|
Source: (consider it)
|
Thread: Purgatory: In, out, in, out; EU Referendum thread.
|
Adeodatus
Shipmate
# 4992
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
quote:
Originally posted by Adeodatus:
I've seen two news clips today of people who voted Leave, but who today are saying basically that it was a protest vote, they didn't expect Leave to win, and they're regretting it. ![[brick wall]](graemlins/brick_wall.gif)
That's why we have a two-round presidential election in France. The idea is to get rid of all the spleen in the first round before getting round to the serious business of actually electing a president.
Sound method. Pity we didn't think of it a few months ago.
--------------------
"What is broken, repair with gold."
Posts: 9779 | From: Manchester | Registered: Sep 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
|
Posted
Well it's not entirely failsafe.
That was the first-round election result that gave me the final kick to get French nationality.
--------------------
Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
This ties in with what I posted here months ago about people simply not realising what the EU contributes financially to the UK (or should I say contributed?).
But that can't be true. It is hard to go anywhere in Cornwall, South Wales and other parts where there is a lot of EU funding without seeing EU-funded logos everywhere and hearing about various EU funded projects in the media.
If anything the EU funding seems to have stimulated a form of EU disgust whereby the funding awakens British resentment. For example in Cornwall, no amount of EU funding seems able to take away the resentment people feel at the loss of their fishing and other traditional industries. These losses seem to be blamed on the EU and the fancy-pancy EU-funded white-elephant projects just seem to underline for people who out-of-touch it all is and how they're prepared to fund the "blue-painted naked nymph production of Hamlet" but not my-favourite-local-historical-project.
It is a strange quirk of British character that being given money by someone seems to bring out the "oh, I see, that's all you think I'm good for is it? Well you can take your wads of EU cash and park it where the sun don't shine matey-boy.." quasi-Monty Pythonesque thinking.
The absurd part is when they say "go on then, shove off with your filthy unwashed European fingers in our business" and then "but you can leave the money as you leave, thank you very much."
[ 24. June 2016, 17:07: Message edited by: mr cheesy ]
--------------------
arse
Posts: 10697 | Registered: Sep 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
|
mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Al Eluia:
quote:
Originally posted by North East Quine:
Trump has tweeted that the place (Scotland) is going wild over the (Brexit) vote.
The mariachi band isn't celebrating Brexit, Donald!
WHERE IN SCOTLAND DID THEY FIND A MARIACHI BAND?
Fucking immigrants.
--------------------
This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
But that can't be true. It is hard to go anywhere in Cornwall, South Wales and other parts where there is a lot of EU funding without seeing EU-funded logos everywhere
That always put me off. If the British government builds something, it builds something. If the EU builds something, it builds it, and plasters it with enormous signs with EU flags on. It's much too in-your-face, and comes over as a Euro-federalist publicity campaign.
I was a remain supporter despite this.
[ 24. June 2016, 17:47: Message edited by: Leorning Cniht ]
Posts: 5026 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2013
| IP: Logged
|
|
Ariel
Shipmate
# 58
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
That always put me off. If the British government builds something, it builds something. If the EU builds something, it builds it, and plasters it with enormous signs with EU flags on. It's much too in-your-face, and comes over as a Euro-federalist publicity campaign.
It is an intentional publicity campaign. I read somewhere a while ago about a farmer who received a particular EU grant, one condition of which was that he was required to display a large sign in one of his fields, the sign to be constructed at his own expense to certain specifications and clearly visible from the roadside. He wasn't happy about it but the alternative was not getting the grant.
Posts: 25445 | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ariel:
I read somewhere a while ago about a farmer who received a particular EU grant, one condition of which was that he was required to display a large sign in one of his fields, the sign to be constructed at his own expense to certain specifications and clearly visible from the roadside. He wasn't happy about it but the alternative was not getting the grant.
This presumably being the same kind of person who rails about lack of financial transparency and money being hidden in offshore accounts...
