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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Purgatory: In, out, in, out; EU Referendum thread.
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by OddJob:
But is the EU itself any better? Where is its strategic vision for the next few years? Faced with an existential crisis, it seems unable to sell itself or communicate any evidence of a clear direction
There isn't any strategic vision or clear direction. It's the nature of the union. A vague aspiration to "ever greater union". But, many voices calling for the EU to move in different directions. There is no European government, the very structures of the EU are designed to prevent any individual or nation to take control and lead the EU. The structures are for consensus politics, not leadership by a minority.
The EU is not a government. It should not be paraded as a failure to govern when that is not, never has been, the nature of the institutions.
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
The EU is not a government. It should not be paraded as a failure to govern when that is not, never has been, the nature of the institutions.
Moreover, the more Eurosceptic Europeans don't want it to be a government. With the refugee crisis, the UK is actively stymieing efforts on a coordinated approach.
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Forward the New Republic
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
It's quite funny talking about strategic vision when looking at this referendum. The whole thing is a dog's breakfast, and convinces me that referenda are not the way to govern.
I suppose there is a macabre humour in watching the whole idiotic pantomime of it, full of lies and fakery. It reminds me of 'Versailles', but with less sex and lace.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
It reminds me of 'Versailles', but with less sex and lace.
I'm sure Boris has more than enough of that to even things out...
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Forward the New Republic
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
I was just reading an interview in the Guardian with people in Sunderland, many of them favouring Leave, and often citing immigration - they're taking all our jobs.
Then the writer mentioned in passing that Sunderland has 3% foreign residents!
Yet, in London, which is round about 50% foreign, I think Remain will have a strong vote.
So really, Leave are harvesting plenty of disgruntled people, who are living possibly in poor areas, with crap jobs, low wages, and all of this dissatisfaction is focusing on the EU.
Well, that's how politics works, I guess, but it shows the ways in which referenda are very imprecise instruments.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
I was just reading an interview in the Guardian with people in Sunderland, many of them favouring Leave, and often citing immigration - they're taking all our jobs.
Then the writer mentioned in passing that Sunderland has 3% foreign residents!
This isn't uncommon though - a lot (not all) of the places that are most anti-immigration don't have a particularly large amount of immigration.
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
The other thing I keep noticing is that when there are reports about a certain town, with immigrants coming in, there is often a shy little rider that unemployment is going down. I've noticed this with reports on Oldham, Peterborough, and Stratford.
Incredibly, there was a business man on TV from Stratford (on Avon), who said, oh yes, we have very low unemployment, and I employ Polish workers, but I think we should leave the EU. Eh? How does that work?
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by chris stiles:
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
I was just reading an interview in the Guardian with people in Sunderland, many of them favouring Leave, and often citing immigration - they're taking all our jobs.
Then the writer mentioned in passing that Sunderland has 3% foreign residents!
This isn't uncommon though - a lot (not all) of the places that are most anti-immigration don't have a particularly large amount of immigration.
IIRC Nissan has a big car factory in Sunderland. If Britain leaves the EU Nissan will pull that factory out in no more time than it takes to go through the formalities. Access to the EU is a big factor for companies investing in the UK.
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
Yeah, but the fuzzy-wuzzies are here, and we don't like them, cos they're brown and smelly, and do that weird prayer thing on their knees.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
Sunderland has historically significant support for far-right causes, NF, BNP, UKIP and Britain First, even though there are very few brown people in the North East of England - most of our immigrants are white.
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Forward the New Republic
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Raptor Eye
Shipmate
# 16649
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Posted
I haven't read through this thread as it's too long, but thought I'd throw my current thoughts into the mixture:
Like most of the people I know, I want to freely trade with Europe but don't want political union, no United States of Europe or president of Europe. I don't think that it is good for democracy - not that I think that ours is perfect, but we are in theory supposed to be represented. We know who our MP's are, and know we can throw them out if enough people want to.
The last time I wanted to raise an issue with my Euro-MP, firstly I had trouble finding out who was supposed to be representing me, then when I contacted him I was never given the courtesy of a reply.
If we have had any influence at all in Europe, why are the accounts still not good enough to pass an audit?
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Be still, and know that I am God! Psalm 46.10
Posts: 4359 | From: The United Kingdom | Registered: Sep 2011
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Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Raptor Eye:
We know who our MP's are, and know we can throw them out if enough people want to.
