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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Purgatory: Tony Anthony Complete EA Investigation and Report
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Mark Wuntoo
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# 5673
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
quote:
Originally posted by guthrum:
I recall witnessing a rehearsal at which various 'spontaneous' acts were practised. Those who would respond to an altar call knew where to sit to distribute them amongst the anticipated crowd', the group who would begin singing in tongues were placed at the front, etc etc. This was all reinterpreted after the event as simply making those the spirit moved feel more comfortable responding.
I had heard anecdotally of that kind of thing going on (and seen it played out in Steve Martin's film "Leap of Faith"). But I had never heard from anyone who'd seen it first hand, such as yourself, so thank you. There is no excuse whatsoever for that kind of thing and the deception dishonours God.
Took me right back to the 50's and Billy Graham. Councellors placed strategically so that when the 'appeal' was made they began walking forward, thus encouraging others to follow - thousands responding to Christ, or so it seemed. I acknowledge that there were good results. But it was manipulative.
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Blessed are the cracked for they let in the light.
Posts: 1950 | From: Somewhere else. | Registered: Mar 2004
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SvitlanaV2
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# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
I don't know why, for example, our church is growing except that God is doing it. There's no program - hopefully just love and a commitment to grow and learn together.
It might be a good idea (in your own time, not necessarily here) to try to identify how and why it's growing, so that you can give tangible advice to other interested church leaders; you imply that the other churches in the area are having problems, so I'd expect them to be interested in your experience if you can explain it. Also, if you have some awareness of the factors involved you might be able to tackle the changes if the growth ever slows down or reverses.
For example, most churches (in your area too) would claim to be about 'love and a commitment to grow and learn together' so what makes your church different, or different to God? When did the growth start, and what else was happening at around that time? There'll be sociological factors relevant to the congregation's success: history, social make-up, expertise, local area, age range, etc.
Well, just my thoughts, anyway.
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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chris stiles
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# 12641
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mark Wuntoo:
Took me right back to the 50's and Billy Graham. Councellors placed strategically so that when the 'appeal' was made they began walking forward, thus encouraging others to follow - thousands responding to Christ, or so it seemed.
You are missing the organ that repeatedly plays 'Just as I am' (accompanying the crying of the repentant to encourage more people to come forward).
Posts: 4035 | From: Berkshire | Registered: May 2007
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Gamaliel
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# 812
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Posted
@Baptist Trainman, no, it's not a particularly Anglican failing but EM has said it better than I can. I was, frankly, surprised and disappointed to hear some of the guff that New Wine puts out.
It's not that I hold the Anglicans to a higher standard of theological mouse and discernment than I would expect of the Baptists or any of the Free Churches - far from it - it&s more that I am surprised and disappointed to come across such shit in a church with as much longevity as the CofE and which ostensibly has some theological clout and produced some impressive thinkers and theologians of various stripes - evangelical, Anglo-Catholic and all points in between.
The more bollocky bits of New Wine wouldn't have passed muster back in the day in the charismatic 'new churches' and that is saying something.
However we cut it there's been declension.
My old mother-in-law has old copies of Renewal magazine going back to the mid-60s. The level of theological reflection was considerably higher in the early years than what came later. Flick through the issues and you can see it happening before your eyes.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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chris stiles
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# 12641
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
The more bollocky bits of New Wine wouldn't have passed muster back in the day in the charismatic 'new churches' and that is saying something.
However we cut it there's been declension.
Possibly, or perhaps these things are in the air and the NW crowd don't really have the background to evaluate these things. There is a certain middle class naivety dressed as politeness that one encounters IYSWIM, and perhaps the fact that that socioeconomic group has traditionally been very low-church in a cultural Christianity sort of way plays a part - people get too used to outsiurcing their thinking to a professional class.
Posts: 4035 | From: Berkshire | Registered: May 2007
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Baptist Trainfan
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# 15128
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
My old mother-in-law has old copies of Renewal magazine going back to the mid-60s. The level of theological reflection was considerably higher in the early years than what came later. Flick through the issues and you can see it happening before your eyes.
And, of course, for a while "Renewal" magazine even had an explicitly theological sidekick - that must have been in the mid-1970s.
Tom Smail recalls an incident in the very early days of Renewal (?late 1950s) when he was meeting with Baptist and Pentecostal colleagues in Scotland. Having been brought up in an orthodox but somewhat academic Reformed tradition, he found renewal liberating and wanted to "go light" on theology. But the Pentecostal minister reproved him and told him that the new movement would need his "good theology" - how right he was!
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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Baptist Trainfan
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# 15128
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Posted
There is an interesting critique of Smail's theology by Nigel Wright (my old New Testament theology tutor!) in this 1996 article.
Please note Wright's comment near the end: "Likewise, if the Charismatic movement captures something of a genuine experience of God ... it ought to be a hallmark of that movement that innovative theological reflection will follow".
But I think we have left Mr. Anthony and his misdeeds behind us ...