Telling people where the money to fund a projet came from seems entirely reasonable to me, but perhaps this is just one of those areas where continental and British minds have never met.
--------------------
Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
|
Posted
I doubt any commercial undertaking would ever put a penny or cent into anything without its name being displayed. Why should public bodies be different?
--------------------
"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
I doubt any commercial undertaking would ever put a penny or cent into anything without its name being displayed. Why should public bodies be different?
The late GLC and most development corporations make similar displays.
--------------------
Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
I doubt any commercial undertaking would ever put a penny or cent into anything without its name being displayed. Why should public bodies be different?
Because public bodies are different? They are trustees of public funds.
And because if everywhere we went there was a bloody great sign saying "This street sanitized for your protection by the Anytown Municipal Department of Sanitation" and so on, we wouldn't be able to see either the wood or the trees, because they'd all be obscured by a forest of signs.
Posts: 5026 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2013
| IP: Logged
|
|
Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
I doubt any commercial undertaking would ever put a penny or cent into anything without its name being displayed. Why should public bodies be different?
Because public bodies are different? They are trustees of public funds.
And because if everywhere we went there was a bloody great sign saying "This street sanitized for your protection by the Anytown Municipal Department of Sanitation" and so on, we wouldn't be able to see either the wood or the trees, because they'd all be obscured by a forest of signs.
Howsabout we retain a sense of proportion?
--------------------
"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
I doubt any commercial undertaking would ever put a penny or cent into anything without its name being displayed. Why should public bodies be different?
Because public bodies are different? They are trustees of public funds.
All the more reason to show people what their taxes are being used for.
quote:
And because if everywhere we went there was a bloody great sign saying "This street sanitized for your protection by the Anytown Municipal Department of Sanitation" and so on, we wouldn't be able to see either the wood or the trees, because they'd all be obscured by a forest of signs.
It is quite usual in France, and I think many other European countries, for infrastructure projects etc. to have signs saying who has put up what proportion of the money. Like I say, I think this is a cultural difference.
--------------------
Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
|
Posted
I'm not quite sure how you qualify the UK National Lottery, but they stipulate that quote:
Grant holders must use our logo as widely as possible
You can download a nine-page booklet on just how they expect you to do that from that page too. Page 5 of it says quote:
Site boards and hoardings
All building or ground work funded by us must feature our logo prominently on all sides visible to the public. We expect this to be done soon after the works have begun when hoardings go up. Your contractor may take responsibility for this as they will want to put signs up with their own name and contact details, so please ensure that you provide them with our logo and they include it.
Why should EU funds be different?
[ 24. June 2016, 19:19: Message edited by: Eutychus ]
--------------------
Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
|
Posted
Just a post to share with fellow shipmates that I am so desolate about today's appalling news that I do not think I can any more about it for now. I feel deeply, and unshakeably ashamed of 51.9% of my fellow countrymen and women.
I have changed my sig.
--------------------
Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Firenze
Ordinary decent pagan
# 619
|
Posted
I recall travelling along roads in North America which had prominent signs saying 'Your tax dollars are going towards [specific works] on Highway X'.
When I was last working, it was on projects which had multiple funding sources - and one of my jobs was ensuring the relevant sponsoring logos - European Union, commercial, industrial, university - appeared on our material.
Posts: 17302 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Jun 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Ronald Binge
Shipmate
# 9002
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
Just a post to share with fellow shipmates that I am so desolate about today's appalling news that I do not think I can any more about it for now. I feel deeply, and unshakeably ashamed of 51.9% of my fellow countrymen and women.
I have changed my sig.
I feel like I have had a knife in my guts, and I hold a British passport. Despite that, with my Irish accent I consider that I am now potentially "the other" and not wanted now.
To twist the knife, living on the "wrong" side of the border because of caring for my ill father, has not mattered for years. Too soon it will.
