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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Purgatory: In, out, in, out; EU Referendum thread.
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Eirenist
Shipmate
# 13343
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Posted
On reflection, I think the message from the ex-industrial wastelands and other depressed areas is: 'So we're all in it together, are we? Well, see how you like it, then!' Which is, I suppose, fair enough - except that they've made their own position worse.
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'I think I think, therefore I think I am'
Posts: 486 | From: Darkest Metroland | Registered: Jan 2008
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Matt Black
Shipmate
# 2210
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Posted
Yes, their belief that, somehow, Whitehall is going to replace their EU grants with its own funds is 'a fond thing vainly imagined'.
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"Protestant and Reformed, according to the Tradition of the ancient Catholic Church" - + John Cosin (1594-1672)
Posts: 14304 | From: Hampshire, UK | Registered: Jan 2002
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PaulTH*
Shipmate
# 320
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Matt Black:
Yes, their belief that, somehow, Whitehall is going to replace their EU grants with its own funds is 'a fond thing vainly imagined'.
Bearing in mind that the UK is a net contributor to the EU, if Brexit goes ahead, it would be irresponsible in the extreme if Whitehall didn't make good EU grants to agriculture and poorer regions. They couldn't afford it if they were really to give £350 million a week to the NHS, but we all know what crap that was. But any money repatriated needs to be used to make good current commitments from the EU. We shouldn't tolerate less.
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Yours in Christ
Paul
Posts: 6387 | From: White Cliffs Country | Registered: May 2001
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Arethosemyfeet
Shipmate
# 17047
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Posted
The problem you've got is that the damage to the economy from Brexit far exceeds that returning revenue, so the money isn't going to be there to pay out. Plus any attempt to keep us in the EEA is going to involve continuing to at least as much (Norway pays the same per capita as we do). That money was a mirage from the start and anyone who was paying attention knew that.
Posts: 2933 | From: Hebrides | Registered: Apr 2012
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TurquoiseTastic
Fish of a different color
# 8978
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Posted
Nevertheless it might be a good idea for whatever government emerges from this mess to make good the EU funding - even if the money is not there, they ought to borrow it or make cuts elsewhere.
Posts: 1092 | From: Hants., UK | Registered: Jan 2005
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
Well, Osborne had already said there will need to be tax and other changes post-Brexit, based on Treasury advice and calculation. Oh, I forgot. That's just the "so-called experts" playing with your heads.
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
Looks like a bit of consolidation in the market, but I should think confidence will remain brittle for some time to come.
Nigel Farage was shameful in the European Parliament today. The riposte I enjoyed, and which he so richly deserved, was this one
quote:
Belgian ex-Prime Minister Guy Verhofstadt, who leads the liberal group in the European parliament, said Mr Farage had used "Nazi propaganda" in the referendum campaign, referring to a poster showing lines of refugees."Finally we are going to get rid of the biggest waste in the EU budget, which we have paid for 17 years, your salary!" he told Mr Farage.
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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Crœsos
Shipmate
# 238
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Arethosemyfeet:
The problem you've got is that the damage to the economy from Brexit far exceeds that returning revenue, so the money isn't going to be there to pay out. Plus any attempt to keep us in the EEA is going to involve continuing to at least as much (Norway pays the same per capita as we do). That money was a mirage from the start and anyone who was paying attention knew that.
Probably. UK GDP was £1,864.64 billion in 2015. Net contributions to the EU (money paid in minus money received back) was about £8.47 billion in 2015, or approximately 0.45% of GDP. All the realistic projections I've come across expect UK GDP to be depressed by significantly more than 0.45% after leaving the EU.
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Humani nil a me alienum puto
Posts: 10706 | From: Sardis, Lydia | Registered: May 2001
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Cheap at the price for the Anglo-Welsh working class wasteland. Things couldn't have got worse for them in their mind and now they just got better. They WON.
We can't beat Johnny foreign as Iceland showed and so we won't play any more. And now they'd better fuck off if they know what's good for them.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
Well, Martin, the working class wastelands are going to be in clover now. They will find new investments pouring in, new building projects, new hospitals, with reduced waiting times, and also a new Persil white environment, with no fuzzy-wuzzies. Boris is a demi-god.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
OUR fuzzy-wuzzies are all right, they voted fuck off too.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
OUR fuzzy-wuzzies are all right, they voted fuck off too.
