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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Purgatory: In, out, in, out; EU Referendum thread.
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
The Establishment, sorry, The Economist says:
By calculating European immigrants’ share of the cost of government spending and their contribution to government revenues, the scholars [of UCL & Milan] estimate that between 1995 and 2011 the migrants made a positive contribution of more than £4 billion ($6.4 billion) to Britain, compared with an overall negative contribution of £591 billion for native Britons. Between 2001 and 2011, the net fiscal contribution of recent arrivals from the eastern European countries that have joined the EU since 2004 has amounted to almost £5 billion. Even during the worst years of the financial crisis, in 2007-11, they made a net contribution of almost £2 billion to British public finances. Migrants from other European countries chipped in £8.6 billion.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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TurquoiseTastic
Fish of a different color
# 8978
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Posted
The Economist also says:
"Mr. Putin has for several years been giving material support to populist and nativist parties in Europe that oppose the EU"
Posts: 1092 | From: Hants., UK | Registered: Jan 2005
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chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by TurquoiseTastic:
The Economist also says:
"Mr. Putin has for several years been giving material support to populist and nativist parties in Europe that oppose the EU"
Which in Eastern Europe is certainly true, in the same way that the west has been funding opposition parties in the former Soviet Republics.
Posts: 4035 | From: Berkshire | Registered: May 2007
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Firenze
Ordinary decent pagan
# 619
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Posted
And I see Borry is all for Leaving. I believe this in the same way as I believe in Trump's Christian values - a cynical ploy to get a certain constituency onside so that they will support his ultimate personal ambition.
Posts: 17302 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Jun 2001
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
I mean WHAT could that be? Apart from the bleeding obvious. He gets to be prime minister of little England? Is that it? He must have always been anti-EU. So ambition is secondary to that. Surely?
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Firenze
Ordinary decent pagan
# 619
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Posted
I think that there are those for whom ambition is second to nothing - not even to bonking everything with a pulse.
Not that I am even thinking of a specific application.
Posts: 17302 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Jun 2001
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Is this a Heseltine vs. Thatcher moment? Or even better, Portillo vs. Major?
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Ricardus
Shipmate
# 8757
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
He must have always been anti-EU. So ambition is secondary to that. Surely?
I believe he consistently supported Ken Clarke as leader. Mr Clarke is one of the most pro-EU Tories around. Make of that what you will ...
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Then the dog ran before, and coming as if he had brought the news, shewed his joy by his fawning and wagging his tail. -- Tobit 11:9 (Douai-Rheims)
Posts: 7247 | From: Liverpool, UK | Registered: Nov 2004
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Firenze:
And I see Borry is all for Leaving. I believe this in the same way as I believe in Trump's Christian values - a cynical ploy to get a certain constituency onside so that they will support his ultimate personal ambition.
![[Overused]](graemlins/notworthy.gif)
I'm sure that's bang on, and so's the parallel.
One thing the announcement over the weekend has done, is that it's flushed the farts out of the foliage. I decided months ago that I will vote to stay in. But would any sane person want to follow a movement which has Nigel Farage, Chris Grayling, Boris Johnson and Gorgeous George Galloway squabbling over which of them is going to run it?
Cameron is no scintillator. Nor is Tusk or any of the other ones. And Baptist Trainman's comment is telling.
quote:
I see that Mr. Cameron has returned from Europe triumphantly bearing a piece of paper which presumably has upon it the signature of (among many others) the German Chancellor ....
But it isn't just about trading. The EU is a major reason why since 1945 our neighbours and ourselves have bickered in acrimonious words rather than with bombs, guns and trenches.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
Of course, for much of the time since 1945 Europe has been divided, with an uneasy peace. France, Britain, Germany (and other former western European "great powers") have been united in the belief that the Soviet Union was a bigger threat than each other.
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
As Enoch said, the Leave campaign now resembles a weird kind of Punch and Judy show, where all the puppets are drunk or broken. What an unattractive bunch.
I'm baffled why Cameron has called this referendum, I suppose it has revealed how many strange people and strange ideas exist in British politics.
I was briefly tempted by Leave, just to protest at Cameron's bizarre ploy of using a referendum to sort out the Tory party, but Boris joining is the final straw. Leave is becoming a right-wing bunch of, well, right-wing nutters, plus odd-balls like Galloway and Field. Entertaining though, they should do a song and dance act.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
But Boris has produced the argument of all arguments against the EU - they have restricted the suction power of vacuum cleaners.
