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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Purgatory: Reading, decisionism and the Gospel
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ramarius:
@Eutychus. Shame the Ship doesn't allow you to link to your book. I'll see if I can track it down.
When I said "in my book" I didn't mean literally in one I had written. I did contribute a few sketchboard messages to this one.
quote:
Interested in your comment about not seeking a decision. The call to "repent" is at the heart of the Gospel - which is surely a call to a decision.
Not in the same way as quote:
if you would like to receive this free gift, Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior, just say this with me
is. Even urging people to repentance is not the same as decisionism. quote:
Decisionism in Christianity is the belief that a person is saved by coming forward, raising the hand, saying a prayer, believing a doctrine, making a lordship commitment, or some other external, human act, which is taken as the equivalent to, and proof of, the miracle of inward conversion.
The essential difference is in the point at which you feel your job as an evangelist is done.
Alternatively, for a model of "street evangelism", consider Jesus with the woman at the well in John 4, a passage I have taught on many times. Note in particular the absence of Jesus pushing for a decision or even praying a prayer.
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
Eutychus nails it again.
And, @Mousethief - no, of course I didn't mean it seriously. I was being a tool. Or an arsehole.
Facetious. Or perhaps 'faeces-tious' ...
Sorry, my schoolboy scatological humour sometimes gets the better of me.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
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Ramarius
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# 16551
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Posted
@Eutychus. Thanks for the book link.
You didn't really address the question I asked about NT evangelism.
The question was about a call to making a decision. Whilst it's not a part of every example of evangelism in the NT it's clearly prominent. John's preaching, Jesus's call to repentance, Paul's summary of his ministry that God commands all people everywhere to repent - they are all calls to making a decision.
Just referring to the woman of Samaria is highly selective. On t'other side of the equation we have calling the disciples (come follow me!) the rich young ruler, the woman caught in aduktery, Zachhaeus.....
Looks to me like there's scope for more than one approach including a clear call to make a decision.
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ramarius:
You didn't really address the question I asked about NT evangelism.
That's because that's not what your question was about: quote:
what examples of street evangelism have you seen/heard/been part of that constitute some kind of good practice?
In good faith, I answered about my direct, contemporary experience, of street evangelism, which is a contemporary term, in the context of a thread which is all about people going onto the street in Reading in 2016 doing what they call evangelism.
quote:
The question was about a call to making a decision. Whilst it's not a part of every example of evangelism in the NT it's clearly prominent. John's preaching, Jesus's call to repentance, Paul's summary of his ministry that God commands all people everywhere to repent - they are all calls to making a decision.
As far as "making a decision" goes, this is not the language of the NT. I repeat, preaching that includes calling on people to repentance, or to follow Jesus, is not the same as decisionism as I have defined it just a few posts ago.
Decisionism is the charge being laid against what's going on in Reading, first and foremost on the basis of the script being used (part 1, part 2), which couldn't be clearer. Again: quote:
If they do not say "I have Jesus in my heart/I am born again" go with the script..."if you would like to receive this free gift, Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior, just say this with me"
I'm not misreporting or making this up. I'm quoting directly from the thing.
Mark Landreth-Smith of NewFrontiers (or at least that's where I knew him) reports quote:
The contentious bit is the very prescriptive evangelistic script used on the streets
Billy Kennedy of New Community Church Southampton reports quote:
The team doing the training have a very prescriptive model. They have a ‘script’ which leads people through a series of questions to a prayer of commitment to Christ. It feels corny and formulaic
Note this is from people who are supportive of what's going on!
The only outcome envisaged in the script for conversations with declared non-Christians - the only one - is a prayer of conversion. And that is the problem.
It will drive well-meaning Christians to push for people to "pray the prayer" through a false sense of guilt and fear.
It will incite people eager for affirmation and encouragement, not to mention fulfilment of oft-repeated "prophecies" and "visions", to err not on the side of caution but on the side of reporting success.
In this decisionist narrative, there is no place for failure to complete the script, unless it is attributed to some shortcoming (a "lack of faith", perhaps?) in the would-be street evangelist. People challenging the script are likely to be seen as "sapping the atmosphere of faith" and ostracised.
quote:
On t'other side of the equation we have calling the disciples (come follow me!) the rich young ruler, the woman caught in aduktery, Zachhaeus.....