I'm surrounded by the fuzzies. It's some of the white fuckers who are a drag. Can we deport them?
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Precedent says, when you're up, lynch the fuckers.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
This is not funny. The organisation I work for had to send an email out to all its staff today to reassure our eu/immigrant staff - after people had been contacting management worried about dealing with harassment in the local community.
[ 28. June 2016, 17:27: Message edited by: Doublethink. ]
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
You're right Doublethink. No excuse. Graveyard if not trench humour. But no excuse.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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mark_in_manchester
not waving, but...
# 15978
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Posted
quote:
Well, Martin, the working class wastelands are going to be in clover now.
Folks - the post-industrial north is largely mixed-race. Yes, there are some white pockets - but not like 20 years ago. Just one example near me - inner Salford - a white Beirut in 1990, now mixed and a lot calmer. The post-industrial bits are urban, and, in the main, the urban vote was 'remain'.
Look at the map again for leave bits - geographically, it's most of the country by area. This is semi-rural, like England is - inhabited by bypass man. These are white commuters, well off, Mail-reading. Those near me now in Cheshire probably think they're different from those I grew up around in Romford, but they're not - it's the same white commuter scene. These are not grumpy white lads who wish they could be doing what granddad (yes granddad - it's that long ago) used to do in't factory. Yes, some of those lads are driving a fork-lift and are pissed-off that their hourly rates are undercut by a seemingly unlimited supply of Poles. But in the main, I reckon it was not Paul Calf, but instead - to use a ship short-hand - Deano.
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"We are punished by our sins, not for them" - Elbert Hubbard
(so good, I wanted to see it after my posts and not only after those of shipmate JBohn from whom I stole it)
Posts: 1596 | Registered: Oct 2010
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Cod
Shipmate
# 2643
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Dafyd:
quote:
The fact that they're only consulting their lawyers now about a rather basic question is not encouraging.
Not so much evidence of the EU finding it unthinkable that anyone would leave, as evidence that the EU never thought anyone would leave in such a numpty-ish fashion.
I think there is mass delusion about this, to be honest. There has been widespread dissatisfaction in the UK with the EU's direction for decades. The country I left over a decade ago was pretty firmly Eurosceptic. I genuinely don't understand how this Leave vote seems by some to have come out of nowhere. Furthermore, I lived in on the most pro-EU bits before I left.
If the institutions of the EU took no account of this then they are the numpties, and if there is something improper about a member state democratically deciding to leave, then there is something very wrong with the EU.
On another subject, yesterday there was a very interesting article on the Guardian website by John Harris about how the EU had basically failed in its role of containing big business. I would link to it but I can't find it.
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"I fart in your general direction."
M Barnier
Posts: 4229 | From: New Zealand | Registered: Apr 2002
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PaulTH*
Shipmate
# 320
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Cod:
I think there is mass delusion about this, to be honest. There has been widespread dissatisfaction in the UK with the EU's direction for decades. The country I left over a decade ago was pretty firmly Eurosceptic.
We shouldn't overlook this. Every government in the last 35 years has been at times isolated in the EU, because there has never been any enthusiasm here for ever closer political union. It started with Thatcher's confrontational approach, for which her party finally ousted her. But John Major and Tony Blair also had their share of disagreements. Major had to fight hard for Britain's opt out from the Euro. The other member states have always seen Britain as a malcontent that always wants more and wants exemptions, and often, after much bad feeling, they've been granted. Now that the southern flank of Europe's countries have lost their ability to devalue their currencies against the richer north, they have stagnant economies and 50% youth unemployment.
In general, the British have never wanted this. In 1975, in a world in which trade tariffs were huge, we voted to join a free trade area. Globalisation has changed the world a lot since then. WTO rules limit EU tariffs to a maximum of 6%, a figure it would be much better if we didn't have to pay, but it's debatable if that would cost more than we could save in our EU budget contributions. This is assuming that Mrs Merkel is willing to defy her business class who want her to maintain free trade with the UK. I am still saddened by the vote, and somewhat fearful for the future. I think successive British governments have successfully protected us from the worst excesses of Euro-Federalism and I felt no compelling reason to leave. But there's a lot wrong with the EU which is in need of serious reform.