[ 14. August 2016, 07:05: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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Martin60
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# 368
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Posted
Orginally posted by ExclamationMark: A lot to reply to but here's a few
1. My daughter doesn't attend a church. That doesn't stop her being involved in the conversations you mention with people who are church goers and who do have the conversations and do the walk. She works in a pretty challenging environment where questions of life and death and suffering are hourly issues.
Martin: Exactly, it can't be done in Charismatic (fundamentalist, damnationist, legalistic, UNtranscendent, trajectory-less) fellowship. As was demonstrated again for me last night.
2. I know Northamptonshire pretty well. There are several churches to my personal knowledge across number of denominations where the things you mention are happening even as we speak.
SSE of me and my former county of residence for ooooh, 20 years. The things I mention? Like, as in analogous to, the Hope Centre? Yeah, I've picked shit off the floor there. Literally. Stopped the odd fight. Don't worry, no one would remember me, it was years ago. There was a lovely Roman Catholic chap, Richard, who served without restraint and an old girl before his time I recall. Then there's Bugbrook of course. Saw Noel at the disused cinema on a Sunday Bonfire Night about 12 years ago. A VAST disappointment. Mandatory tongues at baptism. Very sad.
3. I also know Banbury (sort of) and Swindon (passing acquaintance with Christian friends there). I've not heard of Steve Chalke in those parts - whats he doing there according to what you know? Yep irl I don't happen to see well at all, but spiritually I think I'd have heard from my mates or at first hand what Chalke doing around Banbury and/or Swindon. Please enlighten me - I am actually interested to know.
Well they are the only SSW communites of any size within 125 miles of Leicester. Oasis isn't operating on those areas. It may be educationally. But down the road from Banbury, or up the road from Swindon, is Waterloo. An hour away from either.
Again even in London or elsewhere what Steve Chalke is doing is not unique only in the combination he does it in.
That's unique. Including his full inclusion of the LGBT community. You don't get kicked out of the EA for nothing.
4. The only magic is what the Spirit does. It isn't magic it is trusting God. No wacky ideas, prophecies or celebrities here - just opening the bible and linking our faith and our walking (living) by discussing and exploring together.
What magic is that? That isn't? Trusting God how? In what? And by the way EM, I see that you are trying: No wacky ideas, prophecies or celebrities. That's good. I mean that's VERY good. No wacky ideas excludes a VAST amount. People believe the ghastliest of things. No wacky (that's redundant admittedly) prophecies and wacky celebrities. Excellent.
Martin, I feel you are deliberately playing on this one.
Your feelings aren't wrong. And your point is?
Do you honestly believe that there's no transcendence at all? How do you then explain the work of the slum anglo catholic parishes?
Sorry? Why do you ask? Your premiss is that something transcendent is going on because Christians function in groups and actually go out to the highways and byways, go under the hedges and serve people? I'd agree. It's wonderful. No matter how wacky our ideas, how appalling our beliefs, our 'theologies', good is done. Despite our bizarre narratives. If only it could be done for its own sake. God has a funny sense of humour that's for sure.
5. I'm not a tentmaker. I happen to be a recognised minister - although I believe we're all that and I just happen to be paid to serve 24/7 through the church. I'd be interested for your view on what denomination and/or group you think I'm part of.
No idea. Not Roman Catholic, Orthodox certainly, not Anglican most probably, definitely not Quaker! Not Methodist, never heard of charismatic Methodism. Charismatic Baptists in the east of the county yes. At the deep and sharp end. A most disturbing aversion therapy.
I happen to have done a few other things in life - I'm probably one of the few ministers who came from a council estate and worked as a labourer. I have university level qualifications - pretty unusual for people from my background - and spent 17 years as a Building Society employee. So yes, I've seen a bit of life from a number of perspectives - but in each time/place I've looked to be more than 1% for God and others. What i do now is only a continuation of what I've always done and I find it thoroughly compatible with a con - evo - charis framework: that is the essence of seeking his Kingdom (work) and his righteousness (actions).
Your rounding, roundedness shows. And NO I'm not being sarcastic. I'm from a council estate till age 12 and for many years I was a labourer, blast furnace operator, McDonald's worker, progress chaser, cleaner (including toilet), council clerk, cold store worker (your breath rains as ice), due to cultic religion in large part.
There are other shows in town that serve the poor of course, the Sikh community is astoundingly generous. The and the Hindu and Muslim communities have been also overflowing to 'our' community needs.
I can't see any difference between work and action. I'll be glad when it comes with no agenda, no absurd desperation to 'save' anyone from Hellfire. When it's just done for its own sake. Christians certainly have more reason than any to be open handedly, radically, self-sacrificially, inclusively, freely kind.
6. I'm not 1% now either. IME in this neck of the woods the commitment is much greater ... and this is allegedly a problem town.
Aye, you're a professional, so one would expect more than 1%. 1% is nearly two hours a week, that's the average for people with normal responsibilities. There's an awesome development in the Netherlands where students get free accommodation if the give 30 hours community service, to the elderly they share with, a month. 4%. Fantastic.
7. As regards the payment for the first 3 hours of the day it would work out below minimum wage if you divide income by hours. I do, though, get the feeling that your comment was a sarcastic one - you do know better than that.
