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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Purgatory: In, out, in, out; EU Referendum thread.
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
As for holidays, I can't see that going to France or Italy would suddenly become any more difficult than going to places like Cuba, Egypt, Morocco or Mexico.
I'm sure France, Spain, Italy, Portugal, Greece and the rest could make it bloody difficult in minutes.
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
So could any country. But why would they?
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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Ricardus
Shipmate
# 8757
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
If you're right then those cultural and social differences are why any desire to see the EU as anything more than a free trade zone is a nonsense, which is what I'm arguing.
I'd suggest there is quite a lot of space between 'the EU should be a free trade area only' and 'European identity should subsume national identities' ...
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Then the dog ran before, and coming as if he had brought the news, shewed his joy by his fawning and wagging his tail. -- Tobit 11:9 (Douai-Rheims)
Posts: 7247 | From: Liverpool, UK | Registered: Nov 2004
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
I love this line of argument. If you're right then those cultural and social differences are why any desire to see the EU as anything more than a free trade zone is a nonsense, which is what I'm arguing. And if you're wrong then I'm right. Way to give me a win-win situation ![[Smile]](smile.gif) .
I love the assertions about cultural and social differences, because there are demonstrable cultural and social differences between streets a few miles apart almost everywhere in Britain alone. That's certainly the case in Newport. Further afield, Venetians, Romans and Sicilians may as well be from different countries (Italy is a pretty recent concept) and Castillians, Bascues and Catalans, while nominally Spanish can't understand each other, using their own languages.
Some of these cultural and social differences, like xenophobia and poverty, are worth eradicating, and I reckon the EU can do that, although it will have to tak on the selfishness of certain nations and make itself more democratic to do so.
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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Matt Black
Shipmate
# 2210
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Posted
And just try to get a Bavarian to accept that, other than a shared federal government, s/he has anything in common with a Rhinelander...
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"Protestant and Reformed, according to the Tradition of the ancient Catholic Church" - + John Cosin (1594-1672)
Posts: 14304 | From: Hampshire, UK | Registered: Jan 2002
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
I love the assertions about cultural and social differences, because there are demonstrable cultural and social differences between streets a few miles apart almost everywhere in Britain alone. That's certainly the case in Newport.
Are those differences significant enough that they would constitute a barrier to someone seeking to move from one place to another?
quote:
Further afield, Venetians, Romans and Sicilians may as well be from different countries (Italy is a pretty recent concept) and Castillians, Bascues and Catalans, while nominally Spanish can't understand each other, using their own languages.
All of those places (with the possible exception of Rome, which is the power the other Italians want independence from) have separatist movements - some very popular, others less so - seeking independence from the larger country. And in every case, if it ever came to a referendum on independence I would support the "yes" campaign.
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Matt Black:
And just try to get a Bavarian to accept that, other than a shared federal government, s/he has anything in common with a Rhinelander...
Language?
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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Matt Black
Shipmate
# 2210
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Posted
Like us and the Americans, you mean? (Churchill quote in there somewhere I think.) And that's before we get into the differences between High and Low German...
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"Protestant and Reformed, according to the Tradition of the ancient Catholic Church" - + John Cosin (1594-1672)
Posts: 14304 | From: Hampshire, UK | Registered: Jan 2002
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by la vie en rouge:
If I apply for a French passport, it will be because I consider there are major advantages to being a citizen of an EU member state and I don't wish to lose them.
Can you list these advantages for me? I'm going to assume freedom of movement within the EU is one, but what are the others?
Anybody else who feels the same can answer this as well, by the way. There's no need to wait for LVER.
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Matt Black:
Like us and the Americans, you mean?
Yes. I would say we have far more in common socially and culturally with Americans than with, say, Germans.
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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Matt Black
Shipmate
# 2210
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Posted
Funny, because I feel the opposite...which I suppose illustrates the divide brought into sharp relief by the referendum: those who feel 'Atlanticist' like you are more likely to vote to leave whereas those like me who feel European will probably vote to stay.
