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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Purgatory: In, out, in, out; EU Referendum thread.
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lowlands_boy
Shipmate
# 12497
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Posted
Having seen the sheer amount of outright nonsense (trying to put it politely) in this "campaign", my late breaking idea is that there should be a number of true/false questions on the ballot paper, concerning basic knowledge of the EU.
If you get the questions wrong, you don't get to vote in the core referendum question.
Perhaps a bit late in the day for that though...
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I thought I should update my signature line....
Posts: 836 | From: North West UK | Registered: Apr 2007
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
It tells me that you can't settle a large number of complex issues with a yes/no question. That's why I think referendums are atrocious.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Stetson
Shipmate
# 9597
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lowlands_boy:
[QB] It's now in the news that Nissan are suing the official Vote Leave campaign for unauthorised use of the Nissan logo on various leaflets etc.
This is an interesting twist isn't it? A bit like the Conservative party battle bus expenses, but with an even bigger prize.
I wonder how much of a case Nissan really has, given that they HAD previously expressed an opinion on Brexit. So, it could be argued that, having entered their company into the debate, use of their symbol is fair game.
Posts: 6574 | From: back and forth between bible belts | Registered: Jun 2005
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lowlands_boy
Shipmate
# 12497
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Stetson:
quote:
Originally posted by lowlands_boy:
[QB] It's now in the news that Nissan are suing the official Vote Leave campaign for unauthorised use of the Nissan logo on various leaflets etc.
This is an interesting twist isn't it? A bit like the Conservative party battle bus expenses, but with an even bigger prize.
I wonder how much of a case Nissan really has, given that they HAD previously expressed an opinion on Brexit. So, it could be argued that, having entered their company into the debate, use of their symbol is fair game.
Don't know - the leaflet in question featured a number of other logos as well. The claim is actually that all the firms in question had said they would still be here after Brexit. Nissan appear to claim that they are not backing one side or the other as it's a matter for the voting public - which is a different angle.
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I thought I should update my signature line....
Posts: 836 | From: North West UK | Registered: Apr 2007
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lowlands_boy:
quote:
Originally posted by Stetson:
quote:
Originally posted by lowlands_boy:
[QB] It's now in the news that Nissan are suing the official Vote Leave campaign for unauthorised use of the Nissan logo on various leaflets etc.
This is an interesting twist isn't it? A bit like the Conservative party battle bus expenses, but with an even bigger prize.
I wonder how much of a case Nissan really has, given that they HAD previously expressed an opinion on Brexit. So, it could be argued that, having entered their company into the debate, use of their symbol is fair game.
Don't know - the leaflet in question featured a number of other logos as well. The claim is actually that all the firms in question had said they would still be here after Brexit. Nissan appear to claim that they are not backing one side or the other as it's a matter for the voting public - which is a different angle.
Nissan have expressed an opinion
quote:
The global car manufacturer ... said that while this was ultimately a matter for the British people to decide, the company believed it made the most sense for jobs, trade and costs for the UK to stay within Europe.
I can quite see why they might be more than a bit miffed to find themselves listed among companies supporting a Brexit.
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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Stetson
Shipmate
# 9597
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
quote:
Originally posted by lowlands_boy:
quote:
Originally posted by Stetson:
quote:
Originally posted by lowlands_boy:
[QB] It's now in the news that Nissan are suing the official Vote Leave campaign for unauthorised use of the Nissan logo on various leaflets etc.
This is an interesting twist isn't it? A bit like the Conservative party battle bus expenses, but with an even bigger prize.
I wonder how much of a case Nissan really has, given that they HAD previously expressed an opinion on Brexit. So, it could be argued that, having entered their company into the debate, use of their symbol is fair game.
Don't know - the leaflet in question featured a number of other logos as well. The claim is actually that all the firms in question had said they would still be here after Brexit. Nissan appear to claim that they are not backing one side or the other as it's a matter for the voting public - which is a different angle.
Nissan have expressed an opinion
quote:
The global car manufacturer ... said that while this was ultimately a matter for the British people to decide, the company believed it made the most sense for jobs, trade and costs for the UK to stay within Europe.