Well, I'm not Jesus. But you make my point nicely. quote:
Looks to me like there's scope for more than one approach including a clear call to make a decision.
A thousand times yes. There is more than one approach to evangelism. There are as many approaches as there are people.
Is this what the leadership in Reading is asserting?
No.
They are claiming, if not a monopoly on the Holy Spirit, at least a privileged outlet, because they have something transferable.
Here's what Yinka Oyekean has to say about it on his Facebook page: quote:
It is transferable to any city or town that wants this. I believe that this can happen in any city in this country or in Europe and because of that Tommie Zito’s ministry and Barnabas Fellowship of Churches are going to partner to facilitate this.
One of the hugely paradoxical things about all this for me, as someone who seeks to enjoy to the full the freedom of the Spirit, is that charismatic churches, churches that lay great store by the work of the Spirit, the wind that "bloweth where it listeth", that first emerged as champions of freedom and spontaneity, have become so enslaved to "transferable" methods and the "ministries" that spawn them.
Who hath bewitched them?
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
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Ricardus
Shipmate
# 8757
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ramarius:
the rich young ruler
Jesus: I've just got to tell you ב things real quick, that God loves you and has an awesome plan for your life. Before I go, I've got to ask you a real quick question. If you were to die tonight, do you know, without a shadow of a doubt, that you would go straight to Heaven?
Rich young man: Er no, that's the question I just asked you.
Jesus: Great! Before my buddies Matt, Mark, Luke, John-the-E and Paul to write down what the Bible will say, I'm gonna say a quick prayer for you ...
[Their name], if you would like to receive Me as your Lord and Saviour, just say this with me:
Jesus // take all my belongings // sell them for me // and give the money to the poor // and then I will follow you
Rich young man: Bugger this for a game of soldiers, I'm going to that Zito bloke, his gospel's much better.
[ 22. August 2016, 21:50: Message edited by: Ricardus ]
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Then the dog ran before, and coming as if he had brought the news, shewed his joy by his fawning and wagging his tail. -- Tobit 11:9 (Douai-Rheims)
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Ramarius
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# 16551
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Posted
@Eutychus. I think we're at crossed purposes here. Let me clarify.
You wrote
As far as "making a decision" goes, this is not the language of the NT. I repeat, preaching that includes calling on people to repentance, or to follow Jesus, is not the same as decisionism as I have defined it just a few posts ago.
Sure I get that.
I was interested in your response to my question about "good practice" in street evangelism. I wasn't clear how you saw a "call to repentance" being expressed in this context. What's the decision we are asking people to make when we call them to repentance and how, in an evangelistic street context, would you frame that challenge?
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Baptist Trainfan
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# 15128
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Posted
This may have been said upthread.
It strikes me that Peter, preaching to Jews on the day of Pentecost and exhorting people to come to a decision about Jesus the Christ, was doing a very different thing to most evangelists today.
Why? Simply because Peter was building on a common Jewish knowledge base about God and the Messiah, and taking people on from there. In other words, he had comprenhensible language and a firm shared foundation. Most evangelists today, however, are using words such as "God", "Jesus", even "faith" and "love" in ways which IMO need a great deal of unpacking before they can be understood in a "Christian" way by most folk. One therefore must ask how valid a quick response in that situation CAN be?
I think it's instructive that when Paul preaches to pagans (e.g. in Athens) he takes a very different approach - although even here there is something of a shared belief in God/gods, which would not be true in Britain today. I'm not saying, "Don't evangelise". I am saying, "It's not easy" and "Don't press for a decision too soon".
[ 23. August 2016, 08:01: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ramarius:
I was interested in your response to my question about "good practice" in street evangelism.
What's with this insistence on street evangelism? It's certainly good for Christians to be getting out and about sharing the Good News, but I don't think there's anything particularly anointed about street evangelism.
quote:
I wasn't clear how you saw a "call to repentance" being expressed in this context. What's the decision we are asking people to make when we call them to repentance and how, in an evangelistic street context, would you frame that challenge?
Re-read your words carefully. You are trying to make a "call to reptentance" equivalent to "asking people to make a decision". I think this is mistaken.
The Greek word traditionally translated by "repentance" is "metanoia"; the suggested translation on this page (which describes "repentance" as "an utter mistranslation"), is a quote:
"change of Mind, a change in the trend and action of the whole inner nature, intellectual, affectional and moral."