Is this why Magna Carta was signed? Is this why our 'Enery lifted his leg over his brother's wife's (leg)? Is this why the white cliffs of Dover are composed of billions of invertebrates?
Vote Leave for more power to your suction! Your spouse/partner will be delighted as never before!
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
I'm baffled why Cameron has called this referendum,
Distraction. Another tool of the politician.
Speaking of tools, has anyone ever seen Boris and Trump in the same room?
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
As Enoch said, the Leave campaign now resembles a weird kind of Punch and Judy show, where all the puppets are drunk or broken. What an unattractive bunch.
Ohhh for Spitting Image to return to our screens!
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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Rocinante
Shipmate
# 18541
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
As Enoch said, the Leave campaign now resembles a weird kind of Punch and Judy show, where all the puppets are drunk or broken. What an unattractive bunch.
Ohhh for Spitting Image to return to our screens!
No need. Boris is a living, breathing spitting image puppet - with Cameron in his pocket like the two Davids.
Boris clearly sees political advantage in this - he's betting that whatever the outcome of the referendum, the Tory party will want their next leader to be a bona fide Eurosceptic.
Posts: 384 | From: UK | Registered: Jan 2016
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Anglican't
Shipmate
# 15292
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
I'm baffled why Cameron has called this referendum
Were you baffled by the Welsh Assembly, AV and Scottish independence referendums?
Posts: 3613 | From: London, England | Registered: Nov 2009
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Doone
Shipmate
# 18470
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Posted
[/qb][/QUOTE]Boris clearly sees political advantage in this - he's betting that whatever the outcome of the referendum, the Tory party will want their next leader to be a bona fide Eurosceptic. [/QB][/QUOTE]
You've hit the nail on the head there!
Posts: 2208 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2015
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Doone
Shipmate
# 18470
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Posted
Sorry, I mucked up the quoting then! ![[Hot and Hormonal]](icon_redface.gif)
Posts: 2208 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2015
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
The AV referendum was baffling. I'm still not sure what that was about, except trying to keep the Libdems onboard by giving a referendum for an electoral reform that no one actually wanted.
Of course, the devolution referenda were different. They were responses to increasing demands for further sovereignty in Scotland and Wales. And, offered by Labour (so, nothing to do with Tory internal politics). Ditto for the Scottish Independence referendum.
It would have made much more sense for the government to put a statute in place that would guarantee a referendum to decide on the next European treaty. As it is, when common sense prevails and we get a massive majority in favour of remaining in the EU, and then the next treaty will be passed through Westminster without any direct say by the electorate.
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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Ricardus
Shipmate
# 8757
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
Of course, the devolution referenda were different. They were responses to increasing demands for further sovereignty in Scotland and Wales. And, offered by Labour (so, nothing to do with Tory internal politics). Ditto for the Scottish Independence referendum.
Support for leaving the EU isn't currently much lower than support for Scottish independence, at least if one trusts the polls.
I think Mr Cameron's renegotiation is an annoying distraction, but I think he is right to try to put the issue to rest. (Though the rushed nature of the referendum will have the opposite effect.)
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Then the dog ran before, and coming as if he had brought the news, shewed his joy by his fawning and wagging his tail. -- Tobit 11:9 (Douai-Rheims)
Posts: 7247 | From: Liverpool, UK | Registered: Nov 2004
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alienfromzog
Ship's Alien
# 5327
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
The AV referendum was baffling. I'm still not sure what that was about, except trying to keep the Libdems onboard by giving a referendum for an electoral reform that no one actually wanted.
Me, me, me!
I'm in favour of AV!!!
I am. It's not a bad system at all, for lots of reasons but hey... according to the No to AVposters it kills babies and doesn't support our boys and girls in uniforms so it must be evil...
So, our current Prime Minister is using a referendum on an issue of national importance to try and manage the idiots in his own party. The most charismatic candidate to replace him as leader (and hence potential PM) is using the same referendum to play politics to serve his own ambition over the national interest.
What a proud party they must be.
AFZ
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Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts.
[Sen. D.P.Moynihan]
An Alien's View of Earth - my blog (or vanity exercise...)
Posts: 2150 | From: Zog, obviously! Straight past Alpha Centauri, 2nd planet on the left... | Registered: Dec 2003
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
Well, I also voted in favour of AV - it has the advantage of being better than FPTP (which is easy, since anything is better than FPTP). I would still have prefered either an additional member system similar to what we have in Scotland, or a proper proportion representation (and, I think the majority of the LibDems at the time would have done so as well).
