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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Purgatory: In, out, in, out; EU Referendum thread.
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Tubbs:
A vote to leave the EU would almost guarantee another (successful) independence vote.
That isn't guaranteed. Pressure for another independence referendum would build significantly if the UK government takes the UK out of the EU against the wishes of the people of Scotland. At present, however, the wishes of the people of Scotland on this matter have not been tested in recent years. It is assumed, on the basis of opinion polls, that the wishes of the people of Scotland are to remain in the EU. A referendum on EU membership will determine the wishes of the people of Scotland. If the referendum shows no significant difference between Scotland and the rest of the Uk then the argument that the UK government is acting against the wishes of the people of Scotland collapses (at least on this point), and with it the pressure for another referendum.
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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Dafyd
Shipmate
# 5549
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Posted
Leaving the EU wouldn't be a disaster. In the same way that the present government chipping away at the NHS and child support and the BBC isn't a disaster. The comfortably wealthy probably won't notice anything beyond a few more beggars on street corners and a few more niggles to grumble at about how things aren't the same as when they were young.
On the other hand, it would be small-minded, short-sighted, and self-centred.
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we remain, thanks to original sin, much in love with talking about, rather than with, one another. Rowan Williams
Posts: 10567 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Feb 2004
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ariel:
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
The U.K. imports much of its food, so why is having less control over those sources better?
How would there be less control over importing food?
A market is still a market. You can still buy from it, though you might not always get the members' discount.
I was thinking more along the lines of methods of production than price.
Though the EU currently have a better record in that than the UK, at least as far as pesticides, so...
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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betjemaniac
Shipmate
# 17618
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:
Originally posted by Ariel:
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
The U.K. imports much of its food, so why is having less control over those sources better?
How would there be less control over importing food?
A market is still a market. You can still buy from it, though you might not always get the members' discount.
I was thinking more along the lines of methods of production than price.
Though the EU currently have a better record in that than the UK, at least as far as pesticides, so...
An isolated rural dweller writes...
*some* pesticides, granted (the UK resistance to the EU's moves to ban nionics in particular was shameful).
On the other hand I'd back the UK's animal welfare and husbandry procedures* (certainly post BSE and foot and mouth) against anywhere in the EU including Germany and that's regardless of EU membership.
*I've deliberately left out slaughter. I think the transportation to the abattoir is fine, the conditions in the abattoir are EU leading, however the unintended consequences of the changes to mandated veterinary supervision levels post foot and mouth 2001 have decimated the local abattoir network to the extent that, IMO, we're now often taking beasts an unacceptably large distance to slaughter.
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And is it true? For if it is....
Posts: 1481 | From: behind the dreaming spires | Registered: Mar 2013
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Dafyd:
Leaving the EU wouldn't be a disaster. In the same way that the present government chipping away at the NHS and child support and the BBC isn't a disaster. The comfortably wealthy probably won't notice anything beyond a few more beggars on street corners and a few more niggles to grumble at about how things aren't the same as when they were young.
On the other hand, it would be small-minded, short-sighted, and self-centred.
Which would make a "Yes" vote for "Out" a foregone conclusion. Sorry if my irony detectors are on the blink.
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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Ricardus
Shipmate
# 8757
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Matt Black:
1. Is this a 'deal' at all? Has Cameron actually secured anything of substance even if everyone else agrees it in a fortnight - will it make any difference?
He's got a piece of paper to wave. Thus, nobody can say he broke his promise.
quote:
2. Should Cameron perhaps have concentrated more on negotiations aimed at reforming core EU institutions to eg: address the democratic deficit inherent in the EU stuctures?
Not if he wants a deal within the lifetime of this Parliament - or his own lifetime for that matter.
Mr Cameron's strategy, I think, is to get it over with as soon as possible with the minimum chance of debate. If people are scared and confused, they will tend to vote for the status quo.
I predict the outcome will be a 60-40 vote for In. The Out campaigners will feel victims of a stitch-up and bide their time for the next EU crisis, at which point they will say there's been a substantive change and the referendum should be re-run. That, however, will be a problem for Mr Osborne or Mr Johnson.
