation
UBB.classicTM 6.5.0

 
follow ship of fools on twitter
buy your ship of fools postcards
sip of fools mugs from your favourite nautical website
 
 
  ship of fools