The last time I wanted to raise an issue with my Euro-MP, firstly I had trouble finding out who was supposed to be representing me, then when I contacted him I was never given the courtesy of a reply.
I'm not sure quite how the failure of your Euro-MP to answer a letter somehow damns the EU. Nor do I see why you don't know him any better than your MP, or why you can't try to throw him out and get the numbers behind you.
Apart from our local councillors, we all have our State and Federal MPs - know who they are and also know how to try to keep them in their position/throw them out should we want to. The fact that Madame and I think little of either our State or Federal MPs, and have Buckley's of getting them out of office is irrelevant to the existence of our system of government.
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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
Posts: 7028 | From: Warrawee NSW Australia | Registered: Jun 2008
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Raptor Eye:
Like most of the people I know, I want to freely trade with Europe but don't want political union, no United States of Europe or president of Europe. I don't think that it is good for democracy
Though it should be noted that the options on the 23rd of June don't include a United States of Europe. The EU we have is much more than a free trade area, although most of what the EU does relates to trade.
As I've said several times, the EU is not a government, and the current structures are totally unsuited to forming a government. I would agree that if there was a move to form a European government based on the current structures then we'll have a total disaster, it would not be good for democracy or anything else. But, even the minority who advocate a European government recognise that and their aspirations (which aren't even in the form of a plan) would include changes to the European structures - starting with the formation of pan-European political parties. If the EU makes a proposal to change their structures (eg: replace either the Commission of Council with an elected Senate, or give more powers to the Parliament so that the leader of the largest party may be elected as a Prime Minister) then that would be a reasonable basis to call a referendum where one of the options would be movement towards a European government.
quote:
The last time I wanted to raise an issue with my Euro-MP, firstly I had trouble finding out who was supposed to be representing me, then when I contacted him I was never given the courtesy of a reply.
It's no harder to find your MEP than your MP, here's the relevant page (if you don't happen to know that link, then Google "find my MEP"). Of course, because the election is for regional representatives by PR, you have several MEPs you could contact (8 in London, 6 in Scotland etc). So, you can pick the one you think is most likely to represent your views to contact - or email all of them. We all have had times when we've written to our MP and not got a reply, at least with several MEPs the chances of one of them replying are increased.
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
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SusanDoris
Incurable Optimist
# 12618
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Posted
Listening (on BBC Five Live) to Question Time last night, I was able to be quite relaxed! ![[Smile]](smile.gif) Hilary Benn was strong of course, and Eddie Izzard was clear about the need for continued increasing communication and co-operation in the world, not for breaking up into smaller groups. I've recently finished listening to 'Sapiens' by Yuval Noah Harari and although I would like to argue with him on quite a few points here and there, I think he has it right when he says that the world is a sort of global empire .
I shall be on my way to Perth on the 24th, so I hope the flight attendants will be keeping up to date with referendum results!
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I know that you believe that you understood what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
FT Poll of Polls link
Brexit betting odds.
Well, the bookie's odds will reflect what bets have been made already. The general rule is that the undecided who vote normally vote for the status quo, but this has been a weird campaign.
I'd say this is going to be close, with Remain a slight favourite.
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
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rolyn
Shipmate
# 16840
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Posted
Didn't think Remain came out of that Telly thing very well last night. Boris took a couple veiled insults on the chin and avoided the temptation to hit back.
The three females on the Remain side were getting more flustered than the two on Leave. Remain didn't have much of an answer to the claim that the EU is a failed experiment. I get a feeling that many folks are looking considerably further ahead than the next couple of years, and this does look like a chink in the Remain armour.
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Change is the only certainty of existence
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
If anyone is interested the Beast of Bolsover has come over for Leaving the EU.
It might persuade some Labour supporters to vote Leave, but others might not want to be on the same side as Dennis Skinner for anything.
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
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Ariel
Shipmate
# 58
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
I'd say this is going to be close, with Remain a slight favourite.
Yes, though for "close" read "on a knife edge". I'll probably tune in to 5 Live at some point in the small hours to find out how things are going.
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Raptor Eye
Shipmate
# 16649
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Posted
Thank you to those who gave me something to think about following my post, it will help to move me on a bit. This whole 'debate' seems to be one big rut in which the wheels are going around and around.
After the last election, I would not trust the polls. Nor should I. This is too important for a reaction vote.
