Posted                       

quote:

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Originally posted by opaWim:
If it sounds too good to be true, it usually is.

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Posted                       

quote:

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Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
If it sounds too good to be true - it is always too good to be true.

If it doesn't sound too good to be true, treat it with scepticism.

The big question for me is this: "Why do we need these stories of (so called) celebrity conversions?"

Isn't God working in the lives of people around you in your church enough?

It all demonstrates that the church has generally brought into the cult of celebrity and marketing. Believing and living out the gospel is enough and perfectly adequate.

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Posted                       

quote:

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Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:

quote:

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Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
If it sounds too good to be true - it is always too good to be true.

If it doesn't sound too good to be true, treat it with scepticism.

The big question for me is this: "Why do we need these stories of (so called) celebrity conversions?"

Isn't God working in the lives of people around you in your church enough?

It all demonstrates that the church has generally brought into the cult of celebrity and marketing. Believing and living out the gospel is enough and perfectly adequate.

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I couldn't agree more. Just one tiny caveat in the above: I would use the word "caution" instead of "scepticism". The first suggests that one is assessing whether to believe the stories, the second that one has already assumed a default position of not believing them.

I am always extremely wary - to the extent of being a wet blanket! - when someone comes and excitedly tells me a story of a great thing that God is alleged to have done. They expect me to say, "Praise the Lord", but I am unlikely to do so.

The danger of celebrity - and it happened in the days of Martyn Lloyd-Jones, Spurgeon and Wesley, I'm sure - is that people lose their critical faculties and simply lap up the words of "the Lord's anointed" as if it is all Gospel truth.

I am extremely sceptical as soon as money is involved.

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Posted                       

quote:

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Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
I am perhaps on the rebellious end of the conevo/ charismatic constituency.

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And long may you remain there!

Posted                          

quote:

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Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:

quote:

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Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
If it sounds too good to be true - it is always too good to be true.

If it doesn't sound too good to be true, treat it with scepticism.

The big question for me is this: "Why do we need these stories of (so called) celebrity conversions?"

Isn't God working in the lives of people around you in your church enough?

It all demonstrates that the church has generally brought into the cult of celebrity and marketing. Believing and living out the gospel is enough and perfectly adequate.

---

I couldn't agree more. Just one tiny caveat in the above: I would use the word "caution" instead of "scepticism". The first suggests that one is assessing whether to believe the stories, the second that one has already assumed a default position of not believing them.

I am always extremely wary - to the extent of being a wet blanket! - when someone comes and excitedly tells me a story of a great thing that God is alleged to have done. They expect me to say, "Praise the Lord", but I am unlikely to do so.

The danger of celebrity - and it happened in the days of Martyn Lloyd-Jones, Spurgeon and Wesley, I'm sure - is that people lose their critical faculties and simply lap up the words of "the Lord's anointed" as if it is all Gospel truth.

I am extremely sceptical as soon as money is involved.

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Originally posted by guthrum:
SvitlanaV2, Martin. My experience was in what is pretty much a middle of the road, rural,group of Anglican churches with very much sub 60 congregations. Interesting in the context of Martin's comments that the leadership at the time were very supportive of Sookhdo's Barnabas and the senior member of the team was trying (with little success) to nudge people in a Charismatic direction.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Martin60:

SvitlanaV2 said that the church is a free association, one can take it or leave it? How can one take or leave the body of Christ? How can we forsake her as we see the day approaching? I used to take that so seriously, for decades, right up to now.

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Posted                       

quote:

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Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
I got the impression from what you said earlier that the situation could be a 'problem', or at least a challenge, for people who share the same kind of church background as yourself. But if you've overcome those challenges, that's great.

Maybe at some point you could set up a ministry at the Baptist-Methodist LEP. ISTM that you'd ideally be part of something in a church that's totally supportive, and on the same page as you. This would also be a good witness to the dispossessed people you're working with. (Not necessarily an evangelistic witness, but a sign of unity.)

Anyway, I hope it all works out for the best. You obviously have a strong awareness of your calling, and that's a blessing, certainly not a 'problem'. I wish mine were half as strong!

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Posted                       

quote:

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Originally posted by Martin60:

quote:

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Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
I got the impression from what you said earlier that the situation could be a 'problem', or at least a challenge, for people who share the same kind of church background as yourself. But if you've overcome those challenges, that's great.