This kind of radical shift in perspective isn't something you consciously decide to do, or have forced upon you; it's something you experience and then act upon (or not).
I think that in terms of salvation, only the Spirit can effect such a change. In the context of evangelism, a "call to repentance" might be summarised as presenting people with a challenge to their customary way of thinking and opening up the possibility of things being different - but that can't make them change their perspective; saying the words on the card won't do it.
(In fact at the present time, the idea that a large part of the Good News is the opportunity to see ourselves wholly differently to how we otherwise would is quite strongly reflected in my preaching and evangelism).
I think that any decision follows this change of mind; in fact I guess the problem with decisionism is that it puts the cart before the horse in this respect.
[ 23. August 2016, 08:19: Message edited by: Eutychus ]
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
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Honest Ron Bacardi
Shipmate
# 38
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Posted
Those last two posts - by Baptist Trainfan & Eutychus - have whacked the nail firmly on the head.
I've kept silence while reading this thread, largely because I felt that the strengths and weaknesses of street evangelism are far better discussed by those within the tradition of evangelicalism who either advocate it or have tried it and want to advise on what not to do.
But whatever your background, the call is to a change of heart, an amendment of life, a leaning away from an old way of doing things towards a new life. That was and is the call to metanoia. It has nothing to do with penitence (the root of repentance), though of course that may follow with understanding.
And while we are at it, the pie in the sky stuff is a travesty of what the gospels reveal, and indeed what the rich young man was asking about. Which was how he might inherit eternal life, not "go to heaven when you die", which would surely have sounded like a mixed metaphor to him.
People take considerable effort to avoid engagement by and phone calls from double glazing salesmen and timeshare sellers. Using the same intellectual doorstepping tactics is guaranteed to switch off many, many people. It absolutely ruined both my daughters' view of Christianity. One of them has got over it I'm pleased to say, but the memory lingers.
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Anglo-Cthulhic
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Truman White
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# 17290
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Posted
The chat around decisionism reminds me of Dallas Wiilard's stuff on bar code Christianity. I'm OK will calling people to make a decision to follow Christ, as long as that's the decision. It's "job's just started" not "job done."
If all we were getting out of Reading was a stack of cards I'd be as leery about all this as anyone else. Sounds like there's more going on mind. There's obviously plenty of people with no Christian commitment happy to stop and chat. I can think of plenty of places that doesn't happen. Christians in their hundreds emboldened to share their faith - better than the alternative. I've heard that more people in Reading are starting to visit churches - like to see where that goes.
There's plenty of scrutiny of what folks are up to in Reading by people closer to the action that we are. I'm looking for what the church leaders say in a few months when asked "If you were doing this again from scratch what would you do different?"
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Truman White:
If all we were getting out of Reading was a stack of cards I'd be as leery about all this as anyone else. Sounds like there's more going on mind.
I'm not sure if this is true or not. Can anyone find any recent news? My new hunch is that Reading has become more in the spotlight since the pastor in question spoke at New Wine... quote:
There's obviously plenty of people with no Christian commitment happy to stop and chat. I can think of plenty of places that doesn't happen.
That's not because of a shortage of people willing to chat. It's more because Christians don't actually believe people are interested in their faith, and have often been turned off attempting to share it by being convinced that the only way of sharing it is to go out there with a decisionist agenda. quote:
Christians in their hundreds emboldened to share their faith - better than the alternative.
Not if the results aren't all they are being hyped up to be. The danger is that they will do it for as long as the weather's nice and they are in the spotlight, and then sink into fatigue and disillusionment until the Next Move of God™ comes around.
What has been the meaningful legacy of Cwmbran or the Lakeland Revival? Far, far out of proportion to the promises I would venture, and not in a good way.
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
Can anyone find any recent news?
A bit of poking around on Facebook indicates that the weekly evangelism meetings have ceased for two weeks and will resume on a monthly basis this weekend. The movement has now got its own brand, "The Turning", and a tour of this product is being arranged to other cities.
Yinka Oyekan spoke about Reading at the Leaders Advance conference in Harrogate at the beginning of the month. This event is a Bethel product, and the headline speaker at that event was Bill Johnson.