--------------------
Older, bearded (but no wiser)
Posts: 477 | From: Brexit's frontline | Registered: Jan 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink.:
The positive bit of this unholy mess is that no-one is disputing fundamentally the legitmacy of the result or the obligation of the government to enact article 50. It was a clear,if close, vote on a high turnout.
It's a clear result, in that 52% of voters chose some form of Brexit. I'm still far from certain that 52% of voters chose Brexit under all the variants of that. As I've said several times before on this thread, the referendum lacked a clearly defined question - no plan for Brexit put forward in detail by the government. We had a serious of different organisations produce mutually contradictory versions of Brexit, with barely any more details than could be written on a fag packet. None of whom were in a position to even attempt to negotiate for a Brexit on those terms.
So, while we now know that we're heading for a Brexit, we still have no idea what the plan for Brexit is, or even who is going to be captain of that ship.
How can an unclear question result in a clear answer?
--------------------
Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
mark_in_manchester
not waving, but...
# 15978
|
Posted
Ronald -
Given the size of the remain vote in NI, could you imagine NI forming a 'used to be part of the UK, now a small country of the EU'-bloc with Scotland? (On the basis that a 'leave UK to join Dublin in the EU' sentiment seems obviously and impossibly devisive.)
I'm married to a woman from Dublin and have several friends in or from NI. It's the potential destabilisation of NI which worries me about this thing the most.
--------------------
"We are punished by our sins, not for them" - Elbert Hubbard
(so good, I wanted to see it after my posts and not only after those of shipmate JBohn from whom I stole it)
Posts: 1596 | Registered: Oct 2010
| IP: Logged
|
|
lowlands_boy
Shipmate
# 12497
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink.:
The positive bit of this unholy mess is that no-one is disputing fundamentally the legitmacy of the result or the obligation of the government to enact article 50. It was a clear,if close, vote on a high turnout.
It's a clear result, in that 52% of voters chose some form of Brexit. I'm still far from certain that 52% of voters chose Brexit under all the variants of that. As I've said several times before on this thread, the referendum lacked a clearly defined question - no plan for Brexit put forward in detail by the government. We had a serious of different organisations produce mutually contradictory versions of Brexit, with barely any more details than could be written on a fag packet. None of whom were in a position to even attempt to negotiate for a Brexit on those terms.
So, while we now know that we're heading for a Brexit, we still have no idea what the plan for Brexit is, or even who is going to be captain of that ship.
How can an unclear question result in a clear answer?
No no no - 52% to 48% is nowhere near clear enough...
So said Farage
--------------------
I thought I should update my signature line....
Posts: 836 | From: North West UK | Registered: Apr 2007
| IP: Logged
|
|
chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:
First, Cornwall is seeking reassurance that it will still receive EU grants (or equivalent subsidies from the UK, the article isn't entirely clear).
The other fact was that Cornwall voted 57/43 in favor of "Leave".
The combination of the two reminds me of that case a few months ago, of the woman on question time who had voted Tory, and had just had the dawning realisation that the tax credit cuts were about to hit her.
Posts: 4035 | From: Berkshire | Registered: May 2007
| IP: Logged
|
|
Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
|
Posted
One potential silver lining to this cloud might be that voters worldwide actually consider the implications of their vote before casting it...
--------------------
Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
kingsfold
Shipmate
# 1726
|
Posted
One can only dream....
However, realism says it ain't going to happen.
--------------------
I came to Jesus and I found in him my star, my sun.
And in that light of life I'll walk 'til travelling days are done
Posts: 4473 | From: land of the wee midgie | Registered: Nov 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by chris stiles:
quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:
First, Cornwall is seeking reassurance that it will still receive EU grants (or equivalent subsidies from the UK, the article isn't entirely clear).
The other fact was that Cornwall voted 57/43 in favor of "Leave".
The combination of the two reminds me of that case a few months ago, of the woman on question time who had voted Tory, and had just had the dawning realisation that the tax credit cuts were about to hit her.
Yup.