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Be still, and know that I am God! Psalm 46.10
Posts: 4359 | From: The United Kingdom | Registered: Sep 2011
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Rocinante
Shipmate
# 18541
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Posted
I've been thinking about possible business opportunities following Brexit. (It's an ill wind...) It'll certainly be a boom time for lawyers with international clients and insolvency practitioners. For those with money to invest, there should be bargains to be had in European property when British ex-pats are forced to sell up and come home due to the collapse of reciprocal health care agreements (or are just re-defined as illegal migrants and deported).
People smuggling looks like the most lucrative proposition to me - all you will need to do is provide your clients with one-way bus tickets from Dublin to Belfast.
Posts: 384 | From: UK | Registered: Jan 2016
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Ariel
Shipmate
# 58
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Posted
Vote Leave have just put a leaflet through my door. The punchline is "Imagine the question was the other way round. Would you vote to join the European Union? If not, Vote Leave."
Pause for thought.
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rolyn
Shipmate
# 16840
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Posted
Quite possibly. An ill wind and all that.
Many, including myself, are under no illusion that even in the unlikely event of a Brexit victory that the rich won't continue to get richer and the poor poorer.
Coming to the polls and the Referendum being a close call. This is probably hype. I always thought it likely that Remain will take it 70/30, maybe 60/40 if something unforeseen causes a late public mood swing favouring the Leave Campaign.
X posted
[ 10. June 2016, 21:39: Message edited by: rolyn ]
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Change is the only certainty of existence
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rolyn
Shipmate
# 16840
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Posted
Might be eating my own words already because there is a poll out tonight giving Leave a 10 point lead.
Crazily enough Boris with his promise of blood, toil tears and sweat could just knock Dave's scaremongering into a cocked hat. Now we know why JC is a little non- plussed, maybe he can visualise a crater where the Tory party used to be.
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Change is the only certainty of existence
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by rolyn:
Might be eating my own words already because there is a poll out tonight giving Leave a 10 point lead.
Crazily enough Boris with his promise of blood, toil tears and sweat could just knock Dave's scaremongering into a cocked hat. Now we know why JC is a little non- plussed, maybe he can visualise a crater where the Tory party used to be.
Remember that it will be *our* blood, *our* toil, *our* tears and *our* sweat. Boris and his pals won't bleed, work, cry or sweat, oh dear no.
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
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M.
Ship's Spare Part
# 3291
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Posted
Reciprocal health care agreements are not an EU thing - We have them with a lot of other countries.
M.
Posts: 2303 | From: Lurking in Surrey | Registered: Sep 2002
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
@ Stetson
Nice ironic link title. I'm not sure Boris would take kindly to having a exit supporters allied to the Temperance society. Mind you, I'm not impressed with Boris's egotistical Churchillian rhetoric either.
Regretfully it does begin to look as though Leave has got the momentum.
I think Dennis the Beast of Bolsover is channelling the ghost of the late Tony Benn. There's something sad about him finding himself in the same bed as Nigel Farrage.
Maybe that home in Mull is in my future after all? Much as that would be delightful I really wouldn't wish on any of us in the UK the dog's breakfast which will follow a Leave vote. Not even bloody Cameron.
(edited for text correction. My iPhone corrected Brexit to "a refit" - which made me chuckle)
[ 11. June 2016, 07:55: Message edited by: Barnabas62 ]
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
Of course, if madness descends and the Brexit is a majority we can negotiate reciprocal healthcare arrangements just like we can negotiate trade deals. But, a) these will take time to negotiate (probably years), b) those with the EU will need to be accepted by all the nations in the EU, and c) being reciprocal they need to benefit both sides - what is the benefit of EU nations providing healthcare for Brits living there if the UK prevents EU citizens living here?
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
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Ariel
Shipmate
# 58
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
Regretfully it does begin to look as though Leave has got the momentum.
It's impossible to predict. There's also still a large chunk of undecided voters. Either way, life is likely to be more difficult after, not easier.
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M.
Ship's Spare Part
# 3291
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Posted
Alan Cresswell, I was trying to correct the apparent suggestion that it is only because of the EU that we have reciprocal health care benefits. Whether continuation of them with EU countries after a Brexit would be possible, likely or even desirable is a different question.
However, there are obviously several non EU countries that do find it in their interests to have such arrangements with us.