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"Protestant and Reformed, according to the Tradition of the ancient Catholic Church" - + John Cosin (1594-1672)
Posts: 14304 | From: Hampshire, UK | Registered: Jan 2002
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by Matt Black:
Like us and the Americans, you mean?
Yes. I would say we have far more in common socially and culturally with Americans than with, say, Germans.
Who's to say that the Americans will give us a better deal than will the rest of Europe? We might not have a perfect relationship with Europe but, as the saying goes, it's better to be inside the tent, pissing out than outside, probably in a stormy gale, annoying those on the inside.
Besides which you haven't yet brought a single tangible benefit of being out to the party. Come on, we're waiting.
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by Matt Black:
Like us and the Americans, you mean?
Yes. I would say we have far more in common socially and culturally with Americans than with, say, Germans.
So, if we compare something cultural like what sports we enjoy what do you get? Oh look, Britain and the rest of Europe play proper football rather than that strange game they call football over there. Or, if we go with politics, in neither the UK nor the rest of Europe would Bernie Sanders be considered an extreme left-wing politician.
Of course, we share a common language with the US which means that we get US TV, music and movies ... but, everyone else in the world gets them as well, so I'm not sure what that means.
When it comes down to it Britain is a nation comprised of peoples from Britain (there are still a few) with significant numbers of people from throughout Europe - people from the Roman Empire, Germanic "barbarians" (Saxons, Angles, Jutes etc), Scandanvians and French. We're European to the core of our mongrel nation.
The same as the US on that count.
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Matt Black:
Funny, because I feel the opposite...
I have no intention of arguing against what you feel, as that is for you and you alone.
However, I will ask this: how many American TV shows have you watched in the last year compared to the number of German ones? How many American movies have you seen compared to German ones? How many albums/tapes/CDs/downloads of American singers/bands do you have compared to German ones?
How many current American or German politicians can you name without using Google?
And if the answer to all of those is that America outranks Germany, which cultural or social factors are you thinking about when you make your judgement about who you have more in common with?
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
Anybody else who feels the same can answer this as well, by the way. There's no need to wait for LVER.
The answer is obvious. For an individual, the possession of an EU passport conveys the right to live and work anywhere in the EU. That's a pretty big advantage for a small number of people. There are, as far as I can see, almost no disadvantages for an individual who acquires an EU passport. The only things that spring to mind are compulsory military service and inheritance issues. The former is pretty easy to avoid. I don't know how inheritance works. I know that France, for example, gives quite strong rights to your children as regards inheritance, but I think they apply to French residents, not just French citizens. I don't know whether they apply to French citizens who are resident in some other country.
This is an almost entirely different question from the one about whether membership of the EU is good for the UK.
Posts: 5026 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2013
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Matt Black
Shipmate
# 2210
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
However, I will ask this: how many American TV shows have you watched in the last year compared to the number of German ones? How many American movies have you seen compared to German ones? How many albums/tapes/CDs/downloads of American singers/bands do you have compared to German ones?
How many current American or German politicians can you name without using Google?
And if the answer to all of those is that America outranks Germany, which cultural or social factors are you thinking about when you make your judgement about who you have more in common with?
They're rather skewed criteria for questions, aren't they? I could shoot back at you with "Who plays in the Six Nations Rugby?" What great classical composers do you listen to? Name 10 great medieval theologians. Etc
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"Protestant and Reformed, according to the Tradition of the ancient Catholic Church" - + John Cosin (1594-1672)
Posts: 14304 | From: Hampshire, UK | Registered: Jan 2002
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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
So, if we compare something cultural like what sports we enjoy what do you get? Oh look, Britain and the rest of Europe play proper football rather than that strange game they call football over there.
As does Latin America. If you're trying to claim that the UK is culturally closer to Argentina, Brazil, or Mexico than it is to the US based on a shared love of football then I'm going to laugh at you.