There are the usual promises of something hitherto unseen and special, not to be missed, and fantastic numbers ("100 million souls for Europe")
There are ten minutes of video of Oyekan at the Bethel conference here ("he's going to pray an impartation over us - if you want that. You want that?")
There is much that could be said about it, I'll simply say that in his conclusion, he says God has revealed to him that "Theresa means harvester*". I think the implication one is supposed to draw is something to do with the new UK Prime Minister.
I'm afraid this is looking more like Lakeland the closer I look. Cross-breeding the extreme decisionism with the "realised eschatology/presence of God" theology of Bethel is truly scary.
==
*It does, in Greek, apparently.
[ 23. August 2016, 10:17: Message edited by: Eutychus ]
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
I'm afraid this is looking more like Lakeland the closer I look.
Not this Lakeland, clearly - although even this beloved company claims that it can change your life, albeit slightly!
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Gamaliel
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# 812
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Posted
@Truman White, it's only 'job started' if people actually understand what it is they are supposed to be starting on.
My brother has a friend who was pressed to make some kind of 'decision' at a Pentecostal service.
The Penties were delighted and went around rejoicing that this person had been 'saved'.
When my brother engaged the person in conversation about it he quickly found that they had no idea what was supposed to have happened/been achieved as a result of 'praying the prayer.'
I'm sorry, Eutychus and Baptist Trainfan have continued to hit the nail on the head over and over again on this one.
Special pleading or 'at least Christians are out on the streets sharing their faith' stuff does not in any way alleviate the concerns that many of us have with this approach - particularly when it seems to be linked with Bethel-ish stuff.
This may sound harsh or extreme but I don't think we can distance ourselves enough from the likes of Bethel and Bill Johnson.
I really wish that the New Wine types and people involved with what was New Frontiers and so on would wake up to how toxic that stuff actually is.
I can't say it strongly enough. It is toxic.
Avoid it. Shun it. Expose it for what it is. It is wrong. Wrong. Wrong.
I plead with my evangelical charismatic brothers and sisters in the bowels of Christ to reconsider.
It's not just individuals who need that radical metanoia. Movements do too. And the charismatic evangelical movement needs a metanoia too if it isn't going to crash and burn over some of these dodgy emphases.
Honestly. I plead with you. I abjure you.
There is death in the pot.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
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Ricardus
Shipmate
# 8757
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Honest Ron Bacardi:
People take considerable effort to avoid engagement by and phone calls from double glazing salesmen and timeshare sellers. Using the same intellectual doorstepping tactics is guaranteed to switch off many, many people.
Indeed.
My recollection of the book of Acts is that the disciples preached in synagogues - where you would expect to be preached to - and in (literal) forums, where there does seem to have been an expected tradition of public debate. (Acts 17:21 - 'Now all the Athenians and the foreigners living there would spend their time in nothing but telling or hearing something new.') I don't think there is any record of the disciples bugging random passers-by.
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Then the dog ran before, and coming as if he had brought the news, shewed his joy by his fawning and wagging his tail. -- Tobit 11:9 (Douai-Rheims)
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Ricardus
Shipmate
# 8757
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
There is much that could be said about it, I'll simply say that in his conclusion, he says God has revealed to him that "Theresa means harvester*". I think the implication one is supposed to draw is something to do with the new UK Prime Minister.
Apparently her favourite hymn is 'Therefore we before him bending/ this great sacrament revere'.
I look forward to a mass revival of Evensong and Benediction! ![[Yipee]](graemlins/spin.gif)
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Then the dog ran before, and coming as if he had brought the news, shewed his joy by his fawning and wagging his tail. -- Tobit 11:9 (Douai-Rheims)
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
I would hope that when the various church leaders evaluate what's been going on in a few month's time, Truman White, they'd conclude:
'If we were doing this again from scratch we wouldn't rely on facile decisionism and forcing-the-issue techniques but look to engage with people in a more meaningful and authentic way - a way in which we could create a forum where genuine conversations and genuine interaction about the Gospel would take place.'
The problem with revivalism is that it doesn't learn to do things differently - it simply ramps up the same old, same old and presses on regardless of the collateral damage.
Of course, other traditions within Christianity stick to the same things and to the same old, same old as they have always done - but as Eutychus has observed, the concern with revivalism is that it claims to be spontaneous and Spirit-led but so often hedges things around with particular techniques, particular personalities and particular 'centres'.