I can quite see why they might be more than a bit miffed to find themselves listed among companies supporting a Brexit.
According to Reuters, the pamphlet implied that Nissan had said they would stay in the UK, regardless of how the vote went. It doesn't appear that they said Nissan supported Brexit.
And it would seem that what Nissan is suing over is the use of their logo, not the alleged misrepresentation of their position. I'm just not sure they have a case on that, since logos get appropriated all the time for political usage.
Posts: 6574 | From: back and forth between bible belts | Registered: Jun 2005
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Stetson:
According to Reuters, the pamphlet implied that Nissan had said they would stay in the UK, regardless of how the vote went. It doesn't appear that they said Nissan supported Brexit. [/QB]
I suppose Nissan will be building their case on the observation that a lot of people don't read the pamphlets but just subconsciously take on board the message. And, if you don't read the details but see a bunch of corporate logo's under a "Vote Leave" caption then the message you're likely to take away is that those companies support the Vote Leave campaign.
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
Interesting comments from Jean-Claude Juncker as reported on the BBC.
We were speculating upthread what might happen after a Brexit vote given that most MPs are Remain. Well, according to Juncker that won't matter in the slightest what the HoC decides, if the vote is Out, then the rug will be pulled from the EU side.
No doubt Farage and the Brexiters think that Juncker is exaggerating. But that's quite a risk - if Boris and Farage end up being right and that EU in the end negotiate a better deal than (a) the UK had inside the EU and (b) than other European non-EU states like Norway have gotten, then he is going to look particularly stupid and arse-licky.
I suppose the question is who to believe; Boris and Farage or those who actually would be sitting across the table to negotiate a deal.
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arse
Posts: 10697 | Registered: Sep 2002
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lowlands_boy
Shipmate
# 12497
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
Interesting comments from Jean-Claude Juncker as reported on the BBC.
We were speculating upthread what might happen after a Brexit vote given that most MPs are Remain. Well, according to Juncker that won't matter in the slightest what the HoC decides, if the vote is Out, then the rug will be pulled from the EU side.
No doubt Farage and the Brexiters think that Juncker is exaggerating. But that's quite a risk - if Boris and Farage end up being right and that EU in the end negotiate a better deal than (a) the UK had inside the EU and (b) than other European non-EU states like Norway have gotten, then he is going to look particularly stupid and arse-licky.
I suppose the question is who to believe; Boris and Farage or those who actually would be sitting across the table to negotiate a deal.
IS that supposed to mean we're going to get expelled? How would it actually work in practice? We are supposed to invoke Article 50 at our convenience to announce our intention to leave - not get booted out. It's not clear when Cameron would do that assuming he would stay in charge.
Boris and Gove have suggested that in the UK they would table motions to revoke the European Community act of 1972 ASAP. Presumably if Boris displaces Dave, he'll be doing Article 50 ASAP as well....
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I thought I should update my signature line....
Posts: 836 | From: North West UK | Registered: Apr 2007
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
My understanding was that Junkers was saying that an out vote will not lead to a new negotiation.
So the government couldn't go back, get a new deal, then put it to the country again.
Presumably this would play out as Cameron/Johnson going to the EU and saying 'please can we have a summit ?' And the EU saying 'no'.
Then the UK government either triggers article 50 or doesn't.
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lowlands_boy:
IS that supposed to mean we're going to get expelled?
No, I assume it is a clumsy attempt to signal that the position that Leave sometimes seem to indicate is their strategy ("We will enter a new period of negotiation once in power") is not going to be viable.
I say clumsy, but I'd want to read the original language - given the press' track record, there is a good chance that its a distortion of something fairly reasonable.
Posts: 4035 | From: Berkshire | Registered: May 2007
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
Cameron does not need enabling legislation after a Leave vote. He has the authority to invoke Article 50. I think his previous pronouncement means he has to do that even if there is a majority of 1 vote in the referendum. It's not advisory to the House of Commons, it is mandatory on the Prime Minister.
I suppose Cameron could wriggle if it is a virtual dead heat. Or he could resign and a new PM could wriggle. But I think these are pretty theoretical possibilities.