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Yours in Christ
Paul
Posts: 6387 | From: White Cliffs Country | Registered: May 2001
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Dafyd
Shipmate
# 5549
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Cod:
If the institutions of the EU took no account of this then they are the numpties, and if there is something improper about a member state democratically deciding to leave, then there is something very wrong with the EU.
But has the member state democratically decided to leave the EU? Or has it democratically decided to sit about twiddling its thumbs? Who knows? The EU doesn't know; it would like to find out. David Cameron doesn't know. If Bloody Stupid Johnson knows he's doing his best to hide it.
[ 28. June 2016, 19:55: Message edited by: Dafyd ]
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we remain, thanks to original sin, much in love with talking about, rather than with, one another. Rowan Williams
Posts: 10567 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Feb 2004
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
hosting/
quote:
Originally posted by mark_in_manchester:
But in the main, I reckon it was not Paul Calf, but instead - to use a ship short-hand - Deano.
No personal attacks or caricatures outside Hell, please.
/hosting
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Dafyd:
But has the member state democratically decided to leave the EU? Or has it democratically decided to sit about twiddling its thumbs? Who knows? The EU doesn't know; it would like to find out.
And so, they have resolved to find out:
http://www.europarl.europa.eu/sides/getDoc.do?pubRef=-//EP//TEXT+TA+P8-TA-2016-0294+0+DOC+XML+V0//EN
"5. Warns that in order to prevent damaging uncertainty for everyone and to protect the Union’s integrity, the notification stipulated in Article 50 TEU must take place as soon as possible; expects the UK Prime Minister to notify the outcome of the referendum to the European Council of 28-29 June 2016; this notification will launch the withdrawal procedure;"
"7. Recalls that any new relationship between the UK and the EU may not be agreed before the conclusion of the withdrawal agreement;"
One wonders if they were influenced at all by Farage's performance earlier, where he clearly was trying to be deliberately insulting as he would be best served by a failed deal - he can than crow about how they let down 'decent' people before starting to ramp up his fascist rhetoric.
Posts: 4035 | From: Berkshire | Registered: May 2007
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Cod:
... If the institutions of the EU took no account of this then they are the numpties, and if there is something improper about a member state democratically deciding to leave, then there is something very wrong with the EU. ...
It is not the EU's job to do that. That is saying that you don't want it to be a superstate but that it has failed to be one.
No. All - and I mean all - the guilt lies firmly with our own politicians. They have used 'blame Europe for it' as an excuse for not doing what they had power to do themselves but didn't want to. I'd accept that if they said 'we'd like to but we can't afford to'. That's often true. But not 'we'd love to help but we're not allowed to', when that is not true.
The EU has contributed to this by not openly giving more acknowledgement to subsidiarity. But our government has resisted that good idea within the UK.
The ultimate failing lies with our governments, and that none of us had noticed they were getting away with it.
Somebody told me recently that they had voted leave because the EU had failed the poor and marginalised. But the EU doesn't stop governments helping the poor and marginalised. I've tried to explain that, but they neither want to hear nor are willing to explain why they say that.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by chris stiles:
And so, they have resolved to find out
Resolved non-bindingly, it should be specified.
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Og: Thread Killer
Ship's token CN Mennonite
# 3200
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Posted
Has there been discussion in here about the 1 out of 3 visible minorities voters going for Brexit?
Seems an inconvenient truth when it comes to the narrative.
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I wish I was seeking justice loving mercy and walking humbly but... "Cease to lament for that thou canst not help, And study help for that which thou lament'st."
Posts: 5025 | From: Toronto | Registered: Aug 2002
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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Og: Thread Killer:
Has there been discussion in here about the 1 out of 3 visible minorities voters going for Brexit?
Seems an inconvenient truth when it comes to the narrative.
Because black people can't be worried about large numbers of Eastern European migrants?
Posts: 5026 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2013
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Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Og: Thread Killer:
Has there been discussion in here about the 1 out of 3 visible minorities voters going for Brexit?
Seems an inconvenient truth when it comes to the narrative.