Of course, there have always been centres of influence - be it Cluny, be it the monastery of Optino in Russia, be it Azusa Street ...
And yes, people will build conferences and ministries around these things and make money out of them. It's always been that way.
But what is doubly dangerous in instances like this one in Reading is the degree of hype and expectation that gets built up around it all.
I often refer to the famous quote from Watchman Nee after a period of 'outpouring' in Shanghai in the 1930s. At the end of it he wrote that not a great deal had been gained but an awful lot had been lost.
What I hope would happen with the ministers and church leaders in Reading after all the froth and fuss has died down is that they would re-evaluate the Gospel they preach and present in the cold light of day and adjust their approach accordingly.
In other words, I'd hope they'd change their theology.
Actually, it might be an idea if they actually acquired some in the first place ...
![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
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Baptist Trainfan
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# 15128
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
@Truman White, it's only 'job started' if people actually understand what it is they are supposed to be starting on.
My brother has a friend who was pressed to make some kind of 'decision' at a Pentecostal service.
The Penties were delighted and went around rejoicing that this person had been 'saved'.
When my brother engaged the person in conversation about it he quickly found that they had no idea what was supposed to have happened/been achieved as a result of 'praying the prayer.'
"The Doctor" (Martyn Lloyd-Jones of Westminster Chapel) in his book "Preaching and preachers" tells of someone who came to him in some distress (probably back in the 1950s when Christian understanding among the general population was much greater than it is today). I can't recall the details, but this man had been to an evangelistic rally the week before where the preacher had made a heartfelt appeal to make a decision now so as not to "miss the boat". He hadn't made that response and was now in mortal fear that he had, indeed, missed that particular sailing. Problem was, he had no idea what the evangelist had really been calling for, it simply had been assumed that "everyone knew".
(As an aside, Lloyd-Jones - a good Calvinist - was dead against "altar calls" as he felt that they were too emotionalistic and that God's Spirit would work in someone's heart without them. I don't know how he got round Paul's comment about "by all means persuading some". R.T. Kendall, a later minister at the Chapel, caused a bit of a rumpus when he decided to introduce appeals and even wrote a book defending the practice).
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Baptist Trainfan
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# 15128
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
In other words, I'd hope they'd change their theology.
Actually, it might be an idea if they actually acquired some in the first place ...
Tom Smail, meeting with other Scottish church leaders in the heady days of charismatic renewal in the late 1950s and wanting to throw his academic background out of the window, recounted how he was rebuked by a Pentecostal Pastor who told him that the Renewal would desperately need his "good theology".
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Ramarius
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# 16551
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Posted
@Eutychus. You wrote:
Re-read your words carefully. You are trying to make a "call to repentance" equivalent to "asking people to make a decision". I think this is mistaken. The Greek word traditionally translated by "repentance" is "metanoia"; the suggested translation on this page (which describes "repentance" as "an utter mistranslation"), is a quote: "change of Mind, a change in the trend and action of the whole inner nature, intellectual, affectional and moral." This kind of radical shift in perspective isn't something you consciously decide to do, or have forced upon you; it's something you experience and then act upon (or not).
I don't see how you get away from a call to repentance being a call to make a decision. A quick look at NT tense and context makes that clear. Jesus's first use of repentance - metanoiete - is in the imperative - repent ye! It's a call to do something, a call to action. Jesus was constantly calling people to action - follow me, go and sin no more, give to the poor, come down from your tree, pick up your mat... Acts 17:30 "...God commands all men everywhere to repent."
The issue with preaching the Gospel isn't that people are being asked to make a decision - that's self-evident - but what decision people are being asked to make. And (and this the key issue for me with decision cards and "saying the prayer") what they think they are doing when they make that decision.
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
Well, yes ...
If it's 'Come down the front' or 'Raise your hand' or 'Pray this prayer after me' then that's what you are going to get.
If it's 'repent and be baptised' then that ups the ante somewhat.
Ultimately, though, it seems to me that the 'decision' that Christ was calling for was, 'Come, follow me ...' - which has diddly-squat to do with revivalistic rallies or street evangelism but everything to do with a re-orientation of life - however that is expressed - whether in engaging in church services of whatever kind or - as in the case of Mother Maria of Paris going out and feeding the hungry, clothing the naked and, ultimately, dying in a Nazi concentration camp for assisting Jews to escape the Holocaust ...