Or consider that quintessentially English sport, cricket. Cricket's geographical popularity has a rather obvious link with the bounds of the British Empire, but it doesn't follow that India and Pakistan, for example, are culturally similar to the UK. There are elements of shared culture, owing to our shared history, but that's rather a different thing.
Posts: 5026 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2013
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Ricardus
Shipmate
# 8757
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Posted
Based on the totally incontrovertible evidence of 'Who feels more foreign to me when I am associating with them?', I would vote Americans as more foreign than North Europeans and less foreign than Mediterranean Europeans.
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Then the dog ran before, and coming as if he had brought the news, shewed his joy by his fawning and wagging his tail. -- Tobit 11:9 (Douai-Rheims)
Posts: 7247 | From: Liverpool, UK | Registered: Nov 2004
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
Who's to say that the Americans will give us a better deal than will the rest of Europe?
Who said anything about getting a deal from America? I can assure you I'm no more keen to become part of the United States of America than I am to become part of a United States of Europe.
quote:
Besides which you haven't yet brought a single tangible benefit of being out to the party. Come on, we're waiting.
I asked first, and I note that nobody is falling over themselves to provide an answer.
But lest this fall into a childish game of "you first", I'll provide a short list of the key benefits to my mind of independence:
- Self Determination (this one always needs to be at the top of lists like this)
- Economic control, including but not limited to
- inflation rates.
- interest rates.
- exchange rates - this is a key one as the ability to devalue the currency in order to stimulate inwards investment is a vital last resort to have available in situations of economic crisis. Just ask Greece.
Not having to hand over a proportion of our tax revenue to foreign interests.Being able to decide such things as human rights, immigration, education, healthcare etc. for ourselves without having to negotiate them with other countries who may not share our values.
- Note that this is purely a matter of principle - I know the current political climate suggests that membership of the EU would pull the UK to the left, but I would have exactly the same objection were that to be reversed. I would not want to see a socialist Britain forced to the right by a neoliberal Europe either.
keeping pounds, pints, miles, stones, ounces, feet, yards and all the other little things we do differently to Europe that add up to form part of our distinctive national identity.
Your turn .
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
Anybody else who feels the same can answer this as well, by the way. There's no need to wait for LVER.
The answer is obvious. For an individual, the possession of an EU passport conveys the right to live and work anywhere in the EU. That's a pretty big advantage for a small number of people.
So freedom of movement throughout the continent is the only advantage, and even then it's only an advantage for a small group of people?
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
So freedom of movement throughout the continent is the only advantage, and even then it's only an advantage for a small group of people?
I think you missed the last paragraph in my post, when I say that the advantages/disadvantages for an individual such as our friend LVER to hold an EU passport are not at all the same thing as the advantages/disadvantages for a country such as the UK to be an EU member.
But yes, for the average European, the fact that they, personally, possess an EU passport is pretty irrelevant. The thing that makes a difference is the fact that their country is an EU member.
[ 12. February 2016, 16:17: Message edited by: Leorning Cniht ]
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
[ETA: in response to Marvin]
This is what Brits don't get about the EU, as mentioned upthread.
The political motivation for setting up the EU in continental Europe was "never again" in the aftermath of WW2. It's not just about banana sizes.
It's hard to get across the way occupied Europe and defeated, humliated Germany experienced the war and its aftermath compared to the UK. It took me many years living here to grasp this. "The European project" may sound desperately vague, bureaucratic and even ominous to British ears, but I do think there's something worth upholding amid it all.
[ 12. February 2016, 16:19: Message edited by: Eutychus ]
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
[ETA: in response to Marvin]
This is what Brits don't get about the EU, as mentioned upthread.
The political motivation for setting up the EU in continental Europe was "never again" in the aftermath of WW2. It's not just about banana sizes.
It's hard to get across the way occupied Europe and defeated, humliated Germany experienced the war and its aftermath compared to the UK. It took me many years living here to grasp this. "The European project" may sound desperately vague, bureaucratic and even ominous to British ears, but I do think there's something worth upholding amid it all.