I don't think Juncker is saying anything new and I do think the Leave campaign are playing their usual "you can't trust the EU" game. But given how knife edged all this is now, I doubt whether Cameron is very pleased with Juncker tonight.
[ 22. June 2016, 19:56: Message edited by: Barnabas62 ]
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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rolyn
Shipmate
# 16840
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
It tells me that you can't settle a large number of complex issues with a yes/no question. That's why I think referendums are atrocious.
Referendums mean politicians can blame the Electorate whatever the outcome.
If The UK is plunged into another recession starting tomorrow at least this time the government can truthfully say the people have brought upon themselves. And for an Electorate disillusioned with politics that might just have the feel of refreshing, if only temporary, novelty about it.
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Change is the only certainty of existence
Posts: 3206 | From: U.K. | Registered: Dec 2011
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Huia
Shipmate
# 3473
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Posted
I hope the polling goes peacefully. There are obviously strong emotions on both sides of the debate ![[Votive]](graemlins/votive.gif)
Huia
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Charity gives food from the table, Justice gives a place at the table.
Posts: 10382 | From: Te Wai Pounamu | Registered: Oct 2002
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by rolyn:
Referendums mean politicians can blame the Electorate whatever the outcome.
It seems to me that the greater danger is that the politicians can spend the mandate they've been given in such a binary way in a wide variety of ways.
Whatever happens, getting on for 50% of people will have expressed dissatisfaction with the EU, but the stupidity of the referendum means that the real issues are hidden and instead it has been a campaign based on smoke-and-mirrors.
So if there is a Remain vote, does the British government have a mandate to sign up to TTIP? We can't tell, we weren't asked to vote directly on TTIP and it didn't feature significantly in the discussion.
Of course we could also say the reverse; if Leave win, approximately 50% of voters will have signalled that they're in favour of the things they like about the EU. But we don't know exactly what those things are - presumably they're not the corruption, the waste, the other dumb shit.
So if, as seems likely, we're left tomorrow with a very small majority in one direction or the other, then we (a) are not really any the wiser as to precisely what it is that the majority like or dislike about the EU and (b) we're going to have the baggage of a massive proportion of the voting public disagreeing with the majority view on this.
In a GE this would result in roughly equal parties in the HoC, of course. But uniquely in terms of a referendum, we're left with a final decision that lots of people are not going to like.
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arse
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betjemaniac
Shipmate
# 17618
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
we're going to have the baggage of a massive proportion of the voting public disagreeing with the majority view on this.
whatever the result, this is going to be the key thing here I think. That is going to present huge and new challenges whichever way the vote goes. Just reinforces the fact that things staying as they are isn't going to be what anyone gets.
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And is it true? For if it is....
Posts: 1481 | From: behind the dreaming spires | Registered: Mar 2013
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betjemaniac
Shipmate
# 17618
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by betjemaniac:
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
we're going to have the baggage of a massive proportion of the voting public disagreeing with the majority view on this.
whatever the result, this is going to be the key thing here I think. That is going to present huge and new challenges whichever way the vote goes. Just reinforces the fact that things staying as they are isn't going to be what anyone gets.
In fact, it strikes me that a narrow result either way is going to give governments ammunition to proceed in a direction that neither side wants, viz:
Narrow Leave - we leave, but the govt does its level best to keep as close to the EU as possible because nearly half the country want that - so the true believer Brexiters don't get what they want.
Narrow Remain - we stay, but with turbocharged Euroscepticism and a government (of any colour frankly) knowing that it can't afford to be a constructive engaging EU partner because half the country will be screaming blue murder every 10 seconds. So the Euro enthusiasts find themselves stuck in a country which is as Eurosceptic as ever, but this time with the numbers and overt divisions to prove it.
Not sure either future is going to be fun.
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And is it true? For if it is....
Posts: 1481 | From: behind the dreaming spires | Registered: Mar 2013
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
Of course the Scottish Independence result was close. Not living north of the Border, I cannot say what legacy of division that has left. North East Quine, can you shed any light on matters as they stand?
