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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Purgatory: In, out, in, out; EU Referendum thread.
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
And you can bet that the BBC will turn anything that Cameron obtains into something highly dramatic and important, even if it's new kinds of perforation in loo paper. Although I suppose the right-wing press will pour cold water on his cosmetic offerings.
For me, Cameron looks humiliated, charging round Europe, trying to fake an orgasm. And all this is to unify the Tory party?
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
I'll have what he is having.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
quote:
Marvin the Martian: If it's so important for the EU to stay together, regardless of the negative impact it may have on any particular nation state, then why don't they just give the UK everything it wants so that it stays in?
Go back to the analogy EU ≡ marriage, and see if this makes any sense.
Of course it doesn't. Which means that there are considerations at play other than "the EU must stay together in order to prevent war".
As an aside, in marriage analogy terms I think the UK is currently engaged to someone who will almost certainly (based on past behaviour) become an abusive spouse, and the wedding date is rapidly approaching. And I'm really hoping we see sense and call the whole thing off before it's too late.
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338
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Posted
Actually I think you may find that the reason Mr Cameron is looking so chipper (he was looking very chipper this morning) is because the EU is saving him from having to be a PM that promotes staying in while secretly wishing he could lead the OUT campaign.
I'm sure Mr C has read The Prince...
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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
Posts: 4950 | From: somewhere in England... | Registered: Sep 2012
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TurquoiseTastic
Fish of a different color
# 8978
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
quote:
Marvin the Martian: If it's so important for the EU to stay together, regardless of the negative impact it may have on any particular nation state, then why don't they just give the UK everything it wants so that it stays in?
Go back to the analogy EU ≡ marriage, and see if this makes any sense.
Of course it doesn't. Which means that there are considerations at play other than "the EU must stay together in order to prevent war".
There are. But there shouldn't be. I don't think any of the member states are taking this danger seriously enough. The Germans sort of get that the EU is more important than national interest, but I don't think even they are really thinking in these terms. I think they ought to be, though.
I would extend the quote by adding: "and so that if war comes, we have a better chance of forming a solid bloc rather than being played off against each other by whoever it might be, i.e. the Russians."
quote:
As an aside, in marriage analogy terms I think the UK is currently engaged to someone who will almost certainly (based on past behaviour) become an abusive spouse, and the wedding date is rapidly approaching. And I'm really hoping we see sense and call the whole thing off before it's too late.
Too late already Marvin. Stay together for the sake of the children.
For those who are complaining that they were lied to in 1975 - I get that, and I agree it was highly reprehensible. But part of the point of a referendum ought to be that for a change you are making your own decision rather than having a representative deciding for you. Ergo it is not enough to shift responsibility onto Heath et al.. You should have found out the truth rather than accepting the government booklets.
Posts: 1092 | From: Hants., UK | Registered: Jan 2005
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
It probably has myxomatosis.
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
Marvin the Martian: there are considerations at play other than "the EU must stay together in order to prevent war".
Duh.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
It probably has myxomatosis.
If that isn't the case then the mercury in the hat has probably made it go mad.
More seriously, if the other 28 states all agree to the deal, it really can't be much of a deal. Maybe Cameron, in his heart of hearts wants "out" and through this deal will get that although he won't have to campaign for it.
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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Rocinante
Shipmate
# 18541
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
More seriously, if the other 28 states all agree to the deal, it really can't be much of a deal. Maybe Cameron, in his heart of hearts wants "out" and through this deal will get that although he won't have to campaign for it. [/QB]
I've been wondering that for a while - either Cameron genuinely did go into these negotiations thinking (unrealistically) that he could secure real reform, and has become disillusioned by the lack of progress, or it was indeed all a cynical ploy to bring about Brexit. Also if he campaigns for "in" and loses he has a perfect excuse to resign and get himself on the lucrative lectures and consultancy gravy train - he's probably been casting envious glances in Blair's direction for some time.