Look at US history. The Irish migrated in their droves particularly from the 1850's on; given their treatment in Ireland, who can blame them. They were then the underclass in the US. 50 years or so later, there was a wave from Eastern Europe, and in their turn, the Irish-Americans did their best to oppress them. And the cycle went on. Much the same here, but delayed a bit and with much smaller numbers. In both instances continuing to the present day.
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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
Posts: 7028 | From: Warrawee NSW Australia | Registered: Jun 2008
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
Yes. The usual US thing, for that kind of prejudice, is to hate the most recent group of people.
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
The old version of this is that those who have been oppressed, and are now emancipated, look around for someone to oppress. Rather a cynical view, I suppose, the example often given is Israel.
In psychological terms, one faces this with abused people - some of them deal with it by abusing the helper.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
And hazing rituals, such as at fraternities. People keep passing the hurt on, rather than making things easier for the next round of people. (Broad brush--sometimes, things do get better.)
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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Og: Thread Killer
Ship's token CN Mennonite
# 3200
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Posted
Aaa....so the reason some people of colour (or whatever the term is in the UK) voted remain is they were previously oppressed?
I raised this point because the narrative was "Leave people are stupid and possibly racist". Demonising people is always easier then dealing with the actual reasons why people didn't do what you prefer.
Have any of you bothered to actually listen face to face to somebody who voted leave?
We saw that here in Toronto with Rob Ford - the racist mayor of Toronto who's true base was largely non-white living in poverty in the inner suburbs. When you went out and talked to people in the inner suburbs, they voted for that guy because he said he was going to change their currently crappy lives.
Could it just be possible the Remain campaign didn't provide enough hope? Its not that simple of course because the large inner city areas voted Remain (although it would be interesting to look at who in the inner cities voted exit rather then assuming First Past the Post means everybody else's views don't matter)
On another note, the same unwillingness to look towards root causes in Brexit are being seen in English football. Consistency is good I suppose.
[ 29. June 2016, 11:30: Message edited by: Og: Thread Killer ]
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I wish I was seeking justice loving mercy and walking humbly but... "Cease to lament for that thou canst not help, And study help for that which thou lament'st."
Posts: 5025 | From: Toronto | Registered: Aug 2002
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Og: Thread Killer:
Aaa....so the reason some people of colour (or whatever the term is in the UK) voted remain is they were previously oppressed?
I raised this point because the narrative was "Leave people are stupid and possibly racist". Demonising people is always easier then dealing with the actual reasons why people didn't do what you prefer.
Have any of you bothered to actually listen face to face to somebody who voted leave?
We saw that here in Toronto with Rob Ford - the racist mayor of Toronto who's true base was largely non-white living in poverty in the inner suburbs. When you went out and talked to people in the inner suburbs, they voted for that guy because he said he was going to change their currently crappy lives.
Could it just be possible the Remain campaign didn't provide enough hope? Its not that simple of course because the large inner city areas voted Remain (although it would be interesting to look at who in the inner cities voted exit rather then assuming First Past the Post means everybody else's views don't matter)
On another note, the same unwillingness to look towards root causes in Brexit are being seen in English football. Consistency is good I suppose.
I'm not sure who you are speaking to, but I certainly don't think there are simple reasons for people voting Leave. I come from Oldham, which had a decent Labour majority in a recent by-election, yet voted Leave. One factor is probably racism, as there were quite bad riots several years ago, white and Asian youths mainly.
But I suspect that also some Labour voters wanted to say fuck off to Cameron, and I can sort of get alongside that. However, the idea of cutting off your nose to spite your face, comes to mind.
Most obvious perhaps, is that areas such as that were deindustrialized, and since the 70s have been neglected really. Well, many people feel unheard.
Quite a cocktail really, which would be difficult for Labour to combat.
Nonetheless, I think the idea of projected oppression has some credence - for example, why do white youths say, 'they get the best jobs and houses?' The poor often fight the poor, unkindly called by Freud the narcissism of small differences.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Callan
Shipmate
# 525
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by PaulTH*:
quote:
Originally posted by Matt Black:
Yes, their belief that, somehow, Whitehall is going to replace their EU grants with its own funds is 'a fond thing vainly imagined'.