It does indeed distort the view. But the anti-EU faction are not really concerned about the benefit of much of Britain itself, so....
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
and even then it's only an advantage for a small group of people?
As this is a fair description of your political posts here, why would you have issue?
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Ricardus
Shipmate
# 8757
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
Self Determination (this one always needs to be at the top of lists like this)
This supposes that self-determination is primarily a question of what one can legislate for, which, if I may say so, is a rather statist view.
It seems to me, for example, that the EU has rather more negotiating power than the UK in creating a free trade agreement with America. Likewise, to tackle the migrant crisis, or control fish stocks in the North Sea, rather more options are available to a bloc of countries working together than to the UK alone.
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Then the dog ran before, and coming as if he had brought the news, shewed his joy by his fawning and wagging his tail. -- Tobit 11:9 (Douai-Rheims)
Posts: 7247 | From: Liverpool, UK | Registered: Nov 2004
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Ricardus
Shipmate
# 8757
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
[ETA: in response to Marvin]
This is what Brits don't get about the EU, as mentioned upthread.
The political motivation for setting up the EU in continental Europe was "never again" in the aftermath of WW2. It's not just about banana sizes.
It's hard to get across the way occupied Europe and defeated, humliated Germany experienced the war and its aftermath compared to the UK. It took me many years living here to grasp this. "The European project" may sound desperately vague, bureaucratic and even ominous to British ears, but I do think there's something worth upholding amid it all.
This is I think a reason why Mr Cameron's natural allies are in Eastern Europe. Whereas the founder members see French or German nationalism (or at least their excesses) as an internal threat, and European unity as a means of neutralising it, in Eastern Europe (where the memory of occupation is more recent), Polish or Czech identity is something that needs protecting, specifically against the external threat of Russia and the legacy of Comecon, and the EU is a means of assuring national security.
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Then the dog ran before, and coming as if he had brought the news, shewed his joy by his fawning and wagging his tail. -- Tobit 11:9 (Douai-Rheims)
Posts: 7247 | From: Liverpool, UK | Registered: Nov 2004
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Ariel
Shipmate
# 58
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Posted
Leaving the EU would probably mean, and I admit to being uninformed about this, the loss of grants for farmers, under the Common Agricultural Policy. A quote from the government's website:
"Farmers' incomes are supported by the European Union by means of direct payments. In return, farmers are obliged to carry out agricultural activity and to respect a number of standards regarding food safety, environmental protection, animal welfare and the maintenance of land in good environmental and agricultural condition."
OK, they call the shots, but the farmers get the money. As farming is an industry that's been struggling for a while, what arrangements might there be to replace this, if any?
Posts: 25445 | Registered: May 2001
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
So, if we compare something cultural like what sports we enjoy what do you get? Oh look, Britain and the rest of Europe play proper football rather than that strange game they call football over there.
As does Latin America. If you're trying to claim that the UK is culturally closer to Argentina, Brazil, or Mexico than it is to the US based on a shared love of football then I'm going to laugh at you.
I was only comparing the US and the rest of the EU, an illustration of how the UK is further from the US and closer to the rest of Europe. I could have come up with some other examples, and probably some of them make us closer to latin America than the US as well - in part because latin America has inherited a fair bit of European culture (as has the US).
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
However, I will ask this: how many American TV shows have you watched in the last year compared to the number of German ones? How many American movies have you seen compared to German ones? How many albums/tapes/CDs/downloads of American singers/bands do you have compared to German ones?
Which is irrelevant. The US has a dominant cultural presence throughout the world - US music, fastfood, TV and films dominate even outwith Anglophone countries, including Europe. That the UK has been flooded by US cultural products doesn't mean that we are culturally close to the US, by that argument you can say that Germany, France and Japan are as culturally close to the US.
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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RuthW
liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
- Economic control, including but not limited to
</font> - inflation rates.