In the light of that - and sundry other examples across all Christian confessions and traditions - the kind of street evangelism and decisionism we're seeing in Reading seems absurdly trite and reductionist.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ramarius:
I don't see how you get away from a call to repentance being a call to make a decision. A quick look at NT tense and context makes that clear. Jesus's first use of repentance - metanoiete - is in the imperative - repent ye! It's a call to do something
If my translation of metanoia is right, the imperative means, in the words of Bob Dylan, "change your way of thinking". There is a big leap from that to decisionism as defined above and as rolled out in Reading.
quote:
Jesus was constantly calling people to action - follow me, go and sin no more, give to the poor, come down from your tree, pick up your mat...
But we are not Jesus*. In those instances he is not so much inviting people to make a decision as giving orders. Are you seriously saying we should be going round issuing orders to people? I know some healing and deliverance proponents attempt this, and the results are less than spectacular.
quote:
The issue with preaching the Gospel isn't that people are being asked to make a decision - that's self-evident - but what decision people are being asked to make. And (and this the key issue for me with decision cards and "saying the prayer") what they think they are doing when they make that decision.
There is no doubt at all in view of the script being used in The Turning™ that people are being asked to "receive Jesus as their Lord and Saviour". This is a "prayer of conversion".
As others have pointed, there is a big question as to whether an average inhabitant of Reading is really in a position to understand what that means.
So why use a formula couched in those terms?
Partly, perhaps, out of an actual decisionist theology that thinks saying the magic words actually produces the desired effect. (Such a belief is, essentially, witchcraft).
Secondly, I would suggest, to allow the leaders to talk in terms of "souls saved", add suitably big numbers (see the evidence from Zito's website referenced above), and make noises about revival.
(This Turning Tour would hardly get off the ground if it was to be branded as "encouraging church members to go out and have conversations with people". It works much better as "ushering in the harvest in the UK" and for that you need some claim of conversions).
They are quick to add "and rededications" half under their breath, but nobody pays attention to that in the hype or the headlines - after all, God has promised revival, the prophets said so and the new PM's name means "Harvester" so it must be true!
The fact is though, that the method used makes no provision for rededications.
This is where cognitive dissonance sets in, and this is what makes all this dishonest and dangerous. Fans are being asked to concede that most of the prayers are rededications AND simultaneously believe, despite the actual evidence, that large numbers of new converts are being made, with lots more on the way.
At this point the whole thing starts to be out of touch with reality, and the weaving of the emperor's new clothes can begin in earnest.
Until next time round.
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*This may seem self-evident, but as I understand it part of Bethel's doctrine is that the Church is the physical body of Christ, expected to perform exactly the same actions as he did in his earthly ministry; once it has got sufficiently good at this by the empowering of the Spirit, Jesus the "Head" of the body will return to top it off, as it were.
[ 23. August 2016, 12:02: Message edited by: Eutychus ]
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
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Gamaliel
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# 812
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Posted
Again, Eutychus. Nail. Head. Hit it.
My word, man, if people were queueing up to hear what you have to say you could be a millionaire.
![[Biased]](wink.gif)
Forget The Turning Tour, let's have a 'Hit The Nail On The Head' Tour or a 'Let's Call a Spade a Spade' Tour or a 'I call Bullshit' Tour ...
Let's roll it out and listen to the cash-tills chime!
Only, it's not what contemporary evangelicalism's itching ears want to hear.
I say Ichabod.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
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Ramarius
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@Eutychus. Happy to focus on Paul if that's easier, consider Acts 26:20.
" First to those in Damascus, then to those in Jerusalem and in all Judea, and then to the Gentiles, I preached that they should repent and turn to God and demonstrate their repentance by their deeds." Sounds like two decisions there. And back to the previous verse from Acts 17 "God commands all men everywhere to repent." It's the same call to action as Jesus. No surprise there.
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Gamaliel
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@Baptist Trainfan, I don't always agree with the good 'Doctor' but I think his diagnosis was spot-on that time.
As far as altar-calls and so on go, I have less difficulty with the old-time Salvation Army 'penitent form' because at least it says what it is on the tin - it is a 'penitent' form. You are supposed to be penitent there.