Bearing in mind that the UK is a net contributor to the EU, if Brexit goes ahead, it would be irresponsible in the extreme if Whitehall didn't make good EU grants to agriculture and poorer regions. They couldn't afford it if they were really to give £350 million a week to the NHS, but we all know what crap that was. But any money repatriated needs to be used to make good current commitments from the EU. We shouldn't tolerate less.
The trouble is that it assumes the economy is a static thing with a given pot of money. Even if we get our 180m back it might have to be spend on making up the gaps from the fall in growth caused by Brexit. And, let's face it, nothing in the previous history of anyone on the Leave side indicates that lobbing money at depressed working class areas is much of a priority for them.
Unrelatedly, I gather that one option on the table is what is called EEA-, proposed by the French. The deal would be a cap on migration access to the single market, and no passport for banks based in the UK. The passport is what allows banks in the EU to trade in all other member countries of the EU. This would lead to massive capital flight to the EU whilst allowing Boris to come back in triumph claiming that he had squared the circle of banning free movement and getting access to the single market whilst screwing over our financial services sector. In the short term it means he gets hailed as a genius whilst, in the longer term, making us much poorer. Granted, the UK ought not to be as dependent upon the financial sector as it actually is but doing over the financial sector without first identifying an adequate replacement strikes me as being, erm, bold of not entirely prudent.
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How easy it would be to live in England, if only one did not love her. - G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 9757 | From: Citizen of the World | Registered: Jun 2001
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
I suppose there is also a resentment which is non-rational. For example, you may get an area voting Leave, which has had big grants from the EU, and now has to ask the British government for similar subventions.
But this could be partly rational for other reasons, of course. But resentment tips over into ressentiment, and even the desire to smash things up. In psychoanalytic jargon: destructive envy.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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alienfromzog
Ship's Alien
# 5327
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by PaulTH*:
In general, the British have never wanted this. In 1975, in a world in which trade tariffs were huge, we voted to join a free trade area. Globalisation has changed the world a lot since then. WTO rules limit EU tariffs to a maximum of 6%, a figure it would be much better if we didn't have to pay, but it's debatable if that would cost more than we could save in our EU budget contributions. This is assuming that Mrs Merkel is willing to defy her business class who want her to maintain free trade with the UK.
It's not about tariffs.
Tariffs are not particularly important. Yes it's better not to have them but that's easy to deal with. It's about trade regulation and harmonization. In any number of areas, the rules and regulations with govern things are agreed on an EU-wide basis.
So if you make a car in the UK (Still one of the biggest car manufacturers - anyone who says we don't make anything anymore is lying to you or doesn't know what they are talking about) you can sell it anywhere in the EU without further certification or checks. This means that all of the safety rules are met, the consumer protections, all of the components and supply chain are certified and the emissions are within limits.*
Let us imagine that you want to make cars in a country outside the EU but sell to the EU. You then have to make sure that what you produce meets the regulations for both - the country you're making them in (assuming you want to sell there too) and the EU.
One of two things will happen - either the UK and EU regulations will diverge over time and the costs to manufacturers will increase or the UK will simply copy the EU rules for simplicity.
Economies of scale mean that is is much cheaper to do safety tests on a European-wide basis that for each member country to do it themselves. However the big cost is in manufacturing to different standards.
Contrary to what you might have heard, almost nothing gets agreed in Europe without the consent of the big-3 (UK, France, Germany), so the notion that the rules were forced on us is ridiculous.
If the UK simply mimics EU regulations (What I expect to happen) then we will have no say in writing the regulations we then have to abide by - regulations that we could veto until 6 days ago! If we do become part of the EEA (which I don't expect) this will be formalised.
Alternatively over time the UK will set up all its own regulatory constructs creating more costs for business and decreasing productivity.
A lot of inward investment to the UK was predicated on access the the EU markets - this will now go elsewhere. I have a nagging feeling that Ireland will end up benefiting as much of the world want an English-speaking route to the EU.
Many businesses will move their bases to be in the EU and surely this is even more likely for services?
Of course the UK will still trade with the EU but that's not the point, it will be reduced and that ultimately makes us worse off.
There are only 2 ways that we can be better off:
1) If our trade with the rest of the world is somehow accelerated by being outside the EU to a large enough extent that it compensates for this loss - that is most unlikely as we have given away our best bargaining chip (access to the EU).