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
alienfromzog wrote:
quote:
So, our current Prime Minister is using a referendum on an issue of national importance to try and manage the idiots in his own party. The most charismatic candidate to replace him as leader (and hence potential PM) is using the same referendum to play politics to serve his own ambition over the national interest.
Disillusioned with politics? Why?
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
Chapelhead: And that staunch and lifelong Eurosceptic, Jeremy Corbyn, is sticking to his principles, by backing the 'remain' campaign.
I for one find it refreshing to see someone who is a bit more nuanced than a black and white "You're either for the EU or you're against it".
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Chapelhead:
And that staunch and lifelong Eurosceptic, Jeremy Corbyn, is sticking to his principles, by backing the 'remain' campaign.
Any chance of a citation or two regarding his lifelong Euroscepticism? I remember he voted against the Euro, but then so did many people.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Chapelhead
I am
# 21
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
quote:
Chapelhead: And that staunch and lifelong Eurosceptic, Jeremy Corbyn, is sticking to his principles, by backing the 'remain' campaign.
I for one find it refreshing to see someone who is a bit more nuanced than a black and white "You're either for the EU or you're against it".
Like Boris Johnson.
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
quote:
Originally posted by Chapelhead:
And that staunch and lifelong Eurosceptic, Jeremy Corbyn, is sticking to his principles, by backing the 'remain' campaign.
Any chance of a citation or two regarding his lifelong Euroscepticism? I remember he voted against the Euro, but then so did many people.
How far back do you want to go - his vote against British membership of the EEC in 1975?
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At times like this I find myself thinking, what would the Amish do?
Posts: 9123 | From: Near where I was before. | Registered: Aug 2001
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
I suspect that changing your mind once in 40 years is allowed.
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338
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Posted
Mr Corbyn voted against remaining in the EEC in 1975 - in fact he campaigned against the EEC with (amongst others) Tony Benn and Enoch Powell.
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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
Posts: 4950 | From: somewhere in England... | Registered: Sep 2012
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chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
Mr Corbyn voted against remaining in the EEC in 1975 - in fact he campaigned against the EEC with (amongst others) Tony Benn and Enoch Powell.
Whereas Boris Johnson will be campaigning against remaining in the EU, 8 months after he wrote that he supported staying in the EU. In doing so he will campaign alongside George Galloway.
Posts: 4035 | From: Berkshire | Registered: May 2007
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alienfromzog
Ship's Alien
# 5327
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
quote:
Chapelhead: And that staunch and lifelong Eurosceptic, Jeremy Corbyn, is sticking to his principles, by backing the 'remain' campaign.
I for one find it refreshing to see someone who is a bit more nuanced than a black and white "You're either for the EU or you're against it".
Yep, his article in the Guardian explaining his position was clear, well thought-through and well-reasoned.
Compare and contrast.
The greatest irony for me is all the nonsense about UK sovereignty. The real threat to our national sovereignty is TTIP. If the EU signs that then all of Europe (EU members, I mean) has a problem. The biggest supporters of TTIP within the EU? Have a guess, go on...
Now that I want a referendum on!
Let me put it like this:
[b]Should foreign corporations be allowed to use arbitration outside our legal system to challenge government decisions? artbitration
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Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts.
[Sen. D.P.Moynihan]
An Alien's View of Earth - my blog (or vanity exercise...)
Posts: 2150 | From: Zog, obviously! Straight past Alpha Centauri, 2nd planet on the left... | Registered: Dec 2003
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alienfromzog
Ship's Alien
# 5327
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Posted
Bugger, messed up the code:
The greatest irony for me is all the nonsense about UK sovereignty. The real threat to our national sovereignty is TTIP. If the EU signs that then all of Europe (EU members, I mean) has a problem. The biggest supporters of TTIP within the EU? Have a guess, go on...
Now that I want a referendum on!
Let me put it like this:
Should foreign corporations be allowed to use arbitration (Investor-state dispute settlement) outside our legal system to challenge government decisions?
By the way; the answer is NO!
AFZ
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Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts.
[Sen. D.P.Moynihan]
An Alien's View of Earth - my blog (or vanity exercise...)
Posts: 2150 | From: Zog, obviously! Straight past Alpha Centauri, 2nd planet on the left... | Registered: Dec 2003
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
Chapelhead: Like Boris Johnson.
I hope you see the irony in the fact that we're discussing the need for nuance in talking about the EU, and all you've given us so far are one-liners.
quote:
alienfromzog: The real threat to our national sovereignty is TTIP.