--------------------
All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
|
Posted
Heyyyyyy! Turkeys. Happy Xmas.
--------------------
Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
One potential silver lining to this cloud might be that voters worldwide actually consider the implications of their vote before casting it...
I suggest you have your apparent head injury checked soon. Do not go to sleep before doing so and please do not drive or operate heavy machinery.
--------------------
I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
One potential silver lining to this cloud might be that voters worldwide actually consider the implications of their vote before casting it...
Eutychus, get fucking REAL mate. We've seen NOTHING yet.
There WILL be blood. Charlie Hebdo and Syria and Bataclan and Iraq and Brussels Airport and Libya and Egypt and Tunisia and Turkey and Afghanistan and Pakistan and Indonesia and Palestine and Nigeria and Cameroon and are nothing.
The beginning of sorrows.
But we thrashed Sri Lanka by 10 wickets.
--------------------
Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Tukai
Shipmate
# 12960
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:
An appalling result.
As I've said before, the UK can't really expect much support from Commonwealth countries. Little consideration was given to them when the UK joined the EU. NZ in particular had severe problems after that, as did the Aust state of Tasmania. Since then the Commonwealth countries have realigned their economies as well as seek and retain other markets.
Yes.
Until the 1950s,most New Zealanders regarded themselves as more British than the British ("Greater Britain" was a phrase they used). And almost all their trade was with Britain (notably butter!) There was a huge sense of betrayal and outrage when the British Government started to negotiate about entry to the then European Common Market - taking Europe's butter mountain instead of NZ's "empire-made superior product".
It was similar in Australia , though less markedly so (except in some regions) , as trade diversification, a switch to the USA as our major defence ally and protector, and mass non-British migration were already underway since the 1940s.
--------------------
A government that panders to the worst instincts of its people degrades the whole country for years to come.
Posts: 594 | From: Oz | Registered: Sep 2007
| IP: Logged
|
|
Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
|
Posted
Wah hoo. 12 hours ago restrained myself from saying London will break away like Singapore from Malaya. I shouldn't have.
--------------------
Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
|
Posted
Brexit dude on newsnight is now saying they want to keep free movement of labour.
So in less than 24 hours that is the money for the nhs and the migration cap that the Brexiteers are now saying they won't deliver. Meanwhile, Calais would like us to put our border back on the UK mainline like they said wouldn't happen - whilst Soctland are prepping for a referendum Brexit said wasn't a realistic possibility.
Is anyone who voted leave feeling lied to yet ?
--------------------
All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
|
Posted
Happy Xmas turkeys!
--------------------
Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink.:
Brexit dude on newsnight is now saying they want to keep free movement of labour.
So in less than 24 hours that is the money for the nhs and the migration cap that the Brexiteers are now saying they won't deliver. Meanwhile, Calais would like us to put our border back on the UK mainline like they said wouldn't happen - whilst Soctland are prepping for a referendum Brexit said wasn't a realistic possibility.
Is anyone who voted leave feeling lied to yet ?
Was talking about this in Newbury High Street on the 23rd with an official Remain Rep. "Of course they (the Leave Campaign) are lying. That's a no-brainer. But it seems there are lots of folks around with no brains".
Some of the ignorance and naivety now being revealed is astonishing. Stupid has become the new zeitgeist.
[ 24. June 2016, 23:15: Message edited by: Barnabas62 ]
--------------------
Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
|
Posted
It's NOT their fault. We, as usual, the liberal, Christian 'intelligentsia' have FAILED the working class. Leave them the hell alone.
Sod it.
--------------------
Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
|
Posted
Trouble is, Martin, I come from those roots. Born to working class parents in the NE. My dad left school at 14. That didn't make him a mug. Rather the reverse in fact. He learned a lot in the school of hard knocks. He didn't do Stupid.
We lived in a mining community - most of our male neighbours worked in the pits. They didn't do Stupid either. Like my dad, they could spot a lie or a contradiction a mile off. Or someone who was false. This regardless of the lack of advantage in their upbringing.