I see paid clergy living in spectacular houses, living very privileged lives and promulgating unchallengable magic. I mean really pathetic stuff in big, rich, mainstream, supposedly via media church. I'm glad you're not part of that. Nobody's legs changing length in your fellowship and that being announced in services. No strong arm manipulation. As in stand up everyone who's been miraculously healed. Stand up everyone who knows somebody who has. Stand up ... I was the only person out of 400 who didn't. THAT got a letter. As you said formerly EM, I must be out of step.
8. There's nothing new in emergent which makes it a very hypocritical movement in some ways as it always seeks to claim to be "a new thing." It's far from that. Some of us have memories!
I hear conservatives proclaiming new wine all the time. Too rich for my old wineskin admittedly. I've not heard or read any such claim by any under the emergent rainbow. Not since Jesus. There is nothing new under its trajectory.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
Martin60
Two ideas occur to me.
1. Have you considered getting in touch with Oasis and discussing the possibility of helping to set up an Oasis fellowship in your area?
2. If you spend time with the Methodist-Baptist LEP you could discuss with the minister the possibility of setting up a connected Fresh Expression of church on the liberal and socially engaged lines that you have in mind.
In your engagement with the dispossessed, have you found that any of these people share your theology, and that they want to be involved in the kind of church you dream about? If so then you already have the nucleus of a fellowship of people who could help each other and could be nurtured to help others.
It wouldn't be big ministry in a big church, but everything has to start somewhere. And whereas big churches are unlikely to risk their success and their ethos for one man's ideas, smaller, humbler churches may be willing to try something different.
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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Mark Wuntoo
Shipmate
# 5673
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by chris stiles:
quote:
Originally posted by Mark Wuntoo:
Took me right back to the 50's and Billy Graham. Councellors placed strategically so that when the 'appeal' was made they began walking forward, thus encouraging others to follow - thousands responding to Christ, or so it seemed.
You are missing the organ that repeatedly plays 'Just as I am' (accompanying the crying of the repentant to encourage more people to come forward).
Ah, yes, the power of music (and not just the 45 minutes on your feet at the start of a charismatic meeting). I have to hold my hand up - I was a little manipulative this morning from the seat of my keyboard. ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif) Good organists are aware of what they hold in their fingers.
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Blessed are the cracked for they let in the light.
Posts: 1950 | From: Somewhere else. | Registered: Mar 2004
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ExclamationMark
Shipmate
# 14715
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
Orginally posted by ExclamationMark: A lot to reply to but here's a few
I hear conservatives proclaiming new wine all the time. Too rich for my old wineskin admittedly. I've not heard or read any such claim by any under the emergent rainbow. Not since Jesus. There is nothing new under its trajectory. [/i]
Too much to respond to in one go - and your PM box is full.
I'm intrigued by what denomination you have me under. As it happens I work in a number of ways across denominations in partnership with other churches and parachurch set ups (homeless, CAP, Youth for Christ, Childrens' Centres) as well as within my own denomination.
I'll e mail you with more
Posts: 3845 | From: A new Jerusalem | Registered: Apr 2009
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Martin60
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# 368
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Posted
There's space now EM. As for what denomination; Baptist, Free Church, Congregational, United Reformed, Pentecostal: non establishment reformed. I've probably missed yours!
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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mdijon
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# 8520
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Posted
It's a good guessing game.
- Baptist.
Could be, but posts here might suggest a bit more emphasis on action than the average baptist. - Free Church
Probably not - posting suggest less fluidity of view and slightly stronger polity than is common in a free church. - Congregational
Not in England. - United Reformed
Yes possible - the combination of action and calmness on polity is very united reformed for my money. - Pentecostal
No hint of pentecostal sparkiness here. - Brethren
I think less likely but just possible - but too much emphasis on action for that. - Salvation Army
Again possible, but the brand is so distinctive it usually comes through explicitly in the posting at some point so unlikely. - Quacker
Not enough fluidity of views indicated thus far.
Do I win a toaster?
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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon
Posts: 12277 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2004
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Baptist Trainfan
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# 15128
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Posted
I'm not sure - I wonder if you are stereotyping too much (for instance my church, with robed choir and liturgical prayers, is hardly your average Baptist church). And, by the way, there are Congregational churches in England - not all joined the URC by any means.
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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Martin60
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# 368
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Posted
Qua[c]ker, EM's critical to them.
"Congregational - Not in England.", meaning not socially active here?
Yeah, I met a VERY nice, very socially active URC minister 5 years ago. Stymied by his congregation, he emigrated to Oz where they're desperate.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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mdijon
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# 8520
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Posted
I didn't know that about Congregational. As to stereotyping too much... absolutely the case!
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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon
Posts: 12277 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2004
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mdijon
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# 8520
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Posted
Just to clarify - I meant what BT thought I meant, that they had all become URC. In which case I would put it back in the frame of possibilities.
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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon
Posts: 12277 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2004
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Martin60
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# 368
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Posted
There's a Congregational church 400 yds from where I live, so I assumed you meant that they didn't get involved, not that they didn't exist in England.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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