Fuck yes.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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Chapelhead
I am
# 21
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Posted
As I wrote earlier, the campaigns on both sides seem to be little more than knocking down straw men and overblown claims of minimal substance. Where are the serous and solidly grounded arguments that deserve more than one-line response?
And there's another four months of this <bangs head on desk>.
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At times like this I find myself thinking, what would the Amish do?
Posts: 9123 | From: Near where I was before. | Registered: Aug 2001
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
Chapelhead: Where are the serous and solidly grounded arguments that deserve more than one-line response?
It was mentioned that Jeremy Corbyn wrote down his arguments in the Guardian. I'd need to find the link again, but maybe it contains serious and solidly grounded arguments.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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Chapelhead
I am
# 21
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
quote:
Chapelhead: Where are the serous and solidly grounded arguments that deserve more than one-line response?
It was mentioned that Jeremy Corbyn wrote down his arguments in the Guardian. I'd need to find the link again, but maybe it contains serious and solidly grounded arguments.
That would be kind of you - I've had a quick look at the Guardian website (I admit it was quick, w*rk calls) and I couldn't see anything that looked like the article mentioned.
One of the other problems with the EU campaign is that there seem to be two tribes with no sensible debate between them - even more separate than in the general election campaign. I know the internet is often not the place for sensible discussion, but even so, apparently half of the internet profoundly hates the EU and all its detestable enormities and the other half is convinced that all eurosceptics are swivel-eyed loons who eat babies.
[ETA - x-posted with Curiosity killed ... will get back later]
[ 23. February 2016, 06:52: Message edited by: Chapelhead ]
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At times like this I find myself thinking, what would the Amish do?
Posts: 9123 | From: Near where I was before. | Registered: Aug 2001
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rolyn
Shipmate
# 16840
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Posted
I shall probably vote to stay in on the basis of germany making a better friend than it does enemy. A united Germany couldn't have been foreseen in 75 , one must hope their increased influence remiains benign.
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Change is the only certainty of existence
Posts: 3206 | From: U.K. | Registered: Dec 2011
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alienfromzog
Ship's Alien
# 5327
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by rolyn:
I shall probably vote to stay in on the basis of germany making a better friend than it does enemy. A united Germany couldn't have been foreseen in 75 , one must hope their increased influence remiains benign.
As stated above I will vote to stay in. However I do not think Germany's influence is entirely benign. In economic terms, much of the blame for the current mess of the Euro zone must be laid at their feet.
I wonder whether a properly engaged UK would have more influence to counteract this. Of course our current economic policy is equally ill-thought out. The only virtue being that Britain is inflicting self-harm whereas Germany is doing well at the expense of others.
AFZ
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Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts.
[Sen. D.P.Moynihan]
An Alien's View of Earth - my blog (or vanity exercise...)
Posts: 2150 | From: Zog, obviously! Straight past Alpha Centauri, 2nd planet on the left... | Registered: Dec 2003
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Matt Black
Shipmate
# 2210
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by alienfromzog:
Bugger, messed up the code:
The greatest irony for me is all the nonsense about UK sovereignty. The real threat to our national sovereignty is TTIP. If the EU signs that then all of Europe (EU members, I mean) has a problem. The biggest supporters of TTIP within the EU? Have a guess, go on...
Now that I want a referendum on!
Let me put it like this:
Should foreign corporations be allowed to use arbitration (Investor-state dispute settlement) outside our legal system to challenge government decisions?
By the way; the answer is NO!
AFZ
This.
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"Protestant and Reformed, according to the Tradition of the ancient Catholic Church" - + John Cosin (1594-1672)
Posts: 14304 | From: Hampshire, UK | Registered: Jan 2002
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by alienfromzog:
I wonder whether a properly engaged UK would have more influence [/QB]
I think that the lack of proper engagement in Europe has been one of the biggest problems the UK has. Those advocating leaving say a lot about sovereignty, and they have a point in that successive UK governments have by and large surrendered our sovereignty within Europe by not exercising it - putting us in a situation similar to Norway and Switzerland, constrained by decisions made in Europe without any say in those decisions, and leaving the EU will simply formalise that arrangement. I'm not sure what's worse - stay in the EU and not exercise our sovereignty, or leave the EU and surrender the sovereignty we currently don't exercise? The best is, of course, to be in the EU, properly engaged in the processes of Europe and thus maximise our sovereignty.