--------------------
Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
Tukai
Shipmate
# 12960
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
One potential silver lining to this cloud might be that voters worldwide actually consider the implications of their vote before casting it...
There's a national election here in Australia next weekend. Here's hoping you're right.
--------------------
A government that panders to the worst instincts of its people degrades the whole country for years to come.
Posts: 594 | From: Oz | Registered: Sep 2007
| IP: Logged
|
|
Al Eluia
Inquisitor
# 864
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Adeodatus:
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
quote:
Originally posted by Adeodatus:
I've seen two news clips today of people who voted Leave, but who today are saying basically that it was a protest vote, they didn't expect Leave to win, and they're regretting it.
That's why we have a two-round presidential election in France. The idea is to get rid of all the spleen in the first round before getting round to the serious business of actually electing a president.
Sound method. Pity we didn't think of it a few months ago.
Of course a vote like Brexit is binary, so you can't really have a runoff. Unless it's along the lines of "Are you sure?"
Posts: 1157 | From: Seattle | Registered: Jul 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Stetson
Shipmate
# 9597
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by rufiki:
quote:
Originally posted by Adeodatus:
I've seen two news clips today of people who voted Leave, but who today are saying basically that it was a protest vote, they didn't expect Leave to win, and they're regretting it.
In other news, the British are frantically Googling what the E.U. is, hours after voting to leave it (Washington Post). ![[Waterworks]](graemlins/bawling.gif)
Well, in fairness, we don't really know which British people were googling that. It could have been a lot of people who hadn't voted at all, curious about what everyone was now talking about, in which case they're not open to the charge of uninformed voting.
Or, you probably have people who did vote, but want to get a more precise definition, because their kids asked them to explain it. Or any number of possibilities.
--------------------
I have the power...Lucifer is lord!
Posts: 6574 | From: back and forth between bible belts | Registered: Jun 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
|
Posted
Don't know if this is the time yet for a cross-pond question, but:
Since other countries are evidently making noises about doing similarly, does the EU have any kind of emergency brake available?
I'm guessing they can't just say to the UK, "wrong decision, try again". But if they can act to slow down an EU break-up, maybe that would also help give the *UK* some time and breathing room??
FWIW, YMMV.
--------------------
Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Stetson
Shipmate
# 9597
|
Posted
quote:
I'm guessing they can't just say to the UK, "wrong decision, try again". But if they can act to slow down an EU break-up, maybe that would also help give the *UK* some time and breathing room??
According to the headline in the Guardian, the EU doesn't seem much interested in giving the UK some time and breathing room.
"If the children want cake so bad, we should shove it down their throats until they choke"
Granted, who knows what the real agenda is, for either Schultz or the Guardian. Maybe they think there is an advantage in creating a sense of panic at this point, in order to somehow slam the brakes on the Brexit.
[ 25. June 2016, 02:51: Message edited by: Stetson ]
Posts: 6574 | From: back and forth between bible belts | Registered: Jun 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
|
Posted
Yeah, I was hoping that even if they don't want to stop the UK from leaving, they might want to prevent the others, so slow down everything. But who knows.
--------------------
Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Cod
Shipmate
# 2643
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Stetson:
quote:
According to the headline in the Guardian, the EU doesn't seem much interested in giving the UK some time and breathing room.
"If the children want cake so bad, we should shove it down their throats until they choke"
How charming ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif) . But perhaps Schultz should have spoken to his lawyers first.
Article 50 is triggered by a member state notifying the European Council of its intention to withdraw from the Union. A non-binding referendum (or even ratification of it) would not operate to do this - it requires notification from the UK government. Presumably this will take place in due course but one hopes at the time that is mutually most convenient.
--------------------
"I fart in your general direction."
M Barnier
Posts: 4229 | From: New Zealand | Registered: Apr 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Cod
Shipmate
# 2643
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
Don't know if this is the time yet for a cross-pond question, but:
Since other countries are evidently making noises about doing similarly, does the EU have any kind of emergency brake available?