In a way I can share his frustration - the EU is in real danger of losing its second-largest net contributor and the general attitude seems to be a Gallic shrug and a "whatever..".
Of course, Cameron made the mistake of showing his hand from the beginning. Everyone knew he would never campaign for "out".
Posts: 384 | From: UK | Registered: Jan 2016
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L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338
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Posted
The so-called 'deal' is, as widely predicted, nothing of the sort. No curb on benefits for migrant workers' non-resident children until 2020, details of how to limit other benefits have to be agreed on a state-by-state basis. No mention of a brake on migration.
Yes, specific mention that the UK can remain outside the Eurozone - but that was the case already, just not down in any treaty.
Yes, the UK government can act unilaterally on regulation and taxation of financial services - but only within certain parameters where this has always been the case; any change has to be agreed by at least 17 other states and I can't see that happening, can you?
All mention of security is a red-herring: in any case, as journalists in Europe have noted in the past, many of our problems in the UK have been of our own making through allowing the existence of 'Londonistan' in the 80s and early 90s, and no amount of co-operation, either through the EU or otherwise, can alter that. What could help is for the European Court of Human Rightsto stop handing down lunatic judgments along the lines of 'right to family life' trumping concerns of national security - but that is not something the EU can change or control.
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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
Posts: 4950 | From: somewhere in England... | Registered: Sep 2012
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L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338
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Posted
If you want light relief try this:
http//www.private-eye.co.uk/current-issue
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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
Posts: 4950 | From: somewhere in England... | Registered: Sep 2012
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L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338
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Posted
Sorry - try this
current-issue; click on "covers" if it doesn't take you straight to it.
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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
Posts: 4950 | From: somewhere in England... | Registered: Sep 2012
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
I see that Mr. Cameron has returned from Europe triumphantly bearing a piece of paper which presumably has upon it the signature of (among many others) the German Chancellor ....
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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lowlands_boy
Shipmate
# 12497
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Posted
Will be interesting to see the detail behind the referendum arrangements, and the repercussions that are possible.
I know that for all the detail, the referendum question will simply be in our out. But if we vote to leave in June, it's not as if that's going to mess up this summer's holiday plans is it? It's going to take years and years and years to actually get out isn't it? The practicalities are enormous.
We could still be in by the time of the next general election, which could lead to all sorts of strange promises being made by other parties to get us back in....
Labour will be campaigning to stay in, according to Corbyn. So if the PM loses the in vote, they'll surely be going on about how much of a loser he is (literally....). Would they go for a vote of no confidence in the government?
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I thought I should update my signature line....
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TonyK
Host Emeritus
# 35
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lowlands_boy:
....
Labour will be campaigning to stay in, according to Corbyn. So if the PM loses the in vote, they'll surely be going on about how much of a loser he is (literally....). Would they go for a vote of no confidence in the government?
Which might well be what Cameron will need to reunite the Conservative party!!
Frankly I'm underwhelmed - all the promises and bold statements have resulted in virtually no change. I'm still undecided, but doubt that we'll be able to see any hard facts in the blizzard of spin that will now follow.
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Yours aye ... TonyK
Posts: 2717 | From: Gloucestershire | Registered: May 2001
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TurquoiseTastic
Fish of a different color
# 8978
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Posted
Malcolm Rifkind says that Putin will be "dancing in the Kremlin" if Britain leaves. I agree with him of course.
I think the explicit removal of "ever closer union" is very significant and more ought to be made of this. When I was a Eurosceptic this would have convinced me to stay in. Now it worries me a little because I suspect federation would be a good long-term goal (for most of the reasons outlined in "The Federalist Papers").
Interesting that "Le Figaro" is distressed by the concessions made to Britain and says they have "put the worm into the fruit". They feel that Britain staying on these terms is as bad as Brexit for the European project.
Posts: 1092 | From: Hants., UK | Registered: Jan 2005
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by TurquoiseTastic:
I think the explicit removal of "ever closer union" is very significant and more ought to be made of this.