FWIW, although I'm uneasy about the democratic deficit, it does have one advantage over promoting the EU Parliament into a Westminster-style democracy - in that under the current set-up, every country is represented in the executive. If the executive was just whatever body commanded a majority of Parliamentary support, some countries could go entirely unrepresented in it.
quote:
3. Will the other member states sign up to the deal and, if so, at what price? Will Greece, for example, demand a further debt 'haircut' and/ or greater help with the refugee crisis?
Awkward. The problem is that Mr Cameron's natural allies are in Eastern Europe and they are the very people he is pissing off with his migrant benefit policies.
That said, 'ever closer union' has been pretty much killed off by the Greek crisis and the refugee crisis, and the concomittant petty nationalism, without any help from Mr Cameron.
quote:
4. Who will lead the 'out' campaign in the UK? Who should?
Jeremy Corbyn.
Only kidding ... but Sipech mentioned the point about strange bedfellows, which makes it hard for the Outs to coalesce around a single figure. (That plus Mr Farage's steadily slipping grasp on reality.)
quote:
5. Will the timing of the referendum affect the outcome eg: if in summer at the peak of the 'Mediterranean crossing season', will that queer the pitch?
If Mr Cameron can get it to coincide with some other elections he can reduce the chance of coherent debate still further -- see point 2.
quote:
6. Finally, but perhaps most importantly, how would you vote?
In.
Not that I have any great enthusiasm for the EU, but I would feel an Out vote to be a betrayal of my Czech father-in-law and the Polish couple who are to be the godparents of my child.
[ 04. February 2016, 20:23: Message edited by: Ricardus ]
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Then the dog ran before, and coming as if he had brought the news, shewed his joy by his fawning and wagging his tail. -- Tobit 11:9 (Douai-Rheims)
Posts: 7247 | From: Liverpool, UK | Registered: Nov 2004
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Tubbs
Miss Congeniality
# 440
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Posted
1. Is this a 'deal' at all? Has Cameron actually secured anything of substance even if everyone else agrees it in a fortnight - will it make any difference?
It’s probably as much as they could have hoped for under the circumstances. Some of the OUT campaign members seem to have completely unrealistic expectations of the kind of things you get in these kind of negotiations.
2. Should Cameron perhaps have concentrated more on negotiations aimed at reforming core EU institutions to eg: address the democratic deficit inherent in the EU structures?
That’s a longer term discussion as some of that would involve looking at the treaties that people signed when the EU was first set up. All the stuff about closer integration was in the small and big print. However, we’re living in very different times now. We’re not the only EU member who’s looking at what we signed up for and wondering if it’s time for a rethink. Problem is, I don’t think Cameron is the kind of politician that does those kinds of deals.
3. Will the other member states sign up to the deal and, if so, at what price? Will Greece, for example, demand a further debt 'haircut' and/ or greater help with the refugee crisis?
If Cameron’s able to convince them that there’s something in it for them, I don’t see why not!
4. Who will lead the 'out' campaign in the UK? Who should?
Nigel is likely to push all the other candidates down the lift shaft if he thought they were stealing the job he’d been auditioning for during his entire political career. My one joy if the UK does leave will be watching all those greedy UKIP fuckwits who’ve been merrily milking the EU system they claim to despise suddenly realising that they’re unemployed and in need of a proper job!
5. Will the timing of the referendum affect the outcome eg: if in summer at the peak of the 'Mediterranean crossing season', will that queer the pitch?
As the key issue for many is immigration, then having it during the peak season might not be helpful. OTH, the IN camp need to be better at pointing out that a) there are a large number of British migrants elsewhere in the EU who are claiming benefits, taking jobs etc. If the UK had to fund them, it would add a lot more to the benefits bill than we’re currently paying out.
The other problem is the complete disconnect between people’s attitudes to their own migration rights – as many people believe they should have the right to settle and work anywhere in the EU they like. OTH, the same people don’t want those pesky migrants coming here and doing the same!
6. Finally, but perhaps most importantly, how would you vote?
I’ll be voting IN. Partly because I couldn’t look some of my friends in the face if I didn’t. And partly because I work in a sector that depends on the UK having access to the EU single market. Yes, I’m all about the self interest!