M.
Posts: 2303 | From: Lurking in Surrey | Registered: Sep 2002
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
Although, in most cases, those arrangements are very basic. As a tourist it's probably advisable to take out travel insurance that also covers emergency medical treatment. If you work overseas then you would probably be enrolled in whatever the local medical insurance scheme is - either a private scheme or through some form of tax contribution to a state funded health service.
Though the costs of medical care to working age people are generally small. It's caring for the non-working elderly that costs the NHS, and other healthcare systems, the majority. So, if we exit the EU, close our borders to people coming to the UK to work and that's reciprocated by less UK people moving to the sun to retire then the extra costs to the NHS will be enormous - an extra cost that even the overly optimistic amount that the Leavers claim will be spent on the NHS is a drop in the ocean.
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
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rolyn
Shipmate
# 16840
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Posted
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
]Remember that it will be *our* blood, *our* toil, *our* tears and *our* sweat. Boris and his pals won't bleed, work, cry or sweat, oh dear no.
".......and when the flower of England is dead those balding old Generals toddle off home to die in bed" --- from a WW1 poem.
If trumpism in the US and Leaverism is a fever at work among the Electorate then even the prospect of catastrophe isn't going to stop it. And yes, those at the bottom of the heap are usually the ones who get squashed the most.
Periodically in human history we see a form of collective madness take hold this could be what we are witnessing.
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Change is the only certainty of existence
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Rocinante
Shipmate
# 18541
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by M.:
Reciprocal health care agreements are not an EU thing - We have them with a lot of other countries.
M.
I didn't say that they were an EU thing, I said that the act of leaving the EU would cause them to collapse. This was a bit of hyperbole in a rather flippant post, but they would at the very least have to be renegotiated - and as Alan said, we would be negotiating with a very weak hand:
"Please keep looking after all our elderly sun-seekers, even though we won't even let your young healthy people come and work here any more."
Yeah, right.
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by rolyn:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
]Remember that it will be *our* blood, *our* toil, *our* tears and *our* sweat. Boris and his pals won't bleed, work, cry or sweat, oh dear no.
".......and when the flower of England is dead those balding old Generals toddle off home to die in bed" --- from a WW1 poem.
If trumpism in the US and Leaverism is a fever at work among the Electorate then even the prospect of catastrophe isn't going to stop it. And yes, those at the bottom of the heap are usually the ones who get squashed the most.
Periodically in human history we see a form of collective madness take hold this could be what we are witnessing.
I don't think it's simply madness. It's partly a revolt against the establishment, on various issues, such as immigration. Problem is, it could well result in a Boris led government. As John Major said, you trust Boris, Gove and IDS with the NHS? Hysterical laughter.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
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Rocinante
Shipmate
# 18541
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Posted
All over the developed world, there seems to be an increasing number of people who feel they're not living the life that they deserve, who feel that this is someone else's fault, and who will support any politician, left or right, who articulates their feelings. (In the developing world, where people would probably have more justification for feeling like this, they are too preoccupied with getting enough of life's necessities to rage against nebulous "elites" or "foreigners" who are supposedly doing them over, but hey, give them time.)
There is some small justification for this in that one of the effects of technology and globalisation is to make the rich richer. I don't think they necessarily make the poor poorer, but the benefits are not evenly distributed, that's for sure. Also technology means that the absurdly pampered lives of rich vulgarians are on constant show, which may inspire jealousy in some. Personally I wouldn't want to live like that but each to his own.
Rationally, it is likely that the consequences of Brexit will bear down most heavily on the poorest as the economy, already on life support, tanks. But this probably is a form of madness in that it is impervious to rational argument.
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Sarah G
Shipmate
# 11669
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Rocinante:
it is likely that the consequences of Brexit will bear down most heavily on the poorest as the economy, already on life support, tanks.
This.
We're still in austerity...and Brexit will make it twice as bad.
It's the most vulnerable who will pay for the foolishness.
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Rocinante:
All over the developed world, there seems to be an increasing number of people who feel they're not living the life that they deserve, who feel that this is someone else's fault, and who will support any politician, left or right, who articulates their feelings.
This week's Economist quotes a think-tank pundit who says the unrest is greatest amongst the lower middle classes, who feel both not well-off enough, and secure enough, to be a bit rebellious. The idea being that it's symptomatic of a particular set of circumstances along the road between austerity and recovery.