None of this 'good conversations', 're-commitments' or 'pray this prayer after me' crap.
There's a lot of issues on which I'd part company with the SA, but not on that one. Yes, I know, as has been pointed out, penitence is just one part of the whole thing ... of course - but at least they didn't abandon it in favour of some erstatz decisionism.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
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Gamaliel
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# 812
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No, Ramarius - it's not two decisions, it's a continuation - the repentance and deeds go together - they are part of a continuum. Faith without works is dead.
Please, spare us the reductionism.
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Praise the Lord for He is kind.
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Honest Ron Bacardi
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# 38
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Ramarius - to further this discussion, maybe it would be helpful if you could outline your understanding of what "repentance" actually means, otherwise there's a danger of talking at cross-purposes here.
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ramarius:
I preached that they should repent and turn to God and demonstrate their repentance by their deeds."
![[brick wall]](graemlins/brick_wall.gif) That they "should do" those things, yes. An invitation to do something, even an insistent invitation, is not the same as training people to use a script in which the only possible outcome if their interlocutor is not already a Christian is to have them immediately pray a prayer with you, then and there, cast as "a decision for Christ".
And this is aside from any issue of the context, as Baptist Trainfan helpfully points out above.
I think one of the mistakes the New Churches often make is to think the contemporary church should be carrying on exactly where Acts left off (indeed, as reflected in one of my Bethelite friends' recent facebook pictures: "Acts 29: the story continues!" handwritten at the end of the book in question in the Bible) - and that it's a blueprint of exactly how things should be done now.
I understand the sentiment, but to simply ignore 2,000 years of intervening history and Church history is sheer hubris.
quote:
And back to the previous verse from Acts 17 "God commands all men everywhere to repent."
Not again ![[Disappointed]](graemlins/disappointed.gif)
Can you really fail to see that the subject in this sentence is God, not "I"?
We're not supposed to be commanding anything, or ordering anybody about. Can't you see how loathsome, arrogant, entitled ("we're the sons and daughters of the King bringing Heaven down to Earth!") and unteachable such an attitude is?
Now let's stop dodging the OP and get back to Reading, and you off the fence. Let me ask you the same question I asked SvitlanaV2 in the other thread:
I'm increasingly unhappy with the process/prayer outlined in the crib. Is it even defensible? Would you defend it?
[ 23. August 2016, 13:33: Message edited by: Eutychus ]
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
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Ramarius
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Honest Ron Bacardi:
Ramarius - to further this discussion, maybe it would be helpful if you could outline your understanding of what "repentance" actually means, otherwise there's a danger of talking at cross-purposes here.
Sure. In a nutshell it's a change of mind leading to a change in behaviour. In practical terms and a Christian context that a radical re-orientation of our lives around the in-breaking Kingdom. The Gospel in a nut shell is that Jesus is now Lord, and we need to start living our lives following his lead, joining in his great project to redeem our broken world.
Apart from the imperative to repent, Jesus uses powerful images to describe what this means - dying to self, taking up the cross, "hating" father and mother, persevering to bring forth fruit.
All the decisions we make in now are now made in orientation to that new situation. Hence the ongoing working of repentance - putting to death what belongs to the old nature, seeking first the kingdom, forgiving our enemies, being kind and patient with each other, and sharing the good news of the kingdom.
The New Testament constantly places choices in front of us. Do we follow the broad way or the narrow way? Do we accept Christ or reject him? Do we follow the fallen nature or put it to death? Do we let the sun go down whilst we are still angry or make it a priority to deal with it.
Having come to Christ, in any situation we find ourselves we have to decide what to do and whom to follow.
[ 23. August 2016, 13:52: Message edited by: Ramarius ]
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ramarius:
In a nutshell [repentance is] a change of mind leading to a change in behaviour.
I can't see the word "decision" featuring anywhere in your post until after that has occurred (emphasis mine): quote:
All the decisions we make in now are now made in orientation to that new situation.
quote:
Originally posted by Ramarius, emphasis mine:
Having come to Christ, in any situation we find ourselves we have to decide what to do and whom to follow.
I can't see that this is any different from what I said here: quote:
I think that any decision follows this change of mind
From which I concluded quote:
I guess the problem with decisionism is that it puts the cart before the horse in this respect
Back to my question again. Do you seriously believe that a person on the receiving end of the script being used in Reading "praying the prayer" corresponds to "coming to Christ"? If so, why?