I’ve no problems with people who believe we should leave the EU on ideological grounds, but the OUT camp needs to front up to the fact that there will be consequences and not all of them will be great. Sectors heavily dependent on EU investment and membership – agriculture, science, infrastructure, manufacturing, financial services etc – are going to lose jobs and investment. Leaving the EU won’t do the UK any favours economically.
Tubbs
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"It's better to keep your mouth shut and be thought a fool than open it up and remove all doubt" - Dennis Thatcher. My blog. Decide for yourself which I am
Posts: 12701 | From: Someplace strange | Registered: Jun 2001
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
It looks like a Cameron win on this, as most of the big beasts in the Tory party are falling into line. I don't think this is because of the overpowering strength of his argument, but because of internal dynamics in the Tory party. This is part of my annoyance, that we are all being roped into this internal struggle, that is, to neutralize the skeptics. I am tempted to vote Out just to register my annoyance, but that is probably pointless.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Matt Black
Shipmate
# 2210
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Posted
FTR, unless anything humungously spectacular happens between now and whenever the referendum is, I shall vote to stay but I would really really like to see more democratic accountability within the EU institutions; if that has to come at the price of diminishing the powers of the member states, so be it.
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"Protestant and Reformed, according to the Tradition of the ancient Catholic Church" - + John Cosin (1594-1672)
Posts: 14304 | From: Hampshire, UK | Registered: Jan 2002
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Ricardus
Shipmate
# 8757
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Tubbs:
The other problem is the complete disconnect between people’s attitudes to their own migration rights – as many people believe they should have the right to settle and work anywhere in the EU they like. OTH, the same people don’t want those pesky migrants coming here and doing the same!
I will admit to finding a certain dark humour in Viktor Orbán complaining that Mr Cameron was discussing migrant workers as though they were vermin ...
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Then the dog ran before, and coming as if he had brought the news, shewed his joy by his fawning and wagging his tail. -- Tobit 11:9 (Douai-Rheims)
Posts: 7247 | From: Liverpool, UK | Registered: Nov 2004
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Rocinante
Shipmate
# 18541
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
It looks like a Cameron win on this, as most of the big beasts in the Tory party are falling into line. I don't think this is because of the overpowering strength of his argument, but because of internal dynamics in the Tory party. This is part of my annoyance, that we are all being roped into this internal struggle, that is, to neutralize the skeptics. I am tempted to vote Out just to register my annoyance, but that is probably pointless.
Me too! I'm generally in favour of EU membership (not as much as I used to be), but I resent being co-opted into saving Cameron's career and party.
The polls (for what they're worth this far out) are showing a slight lead for "remain", but we now know that Tory voters are under-represented in polling samples. As they tend to be more euro-sceptic, I wouldn't rule out a surprise vote to "leave" whenever this wretched referendum (neverendum?) is finally held.
I'm torn...my head says "leaving would be a really stupid, retrograde step", but it would be such fun to see Cameron resign in ignominy, then sit back and observe the subsequent succession battle/civil war/split. Redwood vs Corbyn in 2020 perhaps? Last time I checked you could get 8 to 1 on Jez to win the next general election....
Posts: 384 | From: UK | Registered: Jan 2016
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Anglican't
Shipmate
# 15292
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Posted
It appears that there is a significant minority (perhaps even a small majority, who knows?) who are unhappy with our membership of the EU. If, in the modern political age, we're going to have referendums on things like a Welsh Assembly and a Mayor of London, a referendum on EU membership seems fair enough.
Posts: 3613 | From: London, England | Registered: Nov 2009
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Rocinante
Shipmate
# 18541
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Posted
I wasn't necessarily objecting to the referendum itself, although I do consider them undemocratic (which is why dictators have always been so keen on them.) Most people are either too busy or too lazy to engage properly with the issues and cast their vote on the basis of rival personalities; witness the AV referendum a few years ago when it was portrayed as something that nasty Nick Clegg wanted.
Posts: 384 | From: UK | Registered: Jan 2016
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:
It appears that there is a significant minority (perhaps even a small majority, who knows?) who are unhappy with our membership of the EU. If, in the modern political age, we're going to have referendums on things like a Welsh Assembly and a Mayor of London, a referendum on EU membership seems fair enough.