Maybe at some point you could set up a ministry at the Baptist-Methodist LEP. ISTM that you'd ideally be part of something in a church that's totally supportive, and on the same page as you. This would also be a good witness to the dispossessed people you're working with. (Not necessarily an evangelistic witness, but a sign of unity.)

Anyway, I hope it all works out for the best. You obviously have a strong awareness of your calling, and that's a blessing, certainly not a 'problem'. I wish mine were half as strong!

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There is NO church for 125 miles that is on the same page as me.

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Posted                       

quote:

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Originally posted by Martin60:
Then I recommend Rob Bell and Pete Rollins Tubbs, on tour at the moment, at Steve Chalke's Oasis this weekend. Sold out, although I have two tickets and can't go!

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Posted                       

quote:

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Originally posted by Martin60:
Then I recommend Rob Bell and Pete Rollins Tubbs, on tour at the moment, at Steve Chalke's Oasis this weekend. Sold out, although I have two tickets and can't go!

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Sold out? That celebrity train is going quite well then.

Progressive/emergent leaders have their fans and acolytes just like every other 'celebrity' person in evangelical Christendom does. No difference. Same phenomenon. Emergent sub-culture is as much an echo chamber as anything in evangelical sub-culture. I know that Bell is famous, having appeared on Oprah, but who outside the Christian bubble has HEARD of these people?

You should check out the Stuff Christian Culture Likes site, particularly on Facebook. They target conservative Christian culture - particularly in the US - but they don't spare the white, middle-class males who head up the 'emergent' stuff either.

I prefer simplicity these days: people who aren't famous, who don't have a platform and who don't care about not having a platform.

--------------------
"I fear that to me Siamese cats belong to the fauna of Mordor." J.R.R. Tolkien

Posted                       

quote:

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Originally posted by Laurelin:

You should check out the Stuff Christian Culture Likes site, particularly on Facebook. They target conservative Christian culture - particularly in the US - but they don't spare the white, middle-class males who head up the 'emergent' stuff either.

I prefer simplicity these days: people who aren't famous, who don't have a platform and who don't care about not having a platform.

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Posted                         

quote:

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Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
One interesting question is, why do the leaders of these movements have to be 'white, middle-class males'? Where are all the women who want to be church leaders?

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Posted                       

quote:

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Originally posted by Sipech:

quote:

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Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
One interesting question is, why do the leaders of these movements have to be 'white, middle-class males'? Where are all the women who want to be church leaders?

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Joyce Meyer?

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Posted                       

quote:

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Originally posted by Sipech:
Joyce Meyer?

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Joyce Meyer is emergent?

quote:

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Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
One interesting question is, why do the leaders of these movements have to be 'white, middle-class males'? Where are all the women who want to be church leaders? Where are the contemporary female post-evangelical 'emergents' who could be founding their own congregations and writing influential books? You don't need permission to do these things, and modern women have more advantages than their great-grandmothers.

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Natalie Collins is an upcoming voice. She's on Twitter as godloveswomen. She's a survivor of domestic abuse, a very fiery feminist (often hilariously so), campaigns fiercely against abuse (including abuse in the church) and a very good preacher. She was on Radio 4's Sunday morning service a few weeks ago, preached on Hagar. Excellent stuff.

She doesn't identify as emergent, but that's to her credit, IMO, because she doesn't seem interested in trendy labels.

quote:

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Originally posted by mark_in_manchester:
Nadia Boltz-doodah seems to be making an international-ministry-thing out of all that stuff. I like her, but...she has a platform alright.

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Posted                       

quote:

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Originally posted by mdijon:
It seems unlikely, Martin, that there are no liberal Christians who care enough to match your standards and that there are no evangelical Christians who are broad-minded enough to match your standards.

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Posted                       

quote:

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Originally posted by Laurelin:
Natalie Collins is an upcoming voice. She's on Twitter as godloveswomen. She's a survivor of domestic abuse, a very fiery feminist (often hilariously so), campaigns fiercely against abuse (including abuse in the church) and a very good preacher. She was on Radio 4's Sunday morning service a few weeks ago, preached on Hagar. Excellent stuff.

She doesn't identify as emergent, but that's to her credit, IMO, because she doesn't seem interested in trendy labels.

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Posted                       

quote:

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Originally posted by Martin60:

quote:

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Originally posted by mdijon:
It seems unlikely, Martin, that there are no liberal Christians who care enough to match your standards and that there are no evangelical Christians who are broad-minded enough to match your standards.