- interest rates.
- exchange rates - this is a key one as the ability to devalue the currency in order to stimulate inwards investment is a vital last resort to have available in situations of economic crisis. Just ask Greece.
And Spain. And Portugal. If I were British, a degree of economic autonomy would be the main reason I'd want to keep clear of the EU.
quote:
Originally posted by Ricardus:
It seems to me, for example, that the EU has rather more negotiating power than the UK in creating a free trade agreement with America.
The real winners in the Transatlantic Trade and Investment Partnership are going to be large transnational companies.
Posts: 24453 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
Those who think greater European integration will prevent another war seem to have forgotten that civil wars are a thing.
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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Ricardus
Shipmate
# 8757
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
If I were British, a degree of economic autonomy would be the main reason I'd want to keep clear of the EU.
Well, we escape that anyway by not having joined the euro.
FWIW I think the euro needs major reforms to be viable, and once the current playground spat over Greece dies down they will probably occur. The non-euro countries will then want new assurances and a new settlement. If this happens we will see real reforms and Mr Cameron's pretend reforms will be exposed as an annoying distraction.
quote:
The real winners in the Transatlantic Trade and Investment Partnership are going to be large transnational companies.
That is depressingly probable, but the EU is better equipped to stand up to multinationals than the UK alone.
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Then the dog ran before, and coming as if he had brought the news, shewed his joy by his fawning and wagging his tail. -- Tobit 11:9 (Douai-Rheims)
Posts: 7247 | From: Liverpool, UK | Registered: Nov 2004
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by Matt Black:
Funny, because I feel the opposite...
I have no intention of arguing against what you feel, as that is for you and you alone.
However, I will ask this: how many American TV shows have you watched in the last year compared to the number of German ones? How many American movies have you seen compared to German ones? How many albums/tapes/CDs/downloads of American singers/bands do you have compared to German ones?
How many current American or German politicians can you name without using Google?
And if the answer to all of those is that America outranks Germany, which cultural or social factors are you thinking about when you make your judgement about who you have more in common with?
Surey it's about 'high culture' - Goethe, operas, paintings - not TV shows
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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
Marvin the Martian: How many current American or German politicians can you name without using Google?
I can name quite a number of politicians from the US. With most of them I really wouldn't want to be associated though.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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Dafyd
Shipmate
# 5549
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
Surey it's about 'high culture' - Goethe, operas, paintings - not TV shows
There's always The Bridge.
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we remain, thanks to original sin, much in love with talking about, rather than with, one another. Rowan Williams
Posts: 10567 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Feb 2004
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
Surey it's about 'high culture' - Goethe, operas, paintings - not TV shows
What are you talking about? Out of any given random thousand of Brits I'd bet hard cash that no more than two would even have heard of Goethe.
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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Ricardus
Shipmate
# 8757
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Posted
And actually, on leo's definition of high culture, ISTM that America, Britain and the rest of Europe are engaged in broadly the same thing.
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Then the dog ran before, and coming as if he had brought the news, shewed his joy by his fawning and wagging his tail. -- Tobit 11:9 (Douai-Rheims)
Posts: 7247 | From: Liverpool, UK | Registered: Nov 2004
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Matt Black:
And just try to get a Bavarian to accept that, other than a shared federal government, s/he has anything in common with a Rhinelander...
What a silly thing to say! Yesterday I was at a party (in Heidelberg) with two of each. Plus three English folk, a French man and an Aussie. The hostess was a Canadian girl who has a German husband. We all agreed it would be crazy for the UK to leave the EU.
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
Am I the only one who thinks "how many politicians / actors do the people know from that country" is a rubbish criterion for establishing economic ties with a country?
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
Am I the only one who thinks "how many politicians / actors do the people know from that country" is a rubbish criterion for establishing economic ties with a country?
You would be better off asking how many CEOs you know from a country as these have far more say in setting up and maintaining economic ties than politicians, let alone actors.