If there's a problem which the "out" campaign have to address it is to present a realistic alternative that is more than wish list. I'm sure they will suggest the UK has the same sort of arrangement as the non-EU members of the EEA have but some sharp questioning about what these countries (Iceland, Norway and Liechtenstein) plus Switzerland, have to do to maintain their membership of the EEA will liven up the debate no end.
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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Dafyd
Shipmate
# 5549
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Rocinante:
it would be such fun to see Cameron resign in ignominy, then sit back and observe the subsequent succession battle/civil war/split.
Cameron has already said that he has no intention of resigning whatever the result.
He said the same about Scottish Independence; one might think this was his major contribution to keeping Scotland in the UK.
[ 09. February 2016, 19:23: Message edited by: Dafyd ]
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we remain, thanks to original sin, much in love with talking about, rather than with, one another. Rowan Williams
Posts: 10567 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Feb 2004
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Rocinante
Shipmate
# 18541
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Posted
As Cameron has also said he will not serve another full parliamentary term, if the referendum result goes against him he will be the lamest of lame ducks. He'll find a bottle of whisky and a revolver on his desk.
Posts: 384 | From: UK | Registered: Jan 2016
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OddJob
Shipmate
# 17591
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Posted
Have any other shipmates actually worked on one or more EU-funded projects? I have, and it's turned me from a onetime waverer to a hardline sceptic, questioning if there's a single core EU function that couldn't be handled more efficiently and accountably by national governments.
Posts: 97 | From: West Midlands | Registered: Mar 2013
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
For me, two Framework projects. Neither of which would have been possible without relatively modest EU funding (accounting for maybe 20% of total costs, the rest being met by assorted national funding from assorted sources in different countries). The EU Framework provided enough to get people together who would otherwise either not met, or if they had met would never have managed to organise a multi-national research project.
A fair amount of bureaucracy that we found many of our partners struggled with (ie: they were not used to having to file receipts for all expenses), but was nothing more than would be required of UK funded research.
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
OddJob: Have any other shipmates actually worked on one or more EU-funded projects?
I have, a lot. I have the feeling that the bureaucratic part of it has gotten better over the past 15 years.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
I won a call for tender for an EU-funded project and have worked for many more.
The bureaucracy is mind-numbing but as Alan says, I'm not convinced it would be any simpler within any other organisation.
The experience has made me more pro-EU. One agenda of Interreg projects is to get elites working cross-culturally and this has certainly been a big part of the experience for those involved.
I was also completely unaware beforehand of how much local communities can and do benefit from EU funding: I think one of the biggest weaknesses of the EU is its poor PR.
But then again, I'm in France, steeped in the political ethos of "European Union", whereas those in the UK were sold the prospect of a "Common Market" - a very different notion.
(I'm old enough to remember the last UK referendum on this subject and convinced the Yes campaign won because the lapel badges were cool)
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Matt Black
Shipmate
# 2210
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Posted
Has anyone promoting the idea of a Brexit considered what might happen to the hundreds of thousands of British ex-pats living in other EU member states in the event of a 'Leave' vote? There's an article in the 'Guardian' here and there was also one in this morning's 'Independent' to which I can't yet link referring to the potential impact on British pensioners living in EU states who might have to return to the UK with the resultant strain on housing and social care...
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"Protestant and Reformed, according to the Tradition of the ancient Catholic Church" - + John Cosin (1594-1672)
Posts: 14304 | From: Hampshire, UK | Registered: Jan 2002
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
I think this is just another example of how the technical implications of a Brexit have not been thought out at all - much like Scottish independence, perhaps?
In the linked article, I also note this quote from a Brit in France quote:
“I live near Ypres, a part of the world that was flattened during the first world war, in the war to end all wars, and the EU has a particular importance for people. They don’t understand this in the UK because they’ve never been occupied.”
I entirely agree with this view. It wasn't until I saw a wartime photograph of a Wehrmacht soldier in front of the little-changed frontage of the local equivalent of BHS that this difference of perception due to the Occupation came home to me.
(Unlike her, however, I already have two passports. My decision to apply for French nationality was spurred by Le Pen père making it through to the second round of the presidential election in 2002).