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
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Raptor Eye
Shipmate
# 16649
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Posted
It surely has to be said that the poorest and most vulnerable people are likely to be worse off if we remain too.
The minimum wage already means little to them, even less so the more unskilled people there are chasing the few openings.
The NHS and schools are already stretched beyond reasonable capacity, unless you know differently.....
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Be still, and know that I am God! Psalm 46.10
Posts: 4359 | From: The United Kingdom | Registered: Sep 2011
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rufiki
Ship's 'shroom
# 11165
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ariel:
Vote Leave have just put a leaflet through my door. The punchline is "Imagine the question was the other way round. Would you vote to join the European Union? If not, Vote Leave."
Pause for thought.
To answer that question honestly, you'd have to imagine what both Britain and the EU would currently be like if Britain hadn't previously joined. I'm pretty sure this is impossible for the average voter. So my reaction to the punchline was "these people are trying to pull a fast one".
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Raptor Eye:
The NHS and schools are already stretched beyond reasonable capacity, unless you know differently.....
This is not the fault of the EU, but of the UK government.
And the last time I looked, the current UK government cares more about giving tax breaks to millionaires than funding the NHS properly or expanding the number of school places coherently.
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Forward the New Republic
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
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Rocinante
Shipmate
# 18541
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by rufiki:
quote:
Originally posted by Ariel:
Vote Leave have just put a leaflet through my door. The punchline is "Imagine the question was the other way round. Would you vote to join the European Union? If not, Vote Leave."
Pause for thought.
To answer that question honestly, you'd have to imagine what both Britain and the EU would currently be like if Britain hadn't previously joined. I'm pretty sure this is impossible for the average voter. So my reaction to the punchline was "these people are trying to pull a fast one".
This is one of the many fundamental problems with this stupid, stupid referendum. There are no hard facts on either side, no evidence worthy of the name. All argument is in the realms of fantasy. No country has ever left the EU, so we really have no idea what will happen when one does. And Britain did join in 1973, so asking people to imagine that it didn't is up there with "what if Hitler had won world war 2" - an interesting dinner party game, terrible basis for a decision of national importance.
For my money, when an economy is in as fragile a state as ours, propped up by zero interest rates, you don't want to do anything drastic which has an unknown outcome. (Actually, one outcome of Brexit we can be fairly certain of is a run on the pound, which will necessitate steep rises in interest rates.)
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by rolyn:
Periodically in human history we see a form of collective madness take hold this could be what we are witnessing.
Insanity as the Zeitgeist? You know, there may be something in that. Here are a couple of already old quotations from R D Laing.
quote:
Insanity -- a perfectly rational adjustment to an insane world.
We live in a moment of history where change is so speeded up that we begin to see the present only when it is already disappearing.
Things have speeded up since Ronny Laing came up with the second of those. Seriously, the complexity of the modern world, the plethora of choices, the levels of manipulation (advertising, political spin, 24/7 news media) and the massive value shifts create a pretty confusing melange.
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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rolyn
Shipmate
# 16840
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
Seriously, the complexity of the modern world, the plethora of choices, the levels of manipulation (advertising, political spin, 24/7 news media) and the massive value shifts create a pretty confusing melange.
The Internet is changing everything, well everything apart from English football hooliganism it seems.
The depressing reappearance of,(mainly), white males stripped to the waist hurling objects at French police who are already stretched over the terror alert will, in an indirect way, help the Remain camp.
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Change is the only certainty of existence
Posts: 3206 | From: U.K. | Registered: Dec 2011
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Ariel
Shipmate
# 58
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Posted
The famous poll that gives Leave the 10 point lead is based on a sample of just over 1000 adults. On that basis the country is jumping up and down either panicking or eagerly anticipating.
quote:
Originally posted by rolyn:
The Internet is changing everything, well everything apart from English football hooliganism it seems.
The depressing reappearance of,(mainly), white males stripped to the waist hurling objects at French police who are already stretched over the terror alert will, in an indirect way, help the Remain camp.
How did you arrive at that conclusion? From what I've been reading in the news it seems that some hardcore French fans have been looking for foreigners to beat up, and have just gone in for the Northern Irish and Poles who were peacefully having pre-match drinks together. If anything I'd have thought that kind of thing would swing opinion to Leave.