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by rolyn:
I shall probably vote to stay in on the basis of germany making a better friend than it does enemy.
I can't say I see any necessary connection between not being in an organisation like the EU and being enemies.
There are plenty of countries we're on good terms with without ever discussing union to the extent that the EU has joined. We have a heck of a lot of connections with New Zealand for example, but only ever the very faintest suggestions of things like a common currency.
I occasionally wonder what the EU actually achieves for the UK. One of the things that struck me on my European trip last year was border arrangements. It's kind of obvious that on the continent, things are sped up quite a bit by not having to deal with border controls. I caught the train from Amsterdam to Paris, piece of cake at either end and passing through Belgium was barely noticeable.
But I had to go through passport procedures to catch the Eurostar from Paris to London. And I had to go through controls between Edinburgh and Reykjavik... and I didn't have to go through controls to travel from Reykjavik, outside the EU, to Copenhagen inside it. It's perfectly possible to enter into arrangements on particular matters, like Schengen, without having a general principle of union like the EU.
It's funny, it's only in the last couple of years that I've started turning my views against the EU. It started with coming to the view that the Euro is a bad idea, at the height of the Greek crisis. For much of the rest of it, I kind of wonder what the point is.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
I occasionally wonder what the EU actually achieves for the UK.
Loads and loads. Here's my list off the top of my head (and, I know that in some cases others may see what I think of as a good thing differently)
- Freedom of employment across the EU. That allows other European nationals to bring their skills and experience to the UK, supporting UK businesses by billions of pounds per year. And, it allows UK nationals to work elsewhere in Europe, often gaining skills and experience that eventually benefits UK businesses.
- A massive market for UK goods and services, without tariffs, with common standards on labelling, consumer safety etc.
- Assorted human rights legislation, working hours directives etc, with a court to back up and interpret them.
- Regional development funds, industrial restructuring support
- Participation in Europe-wide scientific and technological development and research
- Environmental protection, sustainable protection of trans-national fish stocks (because no one has yet figured out to tell fish not to swim across the boundaries between national waters), farm subsidies that secured European food supplies
Just for starters.
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
I occasionally wonder what the EU actually achieves for the UK.
Loads and loads. Here's my list off the top of my head (and, I know that in some cases others may see what I think of as a good thing differently)
- Freedom of employment across the EU. That allows other European nationals to bring their skills and experience to the UK, supporting UK businesses by billions of pounds per year. And, it allows UK nationals to work elsewhere in Europe, often gaining skills and experience that eventually benefits UK businesses.
- A massive market for UK goods and services, without tariffs, with common standards on labelling, consumer safety etc.
- Assorted human rights legislation, working hours directives etc, with a court to back up and interpret them.
- Regional development funds, industrial restructuring support
- Participation in Europe-wide scientific and technological development and research
- Environmental protection, sustainable protection of trans-national fish stocks (because no one has yet figured out to tell fish not to swim across the boundaries between national waters), farm subsidies that secured European food supplies
Just for starters.
Yeah, but what I'm saying is that you don't actually need the EU to do all of that.
I accept that it can be a little easier and quicker to do many of those things if you have a standing arrangement, but I look at your list and for most of those things I can think of deals we have with other countries that are along similar lines. For example we have free trade agreements with a number of countries to remove tariffs, and several instances of common standards with New Zealand as well as various standards that are truly international, and a lot of development assistance we provide to countries in Oceania. They're just not wrapped up in a single structure with a Parliament.
[ 23. February 2016, 12:31: Message edited by: orfeo ]
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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True, we don't need the EU for many of those things. It could be arranged by a series of bi-lateral agreements and treaties. But, there is an efficiency in having a central organisation to organise harmonisation of (for example) consumer protection rather than have everyone sit down and work out what would be a safe level of mercury in fish, produce a treaty, and then go through it all again with pesticides in cucumbers. A treaty that says "we'll establish a commission to do the technical stuff and then act on their conclusions without needing heads of state to get together and sign a treaty every time" saves a lot of hassle. It's pretty much an essential for a free-trade area IMO.
Likewise, free trade requires free movement of labour. And, when people start moving and noticing that their rights are not universally accepted then a multi-jurisdictional organisation to determine what rights are universal across the free trade zone. Again, a single organisation established by treaty to rule on that seems much more efficient than a series of ad-hoc treaties following consideration of each individual case.
Besides which, I didn't mention that I think one of the biggest things that the EU can give to the UK is increasing political union throughout Europe. But, for some reason, a lot of people seem to think that is a bad thing.
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