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mdijon, in 11 years in 5 congregations, just 2 guys, with whom it is impossible to fellowship. Our home group at our most recent church were lovely and we miss them. The men's group too. Blokes. I miss them very much. But no one one could have a conversation with like here. All trapped in magical thinking. Open to liberal ideas to one degree or another, but at the end of the day ALL, without exception, dependent on the promise of miracles. On magic. Invoking it and seeing it everywhere.

The megachurch I never left is much, MUCH worse, from the top down. That's where the rot starts, as in fish.

Met a perfect post-Baptist Baptist minister last year and his wife, in Cenarth. Like Oasis, it's a long way to go.

I speak in respect of want: for I have learned to aspire to learn, in whatsoever state I am, therewith to be content.

So if you know anywhere where it's possible to have a conversation within a half hour walk from the middle of Leicester, of 300,000 people, let me know mate.

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Posted                       

quote:

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Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:

quote:

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Originally posted by Laurelin:
Natalie Collins is an upcoming voice. She's on Twitter as godloveswomen. She's a survivor of domestic abuse, a very fiery feminist (often hilariously so), campaigns fiercely against abuse (including abuse in the church) and a very good preacher. She was on Radio 4's Sunday morning service a few weeks ago, preached on Hagar. Excellent stuff.

She doesn't identify as emergent, but that's to her credit, IMO, because she doesn't seem interested in trendy labels.

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Sounds interesting.

I think it's impossible to avoid labels, though. 'Fiery feminist' is definitely a label. It suggests that she's at the more liberal end of things, even if she attends a more or less evangelical church - simply because a lot of this lay-led church stuff is coming out of the evangelical churches these days.

If 'emergent' is an undesirable term that's just because it's less well known than 'evangelical', even though evangelical itself means all things to all men. 'Liberal' doesn't seem to have much grass-roots traction at all, although it's a meaningful term to the clergy and to academics.

All other church identities (and even post-church thinking) seem to measure themselves against evangelicalism these days, which is a surprising turn of events. It's probably a sign of secularisation.

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Posted                       

quote:

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Originally posted by Gamaliel:
That doesn't surprise me, EM but would you have had them do?

I'm not sure any churches I know are geared up to deal with major social upheavals, at least not alone. You need a multi-agency approach to social upheavals. Any one individual church - or any other organisation for that matter - can't tackle a wider issue of that kind on their own.

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Posted                      

quote:

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Mind you they are not alone. Other churches in the town who profess a commitment to social justice - and who are quick enough to complain about international and national issues - are strangely silent when it comes to their own back yards. The Quakers seem to be the worst of the lot.

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Posted                       

quote:

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Originally posted by Stetson:
Exclamation Mark wrote:

quote:

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Mind you they are not alone. Other churches in the town who profess a commitment to social justice - and who are quick enough to complain about international and national issues - are strangely silent when it comes to their own back yards. The Quakers seem to be the worst of the lot.

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Can you provide some examples of this Quaker hypocrisy? Not that I'm doubting you, just curious.

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Posted                       

quote:

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Originally posted by Gamaliel:
The problem is that some of the whackier stuff comes in from sources which they respect or are prepared to give the benefit of the doubt.

I'm not advocating church leaders becoming paranoid or going around stomping on everything that comes from outside or which bubbles up within their own setting - but a healthy dose of scepticism and common sense doesn't go amiss.

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Posted                       

quote:

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Originally posted by Gamaliel:
I boarded this thread before I spotted Baptist Trainfan's earlier appeal for me to do so.

I'm puzzled as to the grounds on which this appeal was made. My oddity?

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Posted                       

quote:

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Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
It doesn't matter whether you are con evo, fundamentalist, pentecostalist, liberal, angle catholic - every tribe has its celebrity shamen.

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Posted                       

quote:

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Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
Why do I need to go to Lakeland/Reading/Cwmbran? God is working in the lives of ordinary people in the town around me - I don't need a "celebrity" to endorse the love I see going on from churches in my town.

I'll repeat what I said earlier - much of the church is as guilty as the outside world is in following "celebrities" It doesn't matter whether you are con evo, fundamentalist, pentecostalist, liberal, angle catholic - every tribe has its celebrity shamen.