[ 10. February 2016, 10:05: Message edited by: Eutychus ]
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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la vie en rouge
Parisienne
# 10688
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Posted
If Britain leaves the EU, I will most definitely be applying for a French passport. I will probably wait a while until I become eligible to apply on the basis of being married to a French person (you can apply after four years of marriage) because the process is simpler. Nonetheless, in the current climate, “get French nationality” is definitely on my to-do list.
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Rent my holiday home in the South of France
Posts: 3696 | Registered: Nov 2005
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
In the linked article, I also note this quote from a Brit in France quote:
“I live near Ypres, a part of the world that was flattened during the first world war, in the war to end all wars, and the EU has a particular importance for people. They don’t understand this in the UK because they’ve never been occupied.”
I entirely agree with this view. It wasn't until I saw a wartime photograph of a Wehrmacht soldier in front of the little-changed frontage of the local equivalent of BHS that this difference of perception due to the Occupation came home to me.
Or to put it another way, the EU prevents Germany (and to a lesser extent France) from going to war for control of the continent by just handing it to them on a silver platter instead.
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Matt Black:
There's an article in the 'Guardian' here
There's something about people who haven't lived here for decades and have no intention of doing so in the future calling themselves "British to the core" that makes me feel quite angry. How can you be "British to the core" if you don't even want to live in Britain?
If you want to live in Italy for the rest of your life, become Italian. If you want to live in France for the rest of your life, become French. And if the only reason you want Britain to stay in the EU is so that you can take up permanent residence somewhere else without having to jump through a few bureaucratic hoops then forgive me if I'm less than sympathetic to your cause.
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
Although the structures of the EU are designed to prevent that (or, at least, significantly curtail the influence of the larger nations within Europe). Which is why, though I would want reform of those structures to increase democratic accountability, any reform has to be very carefully considered. A European Parliament with members approximately proportional to population will be heavily skewed in favour of the larger nations. Removal of the requirement for unanimous agreement in the Council of Ministers removes some opportunities for smaller countries to influence the whole. By and large I think the EU does a not bad job of balancing the interests of all the nations which comprise it.
There is, IMO, an exception to that. The Euro has been heavily biased towards supporting the German and French economic interests, and I think there were some mistakes made in introducing the currency - not least that one of the biggest economies in Europe stayed out.
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
Marvin the Martian: If you want to live in Italy for the rest of your life, become Italian. If you want to live in France for the rest of your life, become French.
So what am I?
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by la vie en rouge:
If Britain leaves the EU, I will most definitely be applying for a French passport. I will probably wait a while until I become eligible to apply on the basis of being married to a French person (you can apply after four years of marriage) because the process is simpler. Nonetheless, in the current climate, “get French nationality” is definitely on my to-do list.
Yes - the same is true for my son in Germany, he has been there for six years now. It'll be sad if it comes to that 'tho.
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
The Euro has been heavily biased towards supporting the German and French economic interests
Yes, an entire continent being heavily biased towards their economic interests is exactly what I meant by them controlling it. And if we were part of the Euro then our economy would now be being run for their benefit as well.
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
quote:
Marvin the Martian: If you want to live in Italy for the rest of your life, become Italian. If you want to live in France for the rest of your life, become French.
So what am I?
No idea - where do you want to live for the rest of your life?
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
Marvin the Martian: No idea - where do you want to live for the rest of your life?
At the moment, I'm living in 4 or 5 countries at the same time and it's going to stay like this for a while. When I get older, I'll eventually want to retire in Brazil.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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Anglican't
Shipmate
# 15292
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by Matt Black:
There's an article in the 'Guardian' here
There's something about people who haven't lived here for decades and have no intention of doing so in the future calling themselves "British to the core" that makes me feel quite angry. How can you be "British to the core" if you don't even want to live in Britain?
Oh I get that. There have been plenty of people throughout history who consider themselves British but have lived overseas. In the Dominions, to give one example.
But what I don't get is that these people talk as if no Briton ever lived on the continent before 1972. We have, obviously.
Posts: 3613 | From: London, England | Registered: Nov 2009
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
The Euro has been heavily biased towards supporting the German and French economic interests
Yes, an entire continent being heavily biased towards their economic interests is exactly what I meant by them controlling it. And if we were part of the Euro then our economy would now be being run for their benefit as well.
It's a case of "what if"'s.