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
Generally it's not much different from before the Independence referendum. There's still a hard-core independence movement, who have been heartened by the level of support they got, but seem to be no more vocal than before the referendum was called. The majority of people are satisfied with some increased devolved powers, and are waiting to see how they work out. There has been a lot of speculation that Labour support for the "No" campaign contributed to their collapse in the general election here. But, then the SNP didn't wipe the floor with everyone else in the Scottish election earlier this year, and to the surprise of many even the Conservatives did fairly well. The relatively close referendum result hasn't radically changed Scotland.
The Independence referendum has, however, cast a largely unwanted shadow across the EU referendum debate here. Although Nicola Sturgeon has admitted to having a contingency plan in the event of a Brexit, and that the possibility of a second Independent referendum is in there, she has tried to avoid Independence on the campaign trail - not very successfully as the media keep asking the question, and the Remain campaign in England keeps on waving the "Brexit will break the Union 'cos the Scots will vote for Independence" banner. Plus, many of the Remain campaigners in Scotland have been trying to present the positive sides of EU membership, and been quite uncomfortable being on the same side as another "Project Fear" coming from down south.
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Huia:
I hope the polling goes peacefully. There are obviously strong emotions on both sides of the debate
Huia
Er, this is ENGLAND and it's not 1936.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Joesaphat
Shipmate
# 18493
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
quote:
Originally posted by Huia:
I hope the polling goes peacefully. There are obviously strong emotions on both sides of the debate
Huia
Er, this is ENGLAND and it's not 1936.
Human nature has changed since? I'd say that's precisely why we need the union most. Wars between nations still happen, and on our doorstep too. Domestic unrest is not at all unlikely.
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Opening my mouth and removing all doubt, online.
Posts: 418 | From: London | Registered: Oct 2015
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jacobsen
seeker
# 14998
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Posted
I posted my vote weeks ago, and hope that all things, including the inertia vote, combine to keep us in.
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But God, holding a candle, looks for all who wander, all who search. - Shifra Alon
Beauty fades, dumb is forever-Judge Judy
The man who made time, made plenty.
Posts: 8040 | From: Æbleskiver country | Registered: Aug 2009
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Huia
Shipmate
# 3473
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
quote:
Originally posted by Huia:
I hope the polling goes peacefully. There are obviously strong emotions on both sides of the debate
Huia
Er, this is ENGLAND and it's not 1936.
I realise that Martin, I'm not thinking of jackboots marching down the street, but one woman has already lost her life for reasons that seem related to the referendum. When passions run high the unexpected can happen.
Huia
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Charity gives food from the table, Justice gives a place at the table.
Posts: 10382 | From: Te Wai Pounamu | Registered: Oct 2002
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
Well, polling day is here and the decision has to be made, so I'm going to set out my thoughts on the various issues at play. As this is a complex issue this will be a long post, but I think the decision is important enough to treat with respect. I’ll add a “tl;dr” at the end if you’d rather skip to that ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
I’d like to start by thanking everyone here on the Ship for their conduct during the debate. This has been one of the most thoughtful and least reactionary discussions about the issue I’ve had, read or watched.
Sovereignty
I’m still convinced that being out of the EU would be better for UK democracy and sovereignty, and that British people should be able to decide things for themselves without having to consider what someone in France, Spain or Romania thinks about it. I realise that trade deals inevitably involve negotiated compromise with the other country, but we’d be able to negotiate our side of things on the basis of what’s best for Britain rather than what’s best for Europe as a whole. And no, the two are not the same thing!
I still firmly believe that smaller political entities are inherently better for democracy than bigger ones, for the simple reason that each vote is more important the fewer people there are voting. Even a perfectly democratic EU – which it is manifestly not – would be worse than an independent UK for this reason alone.
As an aside, I think those who argue that the UK is not democratic because of the House of Lords are missing a very big point. The Lords can only review and revise legislation, they cannot create it – and it follows (in theory!) that only policies that have been voted for in a general election will ever become law. This is in stark contrast to the EU where the unelected Commission proposes legislation and the elected parliament reviews and revises it. This lack of any ability for the elected part of the EU government to propose legislation breaks the link between the people and the laws that will govern them.