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Posted                       

quote:

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Originally posted by Martin60:
Originally posted by EM: Martin, I'm less than 125 miles from you SSW and you will find that kind of conversation in our church, although many would see us as con evo with charismatic overtones.

Martin: EM, you CANNOT here. At all. You CANNOT in Warwickshire, Northamptonshire or Leicestershire. Not with ANYONE like-minded. And I can't see how one could in yours. One can in Waterloo.

Certainly there's some "magic" as you call it - there has to be if the Spirit is involved - but it isn't something which suspends credibility. It isn't freaky and jump about stuff, just a readiness to listen to God.

ANY claim of magic suspends credibility. By definition. Lack of magic, or at the very least open acceptance of challenge to it, facilitates the Spirit of truth. I ACCEPT that belief in magic goes hand in hand with CARE in a tiny minority, that the two are inextricably linked in most socially active, serving Christians. I see that all the time. Whilst seeing no magic at all. Magic is in the bias of the beholder. I tolerate invisible, unfelt, indetectable magic all around me for the privilege of serving, swimming in a tiny shoal calved off from a massive one awash with magic that has no social impact whatsoever, beyond people being marginally 'transformed' be their Jesus narrative. Magic comes with a MASSIVE opportunity cost that 99% prevents the church serving any others apart from itself.

We do care ....

Aye. 1%. Me too. Not that I AM the 1%. I care 1% by quantifying my time. YOU obviously fare MUCH better. As a professional? Or are you a tentmaker?

This morning for example I have followed up on
- installing curtain rails for a lady in a new house (Trafficked to the uk with her daughter)

- 2 people home from hospital

- 1 couple with the husband admitted ditto

- arrange a meeting with someone to reflect on their experience at a conferenece

- put together a paper to our church leaders to discuss how we support families abandoned by the government as the children's centre closed. Answer - we will let the groups have our premises for free

Spot on.

- discuss how CAP can work across churches to meet the needs of the 15% in this town who are struggling (20% of working people here are on living wage) etc etc

That's a start.

- arranged a visit this pm to see someone in a secure unit

I've done a couple of those. And many more psychiatric unit visits. Well done.

So it goes on and that's only a flavour of 3 hours work this morning. We are not anything special nor are we unique. Like most churches we are trying to build bridges by loving. The fact that some dislike our theology ain't my problem.

Exactly, beliefs are two a penny and the gospel is preached by action, not words. How much were you paid for that?

You can find plenty of conversations in Leicester, Martin. My daughter lives there.

What church? What church fellowship?

I'm getting a very uncomfortable feeling that the conversation will only take place if it meets all the criteria you want from it. Do we have the old combative Martin back with us?

He never went away mate. The only criteria I have for conversation is that there can be one. There CANNOT be with anyone like minded or any AT ALL in any of the fellowships I have experienced in the past 11 years except in our little, backward village church home and men's groups.

I LOVE our Friday night outreach to the dispossessed. I love the self-sacrificial young woman who runs it. ENTIRELY paternally-fraternally I assure you. She, literally, trusts me with her life. We took 9 of the guys abseiling, walking and canoeing in Derbyshire in June. I'm HORRIFIED at her theology - full monte PSA - and its actual sharp end impact. And I NEVER say a word. I was stricken by her trying to "evangelize" a broken Muslim guy (of which we get a constant stream) by telling him it had to be Jesus only NOW and Muhammad was nothing. Funnily enough he's not been back.

...
Emergent means all things to all people too. What's it emerging into and what's it emerging from?

Postmodernism. Modernism. And medievalism. And fundamentalism. And Tradition. And magical thinking. And patriachy. And imperialism. And castration. Babylon.

Most emerging theology is old liberalism repackaged - what was once called the social gospel, this time with a dash of liberation theology and a trace of mysticism.

You can't keep a great combination down. Especially when it comes from conservatives.

I'm rather jaundiced about emergent and "new" churches - as in this back yard they seem to be as self absorbed as anyone else. A major social upheaval has taken place here and the emergent groups for all their posturing on justice have done precisely nothing.

NOW you're talking! Say it brother, say it. Seriously. Although you have a massive blindspot to what Steve Chalke is doing just down the road from Banbury or up the road from Swindon.

And, of course, the peerless achievements of Saint Martin Luther, Dr. King, who stood on the shoulders of the social gospel giants of early C20th N. America.

He was worth his salt and then some.