2) The EU is about the collapse in on itself and we have saved ourselves by getting out when we can. (A friend of mine voted leave on this basis).
Anyway, whilst it is entirely possible that I am wrong, this is not just a gut-feeling or an emotional reaction, it is that if you look at the facts and not the propaganda and you think about for more than say 20s, it really is clear cut that leaving is a bad idea.
And I don't really like the EU and think it desperately needs reform.
AFZ
*Stop sniggering!
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Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts.
[Sen. D.P.Moynihan]
An Alien's View of Earth - my blog (or vanity exercise...)
Posts: 2150 | From: Zog, obviously! Straight past Alpha Centauri, 2nd planet on the left... | Registered: Dec 2003
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Og: Thread Killer:
Aaa....so the reason some people of colour (or whatever the term is in the UK) voted remain is they were previously oppressed?
No. When one is at the bottom, the easiest way up is to stand on top of someone else.
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I raised this point because the narrative was "Leave people are stupid and possibly racist". Demonising people is always easier then dealing with the actual reasons why people didn't do what you prefer.
But those are the actual reasons many voted Leave. Racists voted to Leave. Calling the remainder of the Leavers stupid is a fair cop because the electorate entire votes less on reason than emotion.
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Have any of you bothered to actually listen face to face to somebody who voted leave?
Yes. And my interpretation stands.
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We saw that here in Toronto with Rob Ford - the racist mayor of Toronto who's true base was largely non-white living in poverty in the inner suburbs. When you went out and talked to people in the inner suburbs, they voted for that guy because he said he was going to change their currently crappy lives.
Same reason poor people vote Tory and Republican. And it is stupid as well.
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Could it just be possible the Remain campaign didn't provide enough hope?
Possible. But one reason Leave won is that they did provide enough fear.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Og: Thread Killer:
Have any of you bothered to actually listen face to face to somebody who voted leave?
Yes, I had a couple of conversations with Christians who had voted Leave, were shocked at various reports of racism in the news, but had been posting various 'The Turks are coming!' scare stories on Facebook in the weeks leading up to the vote.
They didn't see the connection, and claimed that things had turned racist because of the main-stream-media who were pro-Remain. ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
Posts: 4035 | From: Berkshire | Registered: May 2007
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by chris stiles:
quote:
Originally posted by Og: Thread Killer:
Have any of you bothered to actually listen face to face to somebody who voted leave?
Yes, I had a couple of conversations with Christians who had voted Leave, were shocked at various reports of racism in the news, but had been posting various 'The Turks are coming!' scare stories on Facebook in the weeks leading up to the vote.
They didn't see the connection, and claimed that things had turned racist because of the main-stream-media who were pro-Remain.
I heard an alternative comment from a Christian, on hearing that the Turks were coming. "Goodness" she said "76 million people who need to hear the Gospel".
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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alienfromzog
Ship's Alien
# 5327
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
I heard an alternative comment from a Christian, on hearing that the Turks were coming. "Goodness" she said "76 million people who need to hear the Gospel".
That made me smile.
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Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts.
[Sen. D.P.Moynihan]
An Alien's View of Earth - my blog (or vanity exercise...)
Posts: 2150 | From: Zog, obviously! Straight past Alpha Centauri, 2nd planet on the left... | Registered: Dec 2003
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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by chris stiles:
had been posting various 'The Turks are coming!' scare stories on Facebook in the weeks leading up to the vote.
Is being worried about Turkish migrants when Turkey joins the EU necessarily racist?
It could be, of course, but I'm not sure that it is (unless any and every national interest argument is automatically racist, in which case everyone who's not campaigning hard for one world government it a racist...)
Turkey is a large country with a young, rapidly growing population that is poor by EU standards. In other words, a prime source of economic migrants. When Turkey gets free movement, there are going to be lots of young Turks on the move. This is indisputable.
So here's the question: Is a large influx of economic migrants good for the people that we currently have? If it is, we don't need to wait for Turkey to join the EU. We can go out and attract migrant workers from Turkey or elsewhere, and offer them work visas and a pathway to citizenship. But we're not doing that.