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
Surey it's about 'high culture' - Goethe, operas, paintings - not TV shows
What are you talking about? Out of any given random thousand of Brits I'd bet hard cash that no more than two would even have heard of Goethe.
That's because we've dumbed down culture and education.
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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
"High-culture" is intentional class warfare.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ricardus:
And actually, on leo's definition of high culture, ISTM that America, Britain and the rest of Europe are engaged in broadly the same thing.
Yup.
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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OddJob
Shipmate
# 17591
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Posted
Originally posted by LeRoc:
Am I the only one who thinks "how many politicians / actors do the people know from that country" is a rubbish criterion for establishing economic ties with a country?
You would be better off asking how many CEOs you know from a country as these have far more say in setting up and maintaining economic ties than politicians, let alone actors. (Unquote)
As a breed, the strength of their pro-EU stance seems to be broadly in proportion to the size of their organisations.
Surely to assess the economic impact fairly, ears should also be turned to the so far under-represented small business sector and to those of us who run commercial businesses within the public sector, often facing all the drawbacks but few of the advantages.
Posts: 97 | From: West Midlands | Registered: Mar 2013
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
Am I the only one who thinks "how many politicians / actors do the people know from that country" is a rubbish criterion for establishing economic ties with a country?
We were talking about cultural and social ties.
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
Surey it's about 'high culture' - Goethe, operas, paintings - not TV shows
What are you talking about? Out of any given random thousand of Brits I'd bet hard cash that no more than two would even have heard of Goethe.
That's because we've dumbed down culture and education.
For a self-proclaimed socialist, you can be quite elitist at times.
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
Am I the only one who thinks "how many politicians / actors do the people know from that country" is a rubbish criterion for establishing economic ties with a country?
We were talking about cultural and social ties.
I think LeRoc was too. While it's true that politics is "showbiz for ugly folks" your definition is very narrow. Cultural ans social ties consist of more than fame and infamy.
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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North East Quine
Curious beastie
# 13049
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
Surey it's about 'high culture' - Goethe, operas, paintings - not TV shows
What are you talking about? Out of any given random thousand of Brits I'd bet hard cash that no more than two would even have heard of Goethe.
How much hard cash? ![[Paranoid]](graemlins/paranoid.gif)
Our local newspaper, not a broadsheet by any stretch of the imagination, had an article on "Werther syndrome" within the last month. I can't remember whether it felt necessary to explain who Goethe was, or whether they assumed that an average reader would recognise the name.
I messaged my daughter to ask if she knew who Goethe was and she replied that he was the author of the "Whatever you can do, or dream you can, begin it!" meme. So I'd guess that a swathe of FB users recognise the name even if, like my daughter, they know absolutely nothing else about him.
Posts: 6414 | From: North East Scotland | Registered: Oct 2007
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Ariel
Shipmate
# 58
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by North East Quine:
Our local newspaper, not a broadsheet by any stretch of the imagination, had an article on "Werther syndrome" within the last month. I can't remember whether it felt necessary to explain who Goethe was, or whether they assumed that an average reader would recognise the name.
My bet would be that more people have heard of Werther's Originals than of the author and their first reaction would be that it was something to do with that.
Posts: 25445 | Registered: May 2001
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North East Quine
Curious beastie
# 13049
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Posted
The article said that "Werther syndrome" was so called because of Goethe's "Sorrows of Young Werther" I can't remember if they then explained who Goethe was. There was an outline of the plot of Young Werther.
I have had a further message from my daughter who has googled and realised that Goethe wrote Faust. She had heard of Faust!
Posts: 6414 | From: North East Scotland | Registered: Oct 2007
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
Surey it's about 'high culture' - Goethe, operas, paintings - not TV shows
What are you talking about? Out of any given random thousand of Brits I'd bet hard cash that no more than two would even have heard of Goethe.
That's because we've dumbed down culture and education.
For a self-proclaimed socialist, you can be quite elitist at times.
Very often, in fact!
--------------------
My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
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