The Euro was established by treaty, the terms of that treaty did not need to be what they are. If the UK had entered into Euro currency project maybe the negotiations would have taken a different course. And, if the Scandinavian countries had joined in, things might have been different yet again. Who knows? We can't turn back the clock and set things up differently. But, maybe from inside the EU the UK could still have an influence over the future direction of the EU.
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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Anglican't
Shipmate
# 15292
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
But, maybe from inside the EU the UK could still have an influence over the future direction of the EU.
It's a nice aspiration. The Europhile MP Sarah Wollaston today said:
quote:
David Cameron was right that the EU will need further reform but if this [David Cameron's deal] is the best that can be grudgingly conceded when there is a serious risk of a British exit, what chance of any meaningful further reform if and when we are tied-in long term by the referendum?
Today she backed Brexit (and I would link to her blog on this at drsarah.org.uk, but for some reason this site isn't having it).
[ 10. February 2016, 17:39: Message edited by: Anglican't ]
Posts: 3613 | From: London, England | Registered: Nov 2009
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
The Euro has been heavily biased towards supporting the German and French economic interests
Yes, an entire continent being heavily biased towards their economic interests is exactly what I meant by them controlling it. And if we were part of the Euro then our economy would now be being run for their benefit as well.
OK, I get the idea you don't want to be in the EU. What alternative do you propose? Do you really think we can get an EEA or Swiss deal? If not, we will be in a far worse situation and may as well ask Washington if the USA govern us, reversing the arrangement devised back in the eighteenth century.
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
If you want to live in Italy for the rest of your life, become Italian. If you want to live in France for the rest of your life, become French.
It is this very nationalist attitude that makes what you say impossible. Gaining an Italian citizenship doesn't make one Italian in any cultural or social way. You are always where you came from in the eyes of everyone else.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
Anglican't: (and I would link to her blog on this at drsarah.org.uk, but for some reason this site isn't having it).
It's the Ship's political filter ![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
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Anglican't
Shipmate
# 15292
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
Do you really think we can get an EEA or Swiss deal? If not, we will be in a far worse situation and may as well ask Washington if the USA govern us, reversing the arrangement devised back in the eighteenth century.
We're the fifth largest economy in the world, why would European countries not want to trade with us?
Posts: 3613 | From: London, England | Registered: Nov 2009
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
Do you really think we can get an EEA or Swiss deal? If not, we will be in a far worse situation and may as well ask Washington if the USA govern us, reversing the arrangement devised back in the eighteenth century.
We're the fifth largest economy in the world, why would European countries not want to trade with us?
We're only a "big economy" because people trade with us, and most of that trade is financial. If we leave the EU a lot of European companies will put more trade through Frankfurt.
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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Anglican't
Shipmate
# 15292
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
Do you really think we can get an EEA or Swiss deal? If not, we will be in a far worse situation and may as well ask Washington if the USA govern us, reversing the arrangement devised back in the eighteenth century.
We're the fifth largest economy in the world, why would European countries not want to trade with us?
We're only a "big economy" because people trade with us, and most of that trade is financial. If we leave the EU a lot of European companies will put more trade through Frankfurt.
People said exactly this sort of thing when we were thinking about whether or not to join the Euro.
Posts: 3613 | From: London, England | Registered: Nov 2009
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
Yes, an entire continent being heavily biased towards their economic interests is exactly what I meant by them controlling it. And if we were part of the Euro then our economy would now be being run for their benefit as well.
German and French companies (state-owned companies, some of them) own and run a significant part of our infrastructure already, with the profits made from UK tax payers heading abroad.
That ship sailed along time ago under the flag of privatisation, and has nothing at all to do with the Euro.
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Forward the New Republic
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
Yes, it's rather funny that the same people who say "we should get out of the EU lest the French and Germans control our things" are usually eager to privatise stuff and sell it to the same French and Germans.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
If you want to live in Italy for the rest of your life, become Italian. If you want to live in France for the rest of your life, become French.
It is this very nationalist attitude that makes what you say impossible. Gaining an Italian citizenship doesn't make one Italian in any cultural or social way. You are always where you came from in the eyes of everyone else.
I love this line of argument. If you're right then those cultural and social differences are why any desire to see the EU as anything more than a free trade zone is a nonsense, which is what I'm arguing. And if you're wrong then I'm right. Way to give me a win-win situation ![[Smile]](smile.gif) .