Set against these arguments is the fact of the UK’s opt-out rights, which mean we don’t have to go along with shit like Schengen or the Euro if we don’t want to. We wouldn’t get those rights back if we ever wanted to re-enter the EU.
The Economy
Everyone agrees that Brexit will cause an economic downturn, differing only on how severe and long-lasting it would be. It seems certain that prices would rise, due to both trade tariffs and a fallen pound. The way the markets have followed the polls (remain on top = pound up, leave on top = pound down) should give us all pause.
What’s left of our manufacturing sector certainly seems to benefit from EU membership, with companies like Nissan choosing the UK for their factories because of our unique combination of access to the EU market and speaking English (the international language of business). These factors also make us a natural bridge between the EU and the US/Canada/Australia, which is not to be sniffed at. If we left the EU it’s possible – though not certain – that these relationships would also end.
In the Higher Education sector – which is important to me for obvious reasons – funding from EU government, industry and charities makes up a respectable fraction of university income. EU students are something of a red herring as – at my university at least – there aren’t really enough of them to make a significant difference to the figures. EU academic staff, on the other hand, would be very sorely missed. Furthermore, it cannot be denied that the ability to go on study or work years abroad is important to prospective students, and the majority of said exchanges are made possible by EU membership.
Immigration
I’m in favour of controlled immigration. Not no immigration, because that’s stupid and will never happen, but also not completely unrestricted immigration, even if it’s only from 27 other countries.
However. We are currently not part of the Schengen area, which means that while we cannot prevent EU citizens from coming here we can set up customs and passport checks to ensure that they’re not bringing anything here we don’t want (be it food, unquarantined animals or whatever), and to provide the required control over non-EU people who immigrate from other EU countries. And odd as it seems continued EU membership does seem to be the safest way to ensure that state of affairs continues.
Security
Let’s discount the whole “the EU is the only thing preventing European War” guff. There have been, and are, so many other factors at play in the world that to narrow them down to one thing like that is specious.
The police seem to like the EU arrest warrant system and the ability to share information about criminals across the whole continent. That obviously has to be set against the ability of said criminals to operate across the whole continent.
I think terrorism is another red herring, to be honest. It’s an issue that crosses national borders across the world, and will continue to be so. Nothing about the EU debate will change that.
The Campaigns
A pox on both their houses.
People I Give A Shit About
There have been rational, reasoned arguments on both sides of the debate. There has also been a whole load of shit on both sides of the debate.
Conclusion
It’s been a tough decision. Before the campaigns started I was pretty firmly in the leave camp, but once the arguments started being made (and the question was actually about to be answered) I quickly moved to “on the fence, but leaning towards leave”. That lean has become less and less pronounced as time has gone by, and at least part of that has been due to the excellent arguments being marshalled right here on this thread.
Ultimately, I have to go right back to the basics. A vote for Remain is a vote for the status quo, and a vote for leave is a vote for change. As an inherent conservative, for me that puts the onus on leave to demonstrate why their option would be better. And now, after all the arguments have been made, I can honestly say that I am not convinced that they have. Ergo, and with some reservations, I will be voting remain.
tl;dr
Lots of things to consider, some good for remain, some good for leave. Remain just outweighs leave in the final analysis.
And there you have it.
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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Matt Black
Shipmate
# 2210
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Posted
I have voted Remain
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"Protestant and Reformed, according to the Tradition of the ancient Catholic Church" - + John Cosin (1594-1672)
Posts: 14304 | From: Hampshire, UK | Registered: Jan 2002
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Huia:
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
quote:
Originally posted by Huia:
I hope the polling goes peacefully. There are obviously strong emotions on both sides of the debate
Huia
Er, this is ENGLAND and it's not 1936.
I realise that Martin, I'm not thinking of jackboots marching down the street, but one woman has already lost her life for reasons that seem related to the referendum. When passions run high the unexpected can happen.