Can you find that claim in writing? From the (French) sites I have read, François Hollande is claiming no treaty concessions have been made, and as has been posted above I don't see how they could have been; the negotiating group did not have that power.
As far as I can see this claim of opting out of "ever-closer union" actually refers to a re-iteration of the UK's right to opt out of the Euro, which I understand was already assured.
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Dave W.
Shipmate
# 8765
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
quote:
Originally posted by TurquoiseTastic:
I think the explicit removal of "ever closer union" is very significant and more ought to be made of this.
Can you find that claim in writing? From the (French) sites I have read, François Hollande is claiming no treaty concessions have been made, and as has been posted above I don't see how they could have been; the negotiating group did not have that power.
As far as I can see this claim of opting out of "ever-closer union" actually refers to a re-iteration of the UK's right to opt out of the Euro, which I understand was already assured.
According to the European Council meeting conclusions, p. 16, they've agreed on the substance and will make the treaty changes at the next revision:
quote:
It is recognised that the United Kingdom, in the light of the specific situation it has under the Treaties, is not committed to further political integration into the European Union. The substance of this will be incorporated into the Treaties at the time of their next revision in accordance with the relevant provisions of the Treaties and the respective constitutional requirements of the Member States, so as to make it clear that the references to ever closer union do not apply to the United Kingdom.
The references in the Treaties and their preambles to the process of creating an ever closer union among the peoples of Europe do not offer a legal basis for extending the scope of any provision of the Treaties or of EU secondary legislation. They should not be used either to support an extensive interpretation of the competences of the Union or of the powers of its institutions as set out in the Treaties.
These references do not alter the limits of Union competence governed by the principle of conferral, or the use of Union competence governed by the principles of subsidiarity and proportionality. They do not require that further competences be conferred upon the European Union or that the European Union must exercise its existing competences, or that competences conferred on the Union could not be reduced and thereby returned to the Member States.
Posts: 2059 | From: the hub of the solar system | Registered: Nov 2004
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Ricardus
Shipmate
# 8757
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Rocinante:
I've been wondering that for a while - either Cameron genuinely did go into these negotiations thinking (unrealistically) that he could secure real reform, and has become disillusioned by the lack of progress, or it was indeed all a cynical ploy to bring about Brexit. Also if he campaigns for "in" and loses he has a perfect excuse to resign and get himself on the lucrative lectures and consultancy gravy train - he's probably been casting envious glances in Blair's direction for some time.
I think Mr Cameron's entire political philosophy is that being Prime Minister is an end in itself regardless of any actual achievements in that role. In order to be Prime Minister, it is sometimes necessary to perform these little theatrical pieces to keep the backbenchers happy, but that should not be confused with the substance of the job.
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Then the dog ran before, and coming as if he had brought the news, shewed his joy by his fawning and wagging his tail. -- Tobit 11:9 (Douai-Rheims)
Posts: 7247 | From: Liverpool, UK | Registered: Nov 2004
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.:
According to the European Council meeting conclusions, p. 16, they've agreed on the substance and will make the treaty changes at the next revision
Thank you.
I'm not an expert, but that to me seems to be a clarification of what I for one had also assumed: that the references to "ever closer union" are an expression of broad aspiration rather than imposing specific measures; and that no mesure can be imposed without recognition by existing Member States. In other words, that any treaty change will simply specify that this aspiration does not entail binding obligations on the UK - but then it never did anyway.
Certainly on this side of the Channel and at this end of it, there has always appeared (to me at least) to be plenty of leeway in how much that "ever closer union" is applied, so there's nothing new there.
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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TurquoiseTastic
Fish of a different color
# 8978
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
quote:
Originally posted by TurquoiseTastic:
I think the explicit removal of "ever closer union" is very significant and more ought to be made of this.
Can you find that claim in writing? From the (French) sites I have read, François Hollande is claiming no treaty concessions have been made, and as has been posted above I don't see how they could have been; the negotiating group did not have that power.