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Posted                       

quote:

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Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Thanks - and I agree with EM about the celebrity thing not being restricted to any one tradition. I suppose there's always been an element of it and the whole Saint thing is connected to all that to some extent - although at least they're dead first ...

To an extent, I think we can't avoid it. The issue is how we handle it.

There are parallel issues in any form of human activity - from sport to horticulture. I

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Posted                       

quote:

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Originally posted by guthrum:
I recall witnessing a rehearsal at which various 'spontaneous' acts were practised. Those who would respond to an altar call knew where to sit to distribute them amongst the anticipated crowd', the group who would begin singing in tongues were placed at the front, etc etc. This was all reinterpreted after the event as simply making those the spirit moved feel more comfortable responding.

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Posted                       

quote:

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Originally posted by Gamaliel:
One of the disappointing things, I think, about Anglican charismatic evangelicals - and I'm speaking very bluntly and frankly here - is that whilst they certainly do have a degree of discernment, they are so desperate for 'results' - because of the national picture of overall decline - that they allow themselves to overlook or disregard certain harmful influences and practices that have percolated in from the wider charismatic scene.

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Posted                       

quote:

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Originally posted by Gamaliel:
I don't know EM, other than through his posts here, but my impression would be that in his particular charismatic evangelical setting things are more 'holistic' if you like and they have other and wider concerns - so the chances of EM's congregation going overboard on the latest charismatic fad and so on would, I think, be fairly remote.

One of the disappointing things, I think, about Anglican charismatic evangelicals - and I'm speaking very bluntly and frankly here - is that whilst they certainly do have a degree of discernment, they are so desperate for 'results' - because of the national picture of overall decline - that they allow themselves to overlook or disregard certain harmful influences and practices that have percolated in from the wider charismatic scene.

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Posted                       

quote:

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Originally posted by ExclamationMark:

quote:

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Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:

If 'emergent' is an undesirable term that's just because it's less well known than 'evangelical', even though evangelical itself means all things to all men.

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Emergent means all things to all people too. What's it emerging into and what's it emerging from?

Most emerging theology is old liberalism repackaged - what was once called the social gospel, this time with a dash of liberation theology and a trace of mysticism.

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quote:

---

I'm rather jaundiced about emergent and "new" churches - as in this back yard they seem to be as self absorbed as anyone else. A major social upheaval has taken place here and the emergent groups for all their posturing on justice have done precisely nothing.

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Posted                       

quote:

---

Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:

quote:

---

Originally posted by ExclamationMark:

quote:

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Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:

If 'emergent' is an undesirable term that's just because it's less well known than 'evangelical', even though evangelical itself means all things to all men.

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Emergent means all things to all people too. What's it emerging into and what's it emerging from?

Most emerging theology is old liberalism repackaged - what was once called the social gospel, this time with a dash of liberation theology and a trace of mysticism.

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But 'old liberalism repackaged' seems to be what a number of people, on the Ship and elsewhere, want. They want churches that are as energetic and appealing as the more familiar evangelical ones, while being more liberal regarding personal morality and probably also less strident on certain contentious doctrinal issues.

quote:

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I'm rather jaundiced about emergent and "new" churches - as in this back yard they seem to be as self absorbed as anyone else. A major social upheaval has taken place here and the emergent groups for all their posturing on justice have done precisely nothing.

---

Churches are socially conservative institutions largely patronised by amateurs and volunteers, so it's obviously going to take time to work out how to respond to 'major social upheavals'. Hopefully the new church movements will find their own way of getting involved eventually.

It's also the case, I think, that each kind of church will, or perhaps should, have its own strengths, just as each tends to attract a particular kind of demographic. Churches that don't have the right gifts, training or courage to do long-term work with refugees or the homeless, for example, might still be able to offer help with fundraising, perhaps. If there are good ecumenical links there should be something that the newer groups can be encouraged to contribute.

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Posted                       

quote:

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Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
I don't see many churches holding together a theology of suffering alongside a theology of healing: we do - I'd encourage others to explore it too. We find cause for celebration not in celebrity but in (say) a house for a trafficked lady whose daughter aged 11 now has her own bedroom for the first time ever. Just watch that smile! That's real healing.

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quote:

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One church used to have a sign outside it listing the regular meetings -- one meeting was billed as "Deliverance Ministry" by appointment on Tuesday Evening. I've always wondered what the demons got up to the rest of the time.

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Love it!!

[ 13. August 2016, 14:34: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]