I'm guessing they can't just say to the UK, "wrong decision, try again". But if they can act to slow down an EU break-up, maybe that would also help give the *UK* some time and breathing room??
FWIW, YMMV.
I think Article 50 (see link above) is clear in its wording. There is a two-year long-stop period unless a withdrawal agreement is reached within that time. I suppose that if agreement is not reached then the UK would revert to being a country with no trade or other agreements with EU member states. The various directives and so on issued by Brussels would continue to have force in the UK unless the Westminster legislation giving them force was amended or repealed.
There is provision for extension of time but only by unanimous agreement.
There will be all manner of complications to work through and I hope that cool heads will prevail.
FWIW I felt I had been gone from the UK for too long to responsibly cast my vote, so for the first time in my life I abstained.
--------------------
"I fart in your general direction."
M Barnier
Posts: 4229 | From: New Zealand | Registered: Apr 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink.:
Brexit dude on newsnight is now saying they want to keep free movement of labour.
To me it's looking more and more as if no politician on any side of the debate seriously expected Leave to win and have to deal with the consequences (thinking again of Farage's early claim on the night that Remain had won). It was a party political game of chicken which the electorate has just turned into a very real nightmare.
Ironically it is the unelected technocrats (like the governor of the Bank of England) - the very people Brexiters resent in Europe - who have actually made and implemented contingency plans to mitigate at least the immediate consequences of that outcome.
I think the UK remaining a member of the EEA (i.e. akin to Norway) is the least bad realistic outcome of the vote, and the most likely one at this point. It will fulfil few of the hardline Brexiters' aspirations, but it will at least enable them to claim they've "broken free of Europe".
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
Some of the ignorance and naivety now being revealed is astonishing. Stupid has become the new zeitgeist.
Prior to the vote, the Economist talked about "post-truth politics". As I've argued over in Hell, I don't think it's so much that people are stupid. I think it's that people don't see the truth as important and having actual consequences, because that is how much our society has devalued truth.
quote:
Originally posted by Cod:
Article 50 is triggered by a member state notifying the European Council of its intention to withdraw from the Union. A non-binding referendum (or even ratification of it) would not operate to do this - it requires notification from the UK government. Presumably this will take place in due course but one hopes at the time that is mutually most convenient.
The only politically feasible way of not going on to notify the European Council that I can see is if there were to be a General Election in the wake of a no confidence vote, within weeks or days, that elects a pro-Remain PM who basically pretends the referendum never happened.
I think that is both unlikely and with even more alarming potential results than Brexit: it would look like the political elite effectively ignoring the will of the people (no matter how bad I think this referendum was at determining it), i.e. more of the perception that got the UK into this mess in the first place.
I don't think the UK has all the time in the world to invoke article 50, because dragging out uncertainty is yet another even worse scenario than the present one.
Firstly, from the EU's point of view, the UK is now like those visitors in your front room past 10pm saying "well, we really must be going soon" - and not moving an inch. Pleasant conversation tends to pale quite fast in such circumstances.
Secondly, from an economic point of view, if the EU is a market that figures at all in a firm's business plans, there's going to be no way it will engage in anything more than minimal fresh capital investment in the UK until it has a clearer picture of what the final trade agreement will look like. Companies simply can't continue to operate effectively like that.
So there will be mounting pressure from all sides for the notification to happen fast.
--------------------
Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Ronald Binge
Shipmate
# 9002
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mark_in_manchester:
Ronald -
Given the size of the remain vote in NI, could you imagine NI forming a 'used to be part of the UK, now a small country of the EU'-bloc with Scotland? (On the basis that a 'leave UK to join Dublin in the EU' sentiment seems obviously and impossibly devisive.)
I'm married to a woman from Dublin and have several friends in or from NI. It's the potential destabilisation of NI which worries me about this thing the most.