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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Tukai
Shipmate
# 12960
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Gaining an Italian citizenship doesn't make one Italian in any cultural or social way. You are always where you came from in the eyes of everyone else.
Fortunately this is not true in Australia, where about 30% of the population was born overseas (including my wife who was born in Britain) FWIW, while still living in UK she voted for Britain to join the Common Market, way back in 1974.
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A government that panders to the worst instincts of its people degrades the whole country for years to come.
Posts: 594 | From: Oz | Registered: Sep 2007
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
Yes, an entire continent being heavily biased towards their economic interests is exactly what I meant by them controlling it. And if we were part of the Euro then our economy would now be being run for their benefit as well.
German and French companies (state-owned companies, some of them) own and run a significant part of our infrastructure already, with the profits made from UK tax payers heading abroad.
The difference between a foreign company winning a competitive bidding process and being awarded a franchise to run some of our trains for a few years and a foreign country telling us what we can and can't do with our entire currency and economy is large enough to drive a whole fleet of buses through.
It's the difference between BP having contracts to extract, refine and sell oil in the USA and the UK government having overall control of what happens in Washington. Since the USA is fine with one and fought a war to end the other, I'd say that's a difference that actually matters.
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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Matt Black
Shipmate
# 2210
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by Matt Black:
There's an article in the 'Guardian' here
There's something about people who haven't lived here for decades and have no intention of doing so in the future calling themselves "British to the core" that makes me feel quite angry. How can you be "British to the core" if you don't even want to live in Britain?
Oh I get that. There have been plenty of people throughout history who consider themselves British but have lived overseas. In the Dominions, to give one example.
But what I don't get is that these people talk as if no Briton ever lived on the continent before 1972. We have, obviously.
Yes, but with nowhere near the same perks that we do now re: benefits, access to healthcare, free movement, etc
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"Protestant and Reformed, according to the Tradition of the ancient Catholic Church" - + John Cosin (1594-1672)
Posts: 14304 | From: Hampshire, UK | Registered: Jan 2002
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la vie en rouge
Parisienne
# 10688
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Posted
Marvin, I think you misunderstand me; when I say I am seriously looking at applying for French nationality, it's not because I'm afraid of not being able to stay here. They'll never send me back anyway because I have availed myself of that time-honoured way of staying in a country of which one is not a citizen i.e. marry a native.
If I apply for a French passport, it will be because I consider there are major advantages to being a citizen of an EU member state and I don't wish to lose them. If my British passport no longer makes me an EU citizen, I shall get a French one.
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Rent my holiday home in the South of France
Posts: 3696 | Registered: Nov 2005
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Firenze
Ordinary decent pagan
# 619
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by la vie en rouge:
If I apply for a French passport, it will be because I consider there are major advantages to being a citizen of an EU member state and I don't wish to lose them. If my British passport no longer makes me an EU citizen, I shall get a French one.
And I will take up my right to an Irish one. Though a Scottish one might also become available. If anything would bring on another Indie ref hereabouts, it would be a vote to leave the EU.
Posts: 17302 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Jun 2001
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by la vie en rouge:
If I apply for a French passport, it will be because I consider there are major advantages to being a citizen of an EU member state and I don't wish to lose them. If my British passport no longer makes me an EU citizen, I shall get a French one.
I'm annoyed. My brothers and their families can get Irish passports (different father). I think my wife and our children can too thanks to her father and forebears and I think my wife and our youngest can get Maltese passports since we entered the EU.
Looks like I'm lumbered. Would I rather be a citizen or a subject?
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by la vie en rouge:
If I apply for a French passport, it will be because I consider there are major advantages to being a citizen of an EU member state and I don't wish to lose them.
Can you list these advantages for me? I'm going to assume freedom of movement within the EU is one*, but what are the others?
.
*= Though it's not one I value particularly highly. I have no intention of leaving Britain for anything longer than a holiday, and if I ever had to emigrate then I'd want to go somewhere where they speak English. Probably New Zealand. As for holidays, I can't see that going to France or Italy would suddenly become any more difficult than going to places like Cuba, Egypt, Morocco or Mexico.
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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