Huia
Indeed Huia. We are more socio-politically polarized than since the Poll Tax Riot of '89, Thatcher's nemesis, perhaps. There will always be lone nutters. I don't think they can be correlated with owt much. Energized by greater events may be. My money says nowt will happen anywhere, including after 07:30 tomorrow, regardless of the outcome.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
Wow, Marvin, so much kudos. If only the whole debate could have been of that calibre. ![[Overused]](graemlins/notworthy.gif)
(And in a hostly response to Matt Black's post, if all you want to do is record your voting choice - rather than explain why - I suggest you do so on Alan's poll in the circus)
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Matt Black
Shipmate
# 2210
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Posted
I've done so.
Likewise, kudos to Marvin.
I voted Remain for the following reasons:
1. To avoid economic uncertainty and the risk of enjoying another recession so soon after the last one.
2. To protect our working rights.
3. Because, if I feel any allegiance to any polity beyond Phil 3:20, I feel primarily European, having grown up knowing largely nothing else other than the EU in various incarnations.
4. For my children, that they will continue to have the opportunities to live, work and travel with ease in the rest of the EU.
5. For the EU, to avoid destabilising it at a time of difficulty if not crisis over the combo of refugees and Eurozone problems: a Brexit could lead to the whole project unravelling, leading to instability on the continent and greater exposure to threats from eg: Russia (yes, I know there's NATO, but one can be threatened in more ways than just military...)
6. Because I can't stand Farage, Gove, IDS, and Johnson. Yes, I know one shouldn't vote according to personalities, but I can't ignore the fact that some of the more odious (IMO) individuals in British politics (and those on the continent too - Le Pen, Wilders, Petry, Pegida, etc) are pro-Brexit/ anti-EU.
7. Because I want there to be another layer of 'checks and balances' to Westminster and Whitehall (whatever the colour of the government of the day), including preventing the likes of Rupert Murdoch and big business having too much influence over them.
[ 23. June 2016, 10:35: Message edited by: Matt Black ]
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"Protestant and Reformed, according to the Tradition of the ancient Catholic Church" - + John Cosin (1594-1672)
Posts: 14304 | From: Hampshire, UK | Registered: Jan 2002
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lowlands_boy
Shipmate
# 12497
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Posted
The stock market is soaring away today, up almost 1.5% . Due to reporting rules on impartiality, the BBC are apparently unable to comment on why that might be...
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I thought I should update my signature line....
Posts: 836 | From: North West UK | Registered: Apr 2007
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Matt Black
Shipmate
# 2210
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Posted
Plus, when one drills down into the whole 'take back control/ we want our country back' slogan of the Brexiteers, it seems that 'their country' is England c. 1952 (presumably complete with rickets, polio, slums, etc), and it all begins to sound a bit like that Harry Enfield sketch "When life was simpler" and his various Miles Chomondley-Warner sketches, or Enid Blyton with lashings of ginger beer and no black people or nasty gays, where "Women know their limits".
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"Protestant and Reformed, according to the Tradition of the ancient Catholic Church" - + John Cosin (1594-1672)
Posts: 14304 | From: Hampshire, UK | Registered: Jan 2002
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Who is Pegida?
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Matt Black
Shipmate
# 2210
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Posted
Herewith
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"Protestant and Reformed, according to the Tradition of the ancient Catholic Church" - + John Cosin (1594-1672)
Posts: 14304 | From: Hampshire, UK | Registered: Jan 2002
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Kittyville
Shipmate
# 16106
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Posted
It's a German acronym for Patriotic Europeans Against the Islamisation of the West (Patriotische Europaer Gegen der Islamierung des Abendlandes. I think).
Posts: 291 | From: Sydney | Registered: Dec 2010
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
Last time I looked the bookies' odds were 1/8 Remain, 3/1 Leave. Latest polls were narrowly in favour of Remain. Drinking coffee in a Newbury coffee bar. Pretty sure most of the staff are European migrant workers FWIW. Efficient and charming to boot. Hope the polls and bookies have it right.
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lowlands_boy:
The stock market is soaring away today, up almost 1.5% . Due to reporting rules on impartiality, the BBC are apparently unable to comment on why that might be...
And gilts (Treasury bonds) and commodities (except oil) are down. Aren't they the traditional refuge when times are tough?