I don't think any unionist in Northern Ireland would now become an Irish nationalist on foot of this. Some NI unionists may get an Irish passport for travel purposes - but this should not be confused with a desire for NI independence or a united Ireland.
[ 25. June 2016, 05:40: Message edited by: Ronald Binge ]
--------------------
Older, bearded (but no wiser)
Posts: 477 | From: Brexit's frontline | Registered: Jan 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
|
Posted
It wouldn't take many, possibly under-25s, to switch sides - the population is a fairly even split isn't if ?
--------------------
All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
Some of the ignorance and naivety now being revealed is astonishing. Stupid has become the new zeitgeist.
Prior to the vote, the Economist talked about "post-truth politics". As I've argued over in Hell, I don't think it's so much that people are stupid. I think it's that people don't see the truth as important and having actual consequences, because that is how much our society has devalued truth.
How is one better than the other?
Nearly 20% of young people didn't vote, eliminating their voice from the process out of apathy and ignorance.
Nearly all the old people did, many out of fear, ignorance and misinformation.
And, apparently a sizable number of people voted Leave as a form of protest because they were too stupid to realise those votes counted for real.
Perhaps you Christians are correct and there is a Beast. But he isn't one person, he is everybody. We'll know for certain after November.
--------------------
I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
|
Posted
Leave voters on TV stating they'd changed their minds, people saying they voted because the council had closed the public toilets etc doesn't exactly inspire feelings of warmth and togetherness in the hearts of the #indecentminority.
--------------------
All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
Some of the ignorance and naivety now being revealed is astonishing. Stupid has become the new zeitgeist.
Prior to the vote, the Economist talked about "post-truth politics". As I've argued over in Hell, I don't think it's so much that people are stupid. I think it's that people don't see the truth as important and having actual consequences, because that is how much our society has devalued truth.
Yes, I like the phrase "post-truth politics". Spinning, relativising, maneuvering for advantage have become ubiquitous. I guess they have always been there; for example I'm thinking of Jane Austen's often brilliant evocations of maneuvering for advantage in her novels. She used different words of course, but was excellent at illustrating truth and actual consequences.
But what I do think is new is this pervasive loss of connection. Placing a high value on truth is an antidote to being deceived and an antidote to carelessness. I grew up knowing that. As did most of the people around me at the time.
"Stupid is the new Zeitgeist" is admittedly only a catchy phrase. But I think it catches something about what is going on.
I also like lilBuddha's pithy observations.
Perhaps we can agree on this old insight? "Sow the wind and you reap the whirlwind". A baleful wind seems to be blowing hard these days and I'm worried about what it will blow over.
--------------------
Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
mrs whibley
Shipmate
# 4798
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Stetson:
quote:
Originally posted by rufiki:
quote:
Originally posted by Adeodatus:
I've seen two news clips today of people who voted Leave, but who today are saying basically that it was a protest vote, they didn't expect Leave to win, and they're regretting it.
In other news, the British are frantically Googling what the E.U. is, hours after voting to leave it (Washington Post).
Well, in fairness, we don't really know which British people were googling that. It could have been a lot of people who hadn't voted at all, curious about what everyone was now talking about, in which case they're not open to the charge of uninformed voting.
Or, you probably have people who did vote, but want to get a more precise definition, because their kids asked them to explain it. Or any number of possibilities.
I'll 'fess up to being a Brit who googled EU yesterday. It was because it was bugging me that I didn't actually know the date of the UK joining the (then) Common Market, and therefore whether I had been an EU national my whole life (I haven't). Not particularly relevant to my own vote!
--------------------
I long for a faith that is gloriously treacherous - Mike Yaconelli
Posts: 942 | From: North Lincolnshire | Registered: Aug 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
|
Posted
The Google anecdote is in and of itself an example of post-truth.
The "what is the EU" result did indeed rank second - but only among the rather tiny subset of searches relating to the EU.
--------------------
Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Printer-friendly view