Posts: 25445 | Registered: May 2001
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rolyn
Shipmate
# 16840
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Posted
Well it is a moot point to be sure. My conclusion is reached by thinking a spectacle of disruption on the Continent will cause a feeling of standing together. Agreed it can just as easily provoke people into saying the thing is falling apart we need to leave.
With so many Don't Knows the mood of the mass is everything on the 23rd. I still think poll claims that it's neck and neck is hype to increase voter turnout.
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Change is the only certainty of existence
Posts: 3206 | From: U.K. | Registered: Dec 2011
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Sarah G
Shipmate
# 11669
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Raptor Eye:
It surely has to be said that the poorest and most vulnerable people are likely to be worse off if we remain too.
No, Brexit will have a major and bad effect on the economy, which will result in cuts to support for the most vulnerable. Remain will have no effect.
quote:
The NHS and schools are already stretched beyond reasonable capacity, unless you know differently.....
I know a lot about schools, and they're not stretched beyond reasonable capacity.
However if Brexit happens, the resulting economic slowdown, and inevitable budget cuts, will cause serious problems to both schools and NHS.
Posts: 514 | Registered: Jul 2006
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lowlands_boy
Shipmate
# 12497
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Posted
This entire spectacle has really really depressed me. I've spent lots of hours in the last two weekends engaged in "debate" on Facebook, the standard of which is so poor it barely merits the name.
Stupid viral posts that can't possibly be true.
Long, winding viral posts consisting of half truths to start off with, moving on to lies, and building up to a crescendo of irrelevant rubbish.
And people who I fear genuinely don't know any better posting captioned pictures that are overtly racist.
Regardless of the outcome of the vote, I fear this has set a terrible standard of debate that will become the norm in future elections. Quite frankly I think anything goes next time around, but sadly every time I think we must have reached the bottom, someone gets even worse.
It's a serious issue that merits serious debate, but people who genuinely don't know any better think it's fine to just post recycled right wing hate material whilst droning on about things that have precisely nothing to do with the EU. Just don't try telling them that, or analysing one of these viral posts....
I've never worried more about the future, and not just which way this result goes. At least there's a reasonable standard of debate on here. Perhaps it's a good thing we don't allow pictures on the boards. I think I'll make a donation to the floating fund, so there'll still be somewhere vaguely sane to talk about it all.
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I thought I should update my signature line....
Posts: 836 | From: North West UK | Registered: Apr 2007
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lowlands_boy:
... It's a serious issue that merits serious debate, but people who genuinely don't know any better think it's fine to just post recycled right wing hate material whilst droning on about things that have precisely nothing to do with the EU. Just don't try telling them that, or analysing one of these viral posts. ...
IMHO a lot of the reason for this is that there isn't much to have serious debate about. The EU is not perfect. In a lot of ways, it is fairly flawed. But after several months of this, I still have not heard any (and I mean any) serious or persuasive arguments for Brexit - at all. If there is anything that 'merits serious debate' even the Brexit enthusiasts haven't manage to find it.
So it all has to be by appeal to different versions of 'don't we all hate those nasty foreigners', and emotional misuse of words like 'sovereignty' as dogwhistles, people using dishonest manipulation aimed at the more reprehensible emotions as a substitute for that "serious debate", because the serious and rational arguments for their cause don't exist.
The most disturbing thing of all is the fear that so many of one's fellow citizens may be going to decide how to vote on this important subject by their emotions as stirred by other peoples' dishonest rhetoric rather than reason, common sense, or even their own best interests.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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Curiosity killed ...
Ship's Mug
# 11770
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Posted
There was a Vote Leave stall in the High Street yesterday with someone waving a placard at the passing traffic. A significant number of drivers going past were tooting their horns in recognition - and probably agreement. I would say maybe half, maybe a third, but I wasn't watching the traffic and counting.
I vaguely recognised a couple of people manning the stall; normally I know most of those involved in anything run locally, so I'm not sure how local they were, or whether they were just people who aren't usually involved in things. Most of those running the stall were middle aged, which is the age group most likely to vote leave, but there was one young girl who I think I recognised as the daughter of one of the local Tory politicians.
This area has far right as the most likely influence for radicalisation; it's an area that is resisting the multi-culturalism of London.
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Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat
Posts: 13794 | From: outiside the outer ring road | Registered: Aug 2006
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