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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Jay-Emm
Shipmate
# 11411
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Posted
Remain, partly because I like working together. Farage often talks about how we have an NHS not an I(nter...)HS but imagine if we had just the American money with British outcome/$. That would already mean Europe's is already covered adequately before it's even put a penny in... (which leaves a heck of a lot of free cash for providing nearer French services and helping the wider world.
But also, I have to deal with H&S red tape, I don't want it doubled unnecessarily (or our customers to have to chose). If it commits to shadow Europe, then why bother. And if it's cut, most of it's there for a reason, it's not perfect and never will be.
And partly...
Posts: 1643 | Registered: May 2006
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betjemaniac
Shipmate
# 17618
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
Last time I looked the bookies' odds were 1/8 Remain, 3/1 Leave. Latest polls were narrowly in favour of Remain. Drinking coffee in a Newbury coffee bar. Pretty sure most of the staff are European migrant workers FWIW. Efficient and charming to boot. Hope the polls and bookies have it right.
I rather suspect it may all be eyewateringly close, and no one's going to be satisfied in the morning.
(Edited at poster's request - B62)
[ 23. June 2016, 16:01: Message edited by: Barnabas62 ]
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And is it true? For if it is....
Posts: 1481 | From: behind the dreaming spires | Registered: Mar 2013
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betjemaniac
Shipmate
# 17618
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Posted
(content deleted at poster's request)
Head. Desk.
[ 23. June 2016, 16:02: Message edited by: Barnabas62 ]
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And is it true? For if it is....
Posts: 1481 | From: behind the dreaming spires | Registered: Mar 2013
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by betjemaniac:
I rather suspect it may all be eyewateringly close, and no one's going to be satisfied in the morning.
I've already guessed at what I think will happen next; but it seems likely to me that there will be a lot of upset people tomorrow if the vote is close to 50:50.
Remainers have said to me that they're planning large protest rallies if things don't go their way, and I don't even want to think what might happen if Farage and his shower lose.
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arse
Posts: 10697 | Registered: Sep 2002
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
I’d like to start by thanking everyone here on the Ship for their conduct during the debate. This has been one of the most thoughtful and least reactionary discussions about the issue I’ve had, read or watched.
I'll echo that. Purgatory, our place for serious discussion, has lived up to it's billing once again.
And, I'll also like to join in the appreciation for the long post (which I read). Even though our basic principles are different, and there were points there I would disagree on, it was a very well written and thoughtful explanation of your position.
I agree entirely on your assessment of the campaigns. The official campaigns, on both sides, have been shite and a disgrace on the country. If, as a nation, we can't pick up the quality of political discourse then whichever way the count comes out we're screwed.
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
It's been heated here which isn't surprising but compared to social media, the papers and performances by our alleged leaders it has been a model of decorum.
Purgatory has done its job, aided in no small measure by Hell.
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
Oh, I think it will be closish to 50/50 and I think there will be a lot of 'we wuz robbed' by whoever loses.
On Newbury High Street, my wife and I just tried to help a very nice Remain official supporter and leafleter who was being verbally attacked - with aggressive gestures - by a female Leaver. She was going on something alarming about how we were all being robbed blind by the EU.
Our attempts to calm her down were partially successful. She turned away from the official Remainer and we got the flak. We turned our backs and she pursued us, ranting on. Until I asked her, politely, to leave us alone and observed that her public display wasn't exactly helping her case.
I hope it was just an isolated example.
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
I know what it is Matt, you included it in your list of individuals.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Matt Black:
I have voted Remain
Me too
Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
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Matt Black
Shipmate
# 2210
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
I know what it is Matt, you included it in your list of individuals.
Yes, because it's composed of individuals.
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"Protestant and Reformed, according to the Tradition of the ancient Catholic Church" - + John Cosin (1594-1672)
Posts: 14304 | From: Hampshire, UK | Registered: Jan 2002
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Unlike the other individuals in your list of individuals.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Kittyville
Shipmate
# 16106
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Posted
And Pegida UK is a thing, also composed of individuals. (I won't link, probably marginal NSFW and just generally fairly awful).
Posts: 291 | From: Sydney | Registered: Dec 2010
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