As far as I can see this claim of opting out of "ever-closer union" actually refers to a re-iteration of the UK's right to opt out of the Euro, which I understand was already assured.
Here is Donald Tusk's letter. If you look at the section about "sovereignty" and the first link within the letter, it spells out in some detail that the UK is not committed to further political integration.
Although in line with what I've said previously, and people's experiences in 1975, I think one would be well advised to recognise that in voting to stay, one may well de facto be voting for eventual political union.
Posts: 1092 | From: Hants., UK | Registered: Jan 2005
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TurquoiseTastic
Fish of a different color
# 8978
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Posted
Sorry - cross-posted - the conclusions document posted by Dave W. says it better.
Posts: 1092 | From: Hants., UK | Registered: Jan 2005
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by TurquoiseTastic:
If you look at the section about "sovereignty" and the first link within the letter, it spells out in some detail that the UK is not committed to further political integration.
I'm not spending the time on this it doubtless deserves, but I note that he writes, emphasis mine, quote:
in light of the UK's special situation under the Treaties, it is not committed to further political integration
In other words, as I said this is a clarification and not something new. I guess (but it is a guess, based on what I recall Hollande as saying) that this existing provision relates the UK not being in the Eurozone. If anyone knows better, feel free to correct me.
quote:
I think one would be well advised to recognise that in voting to stay, one may well de facto be voting for eventual political union.
Yes, there is a sense of this simply being kicked down the road - but, I would venture to suggest, by decades at the very least. And even a week is a long time in politics (which is why I think Cameron's foray into referendum territory is such a ridiculous gamble).
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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TurquoiseTastic
Fish of a different color
# 8978
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Posted
I am not sure that circumstances will allow us the luxury of decades. I think external and internal pressures will force things to a point sooner than that.
Posts: 1092 | From: Hants., UK | Registered: Jan 2005
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balaam
Making an ass of myself
# 4543
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ricardus:
quote:
Originally posted by Rocinante:
I've been wondering that for a while - either Cameron genuinely did go into these negotiations thinking (unrealistically) that he could secure real reform, and has become disillusioned by the lack of progress, or it was indeed all a cynical ploy to bring about Brexit. Also if he campaigns for "in" and loses he has a perfect excuse to resign and get himself on the lucrative lectures and consultancy gravy train - he's probably been casting envious glances in Blair's direction for some time.
I think Mr Cameron's entire political philosophy is that being Prime Minister is an end in itself regardless of any actual achievements in that role. In order to be Prime Minister, it is sometimes necessary to perform these little theatrical pieces to keep the backbenchers happy, but that should not be confused with the substance of the job.
If we look down the telescope the other way and ask not 'is Britain better off in or out of the EU' and ask instead, 'is the EU better off without the UK' we can come to some concluions. The answer to the second question, as far as the leaders of the other EU countries is a resounding NO!
The EU is better off with the UK in membership. So Mr Cameron was always going to get some kind of deal. The complication is that other Prime Ministers (such as Greece) have taken the opportunity to negotiate their deals ai the same time (the Greek one being about their refugee crisis).
There was always going to be some kind of deal.
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Last ever sig ...
blog
Posts: 9049 | From: Hen Ogledd | Registered: May 2003
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Dave W.
Shipmate
# 8765
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
quote:
Originally posted by TurquoiseTastic:
If you look at the section about "sovereignty" and the first link within the letter, it spells out in some detail that the UK is not committed to further political integration.
I'm not spending the time on this it doubtless deserves, but I note that he writes, emphasis mine, quote:
in light of the UK's special situation under the Treaties, it is not committed to further political integration
In other words, as I said this is a clarification and not something new. I guess (but it is a guess, based on what I recall Hollande as saying) that this existing provision relates the UK not being in the Eurozone. If anyone knows better, feel free to correct me.
I suppose Hollande is entitled to his own opinion, but I don't see anything in the meeting conclusions that connects an exemption from "ever closer union" only to remaining outside the Eurozone.