It's clear that large EU companies benefit from Turkey joining the EU: it gives them free access to Turkey's markets, so they can go in and buy it all while it's still cheap.
It's equally clear that, whether you're the man on the Clapham omnibus or the Paris metro, you're not going to be moving to Turkey in search of work.
Why are people in the UK complaining about immigrants from Eastern Europe, but not immigrants from France or Germany? It's not because they like the French any better - it's because there's little net migration. A few of ours go over there, a few of theirs come over here - fair play, everyone's happy.
What benefit do they get from Poland? If you're an employer of labour, then having a ready supply of skilled Polish labour is good for you. If you are the labour, what's in it for you?
Posts: 5026 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2013
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
Is being worried about Turkish migrants when Turkey joins the EU necessarily racist?
Not necessarily racist. It's going to depend upon the reasons for the worries.
If the issue is one of pressure on local amenities (schools, housing, hospitals...) then the issue is simply the number of people arriving in the area, and it doesn't matter where they come from. The same with people coming in to take up low paid, poor condition jobs while there are local people unemployed (but, presumably, not willing to take those jobs). If someone suggests that someone from elsewhere in the UK is OK, but that someone from outside the UK is a problem then it's racist/xenophobic.
I would say that anyone who is worried because of differences in culture, who doesn't want to see a Polish bakery on the High Street, etc is very likely to be displaying racist or xenophobic views.
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
If someone suggests that someone from elsewhere in the UK is OK, but that someone from outside the UK is a problem then it's racist/xenophobic.
Not sure I quite agree.
Partly, it's the net migration thing. If we shuffle people around in the UK, and the balance is roughly even, nobody cares.
If you're seeing a large net migration from other parts of the UK, then there certainly are racist cultural objections (cf. Welsh and Scottish objections to incomers), there are objections based on incomers not integrating with the community (cf. Cornish folk objecting to rich London weekenders, especially those who don't even shop in their weekend home, but stop at Waitrose in London on the way).
But if I say that I prefer to employ the UK resident, on the grounds that I pay for the UK resident anyway, but don't need to pay for a foreigner when he's in his own country, that's neither a racist nor a xenophobic objection.
It's a simple national interest objection.
Posts: 5026 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2013
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chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
Is being worried about Turkish migrants when Turkey joins the EU necessarily racist?
Apart from the fact that they aren't going to do so in the forseeable future, and that the UK will get a veto when they apply to join, you mean?
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When Turkey gets free movement
The only thing on the cards at the minute is visa free travel to the Schengen area (which doesn't include UK&I). What was being posted were links to articles on visa free travel, wrapped in the implication that 76 million Turks were arriving imminently.
Posts: 4035 | From: Berkshire | Registered: May 2007
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Og: Thread Killer
Ship's token CN Mennonite
# 3200
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Posted
Ok, thanks for all that.
I'll go back to this then - has anybody listened to a non-white person who voted Leave(I'm not sure if Facebook counts as listening but I suppose it might)?
I'm obviously not there but as I said I've learned through experience that populism can be quite successful among parties the easy narrative would assume would not be susceptible.
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I wish I was seeking justice loving mercy and walking humbly but... "Cease to lament for that thou canst not help, And study help for that which thou lament'st."
Posts: 5025 | From: Toronto | Registered: Aug 2002
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
If we shuffle people around in the UK, and the balance is roughly even, nobody cares.
It depends on what you mean by "shuffle". If the number of people moving from one town to other towns is approximately equal as those moving in, then you're right no one should care. If there's a large net influx of people into a town then, yes, people often care because government policy usually results in there being a lack of amenities for them - so, more pressure on schools, doctors etc. But, in both cases if the reaction of people to this migration, net or otherwise, is different depending on whether people have moved from elsewhere in the UK or from elsewhere in the EU (directly or via somewhere else in the UK) then there is an issue over and above the simple issue of migration. That is the point at which migration comes racism and xenophobia attached. And, you're right, it's not any better if that is directed at English people moving to Scotland.
quote:
But if I say that I prefer to employ the UK resident, on the grounds that I pay for the UK resident anyway, but don't need to pay for a foreigner when he's in his own country, that's neither a racist nor a xenophobic objection.
It's a simple national interest objection.