[ 23. August 2016, 14:04: Message edited by: Eutychus ]
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
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Ramarius
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@Eutychus. You asked:
I'm increasingly unhappy with the process/prayer outlined in the crib. Is it even defensible? Would you defend it?
Well since you asked.... My first reaction was the same as yours. I agree entirely with TW's comments on barcode Christianity, particularly having seen people being led to "say a prayer" when they clearly had no idea who this Jesus was they were supposed to be talking to.
What gave me pause (as I said upthread) is that people I know who have been to Reading tell me that new people are turning up to churches enquriring about Christianity. That's what I want to know about. I can't find out about that on the internet, so will have to investigate that in other ways and at a later date.
Would I use the crib? No. Might I use something like it on the basis of the experience of Reading. Maybe - but I would need to know more about what's been going on first.
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Ramarius
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# 16551
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
quote:
Originally posted by Ramarius:
I preached that they should repent and turn to God and demonstrate their repentance by their deeds."
That they "should do" those things, yes. An invitation to do something, even an insistent invitation, is not the same as training people to use a script in which the only possible outcome if their interlocutor is not already a Christian is to have them immediately pray a prayer with you, then and there, cast as "a decision for Christ".
And I've never said it was. I've kept putting the question to you about how to put the challenge - the imperative - of the need to respond to Christ, and you continue to sidestep it by referring back to the specific practice at Reading. The Gospel is a call to action - go leave one life and start another, to follow Christ, to demonstrate that new direction by a change of behaviour. All that requires making decisions. I don't see how you can avoid that, and we're just going round in circles.
Which is a shame since there's something worthwhile to explore here.
But I'm out of time. Maybe return to this in the New Year and see what wheat has fallen in Reading and what chaff is heading for the fire.
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
[x-post]
quote:
Originally posted by Ramarius:
What gave me pause (as I said upthread) is that people I know who have been to Reading tell me that new people are turning up to churches enquriring about Christianity.
But this happens everywhere all the time on a regular basis, people just don't call it an Outpouring™!!1!1!11!!!!
I stood outside our church venue for literally five minutes last Tuesday; one passerby approached me and started a conversation and another lady and her daughter came over to look at our window display. I wasn't even trying to evangelise; I was waiting for someone else entirely who stood me up. We have had new visitors on Sunday mornings all the way through the dead month of August.
I honestly can't believe you're challenged or excited by Reading because an indeterminate number of enquirers are turning up at churches. I find it much more likely that you are in danger of being lured by the hype.
The hype is all about a special, particular outpouring of the Holy Spirit in fulfilment of prophecy and visions with the potential to reach hundreds of thousands across the UK and 100 million across Europe... if only people will flock to the source of the anointing and receive this impartation, which is "transferable", presumably more so if you attend a The Turning™ event, coming soon to your city!
(Again, I am not making any of this up. You can read all of this from the sources).
I've posted this from The Gravedigger File before; it's still true.
You don't need to go to Reading, or Redding. You don't need special impartation. You don't need the charismatical-monetaro complex. The anointing dwells in you. It's the New Convenant promise! You need to go out and talk to people.
[ 23. August 2016, 14:20: Message edited by: Eutychus ]
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ramarius:
I've kept putting the question to you about how to put the challenge - the imperative - of the need to respond to Christ
That's not what this thread is about, but for instance, on occasion I invite people to read the gospels and look at the person, work, and words of Jesus, and suggest that if they are serious about finding out whether God is real or not, ask him to show himself to be real to them as they read. I sometimes add to that a warning that this may result in them having to make some decisions. quote:
The Gospel is a call to action - go leave one life and start another, to follow Christ, to demonstrate that new direction by a change of behaviour. All that requires making decisions.
Precisely. It's the Gospel that is the power of God for salvation unto all men. Not my persuasiveness. I'm fully confident that leaving people alone with the Gospel will enable them, with God's help, to make the right decisions and grow to maturity in Christ, in a way that's right for them and not just according to my preconceptions.
"God made it grow" is my personal miracle formula. quote:
Maybe return to this in the New Year and see what wheat has fallen in Reading and what chaff is heading for the fire.
Noted.
[ 23. August 2016, 14:33: Message edited by: Eutychus ]
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
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