Immediately after a paragraph on p. 9 that begins
quote:
Recalling that the Treaties, together with references to the process of European integration and to the process of creating an ever closer union among the peoples of Europe, contain also specific provisions whereby some Member States are entitled not to take part in or are exempted from the application of certain provisions or chapters of the Treaties and Union law ...
the document notes some of these provisions with respect to the UK:
quote:
Recalling in particular that the United Kingdom is entitled under the Treaties:
- not to adopt the euro and therefore to keep the British pound sterling as its currency (Protocol No 15),
- not to participate in the Schengen acquis (Protocol No 19),
- to exercise border controls on persons, and therefore not to participate in the Schengen area as regards internal and external borders (Protocol No 20),
- to choose whether or not to participate in measures in the area of freedom, security and justice (Protocol No 21),
- to cease to apply as from 1 December 2014 a large majority of Union acts and provisions in the field of police cooperation and judicial cooperation in criminal matters adopted before the entry into force of the Lisbon Treaty while choosing to continue to participate in 35 of them (Article 10(4) and (5) of Protocol No 36),
Recalling also that the Charter of Fundamental Rights of the European Union has not extended the ability of the Court of Justice of the European Union or any court or tribunal of the United Kingdom to rule on the consistency of the laws and practices of the United Kingdom with the fundamental rights that it reaffirms (Protocol No 30) ...
Posts: 2059 | From: the hub of the solar system | Registered: Nov 2004
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
Though, all of those provisions are written into several different treaties. Because, each step towards "growing political union" has followed a new European treaty agreed by all member states. In some cases, that agreement has only been achieved by writing in provisions to exclude some member states from the full effect of the treaty.
The irony is that when the next treaty comes along the UK will ensure there are some provisions in it to keep the UK outside the full implementation, and the UK government will sign us up. I guarantee that we won't be offered a referendum at that point when we could be offered a 3-way vote (accept the full treaty, accept the treaty with the provisions that keep us a bit outside, reject the treaty). Because we'll have had the referendum for our generation, which will be a vote on Cameron's worthless bit of paper.
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
What an utter, utter non-event. A total irrelevance.
Is there a true cost benefit to this vain little farce?
How much do EURO BENEFIT SCROUNGERS cost 'us'?
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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alienfromzog
Ship's Alien
# 5327
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
What an utter, utter non-event. A total irrelevance.
Is there a true cost benefit to this vain little farce?
How much do EURO BENEFIT SCROUNGERS cost 'us'?
About a fiver...
There is an actual figure our there somewhere but I can't be bothered to find it. The actual money is so tiny as to be hilarious.
![[Disappointed]](graemlins/disappointed.gif)
So, here's my two-cents (Euro) worth...
I am emotionally euro-skeptic. But, I will be voting to stay in the EU. Having looked at the facts, there is no doubt in my mind that Britain (for lots of reasons) is much better off in the EU. That's not to say the EU doesn't need some meaningful changes:
Here are the top 2:
1) The common agricultural policy needs sorting out. Big time.
2) Stop the nonsense of holding the parliament in two different cities...
What's so ridiculous is how the whole circus is an attempt by Cameron to tinker around the edges of completely unimportant issues so he can pretend to be a macho defender of Britain (or rather England really... Think St George against the Dragon). Why has he done this? To deal with internal politics of the Conservative party. Boris is still playing politics with it.
So, here we are; a national referendum on a vital issue with Cameron (complete waste of time negotiations) on one side against Farage & half the Conservative Party (fantasy politics) on the other do try and stop the Tory party tearing itself apart.
It's all so depressing. This is David Cameron who considers himself a strong leader...
AFZ
P.S. Only kidding that was my tuppence worth: good of BRITISH pound none of your foreign money here...
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Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts.
[Sen. D.P.Moynihan]
An Alien's View of Earth - my blog (or vanity exercise...)