I'm not sure I follow. If you employ someone then you pay the same regardless of where they are from (all other things such as qualifications and experience being equal). It is illegal to do anything else. By definition, if you're employing someone then they are no longer in a foreign country because they have moved to do the job. Unless you're talking about out-sourcing work to suppliers in other countries, but that's not related to immigration as far as I can tell.
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by chris stiles:
quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
Is being worried about Turkish migrants when Turkey joins the EU necessarily racist?
Apart from the fact that they aren't going to do so in the forseeable future, and that the UK will get a veto when they apply to join, you mean?
I think you mean "the UK would have got a veto when they apply to join". Unless the UK rejoins the EU before Turkey apply there will now not be a UK vote on that decision, as a non-member we don't get a say on who is allowed to join.
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
I think you mean "the UK would have got a veto when they apply to join".
Yes of course - at the time we hadn't pulled the trigger.
Posts: 4035 | From: Berkshire | Registered: May 2007
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fausto
Shipmate
# 13737
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Posted
I read a comment somewhere else that Scotland "holds veto power" over the UK's decision to invoke Article 50. Is that actually true as a matter of law? Does the Scottish parliament in fact have to formally consent before the UK can invoke Article 50? Or is it more of an indirect thing -- that the prospect of provoking another referendum on Scottish independence would effectively inhibit Whitehall from invoking Article 50 if it seemed likely to result in Scottish secession from the UK?
Either way, it is increasingly looking as though the vote last week was probably only the start of the game, not the finish.
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"Truth did not come into the world naked, but it came in types and images. The world will not receive truth in any other way." Gospel of Philip, Logion 72
Posts: 407 | From: Boston, Mass. | Registered: May 2008
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Callan
Shipmate
# 525
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Posted
The Turkey thing was entirely a red herring. Not only would the UK have had a veto on Turkish accession but so would Greece and so would Cyprus. For those of you not paying attention for the last 40 odd years Turkey occupied Northern Cyprus in 1974 and some kind of resolution to the issue would be necessary for Turkish accession to be a reality. Cameron was unwilling to state during the Referendum campaign that he would veto Turkish accession because relations with Turkey are rather important to British foreign policy in the Middle East and flipping the bird to a NATO ally with land borders with Syria and Iraq would have been somewhat imprudent. The Leave side, of course, cynically exploited this. In an irresponsible, mendacious and racist campaign it would be rash to say that this was the most morally disgusting thing they did but it was certainly there or thereabouts.
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How easy it would be to live in England, if only one did not love her. - G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 9757 | From: Citizen of the World | Registered: Jun 2001
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Og: Thread Killer:
I'll go back to this then - has anybody listened to a non-white person who voted Leave(I'm not sure if Facebook counts as listening but I suppose it might)?
One, so far. He is racist and a bit of a nutter. But too small a sample to determine for everyone of colour.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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PaulTH*
Shipmate
# 320
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by fausto:
Does the Scottish parliament in fact have to formally consent before the UK can invoke Article 50?
Alex Salmond has now acknowledged that Scotland has no legal veto on invoking Article 50. When Nicola Sturgeon visited Brussels today and met Juncker and others, she was warmly received, but politely shown the door. Scotland is not an independent country, especially as the words on the 2014 ballot paper were, "Should Scotland be an independent country?" and it was voted down. But the SNP were never going to accept that democratic verdict. They were always going to bide their time until the opportunity arose to make more mischief for the union. The Brexit vote is manna from heaven for them.
But they don't have a case. Should London be able to negotiate with the EU alone? it has double the population of Scotland. Should Ceredigion seek independence from Wales because it voted Remain? But like all ideological positions, rather than pragmatic views the SNP see this as an opportunity even though they trade far more with the rest of the UK than they do with the rest of the EU. Trade barriers between England and Scotland would be economic insanity for Scotland, but it could encourage friction with the auld enemy.
It remains to be seen if, as Brexit negotiations gather pace, Scotland can cut some sort of deal. Whether, if it seeks and gets independence, it can carry on as a EU member, or if it would need to reapply, wait years and make a commitment to taking the euro. Everything is to play for.
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Yours in Christ
Paul
Posts: 6387 | From: White Cliffs Country | Registered: May 2001
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