Posts: 2150 | From: Zog, obviously! Straight past Alpha Centauri, 2nd planet on the left... | Registered: Dec 2003
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
We seem to have gone a long way from the noble ideals set out by the author of the future EU, Robert Schumann, who said in 1949: "We are carrying out a great experiment, the fulfillment of the same recurrent dream that for ten centuries has revisited the peoples of Europe: creating between them an organization putting an end to war and guaranteeing an eternal peace".
He also said, "The European spirit signifies being conscious of belonging to a cultural family and to have a willingness to serve that community in the spirit of total mutuality, without any hidden motives of hegemony or the selfish exploitation of others. ... Our century ... must attempt and succeed in reconciling nations in a supranational association. This would safeguard the diversities and aspirations of each nation while coordinating them in the same manner as the regions are coordinated within the unity of the nation".
[ 21. February 2016, 08:49: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Agreed AFZ and q at the top of the page. This is ONLY about Conservative Party politics, it has NO effect on any real human being.
There are Tory weirds like Grayling and Gove (who WAS decent to George Galloway after he was attacked, which DOES go a long way) that even Boris must feel queasy about being associated with, who get their British history from Geoffrey of Monmouth.
The ever more excellent Alex Salmond (it's me that's changed, not he) said from Aberdeen on the truly pathetic, empty, hollow, supine, flaccid, high Tory BBC yesd'y or Friday, it's about thirty MILLION quid, a £ a taxpayer head, compared with the £10,000 a head we English are trying to rip off the Scots.
Thanks to the Union the Scots will keep us in regardless.
Cameron: 'Judge me on Europe.'. I have.
[ 21. February 2016, 09:22: Message edited by: Martin60 ]
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Bugger. £3bn / 5m (Scots) = 600, half of whom are tax payers: 250 => £1,200, rounded = £1,000 a tax payer.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
Apparently IDS thinks the UK staying in the EU increases the risk of terrorist attacks there ![[Paranoid]](graemlins/paranoid.gif)
Next thing you know, they'll be putting fluoride in the water...
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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alienfromzog
Ship's Alien
# 5327
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
Apparently IDS thinks the UK staying in the EU increases the risk of terrorist attacks there
Next thing you know, they'll be putting fluoride in the water...
The games begin.
I may change my mind on this referendum. It may be just what the UK needs. I mean watching the Tory party tear itself apart is always good sport and ultimately very good for Britain.
Please God, give them over to their own ridiculousness.
AFZ
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Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts.
[Sen. D.P.Moynihan]
An Alien's View of Earth - my blog (or vanity exercise...)
Posts: 2150 | From: Zog, obviously! Straight past Alpha Centauri, 2nd planet on the left... | Registered: Dec 2003
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L'organist
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# 17338
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Posted
Actually I think all he did was point out that Schengen has made it much easier for everyone to move around, and that includes people terrorists.
And that is nothing more than the truth - you only have to look at the ease with which the people responsible for the November Paris attacks moved around to see the proof of that.
So, strengthened border controls, and no special right of entry for EU citizens, should make it possible for the UK to exert some control over who does and who doesn't enter the country.
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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
Actually I think all he did was point out that Schengen has made it much easier for everyone to move around, and that includes people terrorists.
The last time I looked a) the UK wasn't in Schengen b) residency of a non-EU citizen in a EU country does not automatically grant access to the UK, so just how the UK leaving would change that is beyond me.
I suppose he has a point in that invariably, the UK doesn't bother to check at all who leaves its soil
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Sioni Sais
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# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
Actually I think all he did was point out that Schengen has made it much easier for everyone to move around, and that includes people terrorists.
The last time I looked a) the UK wasn't in Schengen b) residency of a non-EU citizen in a EU country does not automatically grant access to the UK, so just how the UK leaving would change that is beyond me.
I suppose he has a point in that invariably, the UK doesn't bother to check at all who leaves its soil
The vast majority of terrorist attacks on UK soil have been carried out by those who have a perfectly good right to residence in the UK. Most were born here. EU/Schengen membership is an irrelevance in almost all instances of terrorism in the UK.
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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chris stiles
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# 12641
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by alienfromzog:
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
What an utter, utter non-event. A total irrelevance.
Is there a true cost benefit to this vain little farce?
How much do EURO BENEFIT SCROUNGERS cost 'us'?
About a fiver...
There is an actual figure our there somewhere but I can't be bothered to find it. The actual money is so tiny as to be hilarious.
The figure I saw for child benefit amounted to about 30m over 10 years.
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Rocinante
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# 18541
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Posted
As has been pointed out by Andrew Rawnsley and others, with his own party split down the middle, Cameron is now reliant on Labour delivering a large block of "in" voters to save his premiership (not his party, the Tory party will go on without him.)
Jeremy Corbyn must be very torn, he has internationalist instincts but no great love for the EU in its present form. He seems to be planning to remain largely aloof from all this, possibly hoping the Tories will tear themselves to shreds without any assistance from him...he may not be wrong.
Posts: 384 | From: UK | Registered: Jan 2016
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Eirenist
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# 13343
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Posted
(Rant alert)
Everyone true-born Englishperson is an immigrant, or a descendant of immigrants.
We mustsurely be insane even to think of closing the door on hard-working, willing Eastern Europeans but opening the door to oligarchs and kleptocrats who bring or bank their loot here.
The end of Brexit is that our country will become a glorified tax haven, and, however prosperous Switzerland may be, that in an inglorious example to follow.
(End of rant.)
I wish you all joy in a world run by the likes of Donald, Vladimir and Boris.
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'I think I think, therefore I think I am'
Posts: 486 | From: Darkest Metroland | Registered: Jan 2008
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
The vast majority of terrorist attacks on UK soil have been carried out by those who have a perfectly good right to residence in the UK. Most were born here. EU/Schengen membership is an irrelevance in almost all instances of terrorism in the UK.
It's the same in France. Which hasn't stopped the current government trying to drive through legislation to strip binationals of their French nationality on the back of the terrorist attacks (even though they've admitted it would make no actual difference).
It depresses me to see people capitalising on events to argue in favour of erecting walls (hasn't someone else been in trouble for that lately?) when the trouble is as much domestic as international, and resort to fear instead of rational discourse. It's at times like these that I veer towards believing the likes of Naomi Klein's The Shock Doctrine.
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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lilBuddha
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# 14333
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Posted
Terrorism is a gift to conservative politics.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Terrorism is a gift to conservative politics.
The current president and government in France are supposedly socialist (European definition), although their hard left have a hard time believing that themselves right now.
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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lilBuddha
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# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Terrorism is a gift to conservative politics.
The current president and government in France are supposedly socialist (European definition), although their hard left have a hard time believing that themselves right now.
Point taken.
Terrorism is a gift to those unscrupulous enough to use its threat to gain power or win points.
[ 21. February 2016, 16:53: Message edited by: lilBuddha ]
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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lowlands_boy
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# 12497
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Posted
Boris Johnson is going for the out campaign. Which will at least add a bit of spectacle to the spectacle....
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I thought I should update my signature line....
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Sioni Sais
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# 5713
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Posted
Well folks, who needs Strictly Come Dancing or Big Brother with The Referendum Show in town?
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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Ricardus
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# 8757
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by chris stiles:
The figure I saw for child benefit amounted to about 30m over 10 years.
There is the amusing possibility that if benefits paid to children in Poland are benchmarked to the cost of living in Poland, instead of to whatever arbitrary figure the Teeasury thinks it can get away with, then children in Poland could end up getting it at a higher rate ...
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Then the dog ran before, and coming as if he had brought the news, shewed his joy by his fawning and wagging his tail. -- Tobit 11:9 (Douai-Rheims)
Posts: 7247 | From: Liverpool, UK | Registered: Nov 2004
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Martin60
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# 368
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Posted
Thanks Chris. What a sodding farce.